mammanbawa:

Saudi muftis dancing does not make dancing halal. To the best of my knowledge, only women are allowed to sing and dance in the absence of men.

Lord have mercy. Not even Quran and hadith evidence to back up your claims?. You guys are misguided. No doubt about it. So you know better than this mufti now? .

It is really laughable for you to say only women are allowed to sing and dance. Later you and your brothers would say it is haram for women to sing. You guys better return to madrasa and learn all over again. Or go for Tarbiya

You don't know what you are talking about

Empiree:
Lord have mercy. Not even Quran and hadith evidence to back up your claims?. You guys are misguided. No doubt about it. So you know better than this mufti now? .

It is really laughable for you to say only women are allowed to sing and dance. Later you and your brothers would say it is haram for women to sing. You guys better return to madrasa and learn all over again. Or go for Tarbiya

You don't know what you are talking about

“[Allaah said to Iblees:] And befool them gradually those whom you can among them with your voice (i.e. songs, music, and any other call for Allaah’s disobedience)…” [al-Israa’ 17:64]
Ma’aazif is the plural of mi’zafah, and refers to musical instruments (Fath al-Baari, 10/55), instruments which are played (al-Majmoo’, 11/577). Al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) narrated from al-Jawhari (may Allaah have mercy on him) that ma’aazif means singing. In his Sihaah it says that it means musical instruments. It was also said that it refers to the sound of the instruments. In al-Hawaashi by al-Dimyaati (may Allaah have mercy on him) it says: ma’aazif means drums (dufoof, sing. daff) and other instruments which are struck or beaten (Fath al-Baari, 10/55).

Evidence of prohibition in the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

Allaah says in Soorat Luqmaan (interpretation of the meaning):

“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]

The scholar of the ummah, Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: this means singing. Mujaahid (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this means playing the drum (tabl). (Tafseer al-Tabari, 21/40).

Al-Hasan al-Basri (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this aayah was revealed concerning singing and musical instruments (lit. woodwind instruments). (Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/451).


May Allah guide us unto the right path

mammanbawa:

Quite alright there are good deeds that were never known to the prophet and the sahaba and they're really good deeds like you mentioned earlier and those deeds never led to a bad deed. You're one of the many who celebrate moulud in the appropriate order, what about the thousands that see it as a party or whatsoever. It's a good deed gone bad in their case which should be frowned at and preached against. Sheikhs and scholars must preach moulud as a good deed and also explain the need for morality and decency and also address the mixing of genders including the eid celebrations.

# You are right brother and I agree with you that scholars need to do more to refine the societal misconducts in the name of religion.

AlBaqir:


# You are right brother and I agree with you that scholars need to do more to refine the societal misconducts in the name of religion.

And y'all need to portray moulud as a good deed and not a feast just as you've done. Barakallah fikh

I expected you to quote this, especially sura Lukman. I don't want to derail this thread much. I was gonna post lengthy explanation but eschewed. Let me tell you something, if there is parenthesis in a verse, it means it is opinion and it is not definitive as you rightly quoted. Of all Sahaba, only Ibn Abbas(ra) interpreted the ayah that way.

mammanbawa:


“[Allaah said to Iblees:] And befool them gradually those whom you can among them with your voice (i.e. songs, music, and any other call for Allaah’s disobedience)…” [al-Israa’ 17:64]
Ma’aazif is the plural of mi’zafah, and refers to musical instruments (Fath al-Baari, 10/55), instruments which are played (al-Majmoo’, 11/577). Al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) narrated from al-Jawhari (may Allaah have mercy on him) that ma’aazif means singing. In his Sihaah it says that it means musical instruments. It was also said that it refers to the sound of the instruments. In al-Hawaashi by al-Dimyaati (may Allaah have mercy on him) it says: ma’aazif means drums (dufoof, sing. daff) and other instruments which are struck or beaten (Fath al-Baari, 10/55).

Evidence of prohibition in the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

Allaah says in Soorat Luqmaan (interpretation of the meaning):

“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]

The scholar of the ummah, Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: this means singing. Mujaahid (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this means playing the drum (tabl). (Tafseer al-Tabari, 21/40).

Al-Hasan al-Basri (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this aayah was revealed concerning singing and musical instruments (lit. woodwind instruments). (Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/451).


May Allah guide us unto the right path

Now, instead of engaging you in a lengthy argument, this hadith refute your post.


Hadith on Eid: The Prophet let Aisha sing and play on Eid


Aisha reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, came to my house when two girls were beside me singing songs of Bu’ath. The Prophet laid down and turned his face to the other side. Then, Abu Bakr came in and spoke to me harshly, saying, “Musical instruments of Satan near the Prophet?” The Prophet turned his face toward him and he said, “Leave them alone.” When Abu Bakr became inattentive, I signaled to the girls and they left. It was the day of Eid and the Abyssinians were playing with shields and spears. Either I asked the Prophet or he asked me whether I would like to watch and I said yes. Then the Prophet made me stand behind him while my cheek was touching his cheek and the Prophet was saying, “Carry on, O tribe of Arfida.” I became tired and the Prophet asked me, “Are you satisfied?” I said yes, so I left.



Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 907, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 892

Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim




Lesson From The Hadith

# the Prophet prevented Abu Bakr and Umar from interrupting and scolding the players and singers, and he told Abu Bakr that this festival was a joyous occasion and that singing was a means on enjoyment.



# on both occasions he(saw) stayed for a long time with Aisha, letting her watch the show of the Abyssinians and listening with her to the girls singing. This proves that it is better to be good-humored in pleasing women and children with games than to disapprove of such amusements out of a sense of harsh piety and asceticism.



# the Prophet encouraged Aisha by asking her if she would like to watch.



# singing and playing with the drum is permissible.”



Source: Iḥyā’ Ulūm al-Dīn 2/278

AlBaqir:


# Obviously you are the one that do not get it, not me. You have failed to understand the difference between:

* Revival of a lost Sunnah, and

* Introducing good deeds in to Islam.


# The verse of the Qur'an and Hadith I have posted, both talk about " introducing good acts/deeds", but you are talking about "reviving lost Sunnah". Absolutely the two are different things.


* Using of microphone and speaker in Adhan, Iqamat

* Qur'an in application, book form, etc

* Harakat (vowel sounds) on the huruf of the Qur'an etc

All these were never part of Sunnah, they are introduced into Islam, and we tagged them "good deeds". Or are they Bid'ah in the definition of misguidance?

Therefore, in the definition of good deeds/acts is what those who used to celebrate Mawlud Nabiy, also placed it. How do you celebrate it, is another thing entirely.

this is it, ur above point I agree are all introduction, BUT nobody has ever said that calling adhan with loudspeaker or any of the above you mentioned, will be rewarded more than a person that do not use them,

I repeat BIDIA is practicing/introducing something new into the religion of Islam which was never practiced by the Rasool (SAW) or his companions, with the intention that after practising such an individual will be rewarded,

Empiree:


I expected you to quote this, especially sura Lukman. I don't want to derail this thread much. I was gonna post lengthy explanation but eschewed. Let me tell you something, if there is parenthesis in a verse, it means it is opinion and it is not definitive as you rightly quoted. Of all Sahaba, only Ibn Abbas(ra) interpreted the ayah that way.Now, instead of engaging you in a lengthy argument, this hadith refute your post.


Hadith on Eid: The Prophet let Aisha sing and play on Eid


Aisha reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, came to my house when two girls were beside me singing songs of Bu’ath. The Prophet laid down and turned his face to the other side. Then, Abu Bakr came in and spoke to me harshly, saying, “Musical instruments of Satan near the Prophet?” The Prophet turned his face toward him and he said, “Leave them alone.” When Abu Bakr became inattentive, I signaled to the girls and they left. It was the day of Eid and the Abyssinians were playing with shields and spears. Either I asked the Prophet or he asked me whether I would like to watch and I said yes. Then the Prophet made me stand behind him while my cheek was touching his cheek and the Prophet was saying, “Carry on, O tribe of Arfida.” I became tired and the Prophet asked me, “Are you satisfied?” I said yes, so I left.



Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 907, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 892

Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim




Lesson From The Hadith

# the Prophet prevented Abu Bakr and Umar from interrupting and scolding the players and singers, and he told Abu Bakr that this festival was a joyous occasion and that singing was a means on enjoyment.



# on both occasions he(saw) stayed for a long time with Aisha, letting her watch the show of the Abyssinians and listening with her to the girls singing. This proves that it is better to be good-humored in pleasing women and children with games than to disapprove of such amusements out of a sense of harsh piety and asceticism.



# the Prophet encouraged Aisha by asking her if she would like to watch.



# singing and playing with the drum is permissible.”



Source: Iḥyā’ Ulūm al-Dīn 2/278

Wow I never heard of this. I was made to believe that the prophet let them sing in his house while he was away and in the absence of men. Knowledge is power indeed. Jazakallah khairan for this.

Empiree:


I expected you to quote this, especially sura Lukman. I don't want to derail this thread much. I was gonna post lengthy explanation but eschewed. Let me tell you something, if there is parenthesis in a verse, it means it is opinion and it is not definitive as you rightly quoted. Of all Sahaba, only Ibn Abbas(ra) interpreted the ayah that way.Now, instead of engaging you in a lengthy argument, this hadith refute your post.


Hadith on Eid: The Prophet let Aisha sing and play on Eid


Aisha reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, came to my house when two girls were beside me singing songs of Bu’ath. The Prophet laid down and turned his face to the other side. Then, Abu Bakr came in and spoke to me harshly, saying, “Musical instruments of Satan near the Prophet?” The Prophet turned his face toward him and he said, “Leave them alone.” When Abu Bakr became inattentive, I signaled to the girls and they left. It was the day of Eid and the Abyssinians were playing with shields and spears. Either I asked the Prophet or he asked me whether I would like to watch and I said yes. Then the Prophet made me stand behind him while my cheek was touching his cheek and the Prophet was saying, “Carry on, O tribe of Arfida.” I became tired and the Prophet asked me, “Are you satisfied?” I said yes, so I left.



Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 907, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 892

Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim




Lesson From The Hadith

# the Prophet prevented Abu Bakr and Umar from interrupting and scolding the players and singers, and he told Abu Bakr that this festival was a joyous occasion and that singing was a means on enjoyment.



# on both occasions he(saw) stayed for a long time with Aisha, letting her watch the show of the Abyssinians and listening with her to the girls singing. This proves that it is better to be good-humored in pleasing women and children with games than to disapprove of such amusements out of a sense of harsh piety and asceticism.



# the Prophet encouraged Aisha by asking her if she would like to watch.



# singing and playing with the drum is permissible.”



Source: Iḥyā’ Ulūm al-Dīn 2/278

How is this an evidence that Music is permissible?

You can't quote one hadith and leave several other hadith that should be check together.

It was narrated that al-Rubayyi’ bint Mu’awwidh said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) entered upon me on the day of my wedding and sat on my mattress as you are sitting now, and young girls were beating the daff and singing about their fathers who had been killed at the battle of Badr, until a girl said, “And among us is a Prophet who knows what will happen tomorrow.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not say this, but say the other things that you were saying.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3700.

It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah that she took a woman on her wedding night to a man from among the Ansaar, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her, “O ‘Aa’ishah, was there any entertainment (in the gathering)? For the Ansaar love entertainment.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4765.

It was narrated that Abu Ishaaq said: I heard ‘Aamir ibn Sa’d al-Bajali say: I saw Thaabit ibn Wadee’ah and Qarazah ibn Ka’b al-Ansaari at a wedding, and there was singing. I spoke to them about that and they said that a concession had been granted allowing singing at weddings and weeping for the dead, so long as there was no wailing.

Narrated by al-Bayhaqi, 14469.

It was narrated that Muhammad ibn Haatib al-Jamahi said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The thing that differentiates between haraam and halaal is the beating of the daff and voices.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1008; al-Nasaa’i, 3316; Ibn Maajah, 1886. Classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Adaab al-Zafaaf, p. 96.

This is what it is permitted for women to do of singing at weddings. The only musical instrument that is permissible for them is the daff, and not others such as the tabl. The difference between them is that the tabl is covered on both sides whereas the daff is open on one side and covered on the other.

It was reported in a saheeh hadeeth from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “In my ummah there will be people who allow fornication/adultery (zina), silk, wine and musical instruments [ma’aazif]. Some people will stay at the side of a mountain, and they will have flocks of sheep. When a poor person comes in the evening to ask them for something he needs, they will say. ‘Come back to us tomorrow.’ Then during the night Allaah will destroy them by causing the mountain to fall upon them, while He changes others into apes and swine. They will remain in such a state until the Day of Resurrection.’”

(Reported by al-Bukhaari in al-Saheeh mu’allaqan, 51/10. Reported mawsoolan by al-Bayhaqi in al-Sunan al-Kubra, 3/272; al-Tabaraani in al-Mu’jam al-Kabeer, 3/319; and Ibn Hibbaan in al-Saheeh (8/265-266). Classed as saheeh by Ibn al-Salaah in ‘Uloom al-Hadeeth (32), Ibn al-Qayyim in Ighaathat al-Lahfaan (255) and Tahdheeb al-Sunan (5/270-272), al-Haafiz in al-Fath (10/51) and al-Albaani in al-Saheehah (1/140)).

NB: Ladies are allowed to play the daff and sing( or dance to) halal songs among themselves...

cc: mammanbawa

^^^

Your input doesn't contradict my post so far. And I have not said anything in agreement with "free mixing". Bottom line in this line of argument is permmibility of singing and dancing, which they claimed is forbidden.

Empiree:
Why did you remove your post?. Anyways, are you ready to revive this sunnah without looking like you are "celebrating" Mawlid?.

Here is the hadith narrated in Sunna Nasai, It was narrated that Abu Sa'eed Al-Khudri said:

"Mu'awiyah, (may Allah be pleased with him,) said: 'The Messenger of Allah [SAW] went out to a circle - meaning, of his Companions - and said: 'What are you doing?' They said: 'We have come together to pray to Allah and praise Him for guiding us to His religion, and blessing us with you.' He said: 'I ask you, by Allah, is that the only reason?' They said: 'By Allah, we have not come together for any other reason.' He said: 'I am not asking you to swear to an oath because of any suspicion; rather Jibril came to me and told me that Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, is boasting of you to the angels.'"

When was the last time you practised this 'forgotten' sunnah?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79b0yod4RVw


The argument will forever go in cycle and i am not here for that. But seriously, people need to stop calling those who do "alhubidia" or that it was started by Shia fatimid. These are silly excuses that hold no water.



Classification
Sahih


References
al-Nasaa’i Book of the Etiquette of Judges #5428
al-Nasaa’i 5426
Sunan an-Nasaa’i Vol. 6, Book 49, Hadith 5428
Sunan an-Nasaa’i Vol. 6, Book of the Etiquette of Judges, Hadith 5428

Link
Page: https://muflihun.com/nasai/49/5428






As-salaam alaika Ya' rosula'llah

Empiree stop misinterpreting texts!

Shaykh al-Islam (may Allah have mercy on him) was asked about a man who established a waqf and in some of his conditions he stipulated that they should recite whatever they are able to (of Qur’aan) and recite Subhaan Allah (Glory be to Allah), Laa ilaaha ill-Allah (there is no God but Allah) and Allahu akbar (Allah is most great), and send blessings upon the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) after Fajr until sunrise. Is it better to do that out loud or quietly?

He replied:

Praise be to Allah. Rather it is better to recite dhikr and du‘aa’ – such as sending blessings upon the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) – quietly, unless there is a reason to do otherwise. At this particular time it is especially preferable (to recite it quietly), because Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And remember your Lord by your tongue and within yourself, humbly and with fear without loudness in words in the mornings” [al-A‘raaf 7:205]. And in as-Saheeh it is narrated from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) that when he saw the Sahaabah (may Allah be pleased with them) raising their voices in dhikr, he said: “O people, be easy with yourselves (and lower your voices), for you are not calling on one who is deaf or absent; rather you are calling upon One Who is All-Hearing and Close. The One upon Whom you are calling it is closer to one of you than the neck of his mount.”

End quote from al-Fataawa al-Kubra, 4/246

^^^^

Sir, I don't understand what your problem is. What and how exactly is your input up there correlates with narration in sunnan Nasai?. Besides, whatever you posted was opinion of sheikh ul-islam, whoever that is.

The hadith quoted in Sunnan Nasai stated the reason they gathered. That's bottom line of the argument. Are you ready to revive that sunnan bcuz I don't understand what I "misrepresentated"?.

Empiree:
^^^^

Sir, I don't understand what your problem is. What and how exactly is your input up there correlates with narration in sunnan Nasai?. Besides, whatever you posted was opinion of sheikh ul-islam, whoever that is.

The hadith quoted in Sunnan Nasai stated the reason they gathered. That's bottom line of the argument. Are you ready to revive that sunnan bcuz I don't understand what I "misrepresentated"?.

And i should leave the opinion of Sheikhul islam and follow the opinion of Ahlu bid'ah right?

The relevance is that Allah instructed His remembrance to be silent, done humbly, within ourselves (not together in congregation as you do Mawlid and others). So the hadith you quoted was not for us.

Mammanbawa and others,

Do not be deceived by Empiree and AlBaqir.

The former is (Bid'iaphilic) a lover of Bid'ia and the later is a Shia (Hater of Most of the Sahabahs).

I think you know the capabilities of each of them since you are from the north!

...And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. 59:7

AbuTwins:


And i should leave the opinion of Sheikhul islam and follow the opinion of Ahlu bid'ah right?

The relevance is that Allah instructed His remembrance to be silent, done humbly, within ourselves (not together in congregation as you do Mawlid and others). So the hadith you quoted was not for us.

brother, you also quoted one hadith. There are other narrations about loud dhikr. Quran and sunnah favors both. Loud dhikr only needs to be done appreciately. Why don't you tell them at kaaba to do dhikr silently when they tawaf?.

However, this is not entirely about dhikhr. Argument here is about permmibility of mawlid. So I have no idea how you got into loud or silent dhikh. Besides, it is still opinion of sheikh you referred to. There are tons of shuyukh, mawlana, alfas, khateeb, imams mufti with difference of options. Why do you guys love tagging people who against your ideal "alhubida"?.

Maybe competetors should be silent too during Quran competetion , since that's dhikr too. How about that?.

AbuTwins:
Mammanbawa and others,

Do not be deceived by Empiree and AlBaqir.

The former is (Bid'iaphilic) a lover of Bid'ia and the later is a Shia (Hater of Most of the Sahabahs).

I think you know the capabilities of each of them since you are from the north!

...And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. 59:7

This is how you guys go around tagging people alhbida'h. Your first post in response to me alone shows that you dont even understand what this thread is about. And since you want to tag me alhbidah, all i need is to provide evidence of loud dhikr. SAY NO MORE


From Uqba ibn Aamir (RA): "The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said of a man named Dhu al-bijadayn: "Innahu awwah He is a man who says ah! a lot" This is because he was a man abundant in his dhikr of Allah in Qur'an-recitation, and he would raise his voice high when supplicating.[Musnad Ahmed (5/161), Tafsir Ibn Kathir (4/193)] – Imam al-Haythami (rah) declared it's chain to be “HASSAN” in Majma uz Zawaid (9/616)]




Narrated by Jabir bin Abdullah (RA): The people saw fire (light) in the graveyard and they went there. They found that the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) was in a grave and he was saying: Give me your companion. This was a man who used to "RAISE HIS VOICE" while mentioning the name of Allah. [Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah Abu Dawood Hadith # 3164, Published by Maktaba al Asriyyah, Beirut, Lebanon]



Imam Hakim has mentioned this in the chapter : “Virtue of raising the voice in Dhikr and he declared it "Sahih on the criteria of Sahih Muslim" [Mustadrak ala Sahihayn (1/522)]



Now since you chose to cite your favorite sheikh ul islam (whoever that was), here is one shaykh (Mujaddad wal Imam Jalal-ud-din Suyuti (rah) also in favor of LOUD DHIKR in his verdict. He was asked a question about loud dhikr


Question:

All praises and thanks are due to Allah & He suffices. Peace be upon His chosen servants. You asked may Allah honor you, concerning "THE SUFI PRACTICE" of setting up circles in the masajid for the purpose of dhikr, in particular the "RAISING OF THEIR VOICES" when reciting La ILaha IL Allah. Is this (practice) hated or disliked (makrūh) or otherwise?


Answer:


In fact, "THERE IS NOTHING DISLIKED IN IT AT ALL" Many hadiths of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) have actually suggested that open and loud dhikr (al jahr bi al-dhikr) is preferred. There are also those ahadīth that justify silent dhikr. Both these views are correct in relation to the varying nature of individuals. [As-Suyuti in Al Hawi lil Fatawi, Volume # 1, Page No. 422]


There are more evidences. The largest and biggest LOUD DHIkR in world is at Ka'aba in Makkah. If you can refute that you can refute all. But kindly not derail this thread if you have nothing to counter mawlid ITSELF. Jazakallah Khayran

Empiree:
brother, you also quoted one hadith. There are other narrations about loud dhikr. Quran and sunnah favors both. Loud dhikr only needs to be done appreciately. Why don't you tell them at kaaba to do dhikr silently when they tawaf?.

However, this is not entirely about dhikhr. Argument here is about permmibility of mawlid. So I have no idea how you got into loud or silent dhikh. Besides, it is still opinion of sheikh you referred to. There are tons of shuyukh, mawlana, alfas, khateeb, imams mufti with difference of options. Why do you guys love tagging people who against your ideal "alhubida"?.

Maybe competetors should be silent too during Quran competetion , since that's dhikr too. How about that?.

Calling you Ahl Bidi'a is because you like doing what the Prophet and his companions never did. And you justify it wrongly with Qur'an and Hadith to suit your claims.

If i were to ask you....How did the Prophet recite dhikr?

How did the Sahabahs do it?

Qur'anic competition is a competition where the examiner tests you based on the quality of your recitation! If you don't recite loud, how will the examiner hear you! The intention is to recite loud to be heard. And i quoted the Sheikh who quoted an hadith and a Qur'an verse.

If you talk about Dhikr at Kaaba, that is the way it was practiced by the Prophet and the Sahabah. How do we do acts of worship? We do it as we authentically received it from the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wa salam).

Based on this, there is no way legislated to do dhikr loudly or in congregation nor is there anything like birthday celebration in Islam.

Empiree:
This is how you guys go around tagging people alhbida'h. Your first post in response to me alone shows that you dont even understand what this thread is about. And since you want to tag me alhbidah, all i need is to provide evidence of loud dhikr. SAY NO MORE


From Uqba ibn Aamir (RA): "The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said of a man named Dhu al-bijadayn: "Innahu awwah He is a man who says ah! a lot" This is because he was a man abundant in his dhikr of Allah in Qur'an-recitation, and he would raise his voice high when supplicating.[Musnad Ahmed (5/161), Tafsir Ibn Kathir (4/193)] – Imam al-Haythami (rah) declared it's chain to be “HASSAN” in Majma uz Zawaid (9/616)]




Narrated by Jabir bin Abdullah (RA): The people saw fire (light) in the graveyard and they went there. They found that the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) was in a grave and he was saying: Give me your companion. This was a man who used to "RAISE HIS VOICE" while mentioning the name of Allah. [Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah Abu Dawood Hadith # 3164, Published by Maktaba al Asriyyah, Beirut, Lebanon]



Imam Hakim has mentioned this in the chapter : “Virtue of raising the voice in Dhikr and he declared it "Sahih on the criteria of Sahih Muslim" [Mustadrak ala Sahihayn (1/522)]



Now since you chose to cite your favorite sheikh ul islam (whoever that was), here is one shaykh (Mujaddad wal Imam Jalal-ud-din Suyuti (rah) also in favor of LOUD DHIKR in his verdict. He was asked a question about loud dhikr


Question:

All praises and thanks are due to Allah & He suffices. Peace be upon His chosen servants. You asked may Allah honor you, concerning "THE SUFI PRACTICE" of setting up circles in the masajid for the purpose of dhikr, in particular the "RAISING OF THEIR VOICES" when reciting La ILaha IL Allah. Is this (practice) hated or disliked (makrūh) or otherwise?


Answer:


In fact, "THERE IS NOTHING DISLIKED IN IT AT ALL" Many hadiths of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) have actually suggested that open and loud dhikr (al jahr bi al-dhikr) is preferred. There are also those ahadīth that justify silent dhikr. Both these views are correct in relation to the varying nature of individuals. [As-Suyuti in Al Hawi lil Fatawi, Volume # 1, Page No. 422]


There are more evidences. The largest and biggest LOUD DHIkR in world is at Ka'aba in Makkah. If you can refute that you can refute all. But kindly not derail this thread if you have nothing to counter mawlid ITSELF. Jazakallah Khayran

As much as i dont like to derail the thread, i will like to give one last fact here. Mawlid usually involves loud dhikr so the thread is not entirely derailed.

Allah says:
And remember your Lord by your tongue and within yourself, humbly and with fear without loudness in words in the mornings, and in the afternoons and be not of those who are neglectful.}[7:205]. The meaning of "humbly and with fear" means with hope and fear without raising the voice. Ibn Katheer may Allaah have mercy upon him said: 'This is how the mention of Allaah should be, it should not be made in a loud voice.

The Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) was asked: "Is our Lord near so that we would supplicate Him in a low voice, or is He far away so that we would supplicate Him in a loud voice?"' Thereupon Allaah revealed (which means): {And when My slaves ask you (O Muhammad sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention )) concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near (to them by My Knowledge). I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor).}[2: 186].

Once the companions raised their voice when making a supplication during a trip, so the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) told them: "Supplicate in a soft tone, you are not calling One Who is dumb or far away." [Al-Bukhari and Muslim] Making a supplication silently is better and closer to sincerity. This is even more confirmed if raising one's voice causes disturbance to the sleeping person or the one in prayer.

There is no need bringing any argument for Mawlid. It has all the qualities of Bidi'a.

1. It was not done by the Prophet or any of his companions.

2. There is no legislation on how it is to be done.

3. All acts of worship had been completed before the Prophet died. Anything brought (as an act of worship) after this is Bid'ia.

Abutwins,

I won't even take you serious on this issue at all. But alhamdulilah you said milad nabi involves dhikr contrary to your fellow brothers who always cooked up rubbish.

So then, the hadith you quoted about Allah being near when we supplicates, very well then. When grand muftis in Saudi supplicate in large gathering like Dua Qunut, he does so in silent or loud voice?. That's your homework. The moment you deny that I will bring up proofs. If they make loud dua and loud dhikr, they don't know Allah is close to them?. Oya, give another excuse like you gave Quran competition.

You don't make sense (no offense intended). The ayah you quoted, is quiet suitable for individual or small gathering. Mawlid gathering is large just like hajj is large. There are those who would have to learn the phrases. That's not possible with silent dhikr.

Anyways, since you claimed milad is bidah, when are you going to start practicing sunnah supported in the hadith of sunnan Nasai I posted earlier?.

Again, nawafil doesn't have to be specific act of worship. They are flexible. The only condition is they must abide by sharia. Hadith Qudsi already refutes you where Allah said


"My servants draw near to me through OBLIGATORY ACT OF WORSHIP which I ENJOINED on him. My servant also draw to me through VOLUNTARY ACT OF WORSHIP"


I didn't quote this ^ verbatim. Just paraphrased. It indicates that nawafil doesn't have to be specific way bcus they have no specific legislation. Same with Quran recitation. Did nabi (saw) give SPECIFIC instructions or you may made up your own.

And then you basically ignored all ahadith with respect to loud dhikr, forgetting that there is another hadith where the prophet (saw) called in S. ALI (ra) and some sahaba, asked him if he has wudhu?. He said yes. He said sit down and say lailaha ila Allah. Upon saying that the prophet (saw) "raise your voice".

I can't quote at the moment cuz I'm mobile. So calling ppl who disgree with you "alhubidah" is nothing but rubbish. I already seen flaws in similar cases of yours during elds. That's why I am not taking you serious. Keep confusing yourself

Empiree:
Abutwins,

I won't even take you serious on this issue at all. But alhamdulilah you said milad nabi involves dhikr contrary to your fellow brothers who always cooked up rubbish.

So then, the hadith you quoted about Allah being near when we supplicates, very well then. When grand muftis in Saudi supplicate in large gathering like Dua Qunut, he does so in silent or loud voice?. That's your homework. The moment you deny that I will bring up proofs. If they make loud dua and loud dhikr, they don't know Allah is close to them?. Oya, give another excuse like you gave Quran competition.

You don't make sense (no offense intended). The ayah you quoted, is quiet suitable for individual or small gathering. Mawlid gathering is large just like hajj is large. There are those who would have to learn the phrases. That's not possible with silent dhikr.

Anyways, since you claimed milad is bidah, when are you going to start practicing sunnah supported in the hadith of sunnan Nasai I posted earlier?.

Again, nawafil doesn't have to be specific act of worship. They are flexible. The only condition is they must abide by sharia. Hadith Qudsi already refutes you where Allah said


"My servants draw near to me through OBLIGATORY ACT OF WORSHIP which I ENJOINED on him. My servant also draw to me through VOLUNTARY ACT OF WORSHIP"


I didn't quote this ^ verbatim. Just paraphrased. It indicates that nawafil doesn't have to be specific way bcus they have no specific legislation. Same with Quran recitation. Did nabi (saw) give SPECIFIC instructions or you may made up your own.

And then you basically ignored all ahadith with respect to loud dhikr, forgetting that there is another hadith where the prophet (saw) called in S. ALI (ra) and some sahaba, asked him if he has wudhu?. He said yes. He said sit down and say lailaha ila Allah. Upon saying that the prophet (saw) "raise your voice".

I can't quote at the moment cuz I'm mobile. So calling ppl who disgree with you "alhubidah" is nothing but rubbish. I already seen flaws in similar cases of yours during elds. That's why I am not taking you serious. Keep confusing yourself

Starting from where you stopped, if i have flaws during eids, why not correct them? It's like you are more interested in flaws shopping? Are you the Malaaika that record ones evils? This is definitely a bad quality from you and you even dare say it out. Eid is over several month, I may have repented (that is if it was even a flaw), Allah may have forgiven me for my mistake. But you will never forget.

Ahl-Bid'ia hates Sunnah sha! You can bring a twisted evidence for this too!

AbuTwins:


Starting from where you stopped, if i have flaws during eids, why not correct them? It's like you are more interested in flaws shopping? Are you the Malaaika that record ones evils? This is definitely a bad quality from you and you even dare say it out. Eid is over several month, I may have repented (that is if it was even a flaw), Allah may have forgiven me for my mistake. But you will never forget.

Ahl-Bid'ia hates Sunnah sha! You can bring a twisted evidence for this too!

Case closed.. you have no counter argument. BYE.


Note, FLAW talking about here is about gathering of loud group dhikr in unison which they claim is bidia and refused to be corrected. Same thing you just did here. You have a good day. Stop calling people ahl bid'ah and repent from that crap. It is called 'religious arrogance'. Knowledge did not start nor will it stop with you.


Finally, take it or leave it.

Narrated Abu Ma'bad(the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas): Ibn 'Abbas told me, "In the lifetime of the Prophet it was the custom to celebrate Allah's praises aloud after the compulsory congregational prayers." Ibn 'Abbas further said, "When I heard the Dhikr, I would learn that the compulsory congregational prayer had ended."

Ibn 'Abbas reported: Dhikr (mentioning the name of Allah) in a loud voice after obligatory prayers was (a common practice) during the lifetime of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) ; and when I heard that I came to know that they (the people) had finished the prayer.


Anas reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "When you come upon the meadows of the Garden, graze in them." He was asked, "What are the meadows of the Garden?" "Circles of dhikr," he replied. [at-Tirmidhi)


This is what you people called bid'ah and start tagging people who oppose you 'innovators'

excanny:
See what religion has done to tear apart and divide humans who ought to be brothers within the short period we are here.

Just a simple holiday to rest turned to a battleground for hate and self-righteousness.

Bro. I believe this will help



ذكر شيخ الاسلام ابن تيمية فى (اقتضاء الصراط المستقيم - 1/297) كلاما حول الاحتفال بالمولد خلاصته في قوله : (فتعظيم المولد، واتخاذه موسماً = قد يفعله بعض النّاس، ويكون له فيه أجر عظيم، لحسن قصده، وتعظيمه لرسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وصحبه وسلّم)

Zaikon:

Bro. I believe this will help



ذكر شيخ الاسلام ابن تيمية فى (اقتضاء الصراط المستقيم - 1/297) كلاما حول الاحتفال بالمولد خلاصته في قوله : (فتعظيم المولد، واتخاذه موسماً = قد يفعله بعض النّاس، ويكون له فيه أجر عظيم، لحسن قصده، وتعظيمه لرسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وصحبه وسلّم)

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah said in the hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that he had a great reward for the good of his intention and his zeal for the Messenger of Allah Peace be upon him and his family and companions

What the fu-ck purpose is this passage. supposed to serve? Are you nutts?

excanny:




What the fu-ck purpose is this passage. supposed to serve? Are you nutts?

I dnt do what u typed up there. Let's assume it a mistake from you for saying I'm fu-ck nd nutts.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah said in the hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that he had a great reward for the good of his intention and his zeal for the Messenger of Allah Peace be upon him and his family and companions

As for this , there is nothing like hadith of the prophet in I t. Just pure qaulul SHEIKH Ibn Taymiyya. And try to just coz what u posted this wasn't the true translation of the quote.

Allahu a'alam

Empiree:
Simple Answer


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP5qGJ08yB8

With a lot of respect, the answer is truly myopic

Empiree:
Oga, many things were invented post Nabi(saw) post sahab(ra). Today, we know a lot more than Sahaba in terms of studies. We read books of fiqh and shari'a. Sahaba knew nothing of fiqh. Figh started with tabi'n and tabi'n tabi'n. Despite this, Ta'bin didnt meet levels of sahaba. Why bcus, the presence of nabi(saw) amongst them was magnificent and sufficient.

So whrere did the the Tabi'in and Tab Tabi'in get their knowledge from?
If they did not get it from the Prophet and they are more knowledgeable than Sahabas, did they receive fresh revelations?

Empiree:
If you wake up sahaba from their graves today and show them books of fiqh, they would have no idea what it is, yet, fiqh is very useful and a good deed.

And so what?
If you show some sahabas the Qur'an in book form, a lot of them would not recognise it, because it was compiled after their death
But they know the contents because they memorised before they died

Empiree:
In fiqh today, you can hardly read mentions of sahaba or even nabi(saw). What you hear are the Imams. So i don't get the idea of "if sahaba didnt do it it is bid'a". Do you then consider figh which detail our worship an act of bid'ah?.

Are you talking about Shia Imams or the Imams of the Sunni Madhabs
If the former, they are not relevant to me as a Sunni
If you speak about the Sunni Imams like (Ahmad), kindly show me where they obtained knowledge without a chain including the sahabas

blacq2009:

So celebrating the best of creation in anyway is prohibited, huh? Wahabis and their hatred for Mustapha though. But for your information, Saudi is celebrating him this year. Salaamu alaykum warahmatullah wa barakatuh!

The best of creation, Muhammd (SAW), had all the opportunities when he was alive to prescribe how his birthday should be remembered but he did not
So you cannot blame the "wahabbis" for pointing that out
We should be asking why did (SAW)not instruct them to, and also when and how. Note that he (SAW) told them how to do a lot of other things including cutting of fingernails

As for hate, we know that not agreeing with Shias innovations and shirk-filled practices is hate.
Not celebrating the mawlid for which there is no directive or even tradition by the sahaba, tabiins and tabi tabiins cannot be used as a basis to accuse people of hate anyway

blacq2009:

Truth is bitter. But you served it whilst it's still hot. Three of the 'revered' sahabas were rubbing shoulders with the prophet. Then hadiths concocted to bring them at same par with the rasul.

Rubbing shoulders with the Prophet (SAW) and the Prophet (SAW) could not move against them?
He (SAW) lost control of the Army? Is that what you are implying? !!
You shias and your consistent lying
You never see your contradictions because of your lies

According to you Shias, Abu Bakr (RA) with the support of Umar (RA) usurped the right of Ali (RA) to become the first Khalif
When you ask the Shias why did Ali (RA) not fight them? The Shias would say because they (RAA) would have used the army to kill him (RA)
So where was this same Army when according to you "they (Ali, Umar and Uthman) were rubbing shoulders with the Prophet (SAW)"
Why did the Prophet (SAW) not use the Army to put them (RAA) in their place

blacq2009:
If only the ignorant majority knew they are following the sahabas at the expense of the rasul.

If only the people you are calling to Bid'ah knew that you Shias have the audacity to change the Adhan to include Ali's (RA) name in it!

blacq2009:
The innovations are innumerable. Come to talk of starting Fatihat without Bismillahi..., holding hands in prayer, aamin after Fatihat and performing ablution. May Allah guide us all to the truth. Aamin summa aamin.

Your books of hadith cannot stand up to the Sunni books of ahadeeth and you can talk about innovation
On what basis did you know what was done by the Prophet (SAW) and what was not?
On this same thread, you have been defending mawlid which was not done until hundreds of years after the death of the Prophet (SAW)

The Shia book that Khomeini calls the companion of the Qur'an (Nhajul Balagah) has no sound chain of narration

On this thread, you have praised innovation (mawlid). This is what you and Al Baqir have been waving at people, although the hadith mentioned that what was done was upon the instigation of the Prophet (SAW). You are silent about that since you want to mislead
Ironically, you have not quoted any of the numerous clear ahadeeth that warn against innovation

Jarir b. Abdullah reported that some desert Arabs clad in woollen clothes came to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ). He saw them in sad plight as they had been hard pressed by need. He (the Holy Prophet) exhorted people to give charity, but they showed some reluctance until (signs) of anger could be seen on his face. Then a person from the Ansar came with a purse containing silver. Then came another person and then other persons followed them in succession until signs of happiness could be seen on his (sacred) face. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said:

He who introduced some good practice in Islam which was followed after him (by people) he would be assured of reward like one who followed it, without their rewards being diminished in any respect. And he who introduced some evil practice in Islam which had been followed subsequently (by others), he would be required to bear the burden like that of one who followed this (evil practice) without their's being diminished in any respect.

But suddenly you have issues with folding arms, starting Fatiha with Bismillahi etc
You are in love with inserting the name of Ali (RA) in the Adhan, mawlid and most importantly asking your 12 Imams (rather than Allah) and ascribing divine attributes to your 12 imams. That is shirk anyway

So do you believe innovation is halal or haram?

You have quoted two ahadeeth so beloved of the Shias in their mission to sow doubts in the mind of people. Yes, of course, Shias love to "lament the ignorance of the ignorant majority"

And whenever you call on the dead, you use this to support your shirk (calling on other than Allah)

Aws b. has reported the Messenger of Allah (saw) as saying: "Among the most excellent of your days is Friday; so invoke many blessings on me on that day, for your blessing will be submitted to me." They (the Companions) asked: "Messenger of Allah (saw), how can our blessing be submitted to you when your body is decayed?" He (saw) said: "Allah (swt) has prohibited the earth from consuming the bodies of Prophets (a.s)."

Albani writes: Hadeeth is Saheeh (Authentic).
Source: Saheeh Sunan Aboo Dawood. Vol. 1, Pg. # 290, H. # 1047.

You said some Sahabas apostasised after the death of the Prophet (SAW) and the Prophet (SAW) did not know

Imām Muslim also records in his Ṣaḥīḥ, (Beirut: Dār Iḥyā al-Turāth al-‘Arabī) [annotator: Muḥammad Fuād ‘Abd al-
Bāqī], vol. 4, p. 1800, # 2304 (40):

"Muḥammad b. Ḥātim – ‘Affān b. Muslim al-Ṣaffār –Wuhayb – ‘Abd al-‘Azīz b. Ṣuhayb – Anas b. Mālik:

The Prophet, peace be upon him, said, “Some persons from among those who kept me company will meet me at the Lake-Fount. I will see them, and they will be presented to me. Then, they will be forced away from me. I will say: ‘O my Lord, my Ṣaḥābah! My Ṣaḥābah’. It will be said to me: ‘You do not know what they INNOVATED after you.’”

So is the Prophet (SAW) alive in his grave and able to hear when you call on him (SAW) or is he (SAW) dead and did not know the Sahabas he preached to apostsised?

BetaThings:


With a lot of respect, the answer is truly myopic

what's apparently white to some, it is black to other

BetaThings:


The best of creation, Muhammd (SAW), had all the opportunities when he was alive to prescribe how hi
s birthday should be remembered but he did not
So you cannot blame the "wahabbis" for pointing that out
We should be asking why did (SAW)not instruct them to, and also when and how. Note that he (SAW) told them how to do a lot of other things including cutting of fingernails

As for hate, we know that not agreeing with Shias innovations and shirk-filled practices is hate.
Not celebrating the mawlid for which there is no directive or even tradition by the sahaba, tabiins and tabi tabiins cannot be used as a basis to accuse people of hate anyway

Could you please explain to me why Harun, brother of Musah (As) kept mute when the children of Israel went astray worshipping the calf when Musah AS was away? Why didn't Harun fight the idolaters. I can go on and on from this your long epistle. Good day.