Sino, there is nothing in your so-called questions that has not been answered. Unfortunately it is you that is running far away and dodging question as per tawil and tafwid in respect to your belief.


As per this hadith which is only my concern:

sino:


Narrated by Kulayni in “Kafi” 1/126:

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Muhammad ibn Isa who has said the following.
“I wrote to Imam abu al-Hassan, Ali ibn Muhammad (a.s.) to clarify a question. May Allah take my soul in your service, O my master, it is narrated to us that Allah is in one place and not in another place on Arsh, (the Throne) resting. He comes down to the sky above the earth every night during the last half of the night. It is narrated that He comes down at the ninth evening of the month of Dhul Hajj and then He returns back to His place. Certain individuals among your friends have said that if He would be found in certain places and not in other places the air must have come in contact with Him and would surround Him because air is a thin form of body that surrounds everything proportionate to its size. How then the air would surround Allah, the Most Holy and the Most High, According to this assumption? The Imam replied in writing, “He has the knowledge of this. He is the best One in having the true measurements of all things.

You must, However, note that His being in the sky over the earth is just as He on the Throne. All things to Him are the same in the matters of His knowledge and power, domination and control.”

Absolutely you are just posting without getting Shia believe as per Tawhid. Again for the last time, Shia do not separate Allah's attributes (siffat) from His Essence (Dhat). We believe both are one. It is your manhaj that believe His Essence resides in one place while His knowledge is in another place.

Read the hadith well please. It is crystal clear and doesn't support your believe. We've given you verses of the Quran where Allah says He is Everywhere and with everything. You are trying to rationalise "How" when you cannot even grasp what is His Essence or His attributes. He is beyond what you think or imagined about Him.


We've quote this ayah before:

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 3:
وَهُوَ اللَّهُ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَفِي الْأَرْضِ يَعْلَمُ سِرَّكُمْ وَجَهْرَكُمْ وَيَعْلَمُ مَا تَكْسِبُونَ

And He is Allah in the heavens and in the earth; He knows your secret (thoughts) and your open (words), and He knows what you earn."

The hadith you've quoted says:

"His being in the sky over the earth is just as He on the Throne. All things to Him are the same in the matters of His knowledge and power, domination and control".


The argument is never Shia's but yours who had separated Allah with His Essence in a place and His attributes in other places.

sino:

hence the expression of faith, while the narration about seeing Allah (SWT) states we would see Allah (SWT) on the day of judgment! It is just as Allah (SWT) described the Israelites when they asked Musa (AS) to show them Allah (SWT) here on earth! They are not related at all!

Allah (SWT) says: "Some faces that Day shall be radiant. Looking at their Lord (Allâh)" [75:22-23:]

This is Allah's statement! Allah (SWT) doesn't contradict himself! And sure does not need your help in doing tawil for His Speech, that is why He (SWT) sent the Prophet (SAW) to explain what we need to know and understand! And the Prophet (SAW) nor the his companions, including the Imams, never denied this truth!

@bold, but your manhaj has the audacity to do tawil of the ayah: "Allah is with them wherever they are" saying it is His knowledge and not His Essence because His Essence resides in Heaven

Or this ayah: "And He is Allah in the heavens and in the Earth". Yet your manhaj has the ball to say "No, only His Essence resides in Heaven and not on earth".

And you hate us doing tawil of a clear ayah (Q.75: 22~23). You can see the depth of hypocrisy and double standard


OUR INTERPRETATION

Surah Al-Qiyam, Verse 22 - 23:
وُجُوهٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ نَّاضِرَةٌ
(Some) faces on that day shall be bright,

إِلَىٰ رَبِّهَا نَاظِرَةٌ
Looking to their Lord."


* Abu Huraira (alongside few other sahabah) narrated that Prophet allegedly says:

فَإِنَّكُمْ سَتَرَوْنَ رَبَّكُمْ كَمَا تَرَوْنَ الْقَمَرَ لَيْلَةَ الْبَدْرِ لاَ تُضَامُّونَ فِي رُؤْيَتِهِ
So verily, you (believers) shall see your Lord as you see the moon on the night of a full moon, you shall not crowd one another to see Him."

Sahih Tirmidhi; English reference : Vol. 4, Book 12, Hadith 2554; Arabic reference : Book 38, Hadith 2752; https://sunnah.com/urn/678600


With this verse influenced by the hadith, Salafi ideology maintained that the believers on the day of judgment shall be able to see Allah.

We say such ideology is not only wrong but also blasphemous. The interpretation of these verses is that those with brighten faces will be "looking to their Lord" joyfully anticipating the reward of their righteous deeds.


# The next two verses prove our interpretations.

 Surah Al-Qiyama, Verse 24 - 25:

وَوُجُوهٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ بَاسِرَةٌ
And (other) faces on that day shall be gloomy,

تَظُنُّ أَن يُفْعَلَ بِهَا فَاقِرَةٌ

Expecting that there will be done to them [something] backbreaking."

Therefore, it is about expectations (looking forward to see rewards) not "seeing or looking at God".

sino:

Your claim of limiting Allah's Speech is redundant, scholars have explained this verse accordingly, first and foremost, the words used are quite different:

...And a group of them interpreted the word “Al-Idrak” in the ayah [6:103] to mean: encompassment, meaning that the sight does not encompass Allah Azza wa Jal, though it sees Him on the day of judgment.

- Qatadah (d. 117 H.) said regarding the interpretation of the ayah: «And He is too Great for the vision to encompass Him.» (Tafsir Tabari (9/459))

- Abu Bakr Al-Ajurri (d. 360 H.) : If someone said: ‘What is the interpretation of His (Allah) saying: {No vision grasps Him}?’, it is said to him: According to the people of knowledge, it means: Visions do not surround Him, nor encompass Him -Azza wa Jal-, and they see him without encompassment, and they do not doubt seeing Him, as a man would say: ‘I have seen the sky’, and he is truthful, and his sight did not encompass the whole sky.” (“As-Shari’ah” (2/1048))

- Ibn Hibban (d. 354 H.) said in his “sahih”: “He is seen on the day of Judgment, and the visions do not encompass Him when it sees Him, for Al-Idrak is encompassment, and Ru’yah is looking, and Allah is seen and not encompassed.”

- Abu Muhammad al-Baghawi (d. 510 H.) said: “Know that Idrak is not the same as ru’yah, because al-Idrak is: to reach the end/extreme limit of something, and encompass it, and ru’yah is to see with the eye. And ru’yah can be without encompassement.” (“Ma’alim At-Tanzil” by Al-Baghawi (3/174))
Source

# You can see the tawil of your scholars and salafs but you hate ours doing their's.


In short, according to your manhaj in line with the opinion of your salaf and ulama above, you will see God in Qiyamat but not in an "encompassing" manner; meaning you can only see "part" of Allah and not His whole. No wonder your hadith say:

1. You will see God like you see the full moon. of course you can only see part of the moon and not the whole moon

2. Abu Huraira alleging you will recognize Allah by a sign on His leg.


The height of error of this assumption is that you have defined Allah to be a compound (murakab) consisting of various parts. Obviously anything with this description has size and dimension and will occupy a space. No wonder you believe He resides in the 7th heaven and absent in others except He moves from one heaven to the other at a particular period of time.

Kindly tell me how that is not tashbih and tajsim

AbdelKabir:
Maybe the shia should be told that hadeeth that talks about the nuzul of Allaah is mutawaatir like the verses of the Qur'an....

Therefore you firmly believe that Allah resides in the 7th heaven and use to come down to 1st heaven passing through 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd, and 2nd heavens. And the moment He reaches one heaven, He is absent in others at that particular period of time

# And the fAct that you believe so much in the "mutawattir" hadith of "His nuzul" from the 7th heaven to the 1st heaven so He can listen to His servants making duas makes you blind or do kufr or do gymnastic interpretation on the these noble verses:

1. و هو الله في السماوات و في الأرض
And He is Allah in the heavens and in earth (An'am:3)

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 4:

.... وَهُوَ مَعَكُمْ أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُمْ وَاللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ
... and He is with you wherever you are, and Allah sees what you do."


2. Surah Qaf, Verse 16:
وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنسَانَ وَنَعْلَمُ مَا تُوَسْوِسُ بِهِ نَفْسُهُ وَنَحْنُ أَقْرَبُ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ حَبْلِ الْوَرِيدِ

And certainly We created man, and We know what his mind suggests to him, and We are nearer to him than his life-vein.

3. Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 186:
وَإِذَا سَأَلَكَ عِبَادِي عَنِّي فَإِنِّي قَرِيبٌ أُجِيبُ دَعْوَةَ الدَّاعِ إِذَا دَعَانِ فَلْيَسْتَجِيبُوا لِي وَلْيُؤْمِنُوا بِي لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْشُدُونَ

And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way.


It is noteworthy how you believe in the LITERAL MEANING of Allah's "nuzul from one heaven to the other " but there is a need NEVER TO BELIEVE IN THE LITERAL MEANING of the abovementioned verses because it will crumble your manhaj. And people of your manhaj will come out and say, "we do not do tawil of the Quran. We leave it as Allah say it"
.

AlBaqir:


Therefore you firmly believe that Allah resides in the 7th heaven and use to come down to 1st heaven passing through 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd, and 2nd heavens. And the moment He reaches one heaven, He is absent in others at that particular period of time

# And the fAct that you believe so much in the "mutawattir" hadith of "His nuzul" from the 7th heaven to the 1st heaven so He can listen to His servants making duas makes you blind or do kufr or do gymnastic interpretation on the these noble verses:

1. و هو الله في السماوات و في الأرض
And He is Allah in the heavens and in earth (An'am:3)

2. Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 186:
وَإِذَا سَأَلَكَ عِبَادِي عَنِّي فَإِنِّي قَرِيبٌ أُجِيبُ دَعْوَةَ الدَّاعِ إِذَا دَعَانِ فَلْيَسْتَجِيبُوا لِي وَلْيُؤْمِنُوا بِي لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْشُدُونَ

And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way.


And people of your manhaj will come out and say, "we do not do tawil of the Quran. We leave it as Allah say it"

We believe in his attribute of nuzul just as how the mutawaatir hadeeth has mentioned, how that happens it is none of our business. But you people don't ever understand that. All the problem come from you people who try to use your deficient brain to understand his attribute, you cannever understand it fully, so you just believe in it, just as how Allaah nsmed muslms aa those that believe in the unseen........ When say we believe an attribute we are not concerned with how that happens since Allaah saus "he has power over All things" we only say "yes Allaah said he does this and we believe he can do it" but how he does it, we don't know, simple.......The hadeeth in terms of number of people that narrated is has the status of the verses you are quoting now, so you can never call it "bogus hadeeth" except if you don't know what mutawaatir is.

AbdelKabir:


We believe in his attribute of nuzul just as how the mutawaatir hadeeth has mentioned, how that happens it is none of our business. But you people don't ever understand that. All the problem come from you people who try to use your deficient brain to understand his attribute, you cannever understand it fully, so you just believe in it, just as how Allaah nsmed muslms aa those that believe in the unseen........ When say we believe an attribute we are not concerned with how that happens since Allaah saus "he has power over All things" we only say "yes Allaah said he does this and we believe he can do it" but how he does it, we don't know, simple.......The hadeeth in terms of number of people that narrated is has the status of the verses you are quoting now, so you can never call it "bogus hadeeth" except if you don't know what mutawaatir is.

Now you are getting furious for being exposed of your hypocrisy. Again if you believe those attributes without interpretation (tawil), why do you do tawil for these verses and not leave them as they are:

. و هو الله في السماوات و في الأرض
And He is Allah in the heavens and in earth (An'am:3)

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 4:

.... وَهُوَ مَعَكُمْ أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُمْ وَاللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ
... and He is with you wherever you are, and Allah sees what you do."


You can see the hypocrisy of your manhaj


# Your problem is you have taken what suit your wahabi manhaj from different views of your entire salafs and ulama (of the mainstream AhluSunnah).

You can read their different tawil of the "nuzul" of Allah here:

http://sunnah.org/wp/2012/09/29/the-hadiths-of-allahs-descent/


However here's their summary altogether:

Summary
In sum the hadith is interpreted in two ways: the first is: His command or His angel descends; the second is: it is a metaphor for His regard for supplicants, His answering them, and so forth.

AlBaqir:



Now you are getting furious for being exposed of your hypocrisy. Again if you believe those attributes without interpretation (tawil), why do you do tawil for these verses and not leave them as they are:

. و هو الله في السماوات و في الأرض
And He is Allah in the heavens and in earth (An'am:3)

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 4:

.... وَهُوَ مَعَكُمْ أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُمْ وَاللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ
... and He is with you wherever you are, and Allah sees what you do."


You can see the hypocrisy of your manhaj

We did tawil of the verses or the Quran explained itself? Allaah says in suratut talaaq

وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ أَحَاطَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عِلْمًا

and that Allaah surrounds all things with(his)Knowledge.

So this ayah al-muhkamah has explained the ones you quoted telling us Allaah is near and with us with his knowledge! The tawil we reject is the one you can't find any proof for, but if there is a proof for any tawil done either from the kitab or sunnah USING THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE SAHABAS AND THEIR STUDENTS, then the tawil is accepted, so the tawil you guys do, like saying "hand of Allaah means power and strength" and some other nonsense interpretations, do you have any sahabah or their students understanding it that way?

# Your problem is you have taken what suit your wahabi manhaj from different views of your entire salafs and ulama (of the mainstream AhluSunnah).

I beg your pardon, which salafs are you talking about?: Pls mention any sahabah or the tabi'i or the tabi' tabi'een that understands the verses with your own tawil...

You can read their different tawil of the "nuzul" of Allah here:

http://sunnah.org/wp/2012/09/29/the-hadiths-of-allahs-descent/


However here's their summary altogether:

Summary
In sum the hadith is interpreted in two ways: the first is: His command or His angel descends; the second is: it is a metaphor for His regard for supplicants, His answering them, and so forth.

.
Command descends? The hadeeth says, Allaah will say "who will call on me so I'll answer? who'll ask me so I'll give him? who'll seek for forgiveness so I'll forgive him?"

If your intellect is still sound, can "command" say those words? Or can angels say those words, who forgives other than Allaah? Who gives other than Allaah? Who answers other than Allaah?? So the nonsense tawil of his command or angels descending is rubbish...

And as for your metaphor, who among the sahabah understands it this way?? You can never provide.

I don't know why you people give yourselves unnecessary headache Allaah says:

ولا يحيطون بشيء من علمه الا بما شاء

And they cannot comprehend anything from his knowledge EXCEPT WHAT HE WILLS

So why don't you work with what Allaah has told us and leave off what he has hidden from us??

Allaah has hidden the knowledge of these things from us, why not stay where the salafs have stayed and be among those Allaah said: those who believe in the unseen?!

You can never fully comprehend Allaah, so stop doing what you were not ordered to do.

AlBaqir:

 Surah Al-Qiyama, Verse 24 - 25:

وَوُجُوهٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ بَاسِرَةٌ
And (other) faces on that day shall be gloomy,

تَظُنُّ أَن يُفْعَلَ بِهَا فَاقِرَةٌ

Expecting that there will be done to them [something] backbreaking."

Therefore, it is about expectations (looking forward to see rewards) not "seeing or looking at God".

Even Arabic language bears witness against this interpretation that has no basis...

The word نظر.has three meanings when used in three different ways! If used alone it means to wait! That is where انتظر came from, if it is accompanied with في it means to think about something and brainstorm! If it is accompanied with الى it means to look at something literally.... In the verse it was accompanied with الى .

*Modified*

Maybe I should also add that, the ones whose faces will be gloomy on that day are the disbelievers as evident from the verse and they will be thinking that a calamity is about to befall them. Note that the disbelievers will never ever see Allaah, so using their "expectation" to interpret what the "nadhar" in the previous verses means is ridiculous! In fact we can say, since the disbelievers won't see their lord, then the opposite will be the believers will see their lord! But only the Arabic analysis there is sufficient...

AbdelKabir:


Even Arabic language bears witness against this interpretation that has no basis...

The word نظر.has three meanings when used in three different ways! If used alone it means to wait! That is where انتظر came from, if it is accompanied with في it means to think about something and brainstorm! If it is accompanied with الى it means to look at something literally.... In the verse it was accompanied with الى .

# Ogbeni, that is LITERAL MEANING. Not every literal meaning gives correct interpretations. On this thread, I have cited several examples if you care to reverse back.

If Yoruba say, "A nwo oju Olohun - We are looking at God's eye", that should never ever be interpreted literally. Rather, the interpretation is "we are expecting God's favor".

# Imagine the height of your hypocrisy once again:


#. You are very quick to be literal in إلى ربها ناظرة - looking at their Lord", why not going literal for و هو الله في السماوات و في الأرض - He is Allah IN the heavens and IN earth". Is في - IN" literally not meant "inside" something?

And with that you believe Allah is IN the 7th heaven ONLY and not IN other heavens and earth contrary to the LITERAL MEANING of the ayah.

Why are you doing Armageddon of the brain to yourself when Allah Himself has said:

لا تدركه الأبصار وهو يدرك الأبصار - No vision can grasp Him and He grasps all visions..."

Are you deaf of this ayah? There is nothing other than trying to bend Quran to agree with the hadith that says you will see your Lord like you see the full moon with no difficulty. And like I told your brother who quoted your salaf saying "adriku is to encompass" and that "no one will be able to encompass Allah", does that mean only a part of Him you will be seeing afterall it is only a part of the full moon you can see and not whole

AbdelKabir:


We did tawil of the verses or the Quran explained itself? Allaah says in suratut talaaq

وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ أَحَاطَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عِلْمًا

and that Allaah surrounds all things with(his)Knowledge.

So this ayah al-muhkamah has explained the ones you quoted telling us Allaah is near and with us with his knowledge! The tawil we reject is the one you can't find any proof for, but if there is a proof for any tawil done either from the kitab or sunnah USING THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE SAHABAS AND THEIR STUDENTS, then the tawil is accepted, so the tawil you guys do, like saying "hand of Allaah means power and strength" and some other nonsense interpretations, do you have any sahabah or their students understanding it that way?

# So, in short
وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ أَحَاطَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عِلْمًا

and that Allaah surrounds all things with(his)Knowledge."

That includes the 7th heaven and ar'sh in which your manhaj believe Allah resides or are those two not part of كل شيء - things?


# Now, when Allah uses هو and الله that is "He" and "Allah" in this ayah (and other ayah):

و هو الله في السماوات و في الأرض - He is Allah in the heavens and in earth ",

* Your manhaj says Allah's Essence (He or Allah) is actually in the heavens while His knowledge is with us and other things in earth. Here, Allah's Essence is separated from His attribute.

How can "He" and "Allah" signify "attribute" in the verse if you oppose us when we say that Allah's Essence and His attributes can never be separated?

AbdelKabir:


I beg your pardon, which salafs are you talking about?: Pls mention any sahabah or the tabi'i or the tabi' tabi'een that understands the verses with your own tawil...


.
Command descends? The hadeeth says, Allaah will say "who will call on me so I'll answer? who'll ask me so I'll give him? who'll seek for forgiveness so I'll forgive him?"

If your intellect is still sound, can "command" say those words? Or can angels say those words, who forgives other than Allaah? Who gives other than Allaah? Who answers other than Allaah?? So the nonsense tawil of his command or angels descending is rubbish...

And as for your metaphor, who among the sahabah understands it this way?? You can never provide.

I don't know why you people give yourselves unnecessary headache Allaah says:

ولا يحيطون بشيء من علمه الا بما شاء

And they cannot comprehend anything from his knowledge EXCEPT WHAT HE WILLS

So why don't you work with what Allaah has told us and leave off what he has hidden from us??

Allaah has hidden the knowledge of these things from us, why not stay where the salafs have stayed and be among those Allaah said: those who believe in the unseen?!

You can never fully comprehend Allaah, so stop doing what you were not ordered to do.

I bet the anger and rage in you never allow you to open the Sunni link we have posted. I only quoted the summary of your salaf and ulama verbally. Therefore all the words of aileko you've used above are 100% for your salaf and ulama

Endeavor to read the link. It's not meant for me but you.

AlBaqir:


# So, in short
وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ أَحَاطَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عِلْمًا

and that Allaah surrounds all things with(his)Knowledge."

That includes the 7th heaven and ar'sh in which your manhaj believe Allah resides or are those two not part of كل شيء - things?

I Wonder where you are driving at with this, but point of correction, the salafs didn't say Allaah resides in the 7th heaven, rather above the heavens and above his arsh! His arsh is above the heavens, he is above his arsh as this verse says:

The most merciful ascended above his arsh

So "the how" is known of our business, as imam maalik said: Ascension is understood, and "the how" is not fully comprehended, believing in it is compulsory, questioning about the how is bidah and I do not see you(i.e the man who asked about how Allaah is on his arsh) except as a person of bidah.


So in essence, Allaah said he surrounds all things with his knowledge, end of discussion how he does that is not of our business. All we know that he is separate from his creation and creation starts from his arsh!

# Now, when Allah uses هو and الله that is "He" and "Allah" in this ayah (and other ayah):

و هو الله في السماوات و في الأرض - He is Allah in the heavens and in earth ",

* Your manhaj says Allah's Essence (He or Allah) is actually in the heavens while His knowledge is with us and other things in earth. Here, Allah's Essence is separated from His attribute.

How can "He" and "Allah" signify "attribute" in the verse if you oppose us when we say that Allah's Essence and His attributes can never be separated?

Allaah isn't in the heaven but above the heavens! None of the salafs said Allaah is in the heavens! And if we say Allaah is with us through his knowledge how does that mean we've separated him from his attributes?? If you are in a distant place from me and I see you from a far,and I say "and I say I can see you" do my eyes have to leave me from here before you'll agree that I can actually see you....so what are you saying boda?

I bet the anger and rage in you never allow you to open the Sunni link we have posted. I only quoted the summary of your salaf and ulama verbally. Therefore all the words of aileko you've used above are 100% for your salaf and ulama

Endeavor to read the link. It's not meant for me but you.

I don't need to read it as I already know their useless tawil and the summary is what you've highlighted here, it doesn't go beyond that, and bi idhnillaahi it has been met with the proper check!

AlBaqir:



# Ogbeni, that is LITERAL MEANING. Not every literal meaning gives correct interpretations. On this thread, I have cited several examples if you care to reverse back.

If Yoruba say, "A nwo oju Olohun - We are looking at God's eye", that should never ever be interpreted literally. Rather, the interpretation is "we are expecting God's favor".

# Imagine the height of your hypocrisy once again:


#. You are very quick to be literal in إلى ربها ناظرة - looking at their Lord", why not going literal for و هو الله في السماوات و في الأرض - He is Allah IN the heavens and IN earth". Is في - IN" literally not meant "inside" something?

So the word في in Arabic always means "in" in the Arabic language ba? Go and study Arabic! How true is the words of one of the salafs who said;

"there is no heretic except that he is an ignorant of the Arabic language"

Abdelkabir, you can not call interpretation "rubbish" if it doesn't fit your narration. Sahaba simply didn't not argue or question so these things. I mean Allah's Hand, Face, His residence etc. They simply understood the Ayah as it is. There was no opposing debate unlike now.

Really, my position is, (amongst us muslims), those phrases should be understood as revealed just like sahaba did. But since we are faced with multiple challenges which sahaba did not, like debating Atheists, Christians and other non-Muslims, they tend to question those things. You as Muslim would need to interpret in harmony with Quran bcus Bible similarly have literal meanings which we criticized them for.

You can not tell them that sahaba understood like that and you want to "stop where they stopped". You defeat yourself on the podium like that. So you can not say it is rubbish to interpret Allah's Hands to mean Power or Supreme Authority because there are several other verses pointing to the fact that Allah's Hand signifies Sovereighty like Q48:10 etc

And I remember very well months and yrs ago you did tawil of several ayat. So there is nothing wrong with that interpretation so long as it is in harmony with Quran. Sahaba had no reason to interpret because there was no need for it at that time.

I heard interesting narration about Sayyidina Ali (karam Allahu wajhah), which shows that he was vast in tawil of many statements of the prophet (saw).

I don't have dalil for this yet but I will narrate it anyways. Whoever has the dalil could please post it. It is said that nabi(saw) said before he passed that no one should sit on his minbar after him

So during Abu Bakr regime he never sat on nabi's minbar. The same Umar and Uthman(may Allah be pleased with them) until Ali ascended caliphate. He sat and stood on nabi's minbar which was vacated for decades. Those sahaba who were aware of nabi's statement underlined above questioned Ali(ra) that he defiled the prophet.

He replied them that minbar that prophet Muhammad (saw) was talking about are his wives not prayer station as understood literally by many of them.


That nabi(saw) meant no one should inherit his wives after him not minbar at the masjid.

AlBaqir:
Sino, there is nothing in your so-called questions that has not been answered. Unfortunately it is you that is running far away and dodging question as per tawil and tafwid in respect to your belief.


As per this hadith which is only my concern:


Absolutely you are just posting without getting Shia believe as per Tawhid. Again for the last time, Shia do not separate Allah's attributes (siffat) from His Essence (Dhat). We believe both are one. It is your manhaj that believe His Essence resides in one place while His knowledge is in another place.

Read the hadith well please. It is crystal clear and doesn't support your believe. We've given you verses of the Quran where Allah says He is Everywhere and with everything. You are trying to rationalise "How" when you cannot even grasp what is His Essence or His attributes. He is beyond what you think or imagined about Him.


We've quote this ayah before:

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 3:
وَهُوَ اللَّهُ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَفِي الْأَرْضِ يَعْلَمُ سِرَّكُمْ وَجَهْرَكُمْ وَيَعْلَمُ مَا تَكْسِبُونَ

And He is Allah in the heavens and in the earth; He knows your secret (thoughts) and your open (words), and He knows what you earn."

The hadith you've quoted says:

"His being in the sky over the earth is just as He on the Throne. All things to Him are the same in the matters of His knowledge and power, domination and control".


The argument is never Shia's but yours who had separated Allah with His Essence in a place and His attributes in other places.

Bros, if you have answered my question, you wouldn't need to be trying too hard to rope my beliefs to epistle you are typing, and even breaking apart!

Let me help you with another narration from you guys!

Kulayni in “Kafi” 1/126-127, and authenticated by Majlese in “Mirat” 1/67

It is narrated from him (the narrator of the above Haddith) from a group of our people from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from Yaqub ibn yazid from ibn abu Umayr from ibn Udhaynah from Imam abu Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following: It is about the words of Allah “There is not a single place wherein any secret counsel can take place between any three people without God being the fourth, nor five people without His being the sixth. . .” (58:7). “He is One, the One only in His Own-self. He is different from His creatures and as such He has said about His Own-Self. He has control over all things through His presence, control and power. Nothing as small as an atom in the heavens or earth is absent from Him, not even things smaller or bigger. It is all through His control and knowledge not by His-self. It is because the places are limited by the four boundaries. If it would be by His-self it would limit Him.

How does the red above mean what you have written?! If you do not know, this is exactly the belief of the Ahlu Sunnah! So explain to me how that your belief that Allah (SWT) is everywhere again?!

For me not to cause more confusion for you,

And narrated al Sadooq(ra) in al Illal (Illul ul sharai) with sahih (authentic) sanad (chain of narration) from Abi Baseer from one of the 2 Imams(as) said: Don’t reject hadith which has come to you people through murj’i, qadari and kharji attributed to us, for verily you people don’t know for it is something from the truth AND (BY REJECTING IT) YOU WOULD LIE UPON ALLAH (WHO IS) BEYOND THE ARSH.

Oh! What did Allah (SWT) say?

"The Most Merciful [who is] above the Throne established." (20:5)

Please what is the tawil of the above verse according to the Imams, please bring your evidences. Thanks

AlBaqir:


@bold, but your manhaj has the audacity to do tawil of the ayah: "Allah is with them wherever they are" saying it is His knowledge and not His Essence because His Essence resides in Heaven

Or this ayah: "And He is Allah in the heavens and in the Earth". Yet your manhaj has the ball to say "No, only His Essence resides in Heaven and not on earth".

And you hate us doing tawil of a clear ayah (Q.75: 22~23). You can see the depth of hypocrisy and double standard


OUR INTERPRETATION

Surah Al-Qiyam, Verse 22 - 23:
وُجُوهٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ نَّاضِرَةٌ
(Some) faces on that day shall be bright,

إِلَىٰ رَبِّهَا نَاظِرَةٌ
Looking to their Lord."


* Abu Huraira (alongside few other sahabah) narrated that Prophet allegedly says:

فَإِنَّكُمْ سَتَرَوْنَ رَبَّكُمْ كَمَا تَرَوْنَ الْقَمَرَ لَيْلَةَ الْبَدْرِ لاَ تُضَامُّونَ فِي رُؤْيَتِهِ
So verily, you (believers) shall see your Lord as you see the moon on the night of a full moon, you shall not crowd one another to see Him."

Sahih Tirmidhi; English reference : Vol. 4, Book 12, Hadith 2554; Arabic reference : Book 38, Hadith 2752; https://sunnah.com/urn/678600


With this verse influenced by the hadith, Salafi ideology maintained that the believers on the day of judgment shall be able to see Allah.

We say such ideology is not only wrong but also blasphemous. The interpretation of these verses is that those with brighten faces will be "looking to their Lord" joyfully anticipating the reward of their righteous deeds.


# The next two verses prove our interpretations.

 Surah Al-Qiyama, Verse 24 - 25:

وَوُجُوهٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ بَاسِرَةٌ
And (other) faces on that day shall be gloomy,

تَظُنُّ أَن يُفْعَلَ بِهَا فَاقِرَةٌ

Expecting that there will be done to them [something] backbreaking."

Therefore, it is about expectations (looking forward to see rewards) not "seeing or looking at God".

I have already given you an appropriate response to your confusion, while you still feign ignorance of what we stand for as regards the interpretation of the verses you bring forth, I simply request that you provide evidences from your Imams! And up till now, you haven't! I will help you do the needful!

Shia shaykh al-Barqi narrated in his “al-Mahasin” (p 60), and shaykh Azizullah al-Utardi quoted from him in “Musnad ar-Rida” (1/95):

From Abul Hasan al-Rida (alaihi salam): Who wants to look at Allah without obstacle and Allah looks at him without obstacle, let him to befriend with family of Muhammad and be (far) away from their enemies, and follow Imam of believers from amongst them, (and if he would do that) in the doomsday[b] Allah would look at him without obstacle and he would look at Allah without obstacle.[/b]

Below you would see some quotes from one of the most authentic shia books “Sahifa sajadiya al-kamila”. That’s a book of prays that attributed to imam Ali ibn Hussain ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib[4th Shia Imam) (may Allah be pleased with all of them).

In the chapter “The Whispered Prayer of the Lovers ” we can read

My God, place us with him whom Thou hast chosen for Thy nearness and Thy friendship, purified through Thy affection and Thy love, given yearning for the meeting with Thee, made pleased with Thy decree, granted gazing upon Thy face, shown the favour of Thy good pleasure, given refuge from separation from Thee and Thy loathing, settled in a sure sitting place in Thy neighbourhood, singled out for true knowledge of Thee, made worthy for worship of Thee, whose heart Thou hast captivated with Thy will, whom Thou hast picked for contemplating Thee, whose look Thou hast made empty for Thee, whose breast Thou hast freed for Thy love, whom Thou hast made desirous of what is with Thee, inspired with Thy remembrance, allotted thanksgiving to Thee, occupied with obeying Thee, turned into one of Thy righteous creatures, chosen for whispered prayer to Thee, and from whom Thou hast cut off all things which cut him off from Thee!

Shia book, Sahifa Sajjadiya, In chapter “The Whispered Prayer of those asking for Mediation” you can read

My God, I have no mediation with Thee but the tender acts of Thy clemency, nor any way to come to Thee but the gentle favours of Thy mercy and the intercession of Thy Prophet, the prophet of mercy, who rescued the community from confusion. Make these two my tie to attaining Thy forgiveness and let them take me to triumph through Thy good pleasure! My hope has dismounted in the sacred precinct of Thy generosity, my craving has alighted in the courtyard of Thy munificence. So actualize my expectation from Thee, seal my works with good, and place me among Thy selected friends, those whom Thou hast set down in the midst of Thy Garden, and settled in the abode of Thy honour, whose eyes Thou hast gladdened by gazing upon Thee on the day of meeting Thee, and whom Thou hast made heirs to the sure stations in Thy neighbourhood!

Sahi book Sahifa Sajjadiya, in chapter “The Whispered Prayer of the Abstainers” you can read

My God, induce us to renounce it and keep us safe from it by Thy giving success and Thy preservation from sin. Strip from us the robes of opposing Thee, attend to our affairs through Thy good sufficiency, amplify our increase from the boundless plenty of Thy mercy, be liberal in our gifts from the overflow of Thy grants, plant in our hearts the trees of Thy love, complete for us the lights of Thy knowledge, give us to taste the sweetness of Thy pardon and the pleasure of Thy forgiveness, gladden our eyes on the day of meeting Thee with the vision of Thee, dislodge the love of this world from our spirits, just as Thou hast done for the righteous, Thy selected friends, and for the pious, those whom Thou hast singled out! O Most Merciful of the merciful, O Most Generous of the most generous!

So are you telling me that the Imams failed to explain these eyes seeing their Lord?! Why not bring evidences from the Imams that intepreted the ayah as you have done?! You should know that I would rather accept what the Imam says than what you say! From what I have presented so far, there is actually no difference between what the Imams believe and what Ahlu Sunnah believe!

AlBaqir:


# You can see the tawil of your scholars and salafs but you hate ours doing their's.


In short, according to your manhaj in line with the opinion of your salaf and ulama above, you will see God in Qiyamat but not in an "encompassing" manner; meaning you can only see "part" of Allah and not His whole. No wonder your hadith say:

1. You will see God like you see the full moon. of course you can only see part of the moon and not the whole moon

2. Abu Huraira alleging you will recognize Allah by a sign on His leg.


The height of error of this assumption is that you have defined Allah to be a compound (murakab) consisting of various parts. Obviously anything with this description has size and dimension and will occupy a space. No wonder you believe He resides in the 7th heaven and absent in others except He moves from one heaven to the other at a particular period of time.

Kindly tell me how that is not tashbih and tajsim

You are well known for being imaginative and fiction happens to be your hubby! In your quest to being knowledgeable, you have equally fault Allah (SWT) using those attributes for Himself! The QUr'an was revealed in Arabic, the Prophet (SAW) was an Arab, are you meaning to say that Allah (SWT) using hand while you are interpreting it as power ought to have been appropriate?!

Kafi by Kulayni. vol 1, p 209:

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from al-Husayn ibn Said from Fudala ibn Ayyub from abu a1-Maghra from Muhammad ibn Salim from Aban ibn Taghlib from abu Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following: “The Messenger of Allah has said, Whoever would want to live like my living, die like I will die and enter the garden of Eden that my Lord has planted with His own hands, he must love (acknowledge the Divine authority of) Ali (a.s.) ibn abu Talib. He must love (acknowledge the Divine authority of his successor) those who love him, be the enemy of his enemies and submit in obedience to his successors after him because they are of my family and my flesh and blood. Allah has given them my understanding and knowledge. I appeal to Allah and complain to Him about the case of my peoples dealings, their denying the virtue and excellence of the Imams from my family. I complain to Allah for their disregard of my relation with them. By Allah, they will murder my son (al-Husayn (a.s.). May Allah deprive them of my intercession.

Again show me where the Imam said it is not hands but power?! Is there no Arabic word for power?! Do humans not have power too?! Now I will refer you back to the narration about affirming without tashbih. Does affirming correlate with doing tawil?! Please provide evidences from the Imams and stop all these merry-go-round!

AbdelKabir:


I Wonder where you are driving at with this, but point of correction, the salafs didn't say Allaah resides in the 7th heaven, rather above the heavens and above his arsh! His arsh is above the heavens, he is above his arsh as this verse says:

The most merciful ascended above his arsh

So "the how" is known of our business, as imam maalik said: Ascension is understood, and "the how" is not fully comprehended, believing in it is compulsory, questioning about the how is bidah and I do not see you(i.e the man who asked about how Allaah is on his arsh) except as a person of bidah.


So in essence, Allaah said he surrounds all things with his knowledge, end of discussion how he does that is not of our business. All we know that he is separate from his creation and creation starts from his arsh!

Allaah isn't in the heaven but above the heavens! None of the salafs said Allaah is in the heavens!

!

AbdelKabir:


So the word في in Arabic always means "in" in the Arabic language ba? Go and study Arabic! How true is the words of one of the salafs who said;

"there is no heretic except that he is an ignorant of the Arabic language"

# First, your manhaj ONLY approved of LITERAL meaning of the Quran and hadith. Trying to give other meaning to the literal meaning of "fi" (in)" is deviating from your system of literalism. In fact, Sheik ibn baz supported by ibn uthaymeen critically maintained Quran should be interpreted literally always and that there is NO METAPHOR in the Quran and hadith. We can quote them word for word if you ask. Obviously both of them are very wrong.


# Second, you have interpreted "fi" to "above" therefore you are of the opinion Allah is "above" the heavens and the earth. Interestingly, your manhaj rejected the idea of "above" in the meaning of "status"; therefore, you are left with one meaning, " Allah is above the heavens and earth while the heavens and the earth are below Him".

 This crooked submission is a fraud and erroneous in the light of this verse:

 Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 3:
هُوَ الْأَوَّلُ وَالْآخِرُ وَالظَّاهِرُ وَالْبَاطِنُ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

He is the First and the Last and the Outward and the Inward, and He is Cognizant of all things."

The holy Prophet was reported to have interpreted "Az-Zahir - The Outward" and "al-Batin - The Inward" thus:

"You are az-Zahir, for there is nothing ABOVE You, and YOU ARE AL-BATIN, FOR THERE IS NOTHING BELOW YOU"
 https://www.sunnah.com/tirmidhi/48/112

Therefore this destroyed your crooked interpretation of "fi" to have meant "above".


# Third, how did other Ahlu Sunnah who believed there are METAPHORS in the Quran interpreted "fi" in the ayah (an'am: 3)?

1. Imam an-Nawawi in his sharh sahih Muslim on the hadith of jariyyah which talks about "God is IN the heaven", believe and interpreted this to be A METAPHOR.

2. Qurtubi in his Tafsir gave a metaphoric meaning of the ayah 3 of sura an'am:

http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?idfrom=1258&idto=1258&bk_no=48&ID=681

3. Ibn Kathir also gave a "metaphoric meaning" of the ayah thus:

"And He is Allah in the heavens and the earth, He knows what you conceal and what you reveal, and He knows what you earn.) Meaning, it is He Who is called Allah, throughout the heavens and the earth, that is, it is He who is worshipped, singled out, whose divinity is believed in by the inhabitants of the heavens and the earth."
 http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1023&Itemid=61


Therefore, if you are ashamed to interpret "fi" LITERALLY as "IN", why did you interpret "ila rabiha nadhira - looking at their Lord" LITERALLY? Our position is simple and that is both ayah are not literal but metaphors

AbdelKabir:


And if we say Allaah is with us through his knowledge how does that mean we've separated him from his attributes?? If you are in a distant place from me and I see you from a far,and I say "and I say I can see you" do my eyes have to leave me from here before you'll agree that I can actually see you....so what are you saying boda?

Hehe! Salafi kabiru wanna go philosophical and logical. Those are not salafi portions But seriously are you making such example for Allah: meaning He seats in the heavens or the chair above heavens and watching us on earth from such distance?

Anyway, your logical deduction is only limited to seeing from far distance. Knowledge of a thing is far more than seeing. However, here we talk about Allah's knowledge and the analogy you could bring is "seeing from afar". That's ridiculous.

What is Allah's knowledge in your manhaj?

Who are those people having dialogue with kufar..

Leave him to his pure nonsense manhaj

sino:

Again show me where the Imam said it is not hands but power?! Is there no Arabic word for power?! Do humans not have power too?! Now I will refer you back to the narration about affirming without tashbih. Does affirming correlate with doing tawil?! Please provide evidences from the Imams and stop all these merry-go-round!

Sino, there are lots of challenges on this thread we've put before you and you continue dribbling around them sweeping them under the carpet. Brother, am not ready for cycle arguments.


# Again, which one do you subscribe? Literalism or metaphoric meaning? State your position and stop chasing shadows in our case.

# TWO CONTRADICTORY CHALLENGES BEFORE YOU


1. Ibn baz and uthaymeen among other supported LITERAL meaning of hands, face etc

Ibn Uthaymeen writes:

"...An example of that (belief in literalism/tafwid) is His statement: [Rather both His hands are outstretched; He dispenses just as He wishes](5:64). The Literal meaning of the verse is that God has two LITERAL hands. Therefore, this must be affirmed for Him."

Source: Muhammad ibn Salih al-Uthaymeen, Majmu Fatawa wa Rasail, ed. By Fahd ibn Nasir ibn Ibrahim al-Sulayman, 29 vols (Riyadh; Dar al-Watan, 1413 - 1431 AH), V (1414 AH), p. 11-12



2. The like of Tabari, Fakhr din Razi, An-Nawawi, and Ibn Kathir and Qur'tubi subscribes to METAPHOR.

Surah Maidah verse 64 says:

"The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. ..."

Imam
Imam Ibn Kathir writes in his Tafsir:

'Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas commented on Allah's statement,

{The Jews say, "Allah's Hand is tied up."} " They do not mean that Allah's Hand is literally tied up. Rather, they mean that He is a miser and does not spend from what He has. Allah is far holier than what they attribute to Him.'' Similar was reported from Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Qatadah, As-Suddi and Ad-Dahhak.
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=759&Itemid=60


Empiree please note this line in the course of further discussion. You might be the witness.

AlBaqir:



Sino, there are lots of challenges on this thread we've put before you and you continue dribbling around them sweeping them under the carpet. Brother, am not ready for cycle arguments.


# Again, which one do you subscribe? Literalism or metaphoric meaning? State your position and stop chasing shadows in our case.

# TWO CONTRADICTORY CHALLENGES BEFORE YOU


1. Ibn baz and uthaymeen among other supported LITERAL meaning of hands, face etc

Ibn Uthaymeen writes:

"...An example of that (belief in literalism/tafwid) is His statement: [Rather both His hands are outstretched; He dispenses just as He wishes](5:64). The Literal meaning of the verse is that God has two LITERAL hands. Therefore, this must be affirmed for Him."

Source: Muhammad ibn Salih al-Uthaymeen, Majmu Fatawa wa Rasail, ed. By Fahd ibn Nasir ibn Ibrahim al-Sulayman, 29 vols (Riyadh; Dar al-Watan, 1413 - 1431 AH), V (1414 AH), p. 11-12



2. The like of Tabari, Fakhr din Razi, An-Nawawi, and Ibn Kathir and Qur'tubi subscribes to METAPHOR.

Surah Maidah verse 64 says:

"The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. ..."

Imam
Imam Ibn Kathir writes in his Tafsir:

'Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas commented on Allah's statement,

{The Jews say, "Allah's Hand is tied up."} " They do not mean that Allah's Hand is literally tied up. Rather, they mean that He is a miser and does not spend from what He has. Allah is far holier than what they attribute to Him.'' Similar was reported from Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Qatadah, As-Suddi and Ad-Dahhak.
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=759&Itemid=60


Empir.ee please note this line in the course of further discussion. You might be the witness.

I believe these are some of the verses I was trying to reference to abdelkabir earlier. Depending on how Qur'an uses the statements, in many cases it is metaphoric.

I once cited example before of fmr. Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak once said [I]"power of Egypt is in my hands"[/i]. I asked back then if he was referring to his physical hands in this context?. Far as I am concerned he wasn't. He was referring to his sovereignty.

Yad -hand has meanings beyond physical hand. Just like عيون (eyes) has many meanings as much as 200 as some scholars affirmed. Ocean is also called "عيون" oju

I am sorry to say that 8yrs ago when I shared salafi manhaj, some brothers who as were Salafis but distanced themselves from "Saudi Salafis" as they used to call them, accused them off attributing physical limbs to Allah. I remembered the guy said "no hands, no legs" of Allah. Just that the brothers were extremists but now changed.

Again, this argument is irrelevant. We can always read and believe the ayat as is with understanding that it is not physically human attributes. Allah used these words for our comprehension purposes. If He was to reveal Quran in His Best True Form, we can not understand anything.

No muslim has problem with the texts as used in the Qur'an but tawil must be welcomed when necessary. It is not rubbish

Empiree:
I believe these are some of the verses I was trying to reference to abdelkabir earlier. Depending on how Qur'an uses the statements, in many cases it is metaphoric.

I once cited example before of fmr. Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak once said [I]"power of Egypt is in my hands"[/i]. I asked back then if he was referring to his physical hands in this context?. Far as I am concerned he wasn't. He was referring to his sovereignty.

Yad -hand has meanings beyond physical hand. Just like عيون (eyes) has many meanings as much as 200 as some scholars affirmed. Ocean is also called "عيون" oju

# In fact, the question is why did we have clear and ambiguous verses in the Quran (Q.3:7) if every ayah should and must be understood and interpret literally as salafi wants us to accept?

# Metaphor is in every language. Using metaphorical statements usually brings out the rich and beauty of a language.

Yoruba will say, "an wo oju olohun", "ara ile re háwó OR ó lawó". All these are metaphors that can never be understood or interpreted literally.

Arabic language was not as rich as when Quran was revealed. In fact Quran thought the Arabs more in their literature. And somebody now saying there are no metaphors in the Quran and every is literal But when it comes to the ayah "Allah is IN the heavens" or "Allah is WITH everything", they quickly jump to do tawil (Interpretation) living their stubborn idea of literalism. But they are stubborn to say Allah has hands, face, chin, leg because He said He has and we must leave it like that without interpretation. Why don't they leave Allah is everywhere and with everything as it is? Why do they have to interpret that one to mean His knowledge?

Empiree:

Again, this argument is irrelevant. We can always read and believe the ayat as is with understanding that it is not physically human attributes. Allah used these words for our comprehension purposes. If He was to reveal Quran in His Best True Form, we can not understand anything.

No muslim has problem with the texts as used in the Qur'an but tawil must be welcomed when necessary. It is not rubbish

# Only the modern day Salafi (especially ) following the step of a Sunni mainstream widely condemned Ibn Taymiyyah, believe in literalism throughout.

You could see the exposition we have presented: some Sunni ulama believe those attributes (like hands) are metaphors and not literal.

AlBaqir:


# In fact, the question is why did we have clear and ambiguous verses in the Quran (Q.3:7) if every ayah should and must be understood and interpret literally as salafi wants us to accept?

their problem

# Metaphor is in every language. Using metaphorical statements usually brings out the rich and beauty of a language.

That's it.

Yoruba will say, "an wo oju olohun", "ara ile re háwó OR ó lawó". All these are metaphors that can never be understood or interpreted literally.

true

Arabic language was not as rich as when Quran was revealed. In fact Quran thought the Arabs more in their literature. And somebody now saying there are no metaphors in the Quran and every is literal But when it comes to the ayah "Allah is IN the heavens" or "Allah is WITH everything", they quickly jump to do tawil (Interpretation) living their stubborn idea of literalism. But they are stubborn to say Allah has hands, face, chin, leg because He said He has and we must leave it like that without interpretation. Why don't they leave Allah is everywhere and with everything as it is? Why do they have to interpret that one to mean His knowledge?

their problem. This is why they arrived at "there is nothing hidden in the Qur'an". That's, there is no batn. They kinda materialistic.

You could see the exposition we have presented: some Sunni ulama believe those attributes (like hands) are metaphors and not literal.

I'm just wondering why they are having hard time understanding this simple arithmetics. I have no problem with it at all.

AlBaqir:



Sino, there are lots of challenges on this thread we've put before you and you continue dribbling around them sweeping them under the carpet. Brother, am not ready for cycle arguments.


# Again, which one do you subscribe? Literalism or metaphoric meaning? State your position and stop chasing shadows in our case.

Bros, my stand is that which your Imam had explained, which I have also corroborated with other narrations all from the Imams!

I asked a simple question, provide evidence from the Imams that you should do this interpretation of Allah's attributes metaphorically as you do, and I'm yet to see such! You keep bringing unnecessary arguments! The narrations I have brought so far has same information as those found in the sunni narrations, and i am yet to see the Imams deny these attributes or explain them any differently as the sunnis, the reason I am particular for you to bring evidences from the Imams.

Again, if you do not have proofs from the Imams, then you are not following the Imams! No matter the epistle you want to write, if you cannot provide the evidences that I seek, then you should check yourself and your claim to be a follower of the ahl-l-bayt!