we are on this side of eternity! flee for your life

Hell-fire is real and unending. Its various descriptions in Scripture are nothing less than as found in Revelation 20:10 - those who are cast into the lake of fire shall be:

            TORMENTED

            DAY and NIGHT

            FOR EVER and EVER.

Jesus NEVER went to the LAKE of FIRE. He died for the salvation of man - that whosoever believes might NOT perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16.

@syrup,
You've weathered a lot, but intelligently articulated a lot on this subject. Good work - keep it going sista!!

, :d

shahan:

Hell-fire is real and unending. Its various descriptions in Scripture are nothing less than as found in Revelation 20:10 - those who are cast into the lake of fire shall be:

TORMENTED

DAY and NIGHT

FOR EVER and EVER.

Jesus NEVER went to the LAKE of FIRE. He died for the salvation of man - that whosoever believes might NOT perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16.

@syrup,
You've weathered a lot, but intelligently articulated a lot on this subject. Good work - keep it going sista!!

Shahan you have started your blind arguments again. I posted scriptures that backed up everythinh i said but u didnt bother to look at it

The bible defined the lake of fire as Death, not everlasting torture

Eternal fire that never stops burning was used to describe the destruction of Edom, Sodom and other cities.

Jesus went to hell, so did job and other faithfuls. The people in hell are dead not tormented

The basis of the christian faith which you claim to have is the resurrestion. The false doctrine of eternal torment contradicts it.

@Shaahan stop beign enslaved to false teachings perpetrated by demons. the bible is clear on this.

Im not suprised though. You fully support the morden day harlotry of the church against the principles of true christianity so this does not come as a suprise.

@sage,

sage:

Shahan you have started your blind arguments again. I posted scriptures that backed up everythinh i said but u didnt bother to look at it

My dear sir, I wonder why you are so quick to be accusative in your posts. Just to assure you, I indeed looked them up, and I'm sorry to note that you have flipped pages without seeking an understanding of what the texts say.

sage:

The bible defined the lake of fire as Death, not everlasting torture

The same Bible described the second death as being cast into "the lake of fire", so graphically that a careful reader will NOT miss the everlasting torment there:

Rev 20:10 & 14-15
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. . . And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

sage:

Eternal fire that never stops burning was used to describe the destruction of Edom, Sodom and other cities.

If you are referring to Jude 7, I beg to differ from those who don't know jot about the context there.

sage:

Jesus went to hell, so did job and other faithfuls. The people in hell are dead not tormented

Since death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14), I beg you sir, please bring me the verse that says Jesus went to THE LAKE OF FIRE, and argument will cease. As far as I know, Jesus did NOT go to that place prepared for the devil and his angels (". . . into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" - Matt. 25:41.

sage:

The basis of the christian faith which you claim to have is the resurrestion. The false doctrine of eternal torment contradicts it.

The supposed contradiction is contracted by those who struggle with the plain text of Scripture.

sage:

@Shaahan stop beign enslaved to false teachings perpetrated by demons. the bible is clear on this.

You are yet to demonstrate a clear understanding of the subject; so do you care to stop the shouting for a moment and take a second look, perhaps?

sage:

I'm not suprised though. You fully support the morden day harlotry of the church against the principles of true christianity so this does not come as a suprise.

No, my dear. Long ago I covenanted in my heart to God that small talk and snide remarks will not sway me.

Tara!

shahan:

@sage,

My dear sir, I wonder why you are so quick to be accusative in your posts. Just to assure you, I indeed looked them up, and I'm sorry to note that you have flipped pages without seeking an understanding of what the texts say.

The same Bible described the second death as being cast into "the lake of fire", so graphically that a careful reader will NOT miss the everlasting torment there:

Rev 20:10 & 14-15
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. . . And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

If you are referring to Jude 7, I beg to differ from those who don't know jot about the context there.

Since death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14), I beg you sir, please bring me the verse that says Jesus went to THE LAKE OF FIRE, and argument will cease. As far as I know, Jesus did NOT go to that place prepared for the devil and his angels (". . . into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" - Matt. 25:41.

The supposed contradiction is contracted by those who struggle with the plain text of Scripture.

You are yet to demonstrate a clear understanding of the subject; so do you care to stop the shouting for a moment and take a second look, perhaps?

No, my dear. Long ago I covenanted in my heart to God that small talk and snide remarks will not sway me.

Tara!

Can you please make a step by step analysis of my post in which i posted those scriptures. Now its no longer hellfire (now uve seen jesus went to hell too),its lake of fire.

Its not just Jude 7 that you are now trying to explain away my dear. The destruction of Edom was also likend to eternal fire. Il get the scriptures for you. Eternal anahilation is liken to eternal fire in the bible. It signifies destruction and not fire

It was never Gods plan to put people into fire and will never be.

Disprove those scriptures and stop trying to use rev 20:8 as hell fire. The bible defines the lake of fire as the second death. If hell fire were to be thrown into the lake of fire and both were fire, i wonder if the person orchastrating this is confused.

The bible shows that the people in hell are dead. So death(not a physical thing) and hell (u think its fire) will now be thrown into fire? hear yourself girl.

Rev 21:3,4 shows that death will be removed permanently. Would death now be thrown into literal fire.

Stop beign enslaved to demonic teachings and read the bible and stop tryind to say rev 20:8 = hellfire

Go through those scriptures i posted in my other post and try to explain them all away.

Its a pity he way the devil mires people in false teachings

well let me take a softer approach. Sometimes i feel i come on a lil to strong and i might be attacking the heart of the beliefs of many.

But i still want people to open their bibles and stop believing a lie.

@sage,

How bodi? Let's see what your latest entry says:

sage:

well let me take a softer approach. Sometimes i feel i come on a lil to strong and i might be attacking the heart of the beliefs of many.

But i still want people to open their bibles and stop believing a lie.

That's precisely what we would like you to do - open your own Bible and bring out a verse that says Jesus went to the place prepared for the devil and his angels - the LAKE OF FIRE!

sage:

Can you please make a step by step analysis of my post in which i posted those scriptures. Now its no longer hellfire (now uve seen jesus went to hell too), its lake of fire.

Not once did I dispute the "hell" in Acts 2:31; so trying to suggest I did simply is mute. My contention has been that the wicked are cast into the LAKE OF FIRE - and death and hell shall be cast there too (Rev. 20:14). A step by step analysis of your post would say nothing at the present as long as you've failed to see the distinction in others.

sage:

Its not just Jude 7 that you are now trying to explain away my dear. The destruction of Edom was also likend to eternal fire. Il get the scriptures for you.

I didn't offer you any explanations for Jude 7 other than simply stating that I don't pander to the weak force-fit of those who use it as an umpire's whistle for denying the reality of the final judgement.

sage:

Eternal anahilation is liken to eternal fire in the bible. It signifies destruction and not fire

Sorry, I'm not one of those who subscribe to the non-existent doctrine of annihilation - let alone the concept of "eternal annihilation". If annihilation, as you say, signifies destruction and not fire, then you have only mananged to expose your difficulty in accepting the clear statements of Scripture.

sage:

It was never Gods plan to put people into fire and will never be.

Rev. 20:15 -  "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

sage:

Disprove those scriptures and stop trying to use rev 20:8 as hell fire. The bible defines the lake of fire as the second death. If hell fire were to be thrown into the lake of fire and both were fire, i wonder if the person orchastrating this is confused.

I think the confusion would be minimised in your post if you follow clear statements and not introduce concepts through the back door. No one here has said that "HELL FIRE" would be thrown into the "LAKE OF FIRE!" Jesus did NOT go to HELL-FIRE, and Rev. 20:14 says simply "hell" will be cast into "the lake of fire". I don't remember having used Rev. 20:8 to imply anything in your supposition.

sage:

The bible shows that the people in hell are dead. So death(not a physical thing) and hell (u think its fire) will now be thrown into fire? hear yourself girl.

I hear you; but your strained supposition has no bearing in Scripture nor in my post. As above, please read Revelation 20:14.

sage:

Rev 21:3,4 shows that death will be removed permanently. Would death now be thrown into literal fire.

As above.

sage:

Stop beign enslaved to demonic teachings and read the bible and stop tryind to say rev 20:8 = hellfire

Again, I never used Rev. 20:8 to indicate your forced presumptions. Your problem seems to have been borne out of misreading posts, and I'm certain now that you follow the same trend in reading the Bible.

It is interesting to note that annihilationists are not even agreed among themselves. Some deny any concept of "fire/burning"; others affirm that there is a literal fire and burning. If your accusations hold, then those annihilationists who affirm a literal fire have been enlsaved to demonic teachings ab initio.

sage:

Go through those scriptures i posted in my other post and try to explain them all away.

'Explaining away' scripture is not my forte and i'll leave that to anyone interested in obliging you your pet wish. In anycase, I could offer you what my persuasions are on those verses, even though your best shot would be to deny them with endless arguments.

sage:

Its a pity he way the devil mires people in false teachings

Would that be taken as applying to your case?

@SHAHAN

YOU SEE THE REASON WHY THE EVANGELIST NEED TO PREACH ABOUT HELL? YOU SEE WHY WE HAVE TO SPEAK ABOUT SIN AND CONDEMNATION IN HELL FIRE THIS IS WHAT PRIMARILY A SINNER IS SAVED FROM NOT POVERTY AND PROSPERITY.

THAT IS WHY SO CALLED "CHRISTIANS" ARE TROOPING TO HELL SO YOU ATTEND A GOOD CHURCH AND YOU PROSPER PAY YOUR TITHE YOU MUST BE GOING TO HEAVEN.

SHAHAN THIS IS THE LAST DAYS I WANT YOU TO READ THIS BOOK

THE HORDES OF HELL 1 2 3 I HAVE POSTED THAT BOOK ON THIS PAGE

@Backslider,

Thanks for recommending the book posted - and I'll take time to read it through.

Indeed, we should be committed to warning everyone of the aweful judgement that will befall the wicked; and as far as the topic of this thread goes, we all are attempting to explicate the nature of the final judgement, as not many people understand the subject of eternal judgement.

On the other hand, I believe that the salvation which the Lord Jesus offers is all-inclusive. People are not saved in order to live desolate lives or wallow in penury. A good church is sine qua non to the spiritual growth of believers as she seeks the well-being of her members.

Yet, I would have to agree with you that material prosperity is NOT the ticket to heaven. What saves a person is faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work; and there is NO other Name whereby people must be saved (Acts 4:12).

@SHAHAN
THIS PASSAGE TELL US HOW KING AHAB WAS LOOKING THE PROPHESY OF PROSPERITY AND VICTORY (we have this nowadays) HE WANT PROPHETS THAT PROPHESIED WHAT HE WANT TO HERE.

THIS PEOPLE WANT YOU TO TELL THEM THAT THERE IS NO HELL OR HELL FIRE. THIS ARE THE TIMES PEOPLE WILL QUESTION GOD EXISTENCE WITH GREAT REBELION.

WE ARE NOT IN THE GOOD DAYS OF PURE CHRISTIANITY.

WILL IT SURPRISE YOU THAT IT WAS ONLY MICAIAH THAT SPOKE THE MIND OF GOD. GOD GAVE THEM A LYING SPIRIT TO WORSHIP THIS SPIRIT IS IN MOST CHARISMATIC CIRCLES AND PENTECOSTAL.

SIN AND GO TO HEAVEN OR THERE IS NO HELL.

IF THERE IS NO HELL THEN GOD IS NOT GOD

I DON'T CARE IF THERE IS A HEAVEN OR NOT BUT I KNOW I WANT TO BE IN THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST FOR ETERNITY.


2CHRON 18
9And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah sat either of them on his throne, clothed in their robes, and they sat in a void place at the entering in of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets prophesied before them.

10And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah had made him horns of iron, and said, Thus saith the LORD, With these thou shalt push Syria until they be consumed.

11And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.

12And the messenger that went to call Micaiah spake to him, saying, Behold, the words of the prophets declare good to the king with one assent; let thy word therefore, I pray thee, be like one of their's, and speak thou good.

13And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, even what my God saith, that will I speak.

14And when he was come to the king, the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And he said, Go ye up, and prosper, and they shall be delivered into your hand.

15And the king said to him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou say nothing but the truth to me in the name of the LORD?

16Then he said, I did see all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master; let them return therefore every man to his house in peace.

17And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would not prophesy good unto me, but evil?

18Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.

19And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.

20Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?

21And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

22Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

23Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near, and smote Micaiah upon the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?

24And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see on that day when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself.

@Backslider,

Backslider:

@SHAHAN
THIS PASSAGE TELL US HOW KING AHAB WAS LOOKING THE PROPHESY OF PROSPERITY AND VICTORY (we have this nowadays) HE WANT PROPHETS THAT PROPHESIED WHAT HE WANT TO HERE.

THIS PEOPLE WANT YOU TO TELL THEM THAT THERE IS NO HELL OR HELL FIRE. THIS ARE THE TIMES PEOPLE WILL QUESTION GOD EXISTENCE WITH GREAT REBELION.

WE ARE NOT IN THE GOOD DAYS OF PURE CHRISTIANITY.

Thanks Backslider. I can relate with what you have stated - and believe me, there are more shocking denials made today by a lot of people within the Christian Church.

Backslider:

I DON'T CARE IF THERE IS A HEAVEN OR NOT BUT I KNOW I WANT TO BE IN THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST FOR ETERNITY.

I think you should care enough to know that there IS a heaven - for being with Jesus does not mean much without caring about WHERE it is we shall be with Him.

Hi Y'All,

Whilst continuing in my daily study meditation, lot's of scriptures have been speaking to me very deeply on this and I must confess that I am been led even more towards eternal destruction as opposed to eternal torment.

I'll try and find time to articulate some of what I'm hearing, but I'm enjoying the discussion so far.

One thing I had never thought about much was the immortality of the soul. This is sounding less and less like a Christian notion the more I read.

I think "immortality of the soul" is core to the doctrine of eternal torment but It's something worth claryfing in it's own right.

I think scripture talks about immortality as something to come, not something we already have, as I believe the following scriptures all attest to;

Romans 2:7 - eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

1 Corinthians 15:53 - For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 - So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

1Timothy 6:16 - who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

2 Timothy 1:10 - but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

I see nothing that can even remotely be read as eternal torment before the Revelations 20:10. Do hell and death burn forever as well?

I am not convinced that death is meant to mean anything other than cessation of life. Whilst I accept that death is on occasion used figuratively in scripture, I don't think it's import is such in relation to eternal judgement.

Likewise attempting to pass of eternal life and/or everlasting life as not being about life (immortality?) per se, but about the quality of that life, is to me as tenuous an arguement as the one about death.

Also with regards to Jude 7, I think this speaks even more to eternal destruction as opposed to eternal torment when read in conjunction with 2 Peter 2:6.

2 Peter 2:6 - and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Jude 1:7 - as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

I think this clearly outlines the fact that it was the finality (irrevocability) and means (unquenchable fire) of the judgment that were eternal in nature and not the actual length of the judgment itself. Which of course was death (destruction, perishing, consuming).

Loads more questions, but it's good to talk. Thanks

God bless

@TV01,

Let me help you a bit more.

TV01:

Whilst continuing in my daily study meditation, lot's of scriptures have been speaking to me very deeply on this and I must confess that I am been led even more towards eternal destruction as opposed to eternal torment.

What exactly is meant by "eternal destruction" and "eternal torment"? I think most people who have a problem with Revelation 20:10 easily accept the annihilation/destruction doctrine without a moment's consideration for the "torment" in that verse.

TV01:

One thing I had never thought about much was the immortality of the soul. This is sounding less and less like a Christian notion the more I read.

I can understand why people feel the way you do on this. In just the same way, there's no such teaching in the Bible as annihilation.

TV01:

I think "immortality of the soul" is core to the doctrine of eternal torment but It's something worth claryfing in it's own right.

Aye.

TV01:

I think scripture talks about immortality as something to come, not something we already have, as I believe the following scriptures all attest to;

Romans 2:7 - eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

1 Corinthians 15:53 - For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 - So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

1Timothy 6:16 - who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

2 Timothy 1:10 - but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

It all depends on what you understand those verses to be pointing to or implying by immortality.

TV01:

I see nothing that can even remotely be read as eternal torment before the Revelations 20:10.

I'll urge you to keep reading and perhaps you might see that more than being mentioned 'remotely', the Lord Jesus categorically made it clear that there's such a thing as eternal torment:

Matt. 25:41 & 46 - "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. . .And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Mark 9:43-44 - "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Luke 16:23-24 - "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

TV01:

Do hell and death burn forever as well?

Do you remember that Death and Hell were personified in Rev. 6:8? "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

TV01:

I am not convinced that death is meant to mean anything other than cessation of life. Whilst I accept that death is on occasion used figuratively in scripture, I don't think it's import is such in relation to eternal judgement.

Perhaps the reason for such a position is borne out of an unwillingness to look into the clear statements in the Revelation verses. The passages there do NOT teach "cessation of life" as long as those cast into the lake of fire experience "torment".

TV01:

Likewise attempting to pass of eternal life and/or everlasting life as not being about life (immortality?) per se, but about the quality of that life, is to me as tenuous an arguement as the one about death.

Aye.

TV01:

Also with regards to Jude 7, I think this speaks even more to eternal destruction as opposed to eternal torment when read in conjunction with 2 Peter 2:6.

2 Peter 2:6 - and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Jude 1:7 - as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

I think this clearly outlines the fact that it was the finality (irrevocability) and means (unquenchable fire) of the judgment that were eternal in nature and not the actual length of the judgment itself. Which of course was death (destruction, perishing, consuming).

The one question I would like to ask about this idea that Jude 7 points to finality of judgement: Will the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah escape the FINAL Judgement in Revelation 20:12-13?

Doesn't the word "eternal destruction" sound self-contradictory??

gbade. x:

Doesn't the word "eternal destruction" sound self-contradictory??

As does sage's "eternal annihilation".

Can someone please tell me what Jesus meant by the word "perish" in John 3:16?

@ Gbade

Doesn't the word "eternal destruction" sound self-contradictory??

Not really! What if we said instead, destroyed eternally, would it make a difference? Let me give an example. If you burn a piece of paper with fire, and finally the paper is totally consumed, could we safely say that the effect of the fire was eternal? Hence we could also say that the destruction by the fire was also eternal. In other words the destruction cannot be reversed, just as how the paper could not have been brought back.

That is exactly how Jude meant it when he described how the fire destroyed Sodom. Mark you we are not quite accustomed to that kind of parlance, but they perhaps did, and that is why we must take into account both the context and style of bible writers.

We cannot always rely on translations, because in all honesty some translators are dishonest, while some may have had difficulty translating idiomatic expressions. All of these factors we have to bear in mind when coming accross difficult passages.

Anyway you choose to view the matter, the fact is the weight of evidence of scriptures, supports a final and total destruction of the wicked.

@ sage

The problem Sage is their mis-understanding of the expression "everlasting punishment" The tendency is to associate that phrase with torment. In actual fact that phrase should be attributed to the final death. So in essence no one would be able to come back after they finally die.

Note also that part of that punishment is experienced by the wicked mentally as well as emotionally when they realize that they would be denied eternal life. So emotionally and physically they are tormented for awhile until the fire does its work completely.

Another of the phrase that bothers them is the one speaking of "unquenchable fire" Unquenchable to them means unending, but in reality it simply means that no power would be able to stop it from doing its work. No power outside of God would be able to stop it.

@ Bobbyaf:

please don't miscontrue or misinterprete "eternal destruction" as something else. The word "eternal destruction", in the very context of this issue is LITERAL.

If you burn a piece of paper, the flames die out at the end of a day. Destruction of any kind, be it, fiery or whatever, has a beginning and an end. So putting the word "eternal" only makes it contradictory as the word "eternal" means never ending.

Destruction can't take place if it never ends. . .

I meant to say the papers turn to ashes and the flames die out. . .

I Marvel At your theology

YET STILL IT SAYS DAY AND NIGHT

IT SAYS HE DECLARED THERE SHOULD BE TIME NO LONGER

THE HIDDEN TRUTH OF THE MYSTERIES OF GOD TRULY THOU HAS GIVING THEM A LYING AS YOU DID TO AHAB

Just like I said earlier, even the proponents of the doctrine of annihilation are deeply disagreed among themselves on what they actually believe. Sample these:

Denials of Punishment by fire:

sage:

It was never Gods plan to put people into fire and will never be.

sage:

. . . and Jeremiah showsthat the loving God clearly has no intentions of putting his creation into fire, . . .

Affirmation of Punishment by Fire:

Bobbyaf:

The wicked. . .will be [color=990000]burned up until[/color] they will be ashes under the soles of your feet.

Bobbyaf:

Here we see without a moment's doubt that Satan will be devoured by God's specially prepared fire. Notice that Satan will become ashes, literally. Notice too that this fire shall start burning from within Satan.

Bobbyaf:

So emotionally and physically they are tormented for awhile until the fire does its work completely.

The problem many people have with reading issues in the Bible is simply that they cannot receive the divine declarations as stated. There has got to be a middle course somewhere that offers them a pivot for their supposed denials and re-interpretations.


@gbade. x

gbade. x:

Doesn't the word "eternal destruction" sound self-contradictory??

In retrospect, I was being facetious earlier. I believe the Bible mentions such concepts as 'everlasting destruction' (II Thes. 1:9), 'everlasting judgment' (Heb. 6:2), 'eternal damnation' (Mark 3:29); and 'everlasting punishment' (Matt. 25:46) - and in themselves they are not contradictory. This is not the case with sage's idea of "eternal annihilation" as annihilation is nowhere taught in Scripture.

Perhaps Bobbyaf did not quite catch the gist of those phrases, and had supposed they point to a limited time:

Bobbyaf:

So emotionally and physically they are tormented for awhile until the fire does its work completely.

Any careful reader of Revelation 20:10 will immediately notice how that verse is being denied by Bobbyaf's statement above. The Bible does not suggest at all that they are "tormented for a while until . . ." What the verse does say is that they "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever!"

Does "day and night for ever and ever" sound like "a while until"?? What is the correlation between the two??

shahan:

Just like I said earlier, even the proponents of the doctrine of annihilation are deeply disagreed among themselves on what they actually believe. Sample these:

1. Let the discussion rest on it's merits. I don't believe anyone is taking a position just for the sake of arguement.
2. We all have different ways of articulating, it is not hard to see what Sage means. If you are not sure, please ask!
3. Can we keep this to the scriptural merits or otherwise of the points raised and not venture into the ad-hominem.

shahan:

The problem many people have with reading issues in the Bible is simply that they cannot receive the divine declarations as stated. There has got to be a middle course somewhere that offers them a pivot for their supposed denials and re-interpretations.

It's not your place to perjoratively label maturity, understanding or leading that differs from yours, even if you are 100% correct. Like I said.

Shahan wrote;
What exactly is meant by "eternal destruction" and "eternal torment"? I think most people who have a problem with Revelation 20:10 easily accept the annihilation/destruction doctrine without a moment's consideration for the "torment" in that verse.

My response;
Again, like I said.

Who said anyone has a problem with it? I don't deny or overlook it's presence. There is a dissonance between my reading of scripture up until this verse. It would be dishonest to re-interprete or ignore my whole reading up till this point on the basis of the one verse/section of scripture.

My initial default position after becoming a Christian (and even as an unbeliever) was eternal torment. I had no questions about it as such. But after scrutinising related scriptures and doctrines ("immortality of the soul", destruction, death, eternal life etc), I have cause to question it.

Shahan wrote;
I can understand why people feel the way you do on this. In just the same way, there's no such teaching in the Bible as annihilation.

My response;
What exactly do you understand and how? And why do you assume my position is driven by feeling? There is an almost overwhelming weight of scripture that suggests eternal destruction for the wicked. Especially when one properly aligns, death, eternal life, immortality and other doctrines that tie closely into this.

Shahan wrote;
It all depends on what you understand those verses to be pointing to or implying by immortality.

My response;
We'd all appreciate if you outline your understanding of those verses.

Shahan wrote;
I'll urge you to keep reading and perhaps you might see that more than being mentioned 'remotely', the Lord Jesus categorically made it clear that there's such a thing as eternal torment:

My response;
Firstly, I don't see eternal torment necessarily implied in the scriptures quoted. That is your reading of it.

Matthew 25:Everlasting fire ~ Means just that, fire that cannot be quenched until it fully consumes. This is clearly outlined in 2 Peter 2:6 & Jude 7.

Likewise Everlasting punishment is easily understood as an irrevocable judgment. The second death is final, from which there will be no ressurrection or further pardon, hence the judgment handed down is final, eternal.

Mark  9: As above.

Luke 16: Even if one adopts a literal interpretation to this parable, there is nothing to suggest that the time spent by the wicked in hell is eternal. Is there anything, anywhere in scripture to suggest that Abrahams bosom is heaven?

The rich man arrayed in "purple" almost certainly represents the rich law bound priestly elite, whilst Lazarus typifies the poor/gentiles who have Abrahams faith. It's a parable. Jesus was demonstrating to the stiff-necked, hard-headed, religious jews that the KOG was being opened up to the nations.

The notion that the grave has two distinct parts one for the wicked and one for the righteous is nowhere portrayed in the bible. It is from old Jewish lore. One that The Lord used to make a point.

Shahan wrote;
Do you remember that Death and Hell were personified in Rev. 6:8? "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

My response;
This does not butress your position. Personified or literal, they are both cast into the lake of fire to be consumed.

Shahan wrote;
Perhaps the reason for such a position is borne out of an unwillingness to look into the clear statements in the Revelation verses. The passages there do NOT teach "cessation of life" as long as those cast into the lake of fire experience "torment".

My response;
Suppose all you will, it changes nothing. If I was "unwilling to look" as you suggest, I would have stuck with all my default or recieved positions. Passages elsewhere clearly teach that death is just that. If there is no cessation of life, what need ressurection?

Shahan wrote;
The one question I would like to ask about this idea that Jude 7 points to finality of judgement: Will the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah escape the FINAL Judgement in Revelation 20:12-13?

My response;
Surely it can't be hard to see that the "example" that God made of S&G is exactly a type of what the 2nd death would be. Final, eternal, unchangeable, irrevocable.

Presumably you can read eternal torment into the "example" of S&G. I would appreciate your doing so, be it, literally or figuratively.

In as much as you purported to be trying to help, thanks.

God bless

@Shahan and TV01
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Correct there

Hell: is the abode of the devil that is where he keeps the lost waitin eternal hell fire(lake of Fire)

Death: the disconnection of the spirit of God(breath) from the soul and body of man.

THE Lake of Fire: is the Final Judgment of SATAN , DEMONS(fallen Angels) AND ALL SINNERS

HELL IS NOT ENTERNAL. THE LAKE OF FIRE IS ENTERNAL.

@ Gblade

@ Bobbyaf:

please don't miscontrue or misinterprete "eternal destruction" as something else. The word "eternal destruction", in the very context of this issue is LITERAL.

I don't think I did. I am trying to explain what the word everlasting means in the context as its used in qualifing punishment. I agree that the act of destruction is literalI, but its the result of the destruction that is everlasting. In otherwords those who die in hell will never come back, period.

If you burn a piece of paper, the flames die out at the end of a day. Destruction of any kind, be it, fiery or whatever, has a beginning and an end. So putting the word "eternal" only makes it contradictory as the word "eternal" means never ending.

That would depend on how the word is used, and its context. If you were to take the fire in Jude's remarks to be literally eternal then it means the fire would still be burning. You and I know its not. Should e blame Jude for using the wrong word, or should we blame the translators for their difficulty in dealing with idiomatic expressions?

Destruction can't take place if it never ends. . .

We already know that Gblade, and you don't seem to realize that we are on the same side where the topic is concerned, but because the problem rests with the phrases forever and ever and everlasting when they are used idiomatically, we are now left in a position to have to explain why such words must be seen in their particular context.

So my burning-paper example above was just to show that the destructive effect of the fire is eternal , and not the fire itself.

@ Shahan

Any careful reader of Revelation 20:10 will immediately notice how that verse is being denied by Bobbyaf's statement above. The Bible does not suggest at all that they are "tormented for a while until . . ." What the verse does say is that they "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever!"

Does "day and night for ever and ever" sound like "a while until"?? What is the correlation between the two??

In all honesty Shahan an exposition was given on what Revelation 20:10 really means in the light of how the early writers used their words, or how they expressed themselves idiomatically.

It was already explained to the fora, and possibly you if you read it, that the phrase forever and ever is a faulty translation. No honest greek student including myself, could possibly walk away accepting that translation of forever and ever, when what was meant was "from ages unto the ages when we stop to consider that the original phrase existed in the plural.

The reality is the true expression as found in the greek as it pertains to the wicked points to periods of time, and not eternity. The strange thing is is that you will accept that phrase to be limited when it is used to describe the limited life of a slave as used by Moses, but you fail to see the context of Revelation 20:10 to be the same.

As I have said so many times if a few passages seem to run contradictory to the weight of evidence of those scriptures that point to a literal and final destruction of the wicked, then why struggle with a few difficult passages just to prove a point?

Please find those translations that give the proper rendition of the greek, and stop confining yourself to a traditional version that may have been faulty translated in some instances. You have to read between the lines.

@Bobbyaf,

It was already explained to the fora, and possibly you if you read it, that the phrase forever and ever is a faulty translation. No honest greek student including myself, could possibly walk away accepting that translation of forever and ever, when what was meant was "from ages unto the ages when we stop to consider that the original phrase existed in the plural.

Assuming I accept this your explanantion, how do I explain away Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. If everlasting contempt is for a period, then we must accept that everlasting life is also for a period.

So my burning-paper example above was just to show that the destructive effect of the fire is eternal , and not the fire itself.

This is a very bad example to butress your point. Do you realise the fire feeds off of the paper and it quenches as soon as the paper is all gone? That does not make the fire an eternal one does it?

Matthew 25:Everlasting fire ~ Means just that, fire that cannot be quenched until it fully consumes. This is clearly outlined in 2 Peter 2:6 & Jude 7.  Likewise Everlasting punishment is easily understood as an irrevocable judgment. The second death is final, from which there will be no ressurrection or further pardon, hence the judgment handed down is final, eternal.

Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life This passage is clear about what awaits the condemned ones - torment.  Even if we regard the everlasting to mean for a time period, the word punishment does not mean annihilation by any stretch of its use.  That same word is used in 1 John 4:18 and it does not suggests anything close to anihilation.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.   The problem I have with your interpretation of this verse is that you suggest S&G have already gone through a judgment that is yet in the future.  If indeed the eternal fire consumes until anihilation, why would Jesus say that S&G will still be up for judgment according to Matthew 10:15 - Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
My understanding of the eternal fire as used in Jude is found in Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. This scripture tells us what makes the fire eternal - it is from heaven.  That fire is different from the once that we know simply because of the source.

Luke 16: Even if one adopts a literal interpretation to this parable, there is nothing to suggest that the time spent by the wicked in hell is eternal. Is there anything, anywhere in scripture to suggest that Abrahams bosom is heaven?

The wicked can't spend eternity in hell because hell itself is not eternal. The lake of fire is eternal. Abraham's bossom is not in heaven, but actually in the ground like hell or hades. Remember it was actually side by side with hades. Howver, the occupants of abraham's bossom have now been moved to heaven when Jesus ascended.

TayoD:

Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life This passage is clear about what awaits the condemned ones - torment. Even if we regard the everlasting to mean for a time period, the word punishment does not mean annihilation by any stretch of its use. That same word is used in 1 John 4:18 and it does not suggests anything close to anihilation.

Selective highlighting serves only to emphasise, and no prove your point.
The word means a time period which can be finite or infinite. Let the context determine which.
The judgment is eternal/everlasting. No return from this one. Like they say, no repentance in the grave.
If you read 1 John 4:18 to read punishment or torment, it does not mean for all eternity

TayoD:

Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the [color=#990000]Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. The problem I have with your interpretation of this verse is that you suggest S&G have already gone through a judgment that is yet in the future.

That judgement was in the past. The tense is unmistakeable. Further, it was a type of that which is to come. There will be a final judgement. After which you go into life eternal (and it's rewards) or death eternal (after your punishment). That is utterly consumed just like S&G where.

TayoD:

Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life This passage is clear about what awaits the condemned ones - torment. Even if we regard the everlasting to mean for a time period, the word punishment does not mean annihilation by any stretch of its use. That same word is used in 1 John 4:18 and it does not suggests anything close to anihilation.

My understanding of the eternal fire as used in Jude is found in [color=#990000]Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. This scripture tells us what makes the fire eternal - it is from heaven. That fire is different from the once that we know simply because of the source.

You are nullifying your own arguement here?
The fire after the final judgement will have it's source likewise from Heaven. Please tell me does that attest to destruction or eternal torment?

TayoD:

The wicked can't spend eternity in hell because hell itself is not eternal. The lake of fire is eternal. Abraham's bossom is not in heaven, but actually in the ground like hell or hades. Remember it was actually side by side with hades. Howver, the occupants of abraham's bossom have now been moved to heaven when Jesus ascended.

Your explanation and location of "Abraham Bosom" sounds like you plucked it from thin air? Sheol/Hell whatever, are just expressions for the grave. The dead sleep. The parable was figurative. Are there humans in Heaven right now? Please outline something to attest to that.

If all the wicked are tormented in an eternally burning lake. Does that not mean that their is one punishment for all? Or will you have different tempretures? Or would you refute the notion that the bible declares punishment based on transgression? He renders to each according to their works?

God bless

The rich man arrayed in "purple" almost certainly represents the rich law bound priestly elite, whilst Lazarus typifies the poor/gentiles who have Abrahams faith. It's a parable. Jesus was demonstrating to the stiff-necked, hard-headed, religious jews that the KOG was being opened up to the nations.

I have stated before that this is not a parable but a lesson of history. Here are some reasons why I hold to this belief:

1.  Jesus never mentions a name in his parables. He almost always starts his parables with the statement: the KOG is like ,

2.  Jesus used the word "certain" in describing the rich man and Lazarus. This is a definite article that indicates he had particular people in mind.  See verses 19 There was a certain rich man;  20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,. Jesus was essentially saying there was a particular rich man and  there was a particular beggar.

3.  In starting this parable, Jesus began by with the phrase: "There was", which shows He was talking about an event that took place.

The notion that the grave has two distinct parts one for the wicked and one for the righteous is nowhere portrayed in the bible. It is from old Jewish lore. One that The Lord used to make a point.

Actually, the grave has 3 dinstict parts:

1. Hades - where the unrighteous dead are held for a while. You can liken it to Alagbon which is a detention center before being sent to kirikiri (lake of fire). This is the place refered to as hell by most people.

2. Abraham's Bossom - where the righteous dead used to rest before Jesus moved them up with Him to heaven  Ephesians 4:8 - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now when the righteous sleep, they are imediately transported to heaven - 2 Corinthains 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

3. Tatarus - This I believe, is the lowest part of the land of the dead where the angels who sinned in the times of Noah are kept till the judgment time - 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. . The location where they have been kept is called Tatarus and it is found in 2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; . the word translated Hell in 2 peter 2:4 is actually the greek word trasliterated as Tatarus.

Apart from the above proofs, the Bible clearly teaches that Hell has several parts: Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?. The greek word translated as parts can be better translated as "compartments".

The fact that Hell is below the ground is also taught by other scriptures as Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath , and like I said previously, hell and abraham's Bosom are in different compartments below the ground by the sheer proximity we see of both in the story about Lazarus.

TV01 and TAYOD

RELAX YOU ARE BOTH SAYING THE SAME THING.