I don’t think fraternities are good groups for one to be a member of. If one think of anything ass such that teaches about God, then let him/her join a living church not a fraternity.

The bible did not encourage us to join fraternities but not forsake the gathering of the saint.  (Heb. 10:25 GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
We should not stop gathering together with other believers, as some of you are doing. Instead, we must continue to encourage each other even more as we see the day of the Lord coming.)

@. Godson2009, Tudor has said it all. PLease go and do your research and kindly stop deifying foreign religions.

IDINRETE:

@Tudor
O yee troubler of nairaland your are back, just read your saga, get well soon,  the forum has been so boring in your absence

Thanks a lot my man. I intend to be better soon. Hope you are good.

@Michelin, how are you doing welcome back, hope business is cool, I was like wondering why you posted a topic and never contributed, but all the same sha, check out my email @ the topic (Any occultist in the house?) you posted and would be happy to relating with you.

@Tudor welcome,though I am fresh on this forum I've really enjoyed your postings, guys like you just don't die it will take more than even a bomb to kill you, wishing you the best.
Even though one of these days we'll have cause to argue on certain issues but I know that it would be worth it. CHEERS

@Tudor, and Deep sight, you have actually said enough to make these people reason certain things but they just won't understand, they have not really even understood,practice and seen any other religion save Christianity, what you don't know how can you discuss it.

Both of you can quote from the scripture, meaning at least you know a bit of it(They will say that Satan knows the scripture), let them also try to read and understand other religions, frats, and beliefs, then they can argue base on what they know and not what they are told or made to believe.

Why quoting the old testament, after the death of Christ, when Christianity actually Started, the Christians have people that they call the Crusaders and Knight of Templar, These people go from house to house, city to city, killing people all in the name of Christianity, burning an entire family alive (They call it at the stalk) that they are witches.

Please my people I am a practicing Christian (Trying to be like Christ) but that those not mean that I should protect and hide certain wrongs that has been going wrong @ the Christian fold, it amounts to not saying the truth, "and the truth shall set you free".

Even in Churches of these day, in your Churches, you practice occultism and you know not, you symbolize things, in you dreams,when you dream you read meanings to it base on the events and symbols you see in these dreams what do you call that, some churches consecrates water, handkerchiefs, oils, crucifix, etc. what do you call these.

Lets not talk of the hiding things done in majority of the Churches just to gain spiritual powers, and pull crowd to their Churches, tell you what, every person that worships in that Church knowingly and unknowingly, is also a part of the pact that the pastors or general overseers have with what ever means of getting those powers, because you are all benefiting from such a Church.

What you should actually be worried about as a christian is let the GOD that you serve open your mind and grant you insight to chose a good Church that can save your ass.  

Like I wrote in one of my post in a particular topic, when the white man came into our land, they forced us into slavery, then the missionary came, and he instead of telling his brothers to stop the slave trade and fighting it out with him, he (Missionary) again forced his religion on us weak and powerless people.

If it were only Christianity do you think that the whole black race would be Christians, it was the technology of the white i.e. Ships, guns, canons, swords that they use in bringing Christianity to Africa, before the slave trade why didn't Christianity come to Africa.

Nuff said, please don't be over religious why kill yourselves before your time?. Welcome and accept alterations and transitions, be transformed and not confined in religion and you will know the truth.

Thanks everyone we learn everyday.

Tudór:

Again you keep denying the "deeds". Words eh. Blood was shed as " commanded", "prophesied" and "planned". 2000 years ago. As "payment" for Sins and for mercy. The DEED was done.

you r mixing up two totally different events leading to totally intent and purpose in the bible just to achieve your own desired conclusion doesnt work that way.
the old testament examples you gave and the new testament,jesus christ and 2000 years is like comparing boli(roasted plantain)and roasted corn.the fact that they book appear to look alike doesnt make them the same

Tudór:

We are talking about principle here. If your God is allowed to accept Human blood (as was shed on calvary) as atonement for "sins" why the hell shouldn't the next God on mount Olympus do the same?

the difference is that my own GOD is accepting only the blood of his son,not your son ormy daughter or anyone else's innocent family member.ersthwhile in the old testament the only blood he accepted in sacrifice was the blood of bulls and bullocks,birds and suchlike your own god accepts the blood of humans routinely,the blood of new born babies,pregnant women,hunch back,albinos  see the difference?

Tudór:

What is this? What does it matter if he was killed by aliens? Fact it is claimed his purpose here on earth was to DIE for YOU aka INCLUDING CHRISTIANS, it isn't supposed to matter who pulled the trigger him , according to your teachings YOU did. With your SINS.

for the purpose of this thread even if i were to accept that still doesnt change the fact that my GOD accepts only animal sacrifice,and the onl person that was killed was his own son who actually rose again and was transfigured and went back to his daddy.i dont see the murdered victims of your gods rising up or them willingly dieing for the gods in almost all cases they are forced

Tudór:

The important fact here is Human blood was shed for your sins. So it was planned by your God from the beginning.

one question,does this justify the millions of inocent victims which includes the afore mentioned who have been murdered in cold blood??

Tudór:

He does not require blood sacrifice yet he orchestrates the coming and killing of a human as atonement for sins. If he does not require it, why accept it in the first place? Why send the son to earth? Why not send his only begotten goat, cow or donkey?

maybe because the power to give life to the begotten son,goat or cow is reposed with him so buttom line whoever he sends would have risen up anyway,besides the remission of sin wold not have carried the same weight or gravity if he hd sent a goat,cow or donkey cause im sure ppl like you would have asked why he didnt send his only son if he loved us that much

Tudór:

Fact; YOUR GOD accepted Human sacrifice for atonement of Sins. That is the principle we are working with here.

he accepted the sacrifice OF HIS SON FINITO!the son who rose again after the 3rd day and went back to his daddy

Tudór:

This is ridiculous. Firstly how was Jesus a victim? Why did he come to earth? Severally when he alluded to a purpose what was it, to come and turn water into wine? In your fit to wring yourself out of your contradictions you are just making terrible Blunders, Did the Jews really have a choice? Something which had been prophesied and designed by God and yet jesus is the victim here?

jesus christ was a victim when you look at the circumstances of his death i.e via the jews.an innocent man unfairly judged and killed by jews,pharisees etc because they believed he was making wrong assertions so where is your blunder or contradiction?
besides as i have said severally,it was a one off compared to the ritual killing to your gods still goingon today
he willingly without any cohersion gave himself can you say the same for the woman whose breasts,private part and head were cut off and left under a bridge in lagos?
can you say the same fr the hunchback killed and his hunch back cut off and left in an uncompleted building or the albino killed and skinned to be used for a cream to be aplied by politicians to win votes?
all mementoes of your gods

Tudór:

A family that orchestrates the murder of a son to atone for debt owed to them by others is a psychopathic family and should all be in jail.

no,an error on your part,a father who sent his son to die for the sins of billions of his other children and then gave the son back his life and called him back home the day your gods start to give back life to the millions of inncent victim you have my vote i will be a faithful devotee for life in fact i might even register for a crach course in babalawo or sango priest training

Tudór:

No. I'm not rationalising anything. I am just telling you to get off your high-horse and stop raising up your own faith like its any cleaner or christianity is any better when your foundations are as rotten. Your hands are dirty too. Don't be a self-contradicting Hypocrite.

you still are yet to show me where christianity has advocated for the killing of innocent people or human sacrifice you keep on harping on jesus christ dieing as a sacrifice and using this as a reason to justify millions of barbaric and mind boggling blodsheds by ignorant and sadistic illiterates in the name of worshipping or appeasing gods.
there is a reason why every government in the world will allow churches and mosques to practise unmolested but not your neighbourhood babalawo or priest to continue human sacrifice openly,

Tudór:

Sorry, I have rearranged them. My hands weren't steady when I was typing then. No go back and read it.

Rubbish. Were innocent babies not exterminated in that verse or Not? Why are you complaining? Please tell me What Crime those children we're guilty of.

again is this a justification or a get out of jail free card for human sacrifice which has gone on through the ages?
like i said in my previous comments,i cannot second guess GOD in his infinite wisdom for taking certain actions,but all i know is that those actions at the end of the day always has intents and purposes.
*read my comments where i offered an explanation vis avis the census that david unwisely embarked upon even after being expressely forbiden to
*the massive difference was that this wasnt a sacrifice,it was a punishment and if you read onyou ill realise the people accepted itand asked for forgiveness.

Tudór:

"Secondly" quoting history to back up your assertions about african traditional religions means you have to believe not only the actions but the reason for those actions, How does this sound to you?

ok lets quickly rationalise it then,i have given you reasons why the incident came about in my previous comments including a short comment on it here now,lets try with your own
*gods that cant talk nor express themselves in any way shape or form are daily drenched in guman blood from head to toe as if that isnt enough they only ever ask for impossible demands like pregnant women,new born babies,albinos etc not only have they committed these acts in the past,they keep on doing so till the present and for the 70000 you have quoted there victims unwilling if i may add will have easily added up to times 1 million of the fig you quoted in the bible we could open a seperate thread if ou want us to look at the merits and demerits of both the bible and your gods incidents

Tudór:

What is this? Yayayayyayayayay, And the olden days of our fathers were synonymous with peace? And everything wasn't settled with the sword? Is that even an excuse?
You are just ridiculous. Started bringing up foolish excuses to justify killings.

even if warfare was equally justified in pre colonial times,even if slavery was also justified at least amongst warring villages and the victorious one took the other as their slaves was the wholesale slaughtering on human beings of different ages in honour of gods justified?if anyone is justifying wholesale human sacrifice look in the nearest mirror

Tudór:

Or you think the rituals and beliefs of our traditional religions just started one morning? They had reasons for killing twins or burying slaves too, and they are just as bogus as your own reasons for God killing 70,000 people because of Census.

if their rituals didnt just start off the cuff,you cant be debating in ignorance offer a sensible reason for their needless and pointless actions all you have been doing is nipping at my heels attacking the reasons i have adduced for the biblical accounts you cant continue attacking while not offering reasons to justify the actions of your gods

Tudór:

The amalakites were evil indeed. If you can summarily declare a group of people evil and wicked and exterminate them including babies, why can't other religions declare other people evil and kill them also?

summarily declaring them evil is lke judging by fiat,this wasnt the case they proved themselves evil by their continous actions which you can find in your bible.affairs were settled by the sword just like in the days of old before the white men came i have not problems with that as it was the way things were handled then,what i have a massive problem with which you have not bothered to offer any sensible or coherent explanation for is not only the "RITUAL MURDERS" in the past but its continuation even in mordern times.its very convenient for people like you to highlight negative stuffs i the bible but if you are asked if you believe the red sea really parted or GOD performed miracles you will be denying its posibility

Tudór:

The so-called Good people of the bible are equally as evil as d amalakites. They worship idols too, not so? And then kill children. Since when has idol worshipping being a justifiable reason for genocide? Were the innocent babies idol worshippers too?How someone thinks the best action to stop a tribe who kills its children is to come kill everybody in town and then help them finish off the children they haven't killed yet. That's very rich.
You seem to be making special rules for yourselves. Abeg, siddon one place.

what is the meaning of the term "good people of the bible"thisis where the problem lies you just cant gather several different tribes and religious persuations mentioned in the bible and put a single label on them its like ascribing the actions of the people of katsina,bauchi to the "good people of nigeria"without looking at the dynamics.
christians did not worship idols,they worship one GOD
christians did not kill children in acts of war david wiped out a group of people who were "synonimous"with evil and occltic practises.in this day and age he would have arrested and put them in jail like the government does evil and loco cults/groups but that was the way things were sorted then.

Tudór:

Wow. Who were the Jews worshipping? Not the same God? According to your story is not God = Jesus = same genocidal maniac? Since they were not christians why not discard the old testament? These we're supposed to be instructions from Your Jesus/God and men after God/Jesus' heart yet we see all this.

that is why i said you must look at the different dynamics.if that is your rationalisation then i guess i and the muslim share the same beliefs since we all worship GOD?
where did jesus come into this?
and yes as a pentecostal christian i dont subscribe to the old testament wholesale if you must know,what the bible tells me is that jesus christ came to "right the wrongs" of the old testament and even the beliefs i accept in the old testament is as a form of guidance it is the new testament i wholly subscribe to this is why i have issues with certain religious doctrines like tithes,youch not my annointed etc which is often quoted and regurgigated from the OT

Tudór:

If you worship Jesus you worship that same God. C'est fini

I SEE,SO IS SANGO AND hare krishna the same

Tudór:

This is like a Reformed Ogboni man denying the old barbaric acts of his progenitors and claim they were not ROF members till the reformation. You are just a joker

no this is like being sensible and not making whole sale ignorant sweeping statements,conjecture to buttress a defectively watery argument.im puzzled how the action of david settling scores the way it was settled in those days rightly or wrongly and the way africans too settled scores be adduced as a reasonable reason for completely barbaric,pointless and baffling human sacrifices.what is alarming is that you could argue that with a straight face

Tudór:

Its is a widely known fact slavery was CONDONED in the bible. Even "God" had guidelines on how slaves should be treated, captured, sold, inherited, how their childern can be owned like puppies etc like common property.

yes i totally agree with you,just like actsof warfare slavery was condoned in those days,even i will be honest enough to admit apostle paul in the new testament also made reference to slaves being obedient to their masters that is not the crux of this argument or have you lost track?

Tudór:

Slavery in its entirety is WRONG. When a human being is treated like a property its inhuman.

Fact; slavery was widely practiced even in the time of Jesus.

Fact; Nowhere did Jesus ever condemn it.

true,bit that was not what he came for,he had a specific purpose whichi could explain to you if you want but i have a feeling it ll be a suseless exercise anyway as you have your pre conceived notions so you see my dilema?if you want us to explore these areas of debate then a seperate thread will be an awesome idea.

Tudór:

Leviticus 25; 44 -46

The above is the word of YOUR Lord telling you to BUY foreign slaves (most of whom are prisoners of war sef or captured by raiders) and keep them as "possessions for PERMANENT heritance". Anyone who makes such declarations today will be arrested.

this is getting tiring,pls you are side stepping the main issues i have no time to keep on dancing round your side issues the main issue for me raising my shackles is a sensible explanation/rationalisation for needless and continuous bloodshed via sacrifice by your gods

Tudór:

Are you disputing the cannanites were systematically exterminated?

Deuteronomy 7 1-2

Talk about murderers. You go and Kill people including innocent babies their crime; because they inhabit an expanse of land which you covet.

in your haste to score a cheap point after going through google,i bet you did not bother to read the wholechapter,while i don not profess to be a pastor or a bible scholar english comprehension serving me right verse 4 of the same chapter gives the reasons for verses 1-2 clearly pls go back and read verse 4 and then continue reading what he also asks them to do by the way let me ask you a question
*how do doctors treat a tumor either malignant or whaever?then rationalise it with deut 7;1-2 make sure you read verses 4 downwards

Tudór:

So what? And the relevance of this is what? A human being is a human being be it your brother, sister or foreigner. The people of the bible maintained slaves. Thank Goodness you admitted its a terrible thing. Send that memo up to your God, he/she/it probably needs to know.

its quite juvenile trying to put words in my mouth abeg,this is an adult discussion where did i justify slavery??guess i should be asking you to fax your gods as to what they have been using the harvested breasts,human heads,new born babies cadavers,albinos ,hnch backs for?

Tudór:

Oooooh Right. The long and short of this is Your "God" in His infinite wisdom has the right to kill and murder anyone as he created us, right?

you are rambling now,cant make head nor tail of this

Tudór:

Well well, I got news for you. So does Allah, so does Zeus. The different Gods of African religions also in their Infinite wisdom Have the right to kill, punish and demand whatever sacrifice or payment.

here we go,at last we have your confirmed justification for the human sacrifice of new born babies,albinos,hunchbacks,pregnant women,men etc

Tudór:

If your God isn't a wicked entity, I don't see why they should be labelled wicked and pointless killings.

i have stated some of the points from my limited understanding severally i will humbly and reverently ask you to return the favour i.e sensible and rational explanation of human sacrifice, this should make interesting reading,pls dont just attack my own reasons which you have been doing in adittion in your replies pls your own reasons

Tudór:

Unless you can prove that right actually belongs to your yahweh and not others you are in effect blowing Hot air and Have NO right to criticise.

Why should we make an exception for you? The Gods in their infinite wisdom too requested people to be killed, Cry me a river.

is this what i suspect it is? a cowardly cop out ??i think not and i expect you will be rising up to the challenge above after all like your disciple deepsight has written you have proven beyond reasonable doubt lol

Tudór:

First thing, I have shown u instances where babies were murdered in cold blood in your same bible AS an Intruction from Your GOD. Whether you murdered a baby for sacrifice or as an instruction from your "lord" no one gives a mess, still the same thing.

first of all while being very very careful to say that violence and killings in whichever form isnt right,you should check the dictionary meaning of killing in cold blood, killings in a situation of active warfare including sadly the killing of babies is totally different from an innocent set of twins in peacetime without any external pressure being willingly taken to the evil forest and left there to die,i presume with the mother crying and wailing
*an innocent man who has commited no crime,who has done nothing wrong minding his business is kidnapped and killed his skin and head removed for ritual purposes and hs only crime/being an albino that is cold blooded urder
*a pregnant woman in a peaceful village/hamlet no wahala with any other tribe innocently going to the next village market,is kidnapped and used as sacrifice her crime?being oregnant at the wrong time that is cold blooded murder.
*a 12 yrs old girl coming back from school is waylaid and used for sacrifice,why cause she is a virgin that is cold blooded murder?
soplease dont you dare tell me its the same thing,its not

Tudór:

Make slaves of themselves? This dude thinks its only afriqicans that enslaved one another. Go read up.

simple question dont prevaricate,which is worse a stranger doing you a bad turn or your closes family doing you a bad turn answer

Tudór:

Women treated worse than slaves? Erm, what was the punishment for witches and wizards in your bible, pray tell me? Where women treated any better in the bible?

yes they killed withches and wizards and if you have done your research well,witches and wizards e.g jezebel not only physically murdered people they offered their own first born to the god of fire,to baal ashteroth and other gods

Tudór:

You think like a child, no offence. You think the atrocities mentioned in that book called the bible is all that there is to it? According to your warped logic the only people killed in the bible are the ones recorded.

of coure not but how does that explain the reasons you have continually failed to adduce which has been continually asked and you keep stylishly ignoring

Tudór:

And its also foolish to compare the imagine death toll caused by One tribe in the bible to the hundreds of thousands of different/diverse tribes in Africa. Do all african traditional religions practice the same thing? Where they all involved in human sacrifice? Did they all do baby sacrifices? Where they all burying slaves alive? Where they all Killing Twins? Did the sango worshipper kill twins? Did the mgwali worshipper in arua village bury slaves alive?

yes majority if not all of the african traditional worshippers in different ways all had gods who they had to offer human sacrifices to and even beyond the shores of africa to south america
the albino ritual sacrifice transends west africa to central africa
human rituals transends west africa to east and central africa all the way to egypt
in the pre colonial egypt there was a different god at the top of every street and i could certainly mention some egyptian gods who drank human blood regularly
so your point is moot im afraid

Tudór:

Talk about " rationalise the decimation ignorance bloodshed slavery they broughtand perpetuated", Fact is, Your God brought same in the OT, Your weak attempts to justify them nonetheless.

i ll ask fot the umpeenth time,is the acts in the 1st chronicles a fair justification for the above mentioned heinous acts by your god?never mind the documented and well known and accepted facts that the old testament just like pre colonial africa thngs were settled amongst nations countries tribes villages differently to now

Tudór:

Your Religious History is very much as DIRTY as any african religion out there. I repeat, YOU HAVE NO MORAL GROUND to condemn.

all you have done is to google and pick of random and isolated handful of incidents which were justified amongst those people by reason of their beliefs and their willing acceptance of the punishment and asking for the forgiveness of their sins.
moreover the instances you have given WERE IN A STATE OF WARFARE it is totally different from COLD BLOODED MURDER

@trex deepsight
just like i have called your compatriot out on a number of issues i am asking you the same thing can you please justify the heinous and vile acts of blood shed and sacrifice committed in the name of your gods?
i am simply not interested in you gys dancing round issues or going off on tangents give me a straigh concise clear and rational answer to my questions which none of you have been unable to or too cowardly to do.
bearing in mind that this thread was created to justify and rationalise your gods and their membership club i.e confraternities

@godson2009. . . You appear to be someone is rational and cool headed in most issues EXCEPT religion. DEEP SIGHT, TUDOR and co have clearly pointed the hypocrisy in your arguments and you still remain adamant on the "supreme morality" of the biblical god. To you, it's permitted for your god's "children" to wipe out entire civilizations in their insatiable greed for land but when boko haram/al qeada strikes, you condemn their actions. Asking the opposing posters about their "gods" is tantamount to beating about the bush coz if you haven't noticed, there are loads of NON-RELIGIOUS people on here (including myself) so asking about their "gods" is preposterous and irrational.

harakiri:

@godson2009. . . You appear to be someone is rational and cool headed in most issues EXCEPT religion. DEEP SIGHT, TUDOR and co have clearly pointed the hypocrisy in your arguments and you still remain adamant on the "supreme morality" of the biblical god. To you, it's permitted for your god's "children" to wipe out entire civilizations in their insatiable greed for land but when boko haram/al qeada strikes, you condemn their actions. Asking the opposing posters about their "gods" is tantamount to beating about the bush coz if you haven't noticed, there are loads of NON-RELIGIOUS people on here (including myself) so asking about their "gods" is preposterous and irrational.

its either you have not read my comments in its entirety regarding this issue,or you have completely misunderstood them let me try and simplify/break it down.

1.on the side of the bible and old testament-everyone settled scores by war,fighting taking of slavery etc
on the side of our progenitors in pre colonial times they also settled scores this way

now on both these accounts i have absolutely no problems with it simply because i know for whatever reason that was the way scores were settled not just by these two but the whole world.
if you check my comments i further highlighted a point which would seem to be a disadvantage to me which tudor and deepsight didnt even know/nor mentioned once i.e that apostle paul in the new testament in some of his comments also condoned/tolerated slavery.

where my problems rise and the moral of my many comments and preamble is that
1.the old testament christians absolutely did not offer human sacrifices at all.they fought and killed in a state of warfare. for each ocassion where this happened there was a reason either you agree with it or not. dont just read 2/3 verses check the exegesis and the conclusion this is the way to get to the buttom of an issue not picking up a few points in the middle.this is not to say i am saying it is right.

2.now with the pre colonial progenitors,they did not only do the same thing like i have pointed out above but they sacrificed human beings for the sake of several gods.
they killed millions of people in cold blood this is my main issue,
for instance can you justify or rationalise abandoning new born babies in evil forest to be devoured by wild animals, bitten from their internal organs by soldier ants till they died a violent death not by strangers but people who lived in the same communities with them greeted them not strangers.

cn you rationalise or justify using a 12 yrs old girl for sacrifice because she a virgin?this is not by strangers but people in her community some who she called brother or uncle.

can you justify burying several life breathing human beings with a dead king so that they can go and serve him in the after life all under the guise of tradition?
please do two things for me
1.show me where all these happened in the bible
2.justify/rationalise this for me
and i will accept whatever you want

@godson2009. . . I have followed this thread from inception till now and read EVERY comment, so accusing me of not "understanding completely" is unwarranted. I'm also sorry to burst your bubble but is are instances in the bible where the biblical god accepted and even demanded human sacrifice. Let me remind you of two : First is ABRAHAM who went as far as preparing a sacrficial alter, tied his son and actually put a knife to his neck and would have beheaded the poor lad if the biblical god hadn't stopped him (whether he completed it or not doesn't matter. That was a classical case of attempted murder and the fact that the biblical god was pleased with Abraham's "faith" says a lot about the moral standards of this god). Second, is some guy (jehosapath or something) sacrificed his daughter (DINAH) to the biblical god after a victorious battle. So much for the questionable moral standards of this god. These examples would land people in jail with lengthy sentences in today's world.

You dey mind the dude? Just interested in going merry go round.

1. Fact; I have shown your God has no problems receiving the blood of a Human for sins. Be it his son, cousin, or Uncle's blood no one gives a hoot. Not all Gods can produce sons. Human blood is Human blood.

2. Fact; I have shown you where your God commanded the death/ MURDER of innocents including infants, babies, innocent children, pregnant women, virgins etc. Whether they were murdered as a Human sacrifice or not No one gives a hoot. Basic thing THEY Where KILLED on The INSTRUCTIOn OF YOUR GOD. Murder is murder.

4. Fact. Murder is Murder. Killing babies is Killing babies call it war, ritual or raids. No one gives a crap. Why will grown soldiers fight innocent agiainst infants? Name it Human sacrifice or Murdering 300 men on a mountain coz they worship baaal. According to you, You wipe out a Group of people "synonymous" with "evil". That's very rich. Kill innocent children and label them synonymous with evil. Their only crime? They were born to the wrong parents. Clap for yourselves.

3. Christians now and the jews of old worship Idols as far as other people are concerned. The same way you view other peoples Gods as Idols so also they have a right to view yours as idols. And since when has someone else worshipping another God been a justification for genocide, infanticide and ethnic cleansing?

4 . As for your rant about Deut 7. Yea I read the remaining passages. What did I see there? I sent u to kill them, and their babies because I love only you and promised your fathers their land Are you insane? Erm how does that Justify the killing of babies and children? WHAT WAS THEIR CRIME? You are yet to answer this very simple question. They are now "tumours" right? Tell that to the US Army. They'll surely find your Tumour application useful in afghanistan and Murder everyone afterall they are in a state of "war". The war woulda been over years ago.

5. You keep missing what's infront of you and dancing around. "reasonable reason for completely
barbaric,pointless and baffling human
sacrifices". Well, its the same reason why Your God is allowed to wake up one morning and Murder 70,000 people because of a census or command that entire cities including children be wiped out and he is not labelled evil. Maybe I shlould leave it the the Great Nuclearboy to answer you in simple clear terms. Infact I couldn't have put it any better.

nuclearboy:

Misleading if not provocative!

I breed table catfish and the next time anyone here decides to visit me, will take a couple and cut them up as table fare. Would I (and guest) then be mass-murderers?  Well, maybe from the point of view of the fish but would anyone here agree with them?

Why can't we be honest for once? How do you wish to compare God (creator) to a "mother" who accompanies on a theiving spree.Does not the OWNER have right over His property?

Thank you Nuclearboy.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-552568.0.html#msg7169723

The same way Yahweh has a right to order the death of anyone and everyone including infants, SO Do the Gods of our Land. They created us all and can demand 1 million heads for their gratification. Does not the OWNER have right over His property? If you don't like this, take it up with Nuclearboy.

6; well well well, you agree Jesus came to right the "wrongs" of the old testament. I like that. You do admit your God got it wrong. So also african traditional religions. There is a reformation going on. Just like the reformed ogboni fraternity and others where old unhealthy practices have been thrown aside. There are some bad eggs yes but that doesn't mean others aren't trying to reform. That u look down on them because of their tainted history when yours is also as bloody nad dirty just makes you a HYPOCRITE.

7. The Gods are said to be Just and fair. They do not condone evil or greed. So those who you mentioned using pregnant women, albinos, bla bla bla, human parts for money making rituals, political power, protection etc they are strictly on their own and the Gods do not accept such.

8. And as for this, "moreover the instances you have given
WERE IN A STATE OF
WARFARE it is totally different from
COLD BLOODED MURDER", Package it in a cold envelope, seal it then send it to Charles Taylor's lawyers at the war crimes tribunal in the Hague or U can backdate it and address it to Adolf Hitlers Generals in the Nurumberg trial, I'm sure they'll find it useful.

Occultism exposes the soul to undue influences from the beyond, instead I recommend genuine inner reverence of the Almighty and respect for His Laws.

you are a grail adherent!

Please don't be deceived. Occults are demonic. The BIBLE is the only true book. The word of God is not secretive, its open. Be warned.

how ignorant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Imagine someone wantng to join AMORC, fo instance, so dat he o she can make some magical or 'ritual' money! I cant help laughng t pples ingnoranc

can you tell me what the reasons are people go to churches today
are they not going to church for prosperity?
and for protection against what they call demons?

GODSON2009:

where my problems rise and the moral of my many comments and preamble is that
1.the old testament christians absolutely did not offer human sacrifices at all.they fought and killed in a state of warfare.

2.now with the pre colonial progenitors,they did not only do the same thing like i have pointed out above but they sacrificed human beings for the sake of several gods.
they killed millions of people in cold blood this is my main issue,

please do two things for me
1.show me where all these happened in the bible
2.justify/rationalise this for me
and i will accept whatever you want

15you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it and all that is in it and its cattle with the edge of the sword. 16“Then you shall gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; and it shall be a ruin forever. It shall never be rebuilt

Deuteronomy 13


30Jephthah made a vow to the LORD and said, “If You will indeed give the sons of Ammon into my hand, 31then it shall be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Ammon, it shall be the LORD’S, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering.”

34When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, behold, his daughter was coming out to meet him with tambourines and with dancing.

39At the end of two months she returned to her father, who did to her according to the vow which he had made;

Judges 11

harakiri:

@godson2009. . . I have followed this thread from inception till now and read EVERY comment, so accusing me of not "understanding completely" is unwarranted. I'm also sorry to burst your bubble but is are instances in the bible where the biblical god accepted and even demanded human sacrifice. Let me remind you of two : First is ABRAHAM who went as far as preparing a sacrficial alter, tied his son and actually put a knife to his neck and would have beheaded the poor lad if the biblical god hadn't stopped him (whether he completed it or not doesn't matter. That was a classical case of attempted murder and the fact that the biblical god was pleased with Abraham's "faith" says a lot about the moral standards of this god). Second, is some guy (jehosapath or something) sacrificed his daughter (DINAH) to the biblical god after a victorious battle. So much for the questionable moral standards of this god. These examples would land people in jail with lengthy sentences in today's world.

this retort has shown you neither had a rational understanding of the bible and its different happenstances.thank GOD you at least agree that that biblical GOD stopped him from offering his son as a sacrifice. its really funny how you shot yourself in the foot in the first part of the comment lol
you are hillarious honestly if you think jephthah offered his daughter up as a human sacrifice then i guess samuel was offered up as a sacrifice as well ,the 12 disciples were offered up as human sacrifices
pls do not argue based on crass ignorance,you need to get a basic understanding even literal understanding in order to debate from an informed basis

Pastor AIO:

15you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it and all that is in it and its cattle with the edge of the sword. 16“Then you shall gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; and it shall be a ruin forever. It shall never be rebuilt

Deuteronomy 13

english comprehesion sire the burnt offering starts from vs 16 "THEN" MEANS the action in 16 has been seperated from 15 so in effect everything in 16 i.e the booty.
the meaning of booty in the freedictionary online

boo·ty 1 (bt)
n. pl. boo·ties
1. Plunder taken from an enemy in time of war.
2. Goods or property seized by force or piracy.
3. A valuable prize, award, or gain

Pastor AIO:


30Jephthah made a vow to the LORD and said, “If You will indeed give the sons of Ammon into my hand, 31then it shall be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Ammon, it shall be the LORD’S, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering.”

34When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, behold, his daughter was coming out to meet him with tambourines and with dancing.

39At the end of two months she returned to her father, who did to her according to the vow which he had made;

Judges 11

and what was the action the father did to the daughter?guess in your haste you didn even bother to find out?? i have copied and pasted this article i found after a cursory google search maybe this will serve to enlighten you,

Did Jephthah really offer his daughter as a burnt offering to the Lord?
Did Jephthah really offer his daughter as a burnt offering to the Lord? (Judges 11:29-40).

To this one would fain be able to reply, as not a few commentators and others have done, with a definite NO. Their reasons and arguments have been so clearly set forth in a recent article elsewhere, that we cannot here do better than enumerate them in the order given. (1) It is pointed out that human sacrifices were expressly forbidden by the Law (Deuteronomy 18: 9-10). (2) In verse 31, the marginal reading “or” (of the A.V., not R.V., as stated) is adopted, as showing that two alternatives were in Jephthah’s mind: “Whatsoever cometh forth . . . shall surely be the Lord’s, or I will offer it up for a burnt offering.” And it is remarked that, according to Leviticus 27:4, a person thus vowed might be redeemed for money. (3) The daughter’s words, “that I may bewail my virginity” (v. 37), are taken to imply that this was the real outcome of the vow, that she was pledged by her father to perpetual celibacy; and further proof of this is found in the statement of verse 39, “And she knew no man.” (4) At verse 40 the reading, “talk with”, of the A.V. margin, is given preference to the textual reading, “lament”; and it is suggested that for four days in each year the daughters of Israel went to talk with Jephthah’s daughter. We may hope, if only for Jephthah’s own sake, that this view is correct; but there are difficulties in connection with each of the points mentioned which may not be ignored. If we enumerate these also, we shall perhaps put the questioner and others in a position to form their own judgment as to what really took place. (1) While there can be no doubt as to the Lord’s disapproval of human sacrifices, our passage nowhere states that Jephthah’s action met with His approval; and the question is not what the Law forbade, but what a man such as Jephthah, who had lived for some time among the idolatrous Syrians of Tob, might say and might do

http://gospelhall.org/faqs/bible-questions-and-answers--other/did-jephthah-really-offer-his-daughter-as-a-burnt-offering-to-the-lord.htmlsource;

Deuteronomy Chapter 18
9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

@tudor
in your own funny reasoning anyone who doesnt jump up and say yes man i totally agree with you is going on a merry go round?looool
if you care to go through your comments you are actually stuck in the rut repeating the same thing at least i am making the effort to dance round you are standing still ignorantly resolute on the same points and then adding some half truths from your understanding of the bible.
lil busy now,i ll come post a retort to your newest offering from the stable of "lalalala im right you r wrong

@dumbson2009. . . You are indeed dumber than a sack of bricks! Inspite of all the rational comments made by myself,tudor,deepsight and pastor aio, you still choose to argue blindly and in that brainwashed-half baked mind of yours, that's a sign of "intelligence". Normally, i dont bother replying trolls and attention seekers such as yourself who relish making baseless myopic arguments all day but i guess i'm in a tolerant mood. Please grab your milk and cookies, then read your bible with a sound mind while relaxing on dad's chair. Putz!

harakiri:

@dumbson2009. . . You are indeed dumber than a sack of bricks! Inspite of all the rational comments made by myself,tudor,deepsight and pastor aio, you still choose to argue blindly and in that brainwashed-half baked mind of yours, that's a sign of "intelligence". Normally, i dont bother replying trolls and attention seekers such as yourself who relish making baseless myopic arguments all day but i guess i'm in a tolerant mood. Please grab your milk and cookies, then read your bible with a sound mind while relaxing on dad's chair. Putz!

you are a proper idiot,and i can assure you on my worst days your single cell of a brain will never ,match up to my intellect.who gave you the monopoly of wisdom or rationality over another human being??
if you dont have any sensible comment to make piss off and slide out of my sight, dont worry i have been around intellectually inadequate ppl like you and i know how to handle them.
you try using verbal barbs,and put me downs to suffice for your ignorance,dont press my buttons or you will feel the acidic part of my comments cause this is just a taster, ass wipe!

@dumba$$2009 and beyond. . . Your problem is you are incapable of reading/understanding what is written (including YOUR OWN write ups! Pathetic). You say i use verbal barbs and put downs? Perhaps you should call your english instructor to read through all that was written and it would be clear to you that derogatory remarks started with you and you've used them sparingly. You say my intellect isn't up to ur (dead) brain cells? Well, my fellow readers will be the judge of that. I no blame u. Na free forum cause am.

Tudór:

You dey mind the dude? Just interested in going merry go round.

1. Fact; I have shown your God has no problems receiving the blood of a Human for sins. Be it his son, cousin, or Uncle's blood no one gives a hoot. Not all Gods can produce sons. Human blood is Human blood.

this is where personal beliefs differ,i really cant comment on this cause this comment is not only erroneous in its entirety but begaars belief, symbolism plays a huge part here and if you dont get that by now then im sorry i cant help you

Tudór:

2. Fact; I have shown you where your God commanded the death/ MURDER of innocents including infants, babies, innocent children, pregnant women, virgins etc. Whether they were murdered as a Human sacrifice or not No one gives a hoot. Basic thing THEY Where KILLED on The INSTRUCTIOn OF YOUR GOD. Murder is murder.

murder is not murder that is why soldiers in afghanistan/iraq were not prosecuted in a court oflaw but osama bin laden and his co horts had a bounty on their head i really cant explain it to you clearer than that

Tudór:

4. Fact. Murder is Murder. Killing babies is Killing babies call it war, ritual or raids. No one gives a crap. Why will grown soldiers fight innocent agiainst infants? Name it Human sacrifice or Murdering 300 men on a mountain coz they worship baaal. According to you, You wipe out a Group of people "synonymous" with "evil". That's very rich. Kill innocent children and label them synonymous with evil. Their only crime? They were born to the wrong parents. Clap for yourselves.

in a state of war,there is something called collateral damage,unlike your gods he did not demand that babies blood should be shed in sacrificial obedience to him they were caught in the cross fire same way children and innocents were killed on bombing and strafing raids in modern day war situation.
as for the prophets of baal,go and do some reading aroung that event before interjecting conjectures here,i wont even dignify it with an answer

Tudór:

3. Christians now and the jews of old worship Idols as far as other people are concerned. The same way you view other peoples Gods as Idols so also they have a right to view yours as idols. And since when has someone else worshipping another God been a justification for genocide, infanticide and ethnic cleansing?

fair enough the problem is that i dont bow down to any graven image which is the basic explanation of idol worship, your gods are seen as idols cause they are noting more than graven images that people pour blood,oil and what not on
you have a right to your believe that david and his followers killing the amalekites,is a proper justificatio and rationalisation for using all sorts of people for ritual,im sorry i dont share that belief as i see it as cold blooded murder IMO

Tudór:

4 . As for your rant about Deut 7. Yea I read the remaining passages. What did I see there? I sent u to kill them, and their babies because I love only you and promised your fathers their land Are you insane? Erm how does that Justify the killing of babies and children? WHAT WAS THEIR CRIME? You are yet to answer this very simple question. They are now "tumours" right? Tell that to the US Army. They'll surely find your Tumour application useful in afghanistan and Murder everyone afterall they are in a state of "war". The war woulda been over years ago.

since its obvious you neither have the basic understandingnor the exigesis of not only deut7 nor other instances of this nature in the bible i guess i can knock you on that note.the israelites were a group of liberated slaves passing through enemy territory for 40 years,many either wanted to conquer them for the booty they had to take them as slaves e.t.c so unless you are advocating that because they were in the bible,they should not fight their way out but keep running or praying then i will be interested to know what you would have done differently in the same situation, go and check the quran which i have read extensively and ahadiths,during the meccan  times but mostly a large part of the medinan times and crusades of the prophet mohammad this was the same way he was able to build his islamic community so this transends christianity or whatever you want to call it. when david went out to war why didnt you give the example of the people that destroyed everything he had and then take his wives and children as slaves?
before making comments on history,go and study it,what the situation was like then and how people across the board settled scores

Tudór:

5. You keep missing what's infront of you and dancing around. "reasonable reason for completely
barbaric,pointless and baffling human
sacrifices". Well, its the same reason why Your God is allowed to wake up one morning and Murder 70,000 people because of a census or command that entire cities including children be wiped out and he is not labelled evil. Maybe I shlould leave it the the Great Nuclearboy to answer you in simple clear terms. Infact I couldn't have put it any better.

im the one dancing round while the only recurrent point you have been harping on from the beginning till now is the murder of 70,000 people in a state of warfare i might add as justification for the continuous,pre meditated systematic cold blooded murder of new born babies amongst other demographics you r a star honestly

Tudór:

The same way Yahweh has a right to order the death of anyone and everyone including infants, SO Do the Gods of our Land. They created us all and can demand 1 million heads for their gratification. Does not the OWNER have right over His property? If you don't like this, take it up with Nuclearboy.

true but you are missing something here in your obstinacy to keep on banging at the same wall
1.they were defending and fighting their way through enemy territory(to confirm this google the map of the journey of the israelites after they left egypt)
2.our progenys and your gods had no such connundrum,they had absolutely no need for the bloodshed which is what is pissing me off
why would anyone tell me then to celebrate the anniversary of one of his many gods,they dont want goat,cow but human blood then every year in sucession isnt that preposterous
isnt it awesomely stupid for anyone to say that the skin of another human being made into a cream and applied over them will cause people to vote for them in an election and you are seriously rationalising these kind of actions against the israelites in the middle with enemies surrounding them seriously

Tudór:

6; well well well, you agree Jesus came to right the "wrongs" of the old testament. I like that. You do admit your God got it wrong. So also african traditional religions. There is a reformation going on. Just like the reformed ogboni fraternity and others where old unhealthy practices have been thrown aside. There are some bad eggs yes but that doesn't mean others aren't trying to reform. That u look down on them because of their tainted history when yours is also as bloody nad dirty just makes you a HYPOCRITE.

i dont just agree,its in the bible and what he said was that there was no need to sacrifice goats and bullocks for the forgiveness of sin and this was the right he came to correct its in the bible or a quick google search will highlight this for you.
well i see your idea of reformation is the ritual murders going on in different parts of africa,and i guess you can vouch for the so called reformed ogboni that they absolutely dont have anything to do with human sacrifice on their say so?

Tudór:

7. The Gods are said to be Just and fair. They do not condone evil or greed. So those who you mentioned using pregnant women, albinos, bla bla bla, human parts for money making rituals, political power, protection etc they are strictly on their own and the Gods do not accept such.

they r not just neither are they fair they are the personification of evil and if they are not greedy they wont keep on demanding for so much blood even in this day and age.if they dont accept the pregnant women,albinos and what not who are all those people sacrificing to their alter ego?
you are not allowed to conclusiely say your gods are just and fair when all the evidence shows otherwise,when you have not being to give any rational reason for their blood sacrifices.its funny you are now the spokes person for those gods,maybe you should ask them to please start accepting the blood of goats and chicken in place of innocent virgin children,albinos human heads

Tudór:

8. And as for this, "moreover the instances you have given
WERE IN A STATE OF
WARFARE it is totally different from
COLD BLOODED MURDER", Package it in a cold envelope, seal it then send it to Charles Taylor's lawyers at the war crimes tribunal in the Hague or U can backdate it and address it to Adolf Hitlers Generals in the Nurumberg trial, I'm sure they'll find it useful.

phew!not again, charles taylor committed cold blooded murder by getting his soldiers to hack off human hands,using children as soldiers, i wonder where that resonates?? i mean hacking of human body parts and children being expressely and deliberately used
so far all you have continually harped on is the rationalisation of war on the basis of GOD commanding the israelites to fight the amalekites the difficult one for you to explain you have ignored and glossed over i.e rational justification for wholesale murder and blood and human sacrifice and i might add as well cannibalism, im sure you know your progenitors especially in certain parts of nigeria that i wouldnt like to mention still indulge in till the present time?

harakiri:

@dumba$$2009 and beyond. . . Your problem is you are incapable of reading/understanding what is written (including YOUR OWN write ups! Pathetic). You say i use verbal barbs and put downs? Perhaps you should call your english instructor to read through all that was written and it would be clear to you that derogatory remarks started with you and you've used them sparingly. You say my intellect isn't up to your (dead) brain cells? Well, my fellow readers will be the judge of that. I no blame u. Na free forum cause am.

guess i will be obliged if you pointed out where i have directed derogatory remarks at your person,not even Tudor that i have been arguing with did i use derogatory remarks at.
free and friendly advice for you,its not a must to post comments when intellectual discussions/debates are going on if you have something to add then do so without allowing verbal barbs to take anything out of your comments as it will not make you sound intelligent but the opposite either you or anyone accept my stance on the issues under discussion is of no issue,after all we all have different beliefs and the world will be boring if we all did the same thing but dont even call anyone dumb or stupid or whatever just cause they dont agree with you,
people like you in real life will probably slap or get violent when arguing and its not going your way

GODSON2009:

its either you have not read my comments in its entirety regarding this issue,or you have completely misunderstood them let me try and simplify/break it down.

1.on the side of the bible and old testament-everyone settled scores by war,fighting taking of slavery etc
on the side of our progenitors in pre colonial times they also settled scores this way

now on both these accounts i have absolutely no problems with it simply because i know for whatever reason that was the way scores were settled not just by these two but the whole world.
if you check my comments i further highlighted a point which would seem to be a disadvantage to me which tudor  and deepsight didnt even know/nor mentioned once i.e that apostle paul in the new testament in some of his comments also condoned/tolerated slavery.

where my problems rise and the moral of my many comments and preamble is that
1.the old testament christians absolutely did not offer human sacrifices at all.they fought and killed in a state of warfare. for each ocassion where this happened there was a reason either you agree with it or not. dont just read 2/3 verses check the exegesis and the conclusion this is the way to get to the buttom of an issue not picking up a few points in the middle.this is not to say i am saying it is right.

2.now with the pre colonial progenitors,they did not only do the same thing like i have pointed out above but they sacrificed human beings for the sake of several gods.
they killed millions of people in cold blood this is my main issue,
for instance can you justify or rationalise abandoning new born babies in evil forest to be devoured by wild animals, bitten from their internal organs by soldier ants till they died a violent death not by strangers but people who lived in the same communities with them greeted them not strangers.

cn you rationalise or justify using a 12 yrs old girl for sacrifice because she a virgin?this is not by strangers but people in her community some who she called brother or uncle.

can you justify burying several life breathing human beings with a dead king so that they can go and serve him in the after life all under the guise of tradition?
please do two things for me
1.show me where all these happened in the bible
2.justify/rationalise this for me
and i will accept whatever you want

I provided instances for the bolded above and what did i get? A rebuttal.

GODSON2009:

this retort has shown you neither had a rational understanding of the bible and its different happenstances.thank GOD you at least agree that that biblical GOD stopped him from offering his son as a sacrifice. its really funny how you shot yourself in the foot in the first part of the comment lol
you are hillarious honestly if you think jephthah offered his daughter up as a human sacrifice then i guess samuel was offered up as a sacrifice as well ,the 12 disciples were offered up as human sacrifices
pls do not argue based on crass ignorance,you need to get a basic understanding even literal understanding in order to debate from an informed basis

Anybody who read what i wrote would think differently but you just had to use snide remarks to make up for your losses. Still need more indicators of your rudeness?

GODSON2009:

you are a proper ,and i can assure you on my worst days your single cell of a brain will never ,match up to my intellect.who gave you the monopoly of wisdom or rationality over another human being??
if you dont have any sensible comment to make piss off and slide out of my sight, dont worry i have been around intellectually inadequate ppl like you and i know how to handle them.
you try using verbal barbs,and put me downs to suffice for your ignorance,dont press my buttons or you will feel the acidic part of my comments cause this is just a taster, backside wipe!

For someone who's accusing someone else of using rude verbatim, you sure have a dictionary of your own.

GODSON2009:

guess i will be obliged if you pointed out where i have directed derogatory remarks at your person,not even Tudor that i have been arguing with did i use derogatory remarks at.
free and friendly advice for you,its not a must to post comments when intellectual discussions/debates are going on if you have something to add then do so without allowing verbal barbs to take  anything out of your comments as it will not make you sound intelligent but the opposite either you or anyone accept my stance on the issues under discussion is of no issue,after all we all have different beliefs and the world will be boring if we all did the same thing but dont even call anyone dumb or silly or whatever just cause they dont agree with you,
people like you in real life will probably slap or get violent when arguing and its not going your way

I have already shown you where you erred and got insultive but i already know you're incapable of seeing or acknowledging your own mistakes. You see, i know your type very well. You come on here arguing blindly with everyone who's perspective differs from yours and when you feel insecure, you lash out at the person. . .when the person replies you in the same language, you turn around and accuse the person of what you started and are guilty of. Your types come a dime a dozen. You think having access to the internet and bantering nonsense with your betters makes you "intelligent". You think talking crap to your betters gives you an "edge". You are boring and pathetic and if today wasn't a slow Sunday, i wouldn't even bother giving a troll like you the time of day. Let me illustrate the kind of dumba$$ you really are :

TOPIC : Simple Arithmetic

dumba$$2009 : My bible says 1+1 = 700

Bleep : Er, actually it's 2 not 700

dumba$$2009 : You don't have thorough understanding of the bible and if you weren't ignorant, you would know that 1+1 = 700

Bleep : Wow, that was uncalled for but i guess the author of the bible must be as ignorant as you are

dumba$$2009 : Are you calling me ignorant? Don't worry. I don't have time for people like you who can't have a "rational" discussion without insulting people. If you know who i am, you will know that your unintelligent mind is not up to one of my (dead) brain cells. If you do not believe that 1+1=700, then don't bother commenting on this thread. I only debate with people of "high" intellect and not your type. . .blah blah blah

Bleep : ***wonders if this person is really this mentally reetarded or making it up***

GODSON2009:

english comprehesion sire the burnt offering starts from vs 16 "THEN" MEANS the action in 16 has been seperated from 15 so in effect everything in 16 i.e the booty.
the meaning of booty in the freedictionary online

boo·ty 1 (bt)
n. pl. boo·ties
1. Plunder taken from an enemy in time of war.
2. Goods or property seized by force or piracy.
3. A valuable prize, award, or gainand what was the action the father did to the daughter?guess in your haste you didn even bother to find out?? i have copied and pasted this article i found after a cursory google search maybe this will serve to enlighten you,

Thank you so much for explaining the meaning of booties and showing me how to read the text. In fact it illustrates my point that any text can be read in any way depending on the creative intelligence of the reader. I will take your point and read the passage only from verse 16, ignoring verse 15. This is still what I get:

16“Then you shall gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God;

I still see a city being burnt (with all it's booty, not just the booty alone). Since we have separated the booty from the rest of the city what does the city that is being burnt consist of?

GODSON2009:
and what was the action the father did to the daughter?guess in your haste you didn even bother to find out?? i have copied and pasted this article i found after a cursory google search maybe this will serve to enlighten you,


Did Jephthah really offer his daughter as a burnt offering to the Lord?
Did Jephthah really offer his daughter as a burnt offering to the Lord? (Judges 11:29-40).

To this one would fain be able to reply, as not a few commentators and others have done, with a definite NO. Their reasons and arguments have been so clearly set forth in a recent article elsewhere, that we cannot here do better than enumerate them in the order given. (1) It is pointed out that human sacrifices were expressly forbidden by the Law (Deuteronomy 18: 9-10). (2) In verse 31, the marginal reading “or” (of the A.V., not R.V., as stated) is adopted, as showing that two alternatives were in Jephthah’s mind: “Whatsoever cometh forth . . . shall surely be the Lord’s, or I will offer it up for a burnt offering.” And it is remarked that, according to Leviticus 27:4, a person thus vowed might be redeemed for money. (3) The daughter’s words, “that I may bewail my virginity” (v. 37), are taken to imply that this was the real outcome of the vow, that she was pledged by her father to perpetual celibacy; and further proof of this is found in the statement of verse 39, “And she knew no man.” (4) At verse 40 the reading, “talk with”, of the A.V. margin, is given preference to the textual reading, “lament”; and it is suggested that for four days in each year the daughters of Israel went to talk with Jephthah’s daughter. We may hope, if only for Jephthah’s own sake, that this view is correct; but there are difficulties in connection with each of the points mentioned which may not be ignored. If we enumerate these also, we shall perhaps put the questioner and others in a position to form their own judgment as to what really took place. (1) While there can be no doubt as to the Lord’s disapproval of human sacrifices, our passage nowhere states that Jephthah’s action met with His approval; and the question is not what the Law forbade, but what a man such as Jephthah, who had lived for some time among the idolatrous Syrians of Tob, might say and might do

http://gospelhall.org/faqs/bible-questions-and-answers--other/did-jephthah-really-offer-his-daughter-as-a-burnt-offering-to-the-lord.htmlsource;

I don't know why you quoted the above. Is it that it is what you believe, or is it a red herring? Or could it really be that you quoted it 'to serve to enlighten me'? The article does not actually state what happens. It seems to me that it is just wriggling about trying to squirm its way out of the difficult position. After speculating whether or not Jephthah could have done such a thing, it then says that whether he did it or not it doesn't matter cos it doesn't say that God approved of it, and in fact God in Deuteronomy expressly disapproved.
It is all rather long-winded, and I have a preference for just following what the bible said in simplicity.

39At the end of two months she returned to her father, who did to her according to the vow which he had made;

What was the vow? To offer her as a burnt offering! simples.

Deuteronomy Chapter 18
9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter[b] to pass through the fire,[/b] or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

Now to come to this very interesting bible verse. This is what you and also the writer of the not-very-interesting article you quoted use to show that God would not condone human sacrifice.
Alas for you, human sacrifice is not mentioned in the text. What you seem to understand as human sacrifice (and many other translators have made this error too so you are in good company) is the line 'to pass through the fire'. However to accept this translation is to betray an ignorance of Canaanite religion, and also other pagan religions the world over.
To Pass over the fire was means, quite literally, to pass over fire. This was a rite that was done to purify the celebrants. In some parts they jump through a ring of fire or they jump over a bonfire. These practices were usually tied to the solstice celebrations and they are still practiced in Europe and other parts of the middle east till this day. A lot of solstice rites are still practiced within christendom as Christmas celebrations and Midsummer's Eve Celebrations (themed around the birth of St. John the Baptist).

In Croatia, midsummer is called Ivanje (Ivan being Croatian for John). It is celebrated on June 23, mostly in rural areas. Festivals celebrating Ivanje are held across the country. According to the tradition, bonfires (Ivanjski krijesovi) are built on the shores of lakes, near rivers or on the beaches for the young people to jump over the flames.

Estonia

"Jaanipäev" ("John's Day" in English) was celebrated long before the arrival of Christianity in Estonia, although the day was given its name by the crusaders. The arrival of Christianity, however, did not end pagan beliefs and fertility rituals surrounding this holiday. In 1578, Balthasar Russow wrote in his Livonian Chronicle about Estonians who placed more importance on the festival than going to church. He complained about those who went to church, but did not enter, and instead spent their time lighting bonfires, drinking, dancing, singing and following pagan rituals. Midsummer marks a change in the farming year, specifically the break between the completion of spring sowing and the hard work of summer hay-making.

Understandably, some of the rituals of Jaanipäev have very strong folkloric roots. The best-known Jaanik, or midsummer, ritual is the lighting of the bonfire and jumping over it. This is seen as a way of guaranteeing prosperity and avoiding bad luck. Likewise, to not light the fire is to invite the destruction of your house by fire. The fire also frightened away mischievous spirits who avoided it at all costs, thus ensuring a good harvest. So, the bigger the fire, the further the mischievous spirits stayed away.

Germany

The day of sun solstice is called Sommer-Sonnenwende in German. On June 20, 1653 the Nuremberg town council issued the following order: "Where experience herefore have shown, that after the old heathen use, on John's day in every year, in the country, as well in towns as villages, money and wood have been gathered by young folk, and there upon the so-called sonnenwendt or zimmet fire kindled, and thereat winebibbing, dancing about the said fire, leaping over the same, with burning of sundry herbs and flowers, and setting of brands from the said fire in the fields, and in many other ways all manner of superstitious work carried on---Therefore the Hon. Council of Nürnberg town neither can nor ought to forbear to do away with all such unbecoming superstition, paganism, and peril of fire on this coming day of St. John."[citation needed] Bonfires are still a custom in many areas of Germany. People gather to watch the bonfire and celebrate solstice.


Hungary

On June 21 Hungarians celebrate "Saint Ivan's Night" (Szentiván-éj) (Iván derived from the slavic form of John, translated as Jovános, Ivános, Iván in Hungarian). The whole month of June was once called Month of St. Ivan until the 19th century. Setting fires is a folklore tradition this night. Girls jumped over it, [/b]while boys watched the spectacular.[11]


In Latvia, Midsummer is called Jāņi (Jānis being Latvian for John) or Līgo svētki (svētki = festival). It is a national holiday celebrated on a large scale by almost everyone in Latvia and by people of Latvian origin abroad. Celebrations consist of a lot of traditional elements - eating Jāņu cheese, drinking beer, singing hundreds of Latvian folk songs dedicated to Jāņi,[b] burning bonfire to keep light all through the night and jumping over it, wearing wreaths of flowers (for the women) and leaves (for the men) together with modern commercial products and ideas.


Lithuania
See also: Saint Jonas' Festival

Midsummer is commonly called John's Day (Joninės) in Lithuania, and is also known as Saint Jonas' Festival, Rasos (Dew Holiday), Kupolė, Midsummer Day and St. John's Day. It is celebrated in the night from the 23rd of June to the 24th of June and on the 24th June. The traditions include singing songs and dancing until the sun sets, telling tales, searching to find the magic fern blossom at midnight, jumping over bonfires, greeting the rising midsummer sun and washing the face with a morning dew, young girls float flower wreaths on the water of river or lake. These are customs brought from pagan culture and beliefs. The latter Christian tradition is based on the reverence of Saint John. Lithuanians with the names Jonas, Jonė, Janina receive many greetings from their family, relatives and friends.


Russia and Ukraine
Night on the Eve of Ivan Kupala, by Henryk Hector Siemiradzki.

Ivan Kupala was the old Russian name for John the Baptist. Up to the present day, the Russian Midsummer Night (or Ivan's Day) is known as one of the most expressive Russian folk and pagan holidays. Ivan Kupala Day is the day of summer solstice celebrated in Russia and Ukraine on June 23 OS and July 6 NS. This is a pagan fertility rite, which has been accepted into the Orthodox Christian calendar.

Many rites of this holiday are connected with water, fertility and autopurification. The girls, for example, would float their flower garlands on the water of rivers and tell their fortunes from their movement. Lads and girls would jump over the flames of bonfires. Nude bathing is likewise practiced.

Spain
Bonfire at Almadrava beach on Saint John's night. Bonfires are very common in Spain and Portugal.

The traditional midsummer party in Spain is the celebration in honour of San Juan . . . Fire: Bonfires are lit, usually around midnight both on beaches and inland, so much so that one usually cannot tell the smoke from the mist common in this Atlantic corner of Iberia at this time of the year, and it smells burnt everywhere. Occasionally, a dummy is placed at the top, representing a witch or the devil. Young and all gather around them and feast mostly on pilchards, potatoes boiled in their skins and maize bread. When it is relatively safe to jump over the bonfire, it is done three times (although it could also be nine or any odd number) for good luck at the cry of “meigas fora” (witches off!).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsummer

@TUDOR,PASTORAIO AND OTHER SUPPORTERS OF IDOL WORSHIP HERE IS ANOTHER LOVELY GESTURE FROM YOUR COMPATRIOTS,

The arrest of a man who sexually assaulted a five-year-old girl before mutilating her womanliness for rituals has put Adamawa state on the spot.
Doctors say the little girl, survivor of the gruesome attack (name withheld), will require reconstruction of her womanliness because of the severity of the mutilation by the suspect, identified as Kunini Jacob.
The commissioner of police in Adamawa State, Adenrele Shinaba who led the parade of Mr Jacob and an herbalist behind the ritual plot, said there will no longer be a resting place for criminals in the state.
Mr Jacob (23), was arrested along with his mother who was allegedly shielding him from security agents. Incidentally, the suspect was only recently released from jail after serving a three-year jail sentence for a related offence.
Mr Jacob told journalists his action was “the work of the devil” and that he was acting on the instruction of an herbalist who told him to procure the intestine of a virgin along with her private part for ritual to give him instant wealth.
Mr Shinaba said Zidon Digga, at Dong Village in Bidoma Development Area of Adamawa state, reported to the police two weeks ago that his five-year-old daughter was missing. He said the little girl was later found in a pool of her blood and rushed to the state Specialist Hospital for treatment.
Azubike Chuks, leader of the doctors that carried out two sets of emergency surgeries on the child, said when she was brought in, her intestine was outside and that the first operation was to return the intestine.
The report showed that the thin layer separating her womanliness and rectum was mutilated by the attacker. The doctor said a third operation is needed to join the two parts together.
Police investigation, however, led to the arrest of the suspect, as well as the herbalist, Mijinyawa Bala of Dong village. But Mr Bala distanced himself from the crime, saying he did not instigate the main suspect to commit the crime.
The police boss said the suspects will be charged to court for the offence of criminal conspiracy, house trespass, kidnapping, violation and attempt to commit culpable homicide.
The young victim is now at the Yola specialist centre awaiting a third surgery. But Mr Azuibike said this will cost several hundred of thousands, which neither the hospital or the child’s family could afford.
“We appealed to public-spirited persons to help and so far only N20,000 has come in,” he told NEXT
Culture of silence
Recently, the state education board dismissed two teachers found guilty of committing paedophilic acts on pupils under their care. One was a head teacher who impregnated one of a female pupil in one of the sub-urban primary schools in Jimeta, while the other involved a teacher in one of the special schools in Jada.
Bakari Adamawa, state chairman of the state universal basic education board blamed what he called “the culture of silence” for the prevalence of sexual abuse of minors in the state.
“We have called the education secretaries and warned them that they should live up to their duties,” he said. “They should make sure head teachers are aware of what is happening in their schools.
“We are coming out with new codes of conduct for teachers and we are also going to carry put special training for teachers on how to handle children. There was another investigation which we couldn’t conclude because the parent didn’t want to talk about it. You know some parents really don’t want to talk about it. It is a really sad experience and they don’t want to recall it.

harakiri:

@godson2009. . . You appear to be someone is rational and cool headed in most issues EXCEPT religion. DEEP SIGHT, TUDOR and co have clearly pointed the hypocrisy in your arguments and you still remain adamant on the "supreme morality" of the biblical god. To you, it's permitted for your god's "children" to wipe out entire civilizations in their insatiable greed for land but when boko haram/al qeada strikes, you condemn their actions. Asking the opposing posters about their "gods" is tantamount to beating about the bush coz if you haven't noticed, there are loads of NON-RELIGIOUS people on here (including myself) so asking about their "gods" is preposterous and irrational.

YOU STARTED YOUR COMMENT WITH THIS AND I REPLIED YOU IN SAME WAY WITHOUT ANY BARBS THEN YOU SENT THIS WITHOUT ANY PROVOCATION OR PROMPTING JUST BECAUSE I DIDNT SHEEPISHLY KOW TOW TO YOUR VIEWPOINT
BTW YOUR ERRONEOUS EXPLANATION OF THE REASONS AND THE ACTIONS OF JEPHTAH PROMPTED ME TO SAY YOU WERE DISPLAYING IGNORANCE OF THE LITERAL UNDERSTANDING OF THAT EVENT(YOU EVEN SAID JEHOSHAPHAT OR SOMETHING MEANING YOU HAD ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA NOW TELL ME ISNT THAT IGNORANCE OF THE INCIDENT?)
I didnt say you are an ignorant individual because i dont know you in person,i said you are ignorant of the facts and the reasons surrounding this biblical incident

harakiri:

@dumbson2009. . . You are indeed dumber than a sack of bricks! Inspite of all the rational comments made by myself,tudor,deepsight and pastor aio, you still choose to argue blindly and in that brainwashed-half baked mind of yours, that's a sign of "intelligence". Normally, i dont bother replying trolls and attention seekers such as yourself who relish making baseless myopic arguments all day but i guess i'm in a tolerant mood. Please grab your milk and cookies, then read your bible with a sound mind while relaxing on dad's chair. Putz!

so when i read comments of these sort,you expect me to keep quiet and say yes sir,especially as i didnt direct my comments at you,you only picked up some of my comments and took me up on it

harakiri:

@dumba$$2009 and beyond. . . Your problem is you are incapable of reading/understanding what is written (including YOUR OWN write ups! Pathetic). You say i use verbal barbs and put downs? Perhaps you should call your english instructor to read through all that was written and it would be clear to you that derogatory remarks started with you and you've used them sparingly. You say my intellect isn't up to your (dead) brain cells? Well, my fellow readers will be the judge of that. I no blame u. Na free forum cause am.

more of your perfectly proper and respectful comments directed at an individual you dont know?

harakiri:

Anybody who read what i wrote would think differently but you just had to use snide remarks to make up for your losses. Still need more indicators of your rudeness?

dude,i give as good as i get

harakiri:

For someone who's accusing someone else of using rude verbatim, you sure have a dictionary of your own.

same as the instances of your comments that started it
check the comments between me and tudor which has gone more than one page and several lines and look through it if you will find the quantum of verbal barbs therein that is contained in the short comments between me and you even when she throws her put downs in the midst of her retorts.
trust me,i relate or reply comments the same way you send em to me so if you want the caustic,abrasive side of me then bring it on trust me i dont get tired

harakiri:

I have already shown you where you erred and got insultive but i already know you're incapable of seeing or acknowledging your own mistakes. You see, i know your type very well. You come on here arguing blindly with everyone who's perspective differs from yours and when you feel insecure, you lash out at the person.

no sire,you dont know my type,and i can bet you my type will never relate with your ilk,if not for the empty intellectual arrogance what gives you the right or monopoly of wisdom over me or anyone else for that matter?.
are you really serious?so when your viewpoint is different from that of other people,then they must be right and you are wrong?dude you are not only clueless,but you are also not enlightened and i dont think you are used to intellectual debates.you have shown this by saying im arguing blindly because arguing blindly means arguing in a different direction to the topic,going off on a tangent which is clearly not the case or no one will have replied me before you came lumbering in my path like a drunk ogre, now i dont know people like you but i have read intellectually warped comments from people like you who spit out their baby stoppers as soon as anyone dis-agrees with them,i said it in my previous comments and i am repeating it that from what i have noted of your personality and writing style you will probably get violent when people disagree with you and i really pity people around you.

harakiri:

. .when the person replies you in the same language, you turn around and accuse the person of what you started and are guilty of. Your types come a dime a dozen. You think having access to the internet and bantering nonsense with your betters makes you "intelligent". You think talking crap to your betters gives you an "edge". You are boring and pathetic and if today wasn't a slow Sunday, i wouldn't even bother giving a troll like you the time of day. Let me illustrate the kind of dumba$$ you really are :

so you are now my better without even knowing me,a complete stranger who you v not even met before, im sorry but i am sure you are in nigeria, i can bet my last pound on it,dont worry about my internet connection its 24/7 bt wireless
my betters looooooooooooool your mates are in the romance and other forums on nland constituting themselves into a nuisance and i will honestly be surprised if you are more than 20 years old.its either that or your intellect keeps receeding as your age is increasing and you really need to keep a check on it

harakiri:

TOPIC : Simple Arithmetic

dumba$$2009 : My bible says 1+1 = 700

Bleep : Er, actually it's 2 not 700

dumba$$2009 : You don't have thorough understanding of the bible and if you weren't ignorant, you would know that 1+1 = 700

Bleep : Wow, that was uncalled for but i guess the author of the bible must be as ignorant as you are

dumba$$2009 : Are you calling me ignorant? Don't worry. I don't have time for people like you who can't have a "rational" discussion without insulting people. If you know who i am, you will know that your unintelligent mind is not up to one of my (dead) brain cells. If you do not believe that 1+1=700, then don't bother commenting on this thread. I only debate with people of "high" intellect and not your type. . .blah blah blah

Bleep : ***wonders if this person is really this mentally reetarded or making it up***

i will ignore the incoherent drivel you have written and furthermore snippets of your retort have not only highlighted your irrationality and ignorance meaning i was right all along it has also shown you are unreasonable and a sandwich short of a picnic