Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Thiza: 11:22am On Jul 12, 2014 |
PHOTOS DONT LIE 1 Like
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Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Thiza: 11:23am On Jul 12, 2014 |
SOUTH AFRICAN ARMY IS NOT A CHEAP ARMY 1 Like
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Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by patches689: 11:32am On Jul 12, 2014 |
Thiza: THIS IS PROFESSIONALISM AT IT BEST That second pic... the mass chopper flypast is one of my favorites.
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Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by patches689: 11:45am On Jul 12, 2014 |
Guys, could we stop the dick measuring for one second. I want to hear legit opinions from all members.... why did the Mangusta beat the Rooivalk for the Turkish trails? yes, the rooivalk is slower But the rooivalk has a longer operational range and a bigger payload and a higher service ceiling but is less agile (rate of climb) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_helicopter#PerformanceThe rooivalk carries more ammo for the same caliber pintle-mounted weapon (20mm) The rooivalk can carry more ATGM's (16 v ![cool](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/cool.png) The rooivalk comes with the Mokopa which is superior to the AGM-114 "Hellfire" (longer range, better penetration with the same seeker - millimeter band radar) And dont talk about the combat suite... as the Turkish deal would have financed the Rooivalk lite with the new combat suite and ground search radar I can only speculate that political influence or obscure doctrinal needs* were the influence *maybe the turks wanted more of a recon orientated attack helicopter, but then they would have chosen the Tiger as it is the best the west has to offer in terms of a long range recon orientated attack helo I know augugbgugug will shitpost... but I wanna hear from the rest of the forum (not only south africans)
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Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by agaugust: 12:07pm On Jul 12, 2014 |
Thiza: @AUGUSTUS HAS RAN OUT OF IDEAS AND ARGUMENTS AND NOW HAS RESOLTED INTO BORROWING PHOTOS OF THE OUTMOST RAG TAG ARMIES...PLS RESPECT SOUTH AFRICANS AND BRING IN PROFESSIONAL AND COMPETENT ARMIES....OR IS IT NAIRA NOT WORTH THE SALT? This forum is for all African military forces, not only Nigeria and South Africa. So I posted Eritrea. Eritrea has the best infantry soldiers in Africa according to some military analysts. Eritrea has defeated mighty Ethiopia in many battles. South Africa CANNOT defeat Ethiopia, so how will SANDF defeat the great Eritrean warriors. Military don't win war according to shiny photos and nice uniforms, good clothes don't k.ill, bullets do the job. Eritrea has experience of 4th generation jet fighter combat with BVR missiles, South African Gripen jets pilots have ZERO combat experience with their Gripen, or with a 4tH generation jet fighter, and NO SINGLE BVR missile on SAAF Gripen jets. Eritrea has an army of 250,000 men and they will completely surround and delete SANDF 50,000 men tiny army. Eritrea fought one of Africa's biggest wars with hundreds of thousands of troops, tanks, artillery, jet fighters, etc, recently up to year 2000 as one of the most modern and biggest conventional wars in the world. Soldiers that died alone are over 100,000 dead, not the children playground Seleka Vs SANDF battle where about 250 soldiers died. Eritrean women alone will defeat the whole South African army http://mereja.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70217Eritrea will wipe out SAAF in 5 minutes with BVR missiles at distant range, their army will then circle around SANDF and choke your fine looking army in the centre until all your men are d.ead and all your big b.ottom women are captured alive and taken to Eritrean bedrooms for 'detailed examination' by wild Eritrean men in their capital city of Asmara. PHOTOS : ERITREAN ARMY CAN DRESS UP IN FINE CLOTHES IF THE WITH TO, BUT THEY PREFER TO DRESS LIKE WILD WARRIORS.
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Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by MikeZA: 12:07pm On Jul 12, 2014 |
patches689: Guys, could we stop the dick measuring for one second.
I want to hear legit opinions from all members.... why did the Mangusta beat the Rooivalk for the Turkish trails?
yes, the rooivalk is slower
But the rooivalk has a longer operational range
and a bigger payload
and a higher service ceiling
but is less agile (rate of climb) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_helicopter#Performance
The rooivalk carries more ammo for the same caliber pintle-mounted weapon (20mm)
The rooivalk can carry more ATGM's (16 v ![cool](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/cool.png)
The rooivalk comes with the Mokopa which is superior to the AGM-114 "Hellfire" (longer range, better penetration with the same seeker - millimeter band radar)
And dont talk about the combat suite... as the Turkish deal would have financed the Rooivalk lite with the new combat suite and ground search radar
I can only speculate that political influence or obscure doctrinal needs* were the influence
*maybe the turks wanted more of a recon orientated attack helicopter, but then they would have chosen the Tiger as it is the best the west has to offer in terms of a long range recon orientated attack helo
I know augugbgugug will shitpost... but I wanna hear from the rest of the forum (not only south africans) It isn't really known why. But speaking to some okes knowledgeable about the process,some claim Denel had to negotiate like right now new contracts with foreign suppliers. Also again the Rooivalk wasn't operational. The late 90s Asian financial crisis also dealt a major blow to the project,which forced Malaysia to abandoned plans to get the Rooivalk. During that time plans were already in motion for the development of a radar similar to the Apache's long bow. Operational use raises interest and possibly sales. Look at Israel weapon sales in 2009 and 2012. |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by patches689: 12:17pm On Jul 12, 2014 |
agaugust:
This forum is for all African military forces, not only Nigeria and South Africa. So I posted Eritrea.
Eritrea has the best infantry soldiers in Africa according to some military analysts. Eritrea has defeated mighty Ethiopia in many battles.
South Africa CANNOT defeat Ethiopia, so how will SANDF defeat the great Eritrean warriors.
Military don't win war according to shiny photos and nice uniforms, good clothes don't k.ill, bullets do the job.
Eritrea has experience of 4th generation jet fighter combat with BVR missiles, South African Gripen jets pilots have ZERO combat experience with their Gripen, or with a 4tH generation jet fighter, and NO SINGLE BVR missile on SAAF Gripen jets.
Eritrea has an army of 250,000 men and they will completely surround and delete SANDF 50,000 men tiny army.
Eritrea fought one of Africa's biggest wars with hundreds of thousands of troops, tanks, artillery, jet fighters, etc, recently up to year 2000 as one of the most modern and biggest conventional wars in the world. Soldiers that died alone are over 100,000 dead, not the children playground Seleka Vs SANDF battle where about 250 soldiers died.
Eritrean women alone will defeat the whole South African army http://mereja.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70217
Eritrea will wipe out SAAF in 5 minutes with BVR missiles at distant range, their army will then circle around SANDF and choke your fine looking army in the centre until all your men are d.ead and all your big b.ottom women are captured alive and taken to Eritrean bedrooms for 'detailed examination' by wild Eritrean men in their capital city of Asmara.
PHOTOS : ERITREAN ARMY CAN DRESS UP IN FINE CLOTHES IF THE WITH TO, BUT THEY PREFER TO DRESS LIKE WILD WARRIORS.
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Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by MikeZA: 12:18pm On Jul 12, 2014 |
patches689: Guys, could we stop the dick measuring for one second.
I want to hear legit opinions from all members.... why did the Mangusta beat the Rooivalk for the Turkish trails?
yes, the rooivalk is slower
But the rooivalk has a longer operational range
and a bigger payload
and a higher service ceiling
but is less agile (rate of climb) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_helicopter#Performance
The rooivalk carries more ammo for the same caliber pintle-mounted weapon (20mm)
The rooivalk can carry more ATGM's (16 v ![cool](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/cool.png)
The rooivalk comes with the Mokopa which is superior to the AGM-114 "Hellfire" (longer range, better penetration with the same seeker - millimeter band radar)
And dont talk about the combat suite... as the Turkish deal would have financed the Rooivalk lite with the new combat suite and ground search radar
I can only speculate that political influence or obscure doctrinal needs* were the influence
*maybe the turks wanted more of a recon orientated attack helicopter, but then they would have chosen the Tiger as it is the best the west has to offer in terms of a long range recon orientated attack helo
I know augugbgugug will shitpost... but I wanna hear from the rest of the forum (not only south africans) 1 one more: It was many factors that distributed to the Rooivalk not making sales. 1. Defence cuts after the Bush war. 2. Contracts. 3...............etc |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Thiza: 1:18pm On Jul 12, 2014 |
SANDF
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Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Thiza: 1:32pm On Jul 12, 2014 |
SOUTH AFRICAN AIRFORCE
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Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by FighterPilot(m): 6:29pm On Jul 12, 2014 |
agaugust:
This forum is for all African military forces, not only Nigeria and South Africa. So I posted Eritrea.
Eritrea has the best infantry soldiers in Africa according to some military analysts. Eritrea has defeated mighty Ethiopia in many battles.
South Africa CANNOT defeat Ethiopia, so how will SANDF defeat the great Eritrean warriors.
Military don't win war according to shiny photos and nice uniforms, good clothes don't k.ill, bullets do the job.
Eritrea has experience of 4th generation jet fighter combat with BVR missiles, South African Gripen jets pilots have ZERO combat experience with their Gripen, or with a 4tH generation jet fighter, and NO SINGLE BVR missile on SAAF Gripen jets.
Eritrea has an army of 250,000 men and they will completely surround and delete SANDF 50,000 men tiny army.
Eritrea fought one of Africa's biggest wars with hundreds of thousands of troops, tanks, artillery, jet fighters, etc, recently up to year 2000 as one of the most modern and biggest conventional wars in the world. Soldiers that died alone are over 100,000 dead, not the children playground Seleka Vs SANDF battle where about 250 soldiers died.
Eritrean women alone will defeat the whole South African army http://mereja.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70217
Eritrea will wipe out SAAF in 5 minutes with BVR missiles at distant range, their army will then circle around SANDF and choke your fine looking army in the centre until all your men are d.ead and all your big b.ottom women are captured alive and taken to Eritrean bedrooms for 'detailed examination' by wild Eritrean men in their capital city of Asmara.
PHOTOS : ERITREAN ARMY CAN DRESS UP IN FINE CLOTHES IF THE WITH TO, BUT THEY PREFER TO DRESS LIKE WILD WARRIORS. We will delete both Ethiopia and Eritrea combined together. SA is well and more armed than both contries. It doesn't matter how physically strong you may be, but if you fail to possess the right weapon at the right time you will bounce. SA has equipment my friend. |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by agaugust: 7:45pm On Jul 12, 2014 |
MikeZA: 1 one more: It was many factors that distributed to the Rooivalk not making sales. 1. Defence cuts after the Bush war. 2. Contracts. 3...............etc [size=14pt]Rooivalk helicopter is an over-rated piece of obsolescent half-french metal junk called helicopter gunship. It barks more than it can bite. About 20 years since project started, no single export customer, every country that has a wise air force runs away from Rooivalk fat-turkey, the helo has no combat history execpt against a handful of rebles who have no radar and no anti-aircraft missile. DENEL makes a lot of false claims about the Rooivalk, e.g. the Nap Of Earth low level flight capability system is a fraud and failure, the last time South African air force tried low level Rooivalk flight, it crashed into electricity wires in broad daylight, once an attack helicopter fails the low level combat test, it becomes useless. Rooivalk helicopter remains useless to all air forces in the world, so they buy other helos. Only 11 units of Rooivalk exist since about 20 years of introduction. The body/airframe design already looks out-dated for a $ 40 million flying machine ! Roovalks remains a largely untested helicopter, maybe a bit rebel-worthy, but Mi-35 Hinds fought alongside the Rooivalk in all it's combat operations. So the Rooivalk has NEVER been tested in combat alone. The UN force in Congo was afraid of letting the Rooivalk fly to combat without help from the Mi-35 Hind which were flown by Ukraine and India in Congo DRC theatre. Does anybody have money to waste? Go buy Rooivalk helicopter...it has no future, it is a dead end. CASE CLOSED ![grin](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/grin.png) PHOTO: ROOIVALK HELICOPTER OF SANDF, OUT-DATED BODY DESIGN, OVER-RATED PEFORMANCE[/size] 1 Like
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Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by FighterPilot(m): 7:59pm On Jul 12, 2014 |
The best gunship in the world:
ROOIVALK (SOUTH AFRIKA)
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Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by MikeZA: 8:46pm On Jul 12, 2014 |
agaugust:
[size=14pt]Rooivalk helicopter is an over-rated piece of obsolescent half-french metal junk called helicopter gunship. It barks more than it can bite. About 20 years since project started, no single export customer, every country that has a wise air force runs away from Rooivalk fat-turkey, the helo has no combat history execpt against a handful of rebles who have no radar and no anti-aircraft missile.
DENEL makes a lot of false claims about the Rooivalk, e.g. the Nap Of Earth low level flight capability system is a fraud and failure, the last time South African air force tried low level Rooivalk flight, it crashed into electricity wires in broad daylight, once an attack helicopter fails the low level combat test, it becomes useless.
Rooivalk helicopter remains useless to all air forces in the world, so they buy other helos. Only 11 units of Rooivalk exist since about 20 years of introduction. The body/airframe design already looks out-dated for a $ 40 million flying machine !
Roovalks remains a largely untested helicopter, maybe a bit rebel-worthy, but Mi-35 Hinds fought alongside the Rooivalk in all it's combat operations. So the Rooivalk has NEVER been tested in combat alone. The UN force in Congo was afraid of letting the Rooivalk fly to combat without help from the Mi-35 Hind which were flown by Ukraine and India in Congo DRC theatre.
Does anybody have money to waste? Go buy Rooivalk helicopter...it has no future, it is a dead end.
CASE CLOSED ![grin](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/grin.png)
PHOTO: ROOIVALK HELICOPTER OF SANDF, OUT-DATED BODY DESIGN, OVER-RATED PEFORMANCE[/size]
You don't know what you're talking about. Pathetic. You don't even know where battles where fought in the DRC. But you've nerve to speak out by operations there. Exports don't indicate how effective an weapon system is. The Hinds in the DRC were ineffective during the battle of Kibati,when guided by SA recces to strike supply lines from Rwanda. Your hinds couldn't even find targets. Go find information about SA mortar teams during that battle. Fighting alongside a SA trained battalion led by the late legendary Colonel Ndala whom was SA trained too. |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by MikeZA: 8:57pm On Jul 12, 2014 |
NOE is doctrine in the SAAF. Developed from our extensive use of helicopters in the African battle space. Most air forces in Africa are still yet to develop that doctrine. The MI-24/35 lacks the "hot&high" capability which needed when operating in Africa,SAAF stopped using the Super Frelons cause of this. The Rooivalk augubugubu is talking about had a little accident,and hit power lines. All this was during the OT&E(operational test and evaluation) of the helicopters. But aircraft in question was fixed and today is still taking to air. You hit power lines because you're flying around 5m to 7m metres above ground. Nigeria is ill experience when it comes to operating jets and helicopters. 2 Likes |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by NaijaPikinGidi: 12:18am On Jul 13, 2014 |
1 Like |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Helghast: 12:58am On Jul 13, 2014 |
NaijaPikinGidi:
Very lame argument. Hollywood army is exactly what your SANDF is. Why hire photographers? Simply to embellish and make your gullible minds think that all is perfect in an Army that has fought no wars in recent history! The few images of the NA operations are REAL first-hand glimpses into the gallant work of our soldiers!
It is not about the choreographed quality of photos, it's about the SERIOUSNESS of the story in each image/photo. SERIOUSNESS really now?? Is that the word you've chosen to describe that crap you've been showing us? Have you and I been looking looking at the same N.A photos? |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by agaugust: 1:04am On Jul 13, 2014 |
NaijaPikinGidi:
Stupidity runs high in your bloodstream! ![cool](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/cool.png)
I am personally aware of the directive. Sadly enough, you have failed to read the official explanation by your SANDF top brass. Read the report slowly. The last few paragraphs are instructive. ![cool](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/cool.png)
================ http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-south-africa/sandf-faces-r11bn-remuneration-budget-shortfall [size=14pt] Small signs of Big Weakness In SANDF [/size] Moneyweb News South Africa 09 July 2014 15:17 [size=14pt] SANDF faces R1.1bn remuneration budget shortfall[/size] Shortfall to affect performance of future deployments. The SA National Defence Force (SANDF) is facing a remuneration budget shortfall of over a billion rand, secretary of defence Sam Gulube said on Wednesday.Briefing Parliament's defence portfolio committee, Gulube said various measures were being put in place so that the shortfall did not affect the country's armed forces. "For the remuneration of employees we are at about a R1.1 billion shortfall right now and every month we are going to see how are we doing in terms of reducing that shortfall and at the end of the year, definitely, I'll have to balance the books," Gulube said on the sidelines of the briefing. The shortfall would affect performance of future deployments, but would not mean soldiers would stop being paid. "Right now when you talk about deployments you do on the border, you don't just think about the deployments that are done physically, but you have to think about the companies that have to be there on reserve because they need to take a break. They can't be there forever," Gulube said. "At any given time you want to have people who are in the training, people who are in rotation - meaning they are in a rest period, and then people who are in deployment." The SANDF would have to extend the hours of soldiers currently deployed within and outside the country's borders in order to reduce the shortfall. "There were times when... the rotations were three months. Now they are six months and we are looking at extending that... to one year for the external deployments," Gulube said. It would be cheaper to keep soldiers deployed than to have them relieved by other troops through rotation. Gulube said the fallout from the shortfall was not affecting morale at this stage. "Amazingly the morale in the deployed forces has been quite high. Everybody, most of the young members of the defence force, they are always looking forward to using the skills that they developed towards deployments, towards engagement," he said. "Those that get into difficulties with morale and passion, will be those who are left behind in supporting roles rather than those who are deployed." Gulube said various systems were being put in place to reduce the shortfall. "When posts are vacant we don't fill them. We encourage people to take voluntary exit mechanisms and also we are looking at the attrition rate." http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-south-africa/sandf-faces-r11bn-remuneration-budget-shortfall |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Helghast: 1:25am On Jul 13, 2014 |
NaijaPikinGidi:
Very lame argument. Hollywood army is exactly what your SANDF is. Why hire photographers? Simply to embellish and make your gullible minds think that all is perfect in an Army that has fought no wars in recent history! The few images of the NA operations are REAL first-hand glimpses into the gallant work of our soldiers!
It is not about the choreographed quality of photos, it's about the SERIOUSNESS of the story in each image/photo. SERIOUSNESS really now?? Is that the word you've chosen to describe that crap you've been showing us? Have you and I been looking looking at the same N.A photos? No matter how serious you can look in a photo it depend on what you can bring to the table that counts. you keeps saying that S.A soldiers have only done training, you remind me of one the many books I've read about the Vietnam war, and one guy wrote that "if you believe in yourself and have trust in your commanding officer and your team, any man can become a great soldier, believe in yourself and in your skill, and training will kick in when you need it the most". That's why most countries concentrate on training, your soldiers spend six month in training which is complete B.S and that's why they can't do s'hit right This is a pic that makes you think and shows realism
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Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by agaugust: 5:57am On Jul 13, 2014 |
Helghast:
SERIOUSNESS really now?? Is that the word you've chosen to describe that crap you've been showing us? Have you and I been looking looking at the same N.A photos? No matter how serious you can look in a photo it depend on what you can bring to the table that counts.
you keeps saying that S.A soldiers have only done training, you remind me of one the many books I've read about the Vietnam war, and one guy wrote that "if you believe in yourself and have trust in your commanding officer and your team, any man can become a great soldier, believe in yourself and in your skill, and training will kick in when you need it the most". That's why most countries concentrate on training, your soldiers spend six month in training which is complete B.S and that's why they can't do s'hit right
This is a pic that makes you think and shows realism The South African Recces are 99% dead, retired, ran away overseas, or too old to fight. The real ones with combat experience are NOT the SANDF, they are the old time apartheid regime SADF in an era gone by and now history. Today, 95% of South African army men and equipment have zero combat experience, 99% of South African air force has zero combat experience, while 100% of your expensive navy men and equipment have zero combat experience. South African military is like a team of footballers who spent all their lives in training under a coach, but NEVER engage in any football competition with a real opponent to test their real capability...get it ? ![tongue](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/tongue.png) . |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by agaugust: 6:05am On Jul 13, 2014 |
. [size=16pt] South African Soldiers are poorly tained...United Nations complains. SANDF trained by Brigadier-General who cheated to pass military exams Fancy SANDF photos you see here are deceptions from a rag tag unprofessional army dressed in nice uniforms [/size] UN lambasts discipline of South Africa’s poorly trained’ troops. The officer in charge of training soldiers for deployment to the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) is an exam cheat. And in another embarrassment for the SA National Defence Force (SANDF), a top UN official sharply criticised the discipline and combat readiness of South African soldiers in Sudan in a recent letter. Brigadier-General Sithabiso Mahlobo, who was found guilty in 2002 of cheating in exams, is in charge of the training of soldiers who are in the process of being deployed to the war-torn North Kivu province of the DRC.He is the commander of 46 SA Brigade in Kengray, Joburg. Mahlobo confirmed to City Press’ sister newspaper, Rapport, that he is responsible for training soldiers who will join the neutral international force (NIF) to fight the notorious M23 rebels in the DRC. The NIF is a joint operation of the UN and the Southern African Development Community. Mahlobo was demoted from general to major in 2002 after he was found to have cheated in a military exam by copying from another candidate.Despite this, he again progressed through the ranks and was promoted to brigadier-general in 2008. He then took over 46 SA Brigade. According to military expert Helmoed-Römer Heitman, no officer who has been found guilty of an offence like cheating in examinations should train other soldiers. In an unrelated development, it has been revealed that a top SANDF commander refused to receive extra training for South African soldiers on duty in Sudan. In a classified letter, Lieutenant-Colonel T Mashalaba, the commander of an infantry battalion of the SANDF, which was until recently deployed in the troubled Darfur region in Sudan, flatly refused to allow his soldiers to receive training from the UN and the African Union (AU) after one of his soldiers died in an ambush last year. Mashalaba was in command of the 10 SA Infantry Battalion when Rifleman Vincent van der Walt (23) died in the ambush in October. Two other South African soldiers were wounded in the attack. They were stationed at the combined mission of the AU and UN (Unamid) in Darfur. A UN official in Sudan reliably told City Press that Mashalaba was already on thin ice prior to this incident after ignoring an order to deploy his troops to a refugee camp. A woman was apparently abducted on August 15 as a result. Mashalaba allegedly also tried to halt the inquiry into the ambush in October. “He involved himself personally in the inquiry and tried to halt it despite direct orders to cooperate,” the UN official said. A letter from a senior Unamid official, in which the quality of South African soldiers’ training was sharply criticised, had been distributed among senior South African army officers just more than a month ago. The letter, which was apparently also sent to top officials at the UN headquarters in New York, mentions the soldiers’ lack of discipline and their arrogance. The Zuma link In 2010 the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) controversially awarded two oil concessions in the east of the country to President Jacob Zuma’s nephew, Khulubuse (pictured left). The rights were originally awarded to Irish oil company Tullow and South Africa’s Divine Inspiration Group in 2006, but “reassigned” to two Khulubuse Zuma companies, Caprikat and Foxwhelp, which are registered in the British Virgin Islands. The oil blocks are in Lake Albert in the east of the DRC on the border with Uganda. In January last year, British oil industry watchdog Platform London reported that Zuma’s companies had begun exploration activities. In 2010 Mark Willcox, chief executive of Human Settlements Minister Tokyo Sexwale’s Mvelaphanda Holdings, confirmed to the Mail & Guardian that they were giving “strategic advice” to Khulubuse Zuma. Mvela signed two mining deals in the eastern DRC in 2004 relating to the Kilomoto gold project and the Ruashi copper-and-cobalt project. Reuters reported that Khulubuse Zuma signed the deal with the DRC government on behalf of Caprikat and that Michael Hulley, President Zuma’s lawyer and legal adviser, signed the Foxwhelp deal. - Pieter-Louis Myburgh http://www.citypress.co.za/news/exam-cheat-is-training-army/.
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Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by FighterPilot(m): 7:11am On Jul 13, 2014 |
agaugust: . [size=16pt] South African Soldiers are poorly tained...United Nations complains. SANDF trained by Brigadier-General who cheated to pass military exams Fancy SANDF photos you see here are deceptions from a rag tag unprofessional army dressed in nice uniforms [/size] UN lambasts discipline of South Africa’s poorly trained’ troops. The officer in charge of training soldiers for deployment to the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) is an exam cheat. And in another embarrassment for the SA National Defence Force (SANDF), a top UN official sharply criticised the discipline and combat readiness of South African soldiers in Sudan in a recent letter.
Brigadier-General Sithabiso Mahlobo, who was found guilty in 2002 of cheating in exams, is in charge of the training of soldiers who are in the process of being deployed to the war-torn North Kivu province of the DRC. He is the commander of 46 SA Brigade in Kengray, Joburg. Mahlobo confirmed to City Press’ sister newspaper, Rapport, that he is responsible for training soldiers who will join the neutral international force (NIF) to fight the notorious M23 rebels in the DRC. The NIF is a joint operation of the UN and the Southern African Development Community.
Mahlobo was demoted from general to major in 2002 after he was found to have cheated in a military exam by copying from another candidate. Despite this, he again progressed through the ranks and was promoted to brigadier-general in 2008. He then took over 46 SA Brigade. According to military expert Helmoed-Römer Heitman, no officer who has been found guilty of an offence like cheating in examinations should train other soldiers. In an unrelated development, it has been revealed that a top SANDF commander refused to receive extra training for South African soldiers on duty in Sudan. In a classified letter, Lieutenant-Colonel T Mashalaba, the commander of an infantry battalion of the SANDF, which was until recently deployed in the troubled Darfur region in Sudan, flatly refused to allow his soldiers to receive training from the UN and the African Union (AU) after one of his soldiers died in an ambush last year. Mashalaba was in command of the 10 SA Infantry Battalion when Rifleman Vincent van der Walt (23) died in the ambush in October. Two other South African soldiers were wounded in the attack. They were stationed at the combined mission of the AU and UN (Unamid) in Darfur. A UN official in Sudan reliably told City Press that Mashalaba was already on thin ice prior to this incident after ignoring an order to deploy his troops to a refugee camp. A woman was apparently abducted on August 15 as a result. Mashalaba allegedly also tried to halt the inquiry into the ambush in October. “He involved himself personally in the inquiry and tried to halt it despite direct orders to cooperate,” the UN official said. A letter from a senior Unamid official, in which the quality of South African soldiers’ training was sharply criticised, had been distributed among senior South African army officers just more than a month ago. The letter, which was apparently also sent to top officials at the UN headquarters in New York, mentions the soldiers’ lack of discipline and their arrogance. The Zuma link In 2010 the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) controversially awarded two oil concessions in the east of the country to President Jacob Zuma’s nephew, Khulubuse (pictured left). The rights were originally awarded to Irish oil company Tullow and South Africa’s Divine Inspiration Group in 2006, but “reassigned” to two Khulubuse Zuma companies, Caprikat and Foxwhelp, which are registered in the British Virgin Islands. The oil blocks are in Lake Albert in the east of the DRC on the border with Uganda. In January last year, British oil industry watchdog Platform London reported that Zuma’s companies had begun exploration activities. In 2010 Mark Willcox, chief executive of Human Settlements Minister Tokyo Sexwale’s Mvelaphanda Holdings, confirmed to the Mail & Guardian that they were giving “strategic advice” to Khulubuse Zuma. Mvela signed two mining deals in the eastern DRC in 2004 relating to the Kilomoto gold project and the Ruashi copper-and-cobalt project. Reuters reported that Khulubuse Zuma signed the deal with the DRC government on behalf of Caprikat and that Michael Hulley, President Zuma’s lawyer and legal adviser, signed the Foxwhelp deal. - Pieter-Louis Myburgh http://www.citypress.co.za/news/exam-cheat-is-training-army/ . [size=16pt] The media is using tactics to pin Mashalaba down. He does not train troops, corporals, sergents, leutenants and captains do. Mashalaba's responsibilities have nothing to do with physical training other than administrative part of it. Meanwhile, Nigeria admit it has no military and that they are poorly trained. That's what we must concentrate on and not South African Military which has never failed its citizens at all. [/size] http://www.ocnus.net/artman2/publish/Africa_8/Impasse%20Over%20Abducted%20Girls%20as%20Nigeria%20Admits%20It%20Has%20No%20Military%20Option.shtml 1 Like |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by patches689: 7:24am On Jul 13, 2014 |
agaugust:
[size=14pt]Rooivalk helicopter is an over-rated piece of obsolescent half-french metal junk called helicopter gunship. It barks more than it can bite. About 20 years since project started, no single export customer, every country that has a wise air force runs away from Rooivalk fat-turkey, the helo has no combat history execpt against a handful of rebles who have no radar and no anti-aircraft missile.
DENEL makes a lot of false claims about the Rooivalk, e.g. the Nap Of Earth low level flight capability system is a fraud and failure, the last time South African air force tried low level Rooivalk flight, it crashed into electricity wires in broad daylight, once an attack helicopter fails the low level combat test, it becomes useless.
Rooivalk helicopter remains useless to all air forces in the world, so they buy other helos. Only 11 units of Rooivalk exist since about 20 years of introduction. The body/airframe design already looks out-dated for a $ 40 million flying machine !
Roovalks remains a largely untested helicopter, maybe a bit rebel-worthy, but Mi-35 Hinds fought alongside the Rooivalk in all it's combat operations. So the Rooivalk has NEVER been tested in combat alone. The UN force in Congo was afraid of letting the Rooivalk fly to combat without help from the Mi-35 Hind which were flown by Ukraine and India in Congo DRC theatre.
Does anybody have money to waste? Go buy Rooivalk helicopter...it has no future, it is a dead end.
CASE CLOSED ![grin](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/grin.png)
PHOTO: ROOIVALK HELICOPTER OF SANDF, OUT-DATED BODY DESIGN, OVER-RATED PEFORMANCE[/size]
Cool opinion. But the FACT is that Rooivalks were called into Congo because the Hind was found to be ineffective |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by patches689: 7:25am On Jul 13, 2014 |
agaugust:
The South African Recces are 99% dead, retired, ran away overseas, or too old to fight. The real ones with combat experience are NOT the SANDF, they are the old time apartheid regime SADF in an era gone by and now history.
Today, 95% of South African army men and equipment have zero combat experience, 99% of South African air force has zero combat experience, while 100% of your expensive navy men and equipment have zero combat experience.
South African military is like a team of footballers who spent all their lives in training under a coach, but NEVER engage in any football competition with a real opponent to test their real capability...get it ? ![tongue](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/tongue.png)
. Prove it. |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by MikeZA: 10:12am On Jul 13, 2014 |
agaugust: .
[size=16pt] South African Soldiers are poorly tained...United Nations complains.
SANDF trained by Brigadier-General who cheated to pass military exams
Fancy SANDF photos you see here are deceptions from a rag tag unprofessional army dressed in nice uniforms [/size]
UN lambasts discipline of South Africa’s poorly trained’ troops.
The officer in charge of training soldiers for deployment to the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) is an exam cheat.
And in another embarrassment for the SA National Defence Force (SANDF), a top UN official sharply criticised the discipline and combat readiness of South African soldiers in Sudan in a recent letter.
Brigadier-General Sithabiso Mahlobo, who was found guilty in 2002 of cheating in exams, is in charge of the training of soldiers who are in the process of being deployed to the war-torn North Kivu province of the DRC.
He is the commander of 46 SA Brigade in Kengray, Joburg.
Mahlobo confirmed to City Press’ sister newspaper, Rapport, that he is responsible for training soldiers who will join the neutral international force (NIF) to fight the notorious M23 rebels in the DRC.
The NIF is a joint operation of the UN and the Southern African Development Community.
Mahlobo was demoted from general to major in 2002 after he was found to have cheated in a military exam by copying from another candidate.
Despite this, he again progressed through the ranks and was promoted to brigadier-general in 2008.
He then took over 46 SA Brigade.
According to military expert Helmoed-Römer Heitman, no officer who has been found guilty of an offence like cheating in examinations should train other soldiers.
In an unrelated development, it has been revealed that a top SANDF commander refused to receive extra training for South African soldiers on duty in Sudan.
In a classified letter, Lieutenant-Colonel T Mashalaba, the commander of an infantry battalion of the SANDF, which was until recently deployed in the troubled Darfur region in Sudan, flatly refused to allow his soldiers to receive training from the UN and the African Union (AU) after one of his soldiers died in an ambush last year.
Mashalaba was in command of the 10 SA Infantry Battalion when Rifleman Vincent van der Walt (23) died in the ambush in October.
Two other South African soldiers were wounded in the attack.
They were stationed at the combined mission of the AU and UN (Unamid) in Darfur.
A UN official in Sudan reliably told City Press that Mashalaba was already on thin ice prior to this incident after ignoring an order to deploy his troops to a refugee camp.
A woman was apparently abducted on August 15 as a result.
Mashalaba allegedly also tried to halt the inquiry into the ambush in October.
“He involved himself personally in the inquiry and tried to halt it despite direct orders to cooperate,” the UN official said.
A letter from a senior Unamid official, in which the quality of South African soldiers’ training was sharply criticised, had been distributed among senior South African army officers just more than a month ago.
The letter, which was apparently also sent to top officials at the UN headquarters in New York, mentions the soldiers’ lack of discipline and their arrogance.
The Zuma link
In 2010 the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) controversially awarded two oil concessions in the east of the country to President Jacob Zuma’s nephew, Khulubuse (pictured left).
The rights were originally awarded to Irish oil company Tullow and South Africa’s Divine Inspiration Group in 2006, but “reassigned” to two Khulubuse Zuma companies, Caprikat and Foxwhelp, which are registered in the British Virgin Islands.
The oil blocks are in Lake Albert in the east of the DRC on the border with Uganda.
In January last year, British oil industry watchdog Platform London reported that Zuma’s companies had begun exploration activities.
In 2010 Mark Willcox, chief executive of Human Settlements Minister Tokyo Sexwale’s Mvelaphanda Holdings, confirmed to the Mail & Guardian that they were giving “strategic advice” to Khulubuse Zuma.
Mvela signed two mining deals in the eastern DRC in 2004 relating to the Kilomoto gold project and the Ruashi copper-and-cobalt project.
Reuters reported that Khulubuse Zuma signed the deal with the DRC government on behalf of Caprikat and that Michael Hulley, President Zuma’s lawyer and legal adviser, signed the Foxwhelp deal.
- Pieter-Louis Myburgh
http://www.citypress.co.za/news/exam-cheat-is-training-army/ . Soldiers going to the DRC were trained by a Colonel. |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by MikeZA: 10:25am On Jul 13, 2014 |
agaugust:
The South African Recces are 99% dead, retired, ran away overseas, or too old to fight. The real ones with combat experience are NOT the SANDF, they are the old time apartheid regime SADF in an era gone by and now history.
Today, 95% of South African army men and equipment have zero combat experience, 99% of South African air force has zero combat experience, while 100% of your expensive navy men and equipment have zero combat experience.
South African military is like a team of footballers who spent all their lives in training under a coach, but NEVER engage in any football competition with a real opponent to test their real capability...get it ? ![tongue](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/tongue.png)
. Retired special forces go into the reserves. Similar to generals when their country needs them,you'll see them stepping forward. Just yesterday I was talking to a former 32 battalion soldier who's now a game ranger. Some his friends are still serving in the force. SANDF soldiers is trained by officers with great operational experience. Your analogy is poor mister,cause in the military you're told what to do you don't just "shot" like in the football anytime you want. So having experienced officers to train and led you to battle is............................ |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by MikeZA: 10:41am On Jul 13, 2014 |
agaugust: .
[size=16pt] South African Soldiers are poorly tained...United Nations complains.
SANDF trained by Brigadier-General who cheated to pass military exams
Fancy SANDF photos you see here are deceptions from a rag tag unprofessional army dressed in nice uniforms [/size]
UN lambasts discipline of South Africa’s poorly trained’ troops.
The officer in charge of training soldiers for deployment to the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) is an exam cheat.
And in another embarrassment for the SA National Defence Force (SANDF), a top UN official sharply criticised the discipline and combat readiness of South African soldiers in Sudan in a recent letter.
Brigadier-General Sithabiso Mahlobo, who was found guilty in 2002 of cheating in exams, is in charge of the training of soldiers who are in the process of being deployed to the war-torn North Kivu province of the DRC.
He is the commander of 46 SA Brigade in Kengray, Joburg.
Mahlobo confirmed to City Press’ sister newspaper, Rapport, that he is responsible for training soldiers who will join the neutral international force (NIF) to fight the notorious M23 rebels in the DRC.
The NIF is a joint operation of the UN and the Southern African Development Community.
Mahlobo was demoted from general to major in 2002 after he was found to have cheated in a military exam by copying from another candidate.
Despite this, he again progressed through the ranks and was promoted to brigadier-general in 2008.
He then took over 46 SA Brigade.
According to military expert Helmoed-Römer Heitman, no officer who has been found guilty of an offence like cheating in examinations should train other soldiers.
In an unrelated development, it has been revealed that a top SANDF commander refused to receive extra training for South African soldiers on duty in Sudan.
In a classified letter, Lieutenant-Colonel T Mashalaba, the commander of an infantry battalion of the SANDF, which was until recently deployed in the troubled Darfur region in Sudan, flatly refused to allow his soldiers to receive training from the UN and the African Union (AU) after one of his soldiers died in an ambush last year.
Mashalaba was in command of the 10 SA Infantry Battalion when Rifleman Vincent van der Walt (23) died in the ambush in October.
Two other South African soldiers were wounded in the attack.
They were stationed at the combined mission of the AU and UN (Unamid) in Darfur.
A UN official in Sudan reliably told City Press that Mashalaba was already on thin ice prior to this incident after ignoring an order to deploy his troops to a refugee camp.
A woman was apparently abducted on August 15 as a result.
Mashalaba allegedly also tried to halt the inquiry into the ambush in October.
“He involved himself personally in the inquiry and tried to halt it despite direct orders to cooperate,” the UN official said.
A letter from a senior Unamid official, in which the quality of South African soldiers’ training was sharply criticised, had been distributed among senior South African army officers just more than a month ago.
The letter, which was apparently also sent to top officials at the UN headquarters in New York, mentions the soldiers’ lack of discipline and their arrogance.
The Zuma link
In 2010 the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) controversially awarded two oil concessions in the east of the country to President Jacob Zuma’s nephew, Khulubuse (pictured left).
The rights were originally awarded to Irish oil company Tullow and South Africa’s Divine Inspiration Group in 2006, but “reassigned” to two Khulubuse Zuma companies, Caprikat and Foxwhelp, which are registered in the British Virgin Islands.
The oil blocks are in Lake Albert in the east of the DRC on the border with Uganda.
In January last year, British oil industry watchdog Platform London reported that Zuma’s companies had begun exploration activities.
In 2010 Mark Willcox, chief executive of Human Settlements Minister Tokyo Sexwale’s Mvelaphanda Holdings, confirmed to the Mail & Guardian that they were giving “strategic advice” to Khulubuse Zuma.
Mvela signed two mining deals in the eastern DRC in 2004 relating to the Kilomoto gold project and the Ruashi copper-and-cobalt project.
Reuters reported that Khulubuse Zuma signed the deal with the DRC government on behalf of Caprikat and that Michael Hulley, President Zuma’s lawyer and legal adviser, signed the Foxwhelp deal.
- Pieter-Louis Myburgh
http://www.citypress.co.za/news/exam-cheat-is-training-army/ . Soldiers coming out from CAR prepared 6 SAI for deployment,similar to the now deployed 5 SAI. What's funny is that those soldiers performed well in DRC,their mates from Tanzania and Malawi took more than 6 casualties. Let's talk about how ill trained Nigerian soldier are. Almost in every contact with BH your army loses men. Because you infantry isn't well equipped to quickly suppress the enemy fire. What's going on in Nigeria is a civil war. 1 Like |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Nobody: 4:21pm On Jul 13, 2014 |
agaugust:
[size=14pt]Rooivalk helicopter is an over-rated piece of obsolescent half-french metal junk called helicopter gunship. It barks more than it can bite. About 20 years since project started, no single export customer, every country that has a wise air force runs away from Rooivalk fat-turkey, the helo has no combat history execpt against a handful of rebles who have no radar and no anti-aircraft missile.
DENEL makes a lot of false claims about the Rooivalk, e.g. the Nap Of Earth low level flight capability system is a fraud and failure, the last time South African air force tried low level Rooivalk flight, it crashed into electricity wires in broad daylight, once an attack helicopter fails the low level combat test, it becomes useless.
Rooivalk helicopter remains useless to all air forces in the world, so they buy other helos. Only 11 units of Rooivalk exist since about 20 years of introduction. The body/airframe design already looks out-dated for a $ 40 million flying machine !
Roovalks remains a largely untested helicopter, maybe a bit rebel-worthy, but Mi-35 Hinds fought alongside the Rooivalk in all it's combat operations. So the Rooivalk has NEVER been tested in combat alone. The UN force in Congo was afraid of letting the Rooivalk fly to combat without help from the Mi-35 Hind which were flown by Ukraine and India in Congo DRC theatre.
Does anybody have money to waste? Go buy Rooivalk helicopter...it has no future, it is a dead end.
CASE CLOSED ![grin](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/grin.png)
PHOTO: ROOIVALK HELICOPTER OF SANDF, OUT-DATED BODY DESIGN, OVER-RATED PEFORMANCE[/size]
I fully endorse this message. 2 Likes |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by agaugust: 4:35pm On Jul 13, 2014 |
MikeZA: Soldiers coming out from CAR prepared 6 SAI for deployment,similar to the now deployed 5 SAI. What's funny is that those soldiers performed well in DRC,their mates from Tanzania and Malawi took more than 6 casualties. Let's talk about how ill trained Nigerian soldier are. Almost in every contact with BH your army loses men. Because you infantry isn't well equipped to quickly suppress the enemy fire. What's going on in Nigeria is a civil war. SANDF had less casualties in Congo DRC because South African soldiers were hiding behind the backs of Tanzanian soldiers who are brave, bold and professional, they took the bullets on behalf of the cowardly SANDF men, the Tanzanians were asked by the UN to lead and protect SANDF, the Tanzanian/Malawian soldiers died in the front to keep the South African soldiers alive at the back. Nigerian soldiers died in many NOT all engagement with Bokos, why? Because our men are courageous face to face combatants, who do hand to hand fighting in civilian residential areas house to house combat. How does an army use heavy and long range weapons against an enemy wearing civilian clothes and shooting from inside innocent people's houses with women and children everywhere? Should we use mortar and RPG on our own civilians? South Africa has NEVER been tested in a homeland COIN war, so let us see you will use long range grenade launchers and mortars on your own wives and children mixed with insurgents in civilian clothes, so we can count how many collateral damages your own family will suffer ![grin](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/grin.png) |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by agaugust: 4:38pm On Jul 13, 2014 |
MikeZA: Retired special forces go into the reserves. Similar to generals when their country needs them,you'll see them stepping forward. Just yesterday I was talking to a former 32 battalion soldier who's now a game ranger. Some his friends are still serving in the force. SANDF soldiers is trained by officers with great operational experience. Your analogy is poor mister,cause in the military you're told what to do you don't just "shot" like in the football anytime you want. So having experienced officers to train and led you to battle is............................ [size=14pt]South African recces are mostly white-men or Angolan blacks NOT South African blacks. " 32-Battalion, of which Colonel Jan Breytenbach was the founding commander, became the most controversial unit in the South African Army because of the secrecy surrounding it. Its story is virtually the story of the Angolan/Namibian war, because its involvement in it was greater than any other South African unit.The battalion primarily consisted of black troops and NCOs originating from virtually every tribe in Angola. They were led by white South African officers and NCOs ." http://flecha.co.uk/South African recces unit or force is DEAD....DISBANDED IN MARCH 26TH 1993 You have no war experienced special forces black men any more, unless Angolan's are now the top fighters in South African army. The approximately 120 former white-men recces were mostly flushed out by Zulu/Xhosa ANC for apartheid reasons, the approximately 20 men left in SANDF today are too old to fight high tempo long endurance war. 95% of today's SANDF have zero combat experience. FACT !!! .[/size] PHOTO 1 : THE FAMOUS SOUTH AFRICAN RECCES ARE NOW DISBANDED, DEAD, TOO OLD, RETIRED, FLUSHED OUT, OR ESCAPED OVERSEAS PHOTO 2 : CURRENT NIGERIAN ARMY YOUNG BLOOD, EXPERIENCED AND BATTLE TESTED SPECIAL FORCES IN WAR ZONE .
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Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Nobody: 4:51pm On Jul 13, 2014 |
patches689: Guys, could we stop the dick measuring for one second.
I want to hear legit opinions from all members.... why did the Mangusta beat the Rooivalk for the Turkish trails?
yes, the rooivalk is slower
But the rooivalk has a longer operational range
and a bigger payload
and a higher service ceiling
but is less agile (rate of climb) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_helicopter#Performance
The rooivalk carries more ammo for the same caliber pintle-mounted weapon (20mm)
The rooivalk can carry more ATGM's (16 v ![cool](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/cool.png)
The rooivalk comes with the Mokopa which is superior to the AGM-114 "Hellfire" (longer range, better penetration with the same seeker - millimeter band radar)
And dont talk about the combat suite... as the Turkish deal would have financed the Rooivalk lite with the new combat suite and ground search radar
I can only speculate that political influence or obscure doctrinal needs* were the influence
*maybe the turks wanted more of a recon orientated attack helicopter, but then they would have chosen the Tiger as it is the best the west has to offer in terms of a long range recon orientated attack helo
I know augugbgugug will shitpost... but I wanna hear from the rest of the forum (not only south africans) The A-129 is an Agile, very manoeuvrable helicopter. Range is infinite with Air-Air refuelling capabilities. Range isn't a factor. Neither do I believe the range of the rooivalk. It is clearly doctored. There is also the issue of Price. No one would pay 40 million dollars for a helicopter, not even the americans. It is not just feasible. There is also the question of reliance, the A-129 is a more reliable combat tested helicopter, the availability of spares and it's long history of service in the italian Airforce. It has seen action in Angola all through to Iraq and afghanistan. The T-129 is designed to incorporate turkish technology, it carries a wonderful array of weapons and built to operate in a hot, mountainous and humid climate of southern turkey, especially in the kurdistan region where turkey is engaged in military operations. Politically, the italians would definitely support the turks in their bid to join the E-U with this cooperation. 1 Like |
Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by MikeZA: 5:02pm On Jul 13, 2014 |
agaugust:
SANDF had less casualties in Congo DRC because South African soldiers were hiding behind the backs of Tanzanian soldiers who are brave, bold and professional, they took the bullets on behalf of the cowardly SANDF men, the Tanzanians were asked by the UN to lead and protect SANDF, the Tanzanian/Malawian soldiers died in the front to keep the South African soldiers alive at the back.
Nigerian soldiers died in many NOT all engagement with Bokos, why? Because our men are courageous face to face combatants, who do hand to hand fighting in civilian residential areas house to house combat. How does an army use heavy and long range weapons against an enemy wearing civilian clothes and shooting from inside innocent people's houses with women and children everywhere? Should we use mortar and RPG on our own civilians?
South Africa has NEVER been tested in a homeland COIN war, so let us see you will use long range grenade launchers and mortars on your own wives and children mixed with insurgents in civilian clothes, so we can count how many collateral damages your own family will suffer 1. Name the town,battle or village on which the SANDF hid behind TZ force,You'll ignore this question. 2. COIN? Do you know MK,SWAPO,AZAPO,ZANU,FRELIMO? |