Mad_Max:

Your belief system teaches automatic earthly rebirths. I sort of took it as a given that it's what you must subscribe to. We meant different things by reincarnation. I knew what you meant. I was clarifying what I meant. There is discussion. There is no intent to convert or convince. It would be lovely to look through the evidence for automatic earthly rebirths though. 

obi1o1:

Nairaland   nawa.I was just thinking the Grail message adherents were piecing everything together(wanted to get there book),now Mad Max has spin everything Inside out & Upside down.I really appreciate how everybody has elaborated on this topic,you all made my day splendid.Everything is so complicated,still everybody bring plausible explanations(esp Mad Max).Now i know we will never know until we leave this earth,so am sticking to my bible.[/b]All the miracles,blessings & personal relationship with Christ is enough.[b]Just wanted to know more but i guess nobody knows,& i ain't failing or repeating no class either.

Mad_Max:

I don't get personal religious beliefs from books. ALL religious books are written by people and lack of proof.

Mad_Max:

But when the spirit departs the physial body, it is no longer bound by the physical laws here. It can hang in the air, soar to the skies, fly across vast distances, walk through walls; nothing here bounds it, because it is not a physical thing. Hard as it is to imagine a place where time isn't a factor, that is eternity, that's the realm of the spirit. There is no time, because time is a 'physical' substance, a measure of the physical universe. There are other things in eternity to which the spirit takes to, being its natural environment, and there are quite possibly, laws there as well. But time as we know it doesn't exist there. It's a realm different from all that we know in our dual nature. This universe is a construct, and time is just an ingredient used in its manufacture.

nuclearboy:

You didn't answer me - where does your information come from?

MyJoe:

Excellent. I was making the same point when I talked earlier about Odysseus and what we will achieve if we travel at light speed and bend time as we know it.

MyJoe:


Mohandas “Mahatma” Gandhi at about the same time and even long after could not rise above these wretched sentiments he was born with, a matter I have had cause to elaborate on in another thread in this section not too long ago, yet the world worships the sound of his name as though he were some blend of Jesus and Vishnu.

In September 1932, while in jail, Gandhi undertook a "fast unto death" to improve the status of the Hindu Untouchables. The British, by permitting the Untouchables to be considered as a separate part of the Indian electorate, were, according to Gandhi, countenancing an injustice. Although he was himself a member of an upper caste, Gandhi was the great leader of the movement in India dedicated to eradicating the unjust social and economic aspects of the caste system.

The advancement of equality in the caste system is largely due to Gandhi. Gandhi was a member of the merchant caste. He was later called Mahatma, meaning "great soul". He went beyond the divisions of castes and took an untouchable child into his own home, breaking all requirements of tradition. The child was called the untouchables harijan (children of God). Gandhi persuaded the Indian National Congress to adopt a resolution in support of harijan uplift (Lamb 145), and published a magazine called Harijan, which was devoted to the welfare of the untouchables.

His requirement on his farms in South Africa that everyone share in such tasks comes up in an early scene in the movie Gandhi. Since Gandhi equated suffering with holiness, he saw the Untouchables as hallowed by their miserable treatment and so called them "Harijans" (Hari=Vis.n.u). Later Gandhi went on fasts in the hope of improving the condition of the Untouchables, or at least to avoid their being politically classified as non-Hindus.

MyJoe:

Have you considered that she is some holy prophetess disguising here?

Mad_Max:
Which modern religion endorses the caste system and racial superiority? We're having a discussion here, you and I. There are no 'people' to offend. If you don't say a thing, you'd still think it. There really isn't a difference. Please say your mind freely.Your thread is a haven of free speech; it's why I prefer it.

The Duke of Zhou (Chinese: 周公旦; pinyin: Zhōu Gōngdàn; Wade-Giles: Chou Kungdan) played a major role in consolidating the newly-founded Zhou Dynasty. He was the brother of King Wu of Zhou, the first king of the ancient Chinese Zhou Dynasty. Because his fiefdom was based around the Zhou capital of Chengzhou (later Luoyang), the Duke of Zhou was also known as Zhou Gong (周公), Zhou Gong Dan (周公旦), Shu Dan (叔旦) or Zhou Dan (周旦).


The Duke of Zhou is also credited with writing many of the poems collected in the Shi Jing, or Book of Songs, the earliest surviving collection of Chinese poems. These poems were collected by Confucius, whose thought was influenced by the Duke of Zhou's conception of the ideal ruler.[4]
According to Chinese legend, he annotated the 64 hexagrams and completed the classic of I Ching, established the Rites of Zhou, and created the Yayue of Chinese classical music.

Τα Πάντα ῥεῖ (ta panta rhei) "everything flows" either was not spoken by Heraclitus or did not survive as a quotation of his. This famous aphorism used to characterize Heraclitus' thought comes from Simplicius.[29] The word rhei, adopted by rhe-o-logy, is simply the Greek word for "to stream."[30]


The philosophy of Heraclitus is summed up in his cryptic utterance:[31]
ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμϐαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ.
Potamoisi toisin autoisin embainousin, hetera kai hetera hudata epirrei
"Ever-newer waters flow on those who step into the same rivers ."
The quote from Heraclitus is interpreted by Plato as:[32]
πάντα χωρεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει
Panta chōrei kai ouden menei
"Everything changes and nothing remains still"
Instead of "flow" Plato uses chōrei, to change chōros.
The assertions of flow are coupled in many fragments with the enigmatic river File:[33]
"Ποταμοῖς τοῖς αὐτοῖς ἐμβαίνομέν τε καὶ οὐκ ἐμβαίνομεν, εἶμέν τε καὶ οὐκ εἶμεν."
"We both step and do not step in the same rivers. We are and are not."

In Heraclitus a perceived object is a harmony between two fundamental units of change, a waxing and a waning. He typically uses the ordinary word "to become" (gignesthai or ginesthai, root sense of being born), which led to his being characterized as the philosopher of becoming rather than of being. He recognizes the changing of objects with the flow of time.
Plato argues against Heraclitus as follows:[54]
How can that be a real thing which is never in the same state? , for at the moment that the observer approaches, then they become other , so that you cannot get any further in knowing their nature or state , but if that which knows and that which is known exist ever , then I do not think they can resemble a process or flux ,

[b]1) True, without falsehood, certain, most certain.
2) What is above is like what is below, and what is below is like that which is above. To make the miracle of the one thing.
3) And as all things were made from contemplation of one, so all things were born from one adaptation.
4) Its father is the Sun, its mother is the Moon.
5) The wind carried it in its womb, the earth breast fed it.
6) It is the father of all ‘works of wonder' (Telesmi) in the world.
6a) Its power is complete (integra).
7) If cast to (turned towards- versa fuerit) earth,
7a) it will separate earth from fire, the subtile from the gross.
With great capacity it ascends from earth to heaven. Again it descends to earth, and takes back the power of the above and the below.
9) Thus you will receive the glory of the distinctiveness of the world. All obscurity will flee from you.
10) This is the whole most strong strength of all strength, for it overcomes all subtle things, and penetrates all solid things.
11a) Thus was the world created.
12) From this comes marvelous adaptions of which this is the proceedure.
13) Therefore I am called Hermes, because I have three parts of the wisdom of the whole world.
14) And complete is what I had to say about the work of the Sun[/b]

Mad_Max:


Still, we make no effort to export our religions. I wonder how many people from how many corners of the world would be practicing African religions now, if we had bothered to put it in an accessible medium. We don't do enough. My biological son is half-European, still very little, just beginning to talk, and I scream blue murder if I hear only English from his mouth. I don't talk to him in English. What for? Took a while to forgive my husband for being European sef. You were going to spend your life with an African and you couldn't take the trouble to be born African, abi? Though peple who think all Africans must practice African religions are silly and irritate me no end, we don't export our religion. I keep wondering why that is.

5.         IGBO TRADITIONAL RELIGION AND CHRISTIANITY

Chinua Achebe (1958:123-125) gave us the first Igbo description of the impact of that encounter between Igbo traditional religion and christianity when Obierika said:


H[i]ow do you think we can fight when our own brothers have turned against us. White man is very clever. He came quietly and peacefully with his religion. We were amused at his foolishness and allowed him to stay. Now he has won our brothers and our clan can no longer act like one. He has put a knife on the things that held us together and we have fallen apart.[/i]


The above words articulate the sentiments expressed by an Igbo elder after realizing how the new religion (Christianity) had gone in terms of winning converts and dividing the members of the clan. And it is true that henceforth things were never the same for the Igbo.


The question that comes to mind is whether the Igbo did misunderstand him? If the missionary had not posed as quiet and peaceable, could the Igbo have been less tolerant with him? How exactly did the missionary manage to win some Igbo over into christianity? In Achebe's Things Fall Apart, Nneka wasted no time in joining the Christian when she became pregnant because she has been losing her children through ogbanje. The outcasts in Mbanta flocked the church. Christianity offered freedom from evil spirits and oppression. There was the case of Nwoye who was shocked because twins were thrown away into the forest to die and about Ikemefuna who was killed for sacrifice by his father Okonkwo. We remember how Ndi Igbo gave out the shrines of their various gods to Christian missionaries who cleared those sites, erected churches and nothing happened to them contrary to the expectations from the people, their gods and shrines. The Igbo are not sufficiently silly to hang on to those failed shrines and gods, even if they had not completely imbibed christianity. The gods were dead and the people became convinced that the white man's God was very powerful. There were those who failed at this time to become part of this dynamic process and they lost out. The priestess of Agbala in Umuofia spitefully called the christians the excrement of the clan and the 'new faith' was a mad dog that had come eat it up (Achebe, 1958:101). Thus when the colonials and missionaries wanted the chiefs and the chief priests to surrender their children for education, these principal Igbo chiefs who were custodians of true Igbo history refused for fear of being treacherously enslaved. Rather less privileged people like the 'osu' caste, outcasts and personal servants regarded as 'worthless and empty' men as described by Achebe were given to the Europeans for education. When this class of people became educated they had no enthusiasm to engage in the collation and preservation of Igbo history in view of their past shameful family background. This negative motivation or social resentment even led many of these educated elites to join in the colonialist propaganda that the Igbo had no common history (Nwosu; 1983:6). Thus christianity and Igbo are weighted for what they are worth and a choice is made accordingly.


Therefore the advent of christianity in Igbo land had meant the introduction of a christian world view. Admittedly, christianity made tremendous achievements. They abolished slave trade and slavery, human sacrifices and twin killing, introduced education, built hospitals and charity homes. They destroyed some level of superstition, increased human knowledge that brought about improved human welfare. Igbo traditional religion was incapable of achieving this because it was static as well as looking downwards. Through education and christian religion it was possible for the Igbo to re-shape their faith and world view. Nevertheless syncretistic practices among many Igbo christian show that Igbo traditional religion is still alive. But this encounter with christianity means it will ever be the same again.


The early missionaries saw themselves as social and religious reformers. However, while they tried in their own way to achieve their mission goal, which was the conversion of Africans into christianity, their approach and attitude did not produce a wholesome result. They thought by condemning African religious beliefs and practices, social and political means of control. That they would produce 'a new man' born in a new faith; but this 'newman' produced became a split personality - who could neither totally return to the old nor firmly be rooted in the new. This was made worse by the fact that most of the missionaries were not only ignorant of the Igbo people but also lacked adequate knowledge of the content of the christian message. For instance, one of the listeners in Achebe's This Fall Apart asked the missionary thus:


If we leave our gods and follow your god, who will protect us from the anger of our neglected gods and ancestors? In response, the missionary nastily said angrily: Your gods are not alive and cannot do you any harm. They are pieces of wood and stone.


The impatience and unwillingness of the white missionary to educate the traditional Igbo on WHO JESUS IS and WHAT HE CAN DO for them in relation to their gods marked the beginning of a false start in communicating the christian message to the Igbo. It was a brand of christianity, which did not affect all facets of Igbo life. It was that failure which gave rise to ambivalent christianity in Igboland whereby most Igbo christians resort to their local deities, ancestors, medicine men, divination, sacrifices and use of charms or amulets to seek for solution and protection in their crises moments. Nevertheless the Christian message has continued to challenge Igbo man and his environment.


It is important that we be reminded that the various ethnic groups in the world have their traditional religions as an answer to the reality of their existence. The Philistines, the Babylonians, the Greeks and the Romans, all indulged in idolatrous worship. The Arabs used to worship many spirits (Jinns). Stonehenge in southern England is a living evidence of Druidism, which was the heathen worship of the early inhabitants of the United Kingdom. Human sacrifice was a part of Druid worship and was only abolished in the Roman period, (Kato, 1985:33).


Whatever rationalization we may try to make, the worship of God in traditional Africa and the primitive nations of the world is idolatrous. Idolatry is worshipping God in pictures, and this was thought to be normal, not sin, since in their view, God is always represented in visual symbols, and so there must always be pictures, idols and statues in their shrines or places of worship. True worship must be spiritual, not material and idolatrous. Pictures designed to encapsulate divinity necessarily diminish God's honour, and transcendence and sovereignty. It is impossible to capture God's power and majesty in a visual image and all attempts to do so deteriorate into magic, superstition and idolatry. Images in worship destroy the human spirits; distort God's spiritual identity and they promote the lie of idolatry. The depravity evident in African traditional religion is evident among all peoples of the earth (Psalm 14:2-3). Traditional Igbo ancestor turned away from 'Chukwu' and set up his gods, with Ala as the arch-divinity. The Igbo myth of origin as shown by Nri myth reveals how Nri sacrificed his first son and first daughter. We don't know why Nri could not be patient to be fed by 'Chukwu' as he fed his father Eri and his people. As with Adam the Igbo man's ancestry to search for answers (about his welfare) away from God broke the link between him and 'Chukwu.'


It is important to observe that while pagan worship was a part of the religion of the peoples of the world, they could still change to other religions of their choice. Most Arabs accepted Islam and became Muslims. The British no longer claimed Druidism as their religion, but Christianity. It was the white missionaries who brought the church to Igbo land. Why should this not be the case in Igbo land?


5.1.      RESTORING THE BROKEN-LINK

The question that is being asked today is that of Igbo traditional religion in relation to Christianity. The question has become more urgent today following the explosion of christianity in Africa where the population is more than 300 million people.

The great Apostle Paul categorically points to the fact that the worship of the pagan gods is a distortion of God's revelation in nature (Rom. 1:18-23). In Acts 17:16-34 he told the people of Athens that the 'Unknown God' they worship is Jesus Christ. In the book of Hebrews 1:1, Paul disclosed that the God who spoke to our forefathers in various ways had now spoken in the last days by his son Jesus Christ. The incarnation has made all people savable.


The Igbo people are1ucky people. Our great grand ancestor 'Eri' in Nri myth knew God - "Chukwu". 'Chukwu' has offered the last and final revelation in Jesus Christ, and he is the only foundation for humanity, there is no other. (1 Corth 3: 11), and every veil which had hitherto covered people is destroyed and taken away by him for us to have freedom (2 Cor3:16-18). We are told in the book of Proverbs 16:25 that:


There is a way that seems right to a man but in the end it leads to death.


In acts 14:8-18 Paul made it clear to the people of Lystra that God had never left himself without a witness and had also in time past let all nations go their own way and then wed them in the words of Samuel the prophet (1 Samuel 12:21) to turn from their useless idols that can do them neither good nor rescue them but to turn to the living God who made heaven, and earth and sea and everything in them. It is Jehovah who alone is both God and Saviour (Isaiah 43:11-13).


The Bible makes it abundantly clear that God himself does not give his glory to another or his praise to idols (Isaiah 42: Isaiah 42:17. And whenever people pour libation to other gods, Jehovah's anger is always provoked (Jeremiah7:19-19). Thus in Exodus 20:3-5, God commanded:


You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven, above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them ---


Nri thought he was right in his worship of the Earth goddess and his sacrifices. He saw the created beings as intermediaries. He became a captive of Satan and lost his freedom. In Igbo traditional religion, the concept of Deus Otiosus is explained by appeal to the lesser gods and the ancestors as intermediaries (middlemen). On this the Bible declared in John 14:6: Jesus answered I am the way, the truth and the life.


No one comes to the father except through me.


Similarly in reacting to the great tendency of elaborate sacrifices in Igbo traditional life, Christ offered
himself as sacrifice once for all (Heb. 10:10, 14). Salvation is found only in Jesus (Acts 4:12, John 3:16). Jesus is the only foundation for humanity. The foundation laid by Igbo ancestry in their purest contact with 'Chukwu' has yielded fruit right from the time the first missionary set foot on Igbo soil. Christianity is not a white man's religion. It is the religion of those who have accepted faith in God through Jesus Christ. The Igbo christians have joined the list of noble African church leaders like Origen, Athanacius, Tertullian and Augustine. Recently Reverend Father Tansi is canonized as Saint in the Roman Catholic Church and again Cardinal Arinze is the first black to be elevated to the 4th powerful position in the Roman Catholic hierarchy and by this he can even become a Pope. Great developments can come to Igbo land andNigeria, if we commit ourselves to Jesus Christ as Lord. Jesus Christ alone is the answer to Igbo spiritual and material needs. According to Acts 17:28, we hear:


For in him we live and Move and have our being.


In him alone we find satisfaction and meaning for our life in this world and hereafter. This kind of choice, faith commitment has tremendous developmental implication for us as a people and as a nation. No one can deny that looking upwards to Chukwu has been more beneficial than looking downwards to our ancestors. They were men who lived and died in their time. Where we are today has been the fruit of Christianity and western education.


The 21st century challenges the Igbo to take a leap of faith and be properly restored in our relationship with God first entered into by Igbo earliest ancestor, A.O. Anya {2002) recently has rightly drawn attention to the demand of the 21st century marked by a transition from a resource-driven economy, society and culture to the new and emerging economy and culture which is knowledge-based, technology driven and responsive to environmental concerns. Igbo Christianity and spirituality must respond to this new demand. Because we must not allow our culture to retard our development as a people, we must let our culture be judged and transformed by the word of God as contained in the Bible. The Bible makes it clear that people perish for lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6) this we can avoid by engaging in aggressive education of ourselves and our people. Igbo religion can accelerate economic development of the Igbo nation, and the nation at large. This education can emphasize knowledge and character formation that comes through changing our general orientation in terms of values and attitudes, knowledge that would include acquiring skills and idea that can change the mind.  You change man and his environment when you succeed in the mind. Ignorance is one of our destructive hindering forces in our society. With sound knowledge of God, man and society, we will appreciate the danger of superstition, idolatry, caste system and sacrifices to their idols and with good character formation whereby we imbibe christian values, we become major resource for economic and spiritual growth which will minimize corruption, improve human relations and increase our productive capacity for personal growth and social development. This religious demand of the 21st century demands risk, choice and commitment. Risk because once you put your hand on the plough there is no more looking backwards. Choice because it is a matter of life or death. Commitment because it involves vision and mission. The dominant Igbo religious and philosophical ideas require those three dimensions, which constitute Igbo man's identity, vision and mission rooted in our faith in Chukwu who not only creates but sustains and protects. Christianity and education which act as source of empowerment will equip us with character and knowledge that- can transform us into agents of change in our time.

MyJoe:

The enduring legacy of the Hebrew Bible was sealed when Jesus and his apostles quoted from it. That, plus the fact it dovetails into the Gospels, brought it into Christianity.

Mad_Max:


I wasn't bewailing other religions coming here.

Mad_Max:

You were going to spend your life with an African and you couldn't take the trouble to be born African, abi?

MyJoe:

I agree people ought to bear in mind that Jesus and the apostles were quoting the OT within a Jewish context. But the disciples also used it in their ministrations to the Gentiles. In doing that they were following Jesus’ example, even though Jesus only did so concerning Jews. But then Jesus only preached to Jews. So when Paul wrote concerning the Hebrew Bible in 2 Tim 3:16 that the scripture in its entirety is of God, it is to be expected that Christians will take him seriously. It is these factors that join the OT and the NT at the hips. I think making distinctions in the application of the OT - just as they should with the New Testament – is reasonable. Acts 15 is clear on that matter. Christians do make these distinctions – nobody goes around killing goats today – but only, it appears, where it suits them. And so tithe, which was clearly intended to care for those of little means, has been hijacked by church leadership for personal enrichment.

It is the teaching of Jesus that is broadly accepted as Christianity.

Mad_Max:

True.
Christianity claims it's the way of salvation. But it's a man-made religion like every other. Every religion makes that claim. Every sect makes that claim, its adherents convinced they alone have found the answer and all other religions toil in vain. All religions, being human constructs to understand the Divine, are full of our human conceits.Christianity is not the way of salvation. Christ is. Christ is one thing, Christianity as we know it is another. That they're two different things is evidenced by the fact that you can have one without having the other. If a particular religion is the way, why didn't Jesus tell the Jews or his disciples to abandon Judaism, since it's not the 'correct' religion? But Jesus told them no such thing.

Mad_Max:

Buddhism, especially the Tibetan Lamaist version, has very interesting philosphical doctrines and theories about Jesus.

Mad_Max:

[color=#990000]It's effective only because many Christians live in unquestioning obedience, like trained animals, not to God, but to other men. Most of us have been brainwashed and deeply conditioned to believe and obey whatever the 'man of God' says.
Christianity claims it's the way of salvation.

Ladyrsky46:

Which is a real shame. I believe each Christian should be able to read the Bible for themselves and their leaders should be there to help them

Ladyrsky46:

Which is a real shame. I believe each Christian should be able to read the Bible for themselves and their leaders should be there to help them
Then again, I wonder what Jeremiah 3:15 means in relation to Pastors and what they're there for,
"And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding."
Christianity is NOT the way of salvation. Jesus Christ is. No one should ever get that twisted.

MyJoe:

A Fulani Creation Story

At the beginning there was a huge drop of milk
Then Doondari came and he created the stone.
Then the stone created iron;
And iron created fire;
And fire created water;
And water created air.
Then Doondari descended a second time. And he took the five elements
And he shaped them into man.
But man was proud.
Then Doondari created blindness and blindness defeated man.
But when blindness became too proud,
Doondari created sleep, and sleep defeated blindness;
But when sleep became too proud,
Doondari created worry, and worry defeated sleep;
But when worry became too proud,
Doondari created death, and death defeated worry.
But when death became too proud,
Doondari descended for the third time,
And he came as Gueno, the eternal one
And Gueno defeated death.


This one is the creation story of the Efe, a forest pygmy people of the DR Congo

The Forbidden Fruit

God created the first human being with the help of the moon. God kneaded the body out of clay. Then God covered it with skin and the end God poured blood into it. God called the first human Baatsi.

Then God whispered into his ear telling him to beget many children, but to impress upon the children the following rule: from all trees you may eat, but not from the Tahu tree.

Baatsi had many children and he made them obey the rule. When he became old he retired to heaven. His children obeyed the rule and when they grew old they too retired to heaven.

But one day a pregnant woman was seized with an irresistible desire to eat the fruit of the Tahu tree. She asked her husband to break some for her, but he refused. But when she persisted, the husband gave in. He crept into the forest at night, picked the Tahu fruit, peeled it, and hid the peel in the bush. But moon had seen him, and she told God what she had seen.

God was so angry with humans that he sent death as a punishment to men.