The simple and straight answer is No

Well on this board people probably are too rigid in thinking, others perhaps are forced to walk same faulty straight line in thought.

Here, it is seen as evolution VS design. These are the two lines and none overlaps, none crosses the other.

But as this post is meant to argue, design doesn't really negate evolution neither does evolution negate design.

This post probably is to the advantage of those who argue for a designed world or man.

When we say Evolution it simply means development, modifications, transition.

Now my point on the post isn't too much to grasp, all you need is a basic thought on the nature of design.

Go through every form of design you know on earth, its a constant story of a long lingering evolution.

The first computers were simple abacus, I think that'd go further to the first counting stones but today the computer have grown to be so sophisticated that it looks totally different from its ancestors.

Or perhaps a look at Mercedes Benz of 1930s and that of today.

They look nothing alike.

The Mercedes Benz designs and functionalities have evolved through the years.

Or perhaps the mobile phone through the ages.

There are no design that do no go through consistent stage of modifications/evolution.

Evolution is in fact a tool of design.

So when ever I observe the arguments here and it seems to be a well pronounced line of Evolution vs design, it bemoans the lack of debth in many individuals method of thinking.

Evolution do not negate design, as a matter of fact if God or a creator made humans or everything, it appeals to logic that these designs also goes through stages of development and modifications of existing designs.

Let anyone who wish to argue fully understand the position they wish to argue on, matters of such magnitude have more debth than just left and right wing.

There are probably 3 catergories of designers.

1. A designer who makes something and leaves it. (At that specific format)

2. A designer who makes something, from time to time makes repairs and modifications on his designs.

3. A designer who gives his designs the ability to self repair and modify over time..


Humans are currently level two designers, the goal of our technological adventure is to reach the third level of design.

Take our recent ventures into artificial intelligence (as a branch of computer science) for example.

We no longer need a computer that acts on our inputed data but one that thinks, assimilate data, modify, grow, adapt and evolve neurologically.

Of these design categories, which would you say God is?

1, 2 or 3

Jackbizzle, hopefullandlord

johnydon22:
There are probably 3 catergories of designers.

1. A designer who makes something and leaves it. (At that specific format)

2. A designer who makes something, from time to time makes repairs and modifications on his designs.

3. A designer who gives his designs the ability to self repair and modify over time..


Humans are currently level two designers, the goal of our technological adventure is to reach the third level of design.

Take our recent ventures into artificial intelligence (as a branch of computer science) for example.

We no longer need a computer that acts on our inputed data but one that thinks, assimilate data, modify, grow, adapt and evolve neurologically.

Of these design categories, which would you say God is?

1, 2 or 3

can you elucidate on the number 3?

Following...

johnydon22:
There are probably 3 catergories of designers.

1. A designer who makes something and leaves it. (At that specific format)

2. A designer who makes something, from time to time makes repairs and modifications on his designs.

3. A designer who gives his designs the ability to self repair and modify over time..


Humans are currently level two designers, the goal of our technological adventure is to reach the third level of design.

Take our recent ventures into artificial intelligence (as a branch of computer science) for example.

We no longer need a computer that acts on our inputed data but one that thinks, assimilate data, modify, grow, adapt and evolve neurologically.

Of these design categories, which would you say God is?

1, 2 or 3

All

1. It's obvious that if there is a God then we all are abandoned creatures. God must have created the universe (particularly our solar system) in a haste and must have forgotten or so busy with a lot of stuff that he didn't perceive that intelligent being like humans happen to exist on planet earth.

2. The coming of Jesus Christ is a very good example. God realized a faulty human-like creature and decided to come visit earth in their form, in order to modify them and start with them afresh. The afterlife ish also prove this.

3.This is so obvious to everyone as our careless creator has abandon us with the woeful problems that life presented to us. We wake up everyday facing unending struggles and challenges. We gradually evolve both in our use of intellectual faculty, emotional Intelligence and in relationship with our immediate world and environment.

Many possibilities exist
1. It's either there is a God who happen to have abandoned us
2. A God who knew that we exist but doesn't care about us, deliberately or probably because he has too many planets to worry about.
3. A God who only consider earth and our solar system as an impractical model of what a real planet or solar system should look like
4. A God who lack all the characteristics of a father or doesn't meet the criteria
5. A partial God
6. A God that has now become an inferior version of what he created
7. A God that sees human as a competition
8. A God that can't do or live without human
9. A God that was only written about by our ancestors just to pass over time.
10. Our ancestors hyped imaginations

The tragedy here is that we all were told and indoctrinated with the same fables, but at a certain time, some start putting their brain to use.

I use this opportunity to say that in the year 2018 and beyond, we will experience the sudden death of religion in Nigeria, science will stand a chance to reign, more churches and mosques demolish, more industries taking place, companies littered everywhere, more firms on our street, adults using their brain, no more doom saying of going back to farming by our politicians and prophets, people going into IT, more automaths, more polymaths among us, more inventors, no more tithing, donations to IT firms, apprehension of pastopreneurs, constructions of our political system and most expecially the rise of Gods insignificance.

Happy new year.

hopefulLandlord:


can you elucidate on the number 3?

The third is the highest level of design capabilities. Instead of coming from time to time to make repairs or modifications, such a designer imbues on his creation the ability to grow and adapt, self repair and arrange, develop and modify totally independently

johnydon22:


The third is the highest level of design capabilities. Instead of coming from time to time to make repairs or modifications, such a designer imbues on his creation the ability to grow and adapt, self repair and arrange, develop and modify totally independently

okay, I'll chose 3 then, just wanted some more explanations so I don't jump the gun

johnydon22:

So when ever I observe the arguments here and it seems to be a well pronounced line of Evolution vs design, it bemoans the lack of debth in many individuals method of thinking.

fair enough but we need to understand what those arguing for design are really arguing for cuz they're most times Abrahamic religionists who say the creator designed in one rigid way and any other way isn't "design" as it goes against what they think they know the creator supposedly did

Basically, Design = Adam and Eve and any other "design" isn't true

take Christianity for instance
Without Adam and Eve . . . you have no disobedience based on them eating the fruit from the wrong tree.
Without this disobedience -- called " original sin " -- you have NO reason for "God" to later send a "Redeemer" for the human race . . . and that Redeemer = Jesus. Without Jesus, you have no basis for Christianity. . . . of course, some Christians now say the creation story is "allegorical" but that creates a slippery slope where everything after it could've also just been allegorical and it gets even worse when one asks them where the "allegory" stopped and the true story started, the most funny part is seeing the same Christians who say the creation is allegorical still grab unto literal interpretation in another discussion when it's convenient

be back in a bit

hopefulLandlord:


fair enough but we need to understand what those arguing for design are really arguing for cuz they're most times Abrahamic religionists who say the creator designed in one rigid way and any other way isn't "design" as it goes against what they think they know the creator supposedly did

Yes that is the purpose of the question, to understand the type of design those who argue for design have in mind. I just want to explore their ideas on design and God.

and also clear the air on the evolution vs design saga, both doesn't necessarily preclude the other.

Basically, Design = Adam and Eve and any other "design" isn't true

take Christianity for instance
Without Adam and Eve . . . you have no disobedience based on them eating the fruit from the wrong tree.
Without this disobedience -- called " original sin " -- you have NO reason for "God" to later send a "Redeemer" for the human race . . . and that Redeemer = Jesus. Without Jesus, you have no basis for Christianity. . . .

Sounds like a design flaw needing modification to me

of course, some Christians now say the creation story is "allegorical" but that creates a slippery slope where everything after it could've also just been allegorical and it gets even worse when one asks them where the "allegory" stopped and the true story started

If the creation story, Adam and Eve saga were to be allegories, it totally invalidates the sacrifice of Jesus.

Because that'd mean Jesus came to die for an allegory?

johnydon22:


The third is the highest level of design capabilities. Instead of coming from time to time to make repairs or modifications, such a designer imbues on his creation the ability to grow and adapt, self repair and arrange, develop and modify totally independently

Is this designer a perfect one?

tintingz:
Is this designer a perfect one?

No.

Just highly advanced. For the fact there is room for his creations to modify and change, evolved and repair shows a lingering flaw in every evolving model.

Perfection has no room for modification as it is the precise concept.

johnydon22:


No.

Just highly advanced. For the fact there is room for his creations to modify and change, evolved and repair shows a lingering flaw in every evolving model.

Perfection has no room for modification as it is the precise concept.

Ok, i get it now.

johnydon22:


The third is the highest level of design capabilities. Instead of coming from time to time to make repairs or modifications, such a designer imbues on his creation the ability to grow and adapt, self repair and arrange, develop and modify totally independently

Artificial intelligence..... Fifth computer generation will support that when it is finally developed

johnydon22:
The simple and straight answer is No

Well on this board people probably are too rigid in thinking, others perhaps are forced to walk same faulty straight line in thought.

Here, it is seen as evolution VS design. These are the two lines and none overlaps, none crosses the other.

But as this post is meant to argue, design doesn't really negate evolution neither does evolution negate design.

This post probably is to the advantage of those who argue for a designed world or man.

When we say Evolution it simply means development, modifications, transition.

Now my point on the post isn't too much to grasp, all you need is a basic thought on the nature of design.

Go through every form of design you know on earth, its a constant story of a long lingering evolution.

The first computers were simple abacus, I think that'd go further to the first counting stones but today the computer have grown to be so sophisticated that it looks totally different from its ancestors.

Or perhaps a look at Mercedes Benz of 1930s and that of today.

They look nothing alike.

The Mercedes Benz designs and functionalities have evolved through the years.

Or perhaps the mobile phone through the ages.

There are no design that do no go through consistent stage of modifications/evolution.

Evolution is in fact a tool of design.

So when ever I observe the arguments here and it seems to be a well pronounced line of Evolution vs design, it bemoans the lack of debth in many individuals method of thinking.

Evolution do not negate design, as a matter of fact if God or a creator made humans or everything, it appeals to logic that these designs also goes through stages of development and modifications of existing designs.

Let anyone who wish to argue fully understand the position they wish to argue on, matters of such magnitude have more debth than just left and right wing.

for the first time reading your topics here i agree with you...

vaxx:
for the first time reading your topics here i agree with you...

Good for you sir

johnydon22:


No.

Just highly advanced. For the fact there is room for his creations to modify and change, evolved and repair shows a lingering flaw in every evolving model.

Perfection has no room for modification as it is the precise concept.

So how do Christians who support evolution deal with this

urahara:


So how do Christians who support evolution deal with this

Such a person must come to terms that only design imperfections and flaws need upgrades and modification. You can only modify or upgrade when you realize that something can get better.

So such a person must do away with fantasy thoughts and attributes like "Omnipotence, Omnipresence, omniscient" for what ever he argues designed man.

Such characteristics are elusive and are subjects of fantasies. For evolution to be a tool of God's design has an implication that suggests God is learning and unlearning with experience just like every other designer.

Because an omnipotent, omniscient being who wants to create a perfect model, knows every possible way it can be done by virtue of omniscience and has the ability and capability to do this by virtue of omnipotent.

So such a being can create a perfect model one needing no upgrade or modification because none will be necessary.

perfection transcends modification

Johnydon22, well said.

Just like the case of Hijab for Muslim women, an all-knowing God created women body in feminine-figure and later decided it should be all covered because it's distracting men and adding to some men sexual aggressiveness.

A perfect God should have know this problem will turn out in the future if he design women in that shape but instead for the all-powerful God to do some juju power to change everything like he did in Noah story in the fairy book, he command women to cover all of thier body, something like women apologizing for being feminine!

johnydon22:


Such a person must come to terms that only design imperfections and flaws need upgrades and modification. You can only modify or upgrade when you realize that something can get better.

So such a person must do away with fantasy thoughts and attributes like "Omnipotence, Omnipresence, omniscient" for what ever he argues designed man.

Such characteristics are elusive and are subjects of fantasies. For evolution to be a tool of God's design has an implication that suggests God is learning and unlearning with experience just like every other designer.

Because an omnipotent, omniscient being who wants to create a perfect model, knows every possible way it can be done by virtue of omniscience and has the ability and capability to do this by virtue of omnipotent.

So such a being can create a perfect model one needing no upgrade or modification because none will be necessary.

perfection transcends modification

But alas they haven't come to terms with that.

urahara:



But alas they haven't come to terms with that.

Its a pity then

johnydon22:

Its a pity then

Loooool

johnydon22:

Its a pity then

Evolution kind of makes god look......... superfluous....

urahara:


Evolution kind of makes god look......... superfluous....

Not necessarily. Just not omnipotent or omniscient. Shows God also is evolving in intellect and skill

johnydon22:


Not necessarily. Just not omnipotent or omniscient. Shows God also is evolving in intellect and skill

Can such a being still be called a god

urahara:


Can such a being still be called a god

A God doesn't necessarily need to be all knowing and all powerful to be God.

johnydon22:


A God doesn't necessarily need to be all knowing and all powerful to be God.

That kinda God has limit.

I don't think any religious people will subscribe to that kind of God or call it a God except for deists.

tintingz:
That kinda God has limit.

I don't think any religious people will subscribe to that kind of God or call it a God except for deists.

In religious books every God is betrayed as imperfect....

johnydon22:


In religious books every God is betrayed as imperfect....

Either God is nothing to us or something but Impotent.

Double post.

tintingz:
Either God is nothing to us or something but Impotent.

Not necessarily... Humans are not omnipotent but we are still amazing designers..

HCpaul:


All

1. It's obvious that if there is a God then we all are abandoned creatures. God must have created the universe (particularly our solar system) in a haste and must have forgotten or so busy with a lot of stuff that he didn't perceive that intelligent being like humans happen to exist on planet earth.

2. The coming of Jesus Christ is a very good example. God realized a faulty human-like creature and decided to come visit earth in their form, in order to modify them and start with them afresh. The afterlife ish also prove this.

3.This is so obvious to everyone as our careless creator has abandon us with the woeful problems that life presented to us. We wake up everyday facing unending struggles and challenges. We gradually evolve both in our use of intellectual faculty, emotional Intelligence and in relationship with our immediate world and environment.

Many possibilities exist
1. It's either there is a God who happen to have abandoned us
2. A God who knew that we exist but doesn't care about us, deliberately or probably because he has too many planets to worry about.
3. A God who only consider earth and our solar system as an impractical model of what a real planet or solar system should look like
4. A God who lack all the characteristics of a father or doesn't meet the criteria
5. A partial God
6. A God that has now become an inferior version of what he created
7. A God that sees human as a competition
8. A God that can't do or live without human
9. A God that was only written about by our ancestors just to pass over time.
10. Our ancestors hyped imaginations

The tragedy here is that we all were told and indoctrinated with the same fables, but at a certain time, some start putting their brain to use.

I use this opportunity to say that in the year 2018 and beyond, we will experience the sudden death of religion in Nigeria, science will stand a chance to reign, more churches and mosques demolish, more industries taking place, companies littered everywhere, more firms on our street, adults using their brain, no more doom saying of going back to farming by our politicians and prophets, people going into IT, more automaths, more polymaths among us, more inventors, no more tithing, donations to IT firms, apprehension of pastopreneurs, constructions of our political system and most expecially the rise of Gods insignificance.

Happy new year.

I totally forgot about this. I will reply to this later