One of the promised wonders of the end-time is the presence/ministry of the two witnesses. These two are to have a great ministry that confronts the anti-Christ.
The text about them can be found in revelation 11.

This thread intends to discuss the deductions from revelation 11. There have been several interpretations of the text about the witnesses.

1. Should the text be taken literally or symbolically? or does it contain an element of both?
2. Are the witnesses humans? Are they Elijah and Moses / Elijah and Enoch/ Moses and Enoch? Are they two common Christians groomed and fed with power by God? are the witnesses symbolic of the church and Israel? are the witnesses Angels/Cherubs incarnated as witnesses? Are they the old and new testaments as some choose to believe?
3. is their ministry pre-tribulation or post tribulation?


. . . . .please avoid one-line responses. , . .they make no sense.

Do you believe in reincarnation?

And if you will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come. -- Matthew11:14 The Evidence Bible

New Age preachers always use this verse to justify their claim of reincarnation but when we read the Bible paying attention to details we will see that Elijah wasn't reincarnated as John the Baptist but that John merely came in the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:17) for it is appointed unto man once to die (Heb.9:27). When John the Baptists was asked whether he was Elijah he said that he was not the prophet and even the people did not recieve him as Elijah. John the Baptist was the first martyr since the beginning of Jesus' ministry after which Jesus said that "Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things" (Matt.17:11).

This means Elijah is still to come and restore all things as one of the witnesses as written in Revelation 11:3-6. The other witness is up for the jury to decide but as for me I will say it is Enoch since I don't believe that he has died yet before he was transported to heaven where he has been since.

Deep Sight:

Do you believe in reincarnation?

There is no biblical basis for such belief. . .as such Nope. However I do concede that there is nothing impossible with God.

OLAADEGBU:


And if you will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come. -- Matthew11:14 The Evidence Bible

New Age preachers always use this verse to justify their claim of reincarnation  but when we read the Bible paying attention to details we will see that Elijah wasn't reincarnated as John the Baptist but that John merely came in the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:17) for it is appointed unto man once to die (Heb.9:27).  When John the Baptists was asked whether he was Elijah he said that he was not the prophet and even the people did not recieve him as Elijah.  John the Baptist was the first martyr since the beginning of Jesus' ministry after which Jesus said that "Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things" (Matt.17:11).

This means Elijah is still to come and restore all things as one of the witnesses as written in Revelation 11:3-6. 

The other witness is up for the jury to decide but as for me I will say it is Enoch

since I don't believe that he has died yet before he was transported to heaven where he has been since.

@OLAADEGBU

Rather Elijah & Moses?

- representing the prophets and the law?

Deu 34:5-6 KJV:


⁵So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

⁶And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

Mark 9:4 KJV:


And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

John the Baptist was said to have appeared in the Spirit and Power of Elijah. The true return of Elijah is in the future and will precede the return of our Lord. John the baptist himself said he was not Elijah in person(Jn 1:21). Jesus made this clear when he said, 'Elijah indeed cometh and shall restore all things.' It is evident that this part of prophecy is not ye realised. It will be accomplished before the great day of the Lord, according to Malachi 4:5,6.
We believe that Elijah will have a special ministry in the conversion of Israel at that time, which will mark the beginning of the 'restoration of all things'(Acts 3:19-21; Rom 11:12,15).
We also believe that Elijah and Enoch are the two witnesses of Rev 11:1-12, whose task will be to prophesy with power in Jerusalem (the Holy city, where their Lord had been crucified, cerses 2,, during the great tribulation. Reason being that these were the only men who although sinners, did not go through death. They will be kept for that special ministry until the end of time, at the end of which they will submit to death(verse 9).

Another school of thought teaches that one of them would be John. And claims that
1.since there's no record of john's death.
2. Book of revelation prophesied that John would minister again, even after he had been banished to Patmos .

Revelation 10:11
11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

3.Jesus had said if he wants he would keep John alive till his second coming.

John 21:20-23
20 Peter turned around and saw the disciple Jesus loved following, the one who had leaned around at supper that time to ask Jesus,"Master, which of us will betray you?"21 Peter asked Jesus,"What about him, Lord? What sort of death will he die?"
22 Jesus replied,"If I want him to live until I return, what is that to you? You follow me."
23 So the rumor spread among the brotherhood that that disciple wouldn't die! But that isn't what Jesus said at all! He only said,"If I want him to live until I come, what is that to you?"

noetic16:

There is no biblical basis for such belief. . .as such Nope. However I do concede that there is nothing impossible with God.

So why then were you wondering if the two witnesses would be moses and enoch?

Are they to fly down from heaven on chariots of fire or be reincarnated?

Theres nothing like re incanation in the bible. Its neither elijah, moses or enoch. They may be moulded or fashioned in the styles of the 3 mentioned above. What if they would be angels?

In my own opinion, i think Olaadegbu has it right. What God promised was not the reincarnation of both Moses and Elijah but the return of the spirit that was upon them on two prominent men of God at the end of time.

As regards whether the two witnesses are Elijah with Moses or Enoch . . . i think verse 6 makes it clear it is refering to Elijah (shut heaven that it would not rain) and Moses (turned rivers into blood).

Malachi 4:5-6
"See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers;

Matthew 11: 11-15
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 17: 1-11
After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid." When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.

As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"

Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."
Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

Matthew and John, eyewitness accounts. Mark/Luke: likely not eyewitnesses but compiled hearsay. Some teachings were removed from the bible, esp in the gospel of John. Is it possible Jesus didn't know what He was talking about as regards John the Baptist, but other men and modern bible readers know better than He? Isn't it possible He knew things John the Baptist did not? If someone were coming back, it's the person's spirit (separated from the flesh at death) that is returned to a new body, not the flesh, which is long dead and buried. Like someone said, anything's possible with God. We don't get to set the limits on what He can or can not do.

e36991:


@OLAADEGBU

Rather Elijah & Moses?

- representing the prophets and the law?

Came across this video that seemingly dropped a proverbial fly into the ointment

Original text apparently didnt make any mention of "men"

The men was an insertion during commentary or whilst translating

Look out for 0:56; 1:15; 1:17; 1:38; 1:44 minutes marks and other when watching

PS: ^{Dont forget to close the annoying "Ads by Google" by clicking on X at the bottom right corner when viewing}

  [flash=480,385]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmtYF0y29xI&hl[/flash]

Deep Sight:

So why then were you wondering if the two witnesses would be moses and enoch?

Are they to fly down from heaven on chariots of fire or be reincarnated?

I was not wondering. . . .I only threw it up for discourse. It cannot be Elijah moses or Enoch . . .there is no basis for such.

toba:

Theres nothing like re incanation in the bible. Its neither elijah, moses or enoch. They may be moulded or fashioned in the styles of the 3 mentioned above. What if they would be angels?

I am more inclined to believe that they are/would be angels. . . cos the scriptures refers to them as two lampstands and two olives that stands in the presence of God. this would correspond to the cherubums erected in the sides of the ark of covenant by moses.

The interesting part is their ministry, it would definitely be in contrast to present day christianity.

davidylan:

In my own opinion, i think Olaadegbu has it right. What God promised was not the reincarnation of both Moses and Elijah but the return of the spirit that was upon them on two prominent men of God at the end of time.

This is true. The question is it their individual spirit or the "prophetic" spirits? Like u said though its their prophetic spirits. . as such there is no basis for anyone to suggest their reincarnation.

As regards whether the two witnesses are Elijah with Moses or Enoch . . . i think verse 6 makes it clear it is refering to Elijah (shut heaven that it would not rain) and Moses (turned rivers into blood).

Nah bro, While verse 6 tells of their works, it does not point to Elijah's reincarnation. I will take Jesus word for it that John the baptist was Elijah.

noetic16:

This is true. The question is it their individual spirit or the "prophetic" spirits? Like u said though its their prophetic spirits. . as such there is no basis for anyone to suggest their reincarnation.

of course here i mean their prophetic spirits.

noetic16:

Nah bro, While verse 6 tells of their works, it does not point to Elijah's reincarnation. I will take Jesus word for it that John the baptist was Elijah.

Neither do i think Elijah or Moses will reincarnate at the end of time. The bible says John the Baptist was Elijah not because he was Elijah come back in the flesh but he was another who carried the spirit that was on Elijah just the same way Elisha did. Elisha was a simple servant to Elijah until he got Elijah's mantle. I believe God will raise someone else at the end of time who will bear Elijah's anointing. Him God will use to warn us of His impending coming the same way john the Baptist was used to warn of the period of Christ on earth.

noetic16:

There is no biblical basis for such belief. . .as such Nope. However I do concede that there is nothing impossible with God.

I am surprised at this. I read a post where you said you have seen reincarnation – not your exact words but something like that. Now you reject it just because you can't find it in the Bible?

MyJoe:

I am surprised at this. I read a post where you said you have seen reincarnation – not your exact words but something like that. Now you reject it just because you can't find it in the Bible?

While I cant recollect the post in question or ever "seeing" reincarnation. . . I personally do not subscribe to reincarnation. It is appointed unto men to die once and after which judgement.

But I do however believe that heavenly persons take human forms to do the works of God. . .Like God himself did 2000 years ago. Angels might also take human form to perform the work of God. . .but there is no biblical basis to believe that humans reincarnate.

Yeah, maybe no biblical basis. But how about other bases, or does the Bible contain everything? If I find that post I will paste it.

Alive in Heaven

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)

This remarkable event--the translation of Elijah alive into heaven, without dying--was altogether miraculous, but it really happened! Among other things, it assures us that heaven is a real place in this created universe, for Elijah is still there in his physical body, still alive, to this very day.

The prophet Enoch, who had also served God in a time of deep apostasy, had likewise been taken into heaven without dying (that is, into the "third heaven," beyond the starry heaven, where God's throne is), as recorded in Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5. Enoch's prophecies, addressed to the entire world of mankind, were given at approximately the midpoint of the period from Adam to Abraham, whereas those of Elijah, addressed only to Israel, were given at essentially the midpoint of the time from Abraham to Christ. Both were caught up alive into heaven before their ministries were finished. It is possible that they will return again to earth as God's "two witnesses" who will prophesy to both Jews and Gentiles in the last days (note Malachi 4:5-6; Revelation 11:3-12), then finally to be slain and resurrected.

In any case, there will also be one entire generation of believers who will--like Enoch and Elijah--be caught up alive into heaven. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven . . . and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

This could very well be our generation! And "when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2). HMM

Interesting but item not fully treated

DID YOU GUYS NOT READ WHERE Jude 1:9

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

What was the arcangel doing with the body of moses? Most likely that body was taken to heaven where it is kept along with the body of Enoch so they shall both return as witnesses - with the original body they had before.

There is something special about the body that we still dont know yet. I might be wrong in my assumption, let us try another angel

Transfiguration of Jesus: “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah” (Luke 9:33).
This meant they clearly saw Elijah and Moses in body - most likely - their original bodies.

So now, i don confuse for here, abeg make i go wacc small

1. They are believers of because Rev.11 says they are first witness before GOD will give them power.
2. They are prophets because they will prophesy
3. They will be ordinary for more years than during the years of their 3 1/2 years minitry and have to fulfill righteousness just like Jesus waited till 30yrs before he started his main ministry.
4. They will minister in the spirit/ way of Elijah and moses based on the type of signs and wonders that they will perform.
5.They will minister in the first 3 1/2years of the tribulation because Jesus did not just come back on earth after their ministry, and the beast was revealed on earth.
6. They were the only approved HolyGhost filled ministers on earth, because the Bilble states that they are the two lampstand or olive tress that stand before the GOD of the earth, thereby are humans.
7. They will have a very strong Angelic ministry because there is no book as angelic-activity full as revelation.
8. They are going to preach a pure gospel, thereby been hated by the people of the earth, including the pharisees of their time.
9. They are going to have manifestation in glimpse of their ministry, because GOD refine His gifts upon His servants.
10.They will be able to interpret signs of the end-time better because this is the center of their ministry.

I am so convinced that they are already here on earth.

According to the visions of the blessed Ann catherine emerich,the two witnesses were revealed as enoch and elijah who were to experience their long awaited deaths but the issue of reincarnation does not arise since these men are not yet dead.They will come back as they had always been

chukwudi44: According to the visions of the blessed Ann catherine emerich,the two witnesses were revealed as enoch and elijah who were to experience their long awaited deaths but the issue of reincarnation does not arise since these men are not yet dead.They will come back as they had always been

Sir, do you have biblical backings to this claim ?

sadeiyare: 1. They are believers of because Rev.11 says they are first witness before GOD will give them power.
2. They are prophets because they will prophesy
3. They will be ordinary for more years than during the years of their 3 1/2 years minitry and have to fulfill righteousness just like Jesus waited till 30yrs before he started his main ministry.
4. They will minister in the spirit/ way of Elijah and moses based on the type of signs and wonders that they will perform.
5.They will minister in the first 3 1/2years of the tribulation because Jesus did not just come back on earth after their ministry, and the beast was revealed on earth.
6. They were the only approved HolyGhost filled ministers on earth, because the Bilble states that they are the two lampstand or olive tress that stand before the GOD of the earth, thereby are humans.
7. They will have a very strong Angelic ministry because there is no book as angelic-activity full as revelation.
8. They are going to preach a pure gospel, thereby been hated by the people of the earth, including the pharisees of their time.
9. They are going to have manifestation in glimpse of their ministry, because GOD refine His gifts upon His servants.
10.They will be able to interpret signs of the end-time better because this is the center of their ministry.

I am so convinced that they are already here on earth.

Seconded!