1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

Enigma:

@Joagbaje

First, I appreciate your partial magnanimity. However, your last post still saddens me in that it seems that unless you find evidence that Oyakhilome agrees with something, you will not accept what the Bible itself says on that point. I will deal with other points in that your post another day. For now I want you to look at some things in Psalm 51 as, while you didn't make a "special" on it directly, you dodged it hitherto. I will highlight a few parts and the task for you is consider their implications for

(a) whether David, a pre-NT person could receive forgiveness;
(b) whether he could receive remission of sin
(c) whether he had the Holy Spirit
(d) whether he was saved (for now I will not use "born again"

  [

Quote
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
Think carefully. Try this, and I implore you in good faith: Do NOT look at any CEC/Oyakhilome (even WoF) material (whether tape, RoR etc) when thinking carefully about this Psalm.

Many of the things David said here were not applicable to his generation, It was his prayer, But it was not answered because God couldnt  take that away.He said some things based on his own level of assumed understanding. But he also uttered prophetic words that are beyond his dispensation.
You raised this issue of David in and earlier post but ,i didnt have time  to respond to it then. But here is it :

2 Samuel 12:13
    And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

The matter didnt end Here.God forgave David but the sin was still before him.God had pronounced judgement. in verse 10 and 11.

2 Samuel 12:10-11
    Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. [11] Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

Even though he forgave David in verse 15, The judgement of verse 10 still came to pass. He only spared David life but his judgement remained, because the sin remained before God and it came to pass .

2 Samuel 16:20-23
    Then said Absalom to Ahithophel, Give counsel among you what we shall do. [21] And Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father: then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong. [22] So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and[b] Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel, [/b]

or what do you say about the sin of Moses,

Numbers 20:12
    And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Moses prayed and prayed, but did God forget the sin?

Deut. 3:25-26
    I pray thee, let me go over, and see the good land that is beyond Jordan, that goodly mountain, and Lebanon. [26] But the Lord was wroth with me for your sakes, and would not hear me: and the Lord said unto me, Let it suffice thee; speak no more unto me of this matter.

But for  us , It is a different ball game. He wipes off completely.

1 John 1:9
    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I will ask you this. If sin could be taken away by the blood of bulls., Then of what need is redemption . What need  was the blood of Christ.?

Enigma:

@Joagbaje

First, I appreciate your partial magnanimity. However, your last post still saddens me in that it seems that unless you find evidence that Oyakhilome agrees with something, you will not accept what the Bible itself says on that point. I will deal with other points in that your post another day. For now I want you to look at some things in Psalm 51 as, while you didn't make a "special" on it directly, you dodged it hitherto. I will highlight a few parts and the task for you is consider their implications for

(a) whether David, a pre-NT person could receive forgiveness;
(b) whether he could receive remission of sin
(c) whether he had the Holy Spirit
(d) whether he was saved (for now I will not use "born again"

Quote
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
Think carefully. Try this, and I implore you in good faith: Do NOT look at any CEC/Oyakhilome (even WoF) material (whether tape, RoR etc) when thinking carefully about this Psalm.

“i beseech you in the bowels of Christ think it possible you may be mistaken.”

Joagbaje:

I will ask you this. If sin could be taken away by the blood of bulls., Then of what need is redemption . What need was the blood of Christ.?

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

1 Pe 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

Heb 9:24-28 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gen 12:3, Gen 18:18

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Ogaga4Luv:

[size=13pt]^{My dear i do not understand the illustration on the photo. . .can you brief me please.}[/size]

^{oK Thanks. . . .i have clicked it. now, i can understand your given illustration with photo.}

aletheia:

Please see here

Joagbaje:

Many of the things David said here were not applicable to his generation, It was his prayer, But it was not answered because God couldnt  take that away.He said some things based on his own level of assumed understanding. But he also uttered prophetic words that are beyond his dispensation.
You raised this issue of David in and earlier post but ,i didnt have time  to respond to it then. But here is it :

2 Samuel 12:13
    And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

The matter didnt end Here.God forgave David but the sin was still before him.God had pronounced judgement. in verse 10 and 11.

2 Samuel 12:10-11
    Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. [11] Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

Even though he forgave David in verse 15, The judgement of verse 10 still came to pass. He only spared David life but his judgement remained, because the sin remained before God and it came to pass .

2 Samuel 16:20-23
    Then said Absalom to Ahithophel, Give counsel among you what we shall do. [21] And Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father: then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong. [22] So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and[b] Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel, [/b] . . .

I will ask you this. If sin could be taken away by the blood of bulls., Then of what need is redemption . What need  was the blood of Christ.?

1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

10[b]Create in me a clean heart[/b], O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

newmi:

" ENIGMA WAS RIGHT
I will like to state categorically that Enigma and Altheia were both right and correct on the issue of perfection for the OT folks. "

Above is a quote from Joagbaje, l think that its an honourable display of great humility as opposed to the claims of alleged "pride and arrogance" reported to have been portrayed in previous post on this forum upheld by many of antegonists most of whom are well aware of themselves.

so now who is PRIDE and who is HUMBLE?
Hi Guys say cheese !!!

Enigma:

You are in denial; you just do not want to accept that the Bible can so clearly contradict your Rhapsody of erRors and your WoF theology! I pray that some day you will be detoxed from the RoR poison.

See, your own post contradicts you. Nathan told David that the child would die and that he would suffer other consequences BUT that the Lord had put away David's sin ---- even you quoted that passage. Lawrence Agada of your church who stole millions for Oyakhilome your pastor is forgiven I'm sure you would say since he is "born again" but did he not suffer consequences of his theft e.g. losing his job?


This is sheer nonsense! You are the one arguing that "atonement" of OT saints was done through the blood of animals and that they were justified by works. Our explanation of Christian doctrine to you is that there is only ONE atonement for everyone, whether Old Testament or New Testament saint -- that atonement for everyone is the one wrought through the blood of Jesus Christ. That atonement is the remission of the sin of everyone whether Old Testament or New Testament saint. That atonement is the propitiation, the forgiveness and the salvation of everyone whether Old Testament or New Testament saint.

I see you dodged the questions I posed on Psalm 51

David was told that the Lord had put his sin away and following above did David receive remission or not. Think carefully because when you say that David did not receive forgiveness, then you are telling us that he has gone to eternal damnation!


Did David have the Holy Spirit or not?

Did David receive the restoration of the joy of salvation or not and was God no longer the God of his salvation. Again think carefully because you might just be condemning David to eternal damnation.

aletheia:

@Joagbaje:
Thank you for being humble enough to concede where you are wrong. And all the glory must be to the Lord. But have you considered that you might have been mistaken in other regards? Neither Enigma, nuclearboy or myself have asserted that the OT saints were saved by the blood of bulls. Everyone that has been saved has been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. It is by faith, looking on to Jesus. Which is why Jesus said this:The incident alluded to is described here:So in essence what Jesus is saying is this: Just as those dying in the wilderness looked to the bronze serpent and lived, even so those dying, looking to Jesus shall live.
This applies to all, both OT and NT. You have to understand that God's purpose preceded Adam.The Lamb of God needed to offer just one perfect sacrifice not several. And at just the right time in God's plan, it happened.Do you see that phrase: unto them that look for him? Do these not include the OT saints as well? Did Jesus himself not say this of Abraham?All the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, bear the testimony of Jesus:When Jesus said this, the NT hadn't been written. And again in this place:
The advent and saving work of Jesus is foreshadowed in the scriptures beginning from:To Abraham:^^^Other examples abound.

Now as to being born again. Let us look at the scriptures:
1. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
2. Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
3. How did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the prophets get into the kingdom of God?
Could it be that what you understand as born again is different from what it actually means, given that you say OT saints are not born again, yet Jesus says unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God and we see Abraham et al (not born again according to you), in the kingdom of God.

What we often lose sight of is that Jesus operated in a Jewish milieu and hence his expressions would have been particularly Jewish making use of parallelisms. And so in he repeats himself, saying essentially the same thing:

nuclearboy:

@Jesoul:

This your modesty na wah O - learning from me? (Aletheia I definitely understand sha). You stand out there ahead, Ma'am and I hope you're having a lovely day

JeSoul:

A lovely day it is, and I hope a lovelier day is yours thank you sir Nuclear. And yes oh, believe it. I think we will all be amazed at how much of an impact even the smallest of words or points we make, have on the silent audience - those who just read and never post. Please carry on!

Enigma:

A lovely day it was (and lovely days will always be with us); I wasn't able to join issues in the latest debates as I have my hands full with Enigmalet who arrived yesterday.

Enigma:

A lovely day it was (and lovely days will always be with us); I wasn't able to join issues in the latest debates as I have my hands full with Enigmalet who arrived yesterday. I will try and address some of the issues addressed to me at some point.

JeSoul:


Nuclearboy & Zikky, we are waiting for your own announcement soon.

nuclearboy:

Ma'am:

My announcements came before I ever heard of NairaLand.

thinking "hmmmmmm, well, there's space for more, isn't there? will do something about that"

And actually Jesoul, its you we should be expecting such news from. Yes! The book wey you read never reach you?  I'm sure there's someone muttering and stammering in anger whenever he looks at you that time is going and he's ready for the sowing

Enigma:

A lovely day it was (and lovely days will always be with us); I wasn't able to join issues in the latest debates as I have my hands full with Enigmalet who arrived yesterday. I will try and address some of the issues addressed to me at some point.

Biox:

back to my last post
@enigma

like i said if liad/HARGARD are born again and still admited they did all you said they did.it still doesnt mean that they have stoped beeing born again.

now dont get me wrong,when a christain does something wrong that doesnt make him a sinner,sin is a nature so is righteousness a nature.and this nature is in his spirit.when a man gets bornagain that act takes place in his sipirit.his body remains the same,the same with his thaughts,he is likely to still do somethings he was use to doing,but that still doesnt change the fact that he  has a new nature.all he needs at such level is mind renewal which i done throuh the word.

maybe laid?hargard did such wrong first we dont know what happened between them and GOD after then,if they are forgiven by God then who are we to jurge them.also if truly they are born again,and did what they like i said all they need is renewing of thier mind,but that act doesnt stop them from being born again.

Now are the OT folks learning from them?you ask.remebeer this OT folks are not going to practice what they see us do in heaven.

these OT folks did not have the life that we have now in the sense the life that came trou jesus.jesus brought a differnt life.

now whats happenin gis that they are learning from the kind of life that jesus brought that  they didnt have or expirience.right now as bornagain christain we have the ability to receive the holy spirit.we have the ability to speak in tongues,we have also i different relatioship with God,there so much they are learning an seeing that they didnt see in their time.

\also please dont  use the mistake of this folks to messure their spiritual life,
the says as new born babes desire the sincer milk of the word theat you may grow thereby.also it says that strong meet belong to them that are of full age.
at every level in life there is a place a man function in,but there is also always a better place for the same man.

Joagbaje:


Enigma,
must you fight dirty? leave joagbaje out, leave Oyaks ,   opaks, Wofer, Wafer an all name callings. deal with me as a person, deal with topic and not personalities. It is childish of you and unintellectual. Do you have other motives than the discussions?

Enigma:

Joagbaje

In all honesty, until recently I had thought that the reason you display the attitude you have constantly displayed here is attributable to your honest belief in your doctrine because you are thoroughly brainwashed. I still believe that you are brainwashed of course; however, I am beginning to take very seriously the viewpoint that part of why you defend false doctrine so vigorously is because, as a pasiitor, to whom lower mugs pay tithes and offerings etc you are benefiting enormously from false doctrine. Similarly, part of your reasons for defending Oyaks is because you are a beneficiary of his set up.