Favor99:
Tao11
No where here is it mentioned that the oba sold his people out and gave the British his artwork in exchange. Your a liar. Your Yoruba kings were selling your own into slavery. One person on this thread praised Oba that he did no such thing, and that’s how you snapped and this whole thing started. Anyway here are facts.

You are a very cunning unrepentant liar. And I am exposing you fully in a bit.

On Slave trade: It is quite ironic that what you're trying to defend is actually evidence against you.

You are trying to defend the idea that there was a point in time in Benin's history when there was a no slave trade policy. Yet you are at the same time challenging me to provide evidence for slave trade in Benin kingdom. Can't you see my evidence very clearly in the very idea you're trying to defend?


That they stopped it (it's actually not a stop, it is in fact a pause) at some point shows clearly that there was slave trade in Benin kingdom. They started around the late 15th century, paused for some time around the 16th century (and traded exclusively in other times such as pepper, ivory, palm oil, etc.) and then continued in the 17th century.



And you almost killed me with laughter when you attached details of the "Benin Massacre and Expedition of 1897" as 'facts' showing that Benin kingdom didn't engage in slave trade.


Hello, The events of 1897 are post Atlantic Slave Trade events. By 1897, slave trade in Africa has already been generally abolished, so how can the events after slave trade be evidence that Benin kingdom didn't participate in slave trade? Good try, but try again! They actually participated.


On the Benin bronze artifacts:
I think you need to visit an ophthalmologist, because no where did I mention that the Oba of Benin exchanged the Benin bronze artifacts for money or anything; instead I have repeatedly and consistently stated that the Benin bronze artifacts were looted by the Europeans after their reinforcement which was aimed at avenging the 8 out of 10 men of the Phillip's expedition killed by the Binis.


What I stated instead (which you are bent on twisting and spinning) is that the Oba (after spending six months in the forest to evade his execution) came out begging and willing to offer up the kingdom's wealth [which consists of barrels of oil (worth £183, 000 today) and ivory tusks (worth about £ 276, 000, 000 today)]. And I noted that the offer was too late because he was still expelled from his kingdom.


Instead of twisting what I said, I think the better options are that you either simply keep shut (just like your kinsman, prolog2) or you bring forward your evidence to the contrary.



Yes the Yorubas (just like the Binis and others) traded in slaves, and going by today's standards, that was awful. But do I think it's fair and objective to judge them by today's standard (i.e. by the standards of about 400 years later)? of course No. That was simply quite normal then, we have only evolved into a more civil and humanitarian society nowadays to realize how awful those things are.


For instance, in the days of yore, societies are by default at war with each other, and real steps (such as signing some bilateral agreements, etc.) have to be taken by two societies for them not to attack each other. It's the other way round nowadays because we have evolved differently. Today, societies are by default at peace with each other, and real steps (such as provocation, intimidation, etc. from at least one end) have to be taken for two societies to attack each other.

It is about the same way it will be unfair and not objective today to judge the men of the days of yore for marrying under-18 ladies. These are just our modern standards which are even arguably largely subjective.


So, I won't judge our ancestors (both Yoruba or Benin) as wrong for have traded in slaves in those days.



Moreover, I am still waiting for you and prolog2 to dispute the fact that the Yorubas were the teachers and masters of the Binis as regards the art, craft, skill, science, technology, and technique of metal casting.


Did you hear the part of that B.M. documentary where the expert mentioned in clear terms that the kings of Benin paid homage to Ile-Ife?


Did you hear where it was clearly mentioned that a bronze cast figure of an Oni of Ife was among the bronze castings found in the palace of the Oba of Benin centuries ago?


Did you hear where it was clearly mentioned that the Benin bronze castings are descendants of the older Ife bronze castings?


Also, I didn't hear any of you criticize the present Oba of Benin for paying homage at "Orun Oba 'Do" shrine in Ile-Ife. I posted a video [from an independent media house, i.e. a non-tribal (non-Yoruba and non-Benin) affiliated media house] which reported it.


Benin people, abeg make una just stay humble when Yorubas dey talk, I beg ... (There are several more facts)

TAO11:




You are a very cunning unrepentant liar. And I am exposing you fully in a bit.

On Slave trade: It is quite ironic that what you're trying to defend is actually evidence against you.

You are trying to defend the idea that there was a point in time in Benin's history when there was a no slave trade policy. Yet you are at the same time challenging me to provide evidence for slave trade in Benin kingdom. Can't you see my evidence very clearly in the very idea you're trying to defend?


That they stopped it (it's actually not a stop, it is in fact a pause) at some point shows clearly that there was slave trade in Benin kingdom. They started around the late 15th century, paused for some time around the 16th century (and traded exclusively in other times such as pepper, ivory, palm oil, etc.) and then continued in the 17th century.



And you almost killed me with laughter when you attached details of the "Benin Massacre and Expedition of 1897" as 'facts' showing that Benin kingdom didn't engage in slave trade.


Hello, The events of 1897 are post Atlantic Slave Trade events. By 1897, slave trade in Africa has already been generally abolished, so how can the events after slave trade be evidence that Benin kingdom didn't participate? Good try, but try again!


On the Benin bronze artifacts:
I think you need to visit an ophthalmologist, because no where did I mention that the Oba of Benin exchanged the Benin bronze artifacts for money or anything; instead I have repeatedly and consistently stated that the Benin bronze artifacts were looted by the Europeans after their reinforcement which was aimed at avenging the 8 out of 10 men of the Phillip's expedition killed by the Binis.


What I stated instead (which you are bent on twisting and spinning) is that the Oba (after spending six months in the forest to evade his execution) came out begging and willing to offer up the kingdom's wealth [which consists of barrels of oil (worth £183, 000 today) and ivory tusks (worth about £ 276, 000, 000 today)]. And I noted that the offer was too late because he was still expelled from his kingdom.


Instead of twisting what I said, I think the better options are that you either simply keep shut (just like your kinsman, prolog2) or you bring forward your evidence to the contrary.



Yes the Yorubas (just like the Binis and others) traded in slaves, and going by today's standards, that was awful. But do I think it's fair and objective to judge them by today's standard (i.e. by the standards of about 400 years later)? of course No. That was simply quite normal then, we have only evolved into a more civil and humanitarian society nowadays to realize how awful those things are.


For instance, in the days of yore, societies are by default at war with each other, and real steps (such as signing some bilateral agreements, etc.) have to be taken by two societies for them not to attack each other. It's the other way round nowadays because we have evolved differently. Today, societies are by default at peace with each other, and real steps (such as provocation, intimidation, etc. from at least one end) have to be taken for two societies to attack each other.

It is about the same way it will be unfair and not objective today to judge the men of the days of yore for marrying under-18 ladies. These are just our modern standards which are even arguably largely subjective.


So, I won't judge our ancestors (both Yoruba or Benin) as wrong for have traded in slaves in those days.



Moreover, I am still waiting for you and prolog2 to dispute the facts that the Yorubas were the teachers and masters of the Binis as regards the art, craft, skill, and technique of metal casting.


Did you hear the part of that B.M. documentary where the expert mentioned in clear terms that the kings of Benin paid homage to Ile-Ife?


Did you hear where it was clearly mentioned that a bronze cast figure of an Oni of Ife was among the bronze castings found in the palace of the Oba of Benin centuries ago?


Did you hear where it was clearly mentioned that the Benin bronze castings are descendants of the older Ife bronze castings?


Also, I didn't hear any of you criticize the present Oba of Benin for paying homage at "Orun Oba 'Do" shrine in Ile-Ife. I posted a video [from an independent media house, i.e. a non-tribal (non-Yoruba and non-Benin) affiliated media house] which reported it.


Benin people, abeg make una just stay humble when Yorubas dey talk, I beg ... (There are several more facts)

I was talking about the lie you said about oba.
I was the one that corrected you on the time of the slave trade.
I showed you an article that has no mention of what you said about oba surrendering all his kingdoms wealth. Kindly show us an artivcle confirming your lie. You type these long a** mentions saying the same thing or nonsense.

Why a man is addressing another man as dear, sweartheart or sweetie , I guess is none of my concern. To each of its own. Your sexuality is your issue not mine. Nairaland is not a bad place for you to come out of the closet.

And you know what a tribalist is. My definition is the same as everybody. You read what I posted, it clearly doesn’t match up with the B.S you posted.

You clearly have some type of grudge or something, I don’t know.

Show us your claim that Oba surrendered his city and wealth to stay alive. That’s a big fat lie.

Thank God our oba and our people weren’t involved in slave trade unlike our neighbors in the southwest.
Does it pain you badly that our art is well renowned and praised all over the world and yours doesn’t get the same appreciation and love ours do?
If it does, well too bad

Favor99:

I was talking about the lie you said about oba.
I was the one that corrected you on the time of the slave trade.
I showed you an article that has no mention of what you said about oba surrendering all his kingdoms wealth. Kindly show us an artivcle confirming your lie. You type these long a** mentions saying the same thing or nonsense.

Why a man is addressing another man as dear, sweartheart or sweetie , I guess is none of my concern. To each of its own. Your sexuality is your issue not mine. Nairaland is not a bad place for you to come out of the closet.

And you know what a tribalist is. My definition is the same as everybody. You read what I posted, it clearly doesn’t match up with the B.S you posted.

You clearly have some type of grudge or something, I don’t know.

Show us your claim that Oba surrendered his city and wealth to stay alive. That’s a big fat lie.

Thank God our oba and our people weren’t involved in slave trade unlike our neighbors in the southwest.
Does it pain you badly that our art is well renowned and praised all over the world and yours doesn’t get the same appreciation and love ours do?
If it does, well too bad

Lol ... hello I know the time of the trans-atlantic slave trade and you didn't teach me for the first time even though you joyfully think you did. I alluded to the issue of the Oba been expelled from his kingdom in order to free whoever it was of you or prolog2 from their delusion of grandeur that Benin kingdom or its Oba was any mysterious or different from other people when the issue of Oba banning slave trade came up.



You mentioned that the article you attached makes no mention of what I said about the then Oba of Benin "surrendering all his kingdom's wealth" and as such I have lied about the Oba.

Well I think you are a narcissist to think that If the article YOU posted doesn't contain an information, then it automatically means no other article contains the information. I have repeatedly mentioned that the world doesn't revolve around you. Anyways the first screenshot attachment below shows what you were asking for (And I have helped you highlight the relevant lines I was alluding to).



On why I use words like "dear" and "sweetheart", I have answered you before already but you seem to have a twisted mind or you just want to be seen saying something or both. I was respectfully patting you because your emotion was easily noticeable; but it seems you don't want to be treated gently but harshly.



You are suggesting here that you don't have some private meaning for the term you've be using (i.e. tribalist). In that case, a tribalist according to Merriam-Webster dictionary is "an advocate of tribalism" and 'tribalism' according to the same dictionary refers to "tribal consciousness and loyalty". So, according to this dictionary I am not only a tribalist, I am proud to be one. This definition shows that being a tribalist and been loving, tolerant, etc. are not mutually exclusive. So, you may want to look for other words, but make sure whichever word you'll bee choosing this time around matches specific aspects of what I've written so far.



Do I have a grudge? short answer No.



Was Benin kingdom involved in slave trade? short answer Yes; Long answer:

Slaves were bought by Europeans from many African kingdoms and cities including Benin kingdom. In fact you seem to admit this fact earlier when you suggested that it was later banned by the Oba (which I mentioned was actually a pause because it continued in the century following that). I wonder why you turned around now to pretend it never happened at all.
Anyways, refer to the second screenshot attachment below for evidence of transatlantic slave trade in Benin kingdom (I have helped you highlight the relevant lines I was alluding to).



Lol ... regarding your statement that the Benin bronze artifacts are MORE praised COMPARED to Ife's.

Again, this is another inaccurate statement from Binis, and I will give you the background and correction:

1) More than 2,000 artifacts were STOLEN by the Europeans from Benin city in 1897 during the Massacre, and the artifacts are now scattered all over the world with many of them in the British Museum.

2) In modern times, there are pressures from different group throughout the world (including government and traditional authorities in Nigeria) that the once stolen artifacts be returned to their original owners considering the dubious means through which they were gotten.

3) Ironically the present custodians aren't actually giving them up anytime soon (considering the down effect that will have on revenue). So, a diplomatic way of managing things is obviously to massage the ego of the African owners. That way pressure may be managed.


But on the other hand, only very few of the several Ife bronze castings (one of which I saw physically and took a picture of at a Museum in the U.S.) are outside the shores of Nigeria; and the means through which they were obtained by their present custodians is starkly unlike in the case of the Benin's ... it was peaceful and cordial. The remaining lots are in Ile-Ife.


Having given you the background, it is obvious that the popularity of these artifacts could not possible be alike outside Nigeria [as one numbers up to over 2,000 and because they were stolen, while the other which can be counted on your finger are not so many because they were willingly given].


I wish to say with emphasis that no expert in art, anthropology, archeology, or history has ever ranked any Benin artifact as equal to (let alone grater than) the Ife artifacts when been compared. And if you think otherwise please provide me evidence of any statement by any expert that compared both and ranked Bini's as higher or even suggested it.


Instead, whenever they are being compared by EXPERTS, the discussions always tilt in favor of the Ife's in terms of the radio-carbon date, in terms of
the originality of the technique used, in terms of the aesthetic realistic naturalism of the figures, in terms of their uniqueness and distinctiveness in the whole African tradition of Art, etc.


For example, when the German Anthropologist, Leo Frobenius led his excavation expedition to Ile-Ife in 1910. he came across the Olokun Head and the sight threw him into a state of utter confusion because he refused to believe that Africans were ever capable of making such casting. He was utterly confused and couldn't believe his eyes (for this figure he saw in Africa) despite the fact that the world had already seen the Benin castings many years earlier in 1897. What does this tell you about Benin casting and Ife casting?


In fact, his confusion over what he described as "a head which rivaled in accomplishment with the finesse realism of the Greek" led him to proclaim to the world that he had stumbled upon the remains of the lost Greek civilization of Atlantis in Ife, because he wasn't prepared to believe that the art work he saw in Ile-Ife was African.


Later in 1938, new bronze artifacts were accidentally discovered when a man was digging a foundation for a new house in Ife. The new findings were reported with huge enthusiasm by an American anthropologist William Bascom for the Illustrated London News. Bascom in his article likened the people who made the Ife artifacts to the great Italian Renaissance sculpture, Donatello.

Like Leo Frobenius, Willam Bascom expressed deep concern and surprise as to how the Ife castings could have come from Africa. He was surprised despite the fact that the world is already aware of the Benin bronzes and that they are from Africa.

He expressed his surprise and worry over the Ife artifacts in his article for the Illustrated London News in the following words:

"How on a comparatively obscure corner of this vast and backward continent could an art and a technique have flowered that take their stand beside the best ever evolved by the elaborate civilizations of Europe and Asia?".


It is obvious to any objective person -- given the view of these experts --- that when comparing the Ife castings (particularly The Ife Head and Olokun Head) to any ancient art work in the world, the Benin castings do not appear on the list at all --- they do not come any close. This is not emotions.


Please refer to the British Museum documentary in the link attached below for verification of the facts I have alluded to here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa0st_aMjmA&t=26s

TAO11:



Lol ... hello I know the time of the trans-atlantic slave trade and you didn't teach me for the first time even though you joyfully think you did. I alluded to the issue of the Oba been expelled from his kingdom in order to free whoever it was of you or prolog2 from their delusion of grandeur that Benin kingdom or its Oba was any mysterious or different from other people when the issue of Oba banning slave trade came up.



You mentioned that the article you attached makes no mention of what I said about the then Oba of Benin "surrendering all his kingdom's wealth" and as such I have lied about the Oba.

Well I think you are a narcissist to think that If the article YOU posted doesn't contain an information, then it automatically means no other article contains the information. I have repeatedly mentioned that the world doesn't revolve around you. Anyways the first screenshot attachment below shows what you were asking for (And I have helped you highlight the relevant lines I was alluding to).



On why I use words like "dear" and "sweetheart", I have answered you before already but you seem to have a twisted mind or you just want to be seen saying something or both. I was respectfully patting you because your emotion was easily noticeable; but it seems you don't want to be treated gently but harshly.



You are suggesting here that you don't have some private meaning for the term you've be using (i.e. tribalist). In that case, a tribalist according to Merriam-Webster dictionary is "an advocate of tribalism" and 'tribalism' according to the same dictionary refers to "tribal consciousness and loyalty". So, according to this dictionary I am not only a tribalist, I am proud to be one. This definition shows that being a tribalist and been loving, tolerant, etc. are not mutually exclusive. So, you may want to look for other words, but make sure whichever word you'll bee choosing this time around matches specific aspects of what I've written so far.



Do I have a grudge? short answer No.



Was Benin kingdom involved in slave trade? short answer Yes; Long answer:

Slaves were bought by Europeans from many African kingdoms and cities including Benin kingdom. In fact you seem to admit this fact earlier when you suggested that it was later banned by the Oba (which I mentioned was actually a pause because it continued in the century following that). I wonder why you turned around now to pretend it never happened at all.
Anyways, refer to the second screenshot attachment below for evidence of transatlantic slave trade in Benin kingdom (I have helped you highlight the relevant lines I was alluding to).



Lol ... regarding your statement that the Benin bronze artifacts are MORE praised COMPARED to Ife's.

Again, this is another inaccurate statement from Binis, and I will give you the background and correction:

1) More than 2,000 artifacts were STOLEN by the Europeans from Benin city in 1897 during the Massacre, and the artifacts are now scattered all over the world with many of them in the British Museum.

2) In modern times, there are pressures from different group throughout the world (including government and traditional authorities in Nigeria) that the once stolen artifacts be returned to their original owners considering the dubious means through which they were gotten.

3) Ironically the present custodians aren't actually giving them up anytime soon (considering the down effect that will have on revenue). So, a diplomatic way of managing things is obviously to massage the ego of the African owners. That way pressure may be managed.


But on the other hand, only very few of the several Ife bronze castings (one of which I saw physically and took a picture of at a Museum in the U.S.) are outside the shores of Nigeria; and the means through which they were obtained by their present custodians is starkly unlike in the case of the Benin's ... it was peaceful and cordial. The remaining lots are in Ile-Ife.


Having given you the background, it is obvious that the popularity of these artifacts could not possible be alike outside Nigeria [as one numbers up to over 2,000 and because they were stolen, while the other which can be counted on your finger are not so many because they were willingly given].


I wish to say with emphasis that no expert in art, anthropology, archeology, or history has ever ranked any Benin artifact as equal to (let alone grater than) the Ife artifacts when been compared. And if you think otherwise please provide me evidence of any statement by any expert that compared both and ranked Bini's as higher or even suggested it.


Instead, whenever they are being compared by EXPERTS, the discussions always tilt in favor of the Ife's in terms of the radio-carbon date, in terms of
the originality of the technique used, in terms of the aesthetic realistic naturalism of the figures, in terms of their uniqueness and distinctiveness in the whole African tradition of Art, etc.


For example, when the German Anthropologist, Leo Frobenius led his excavation expedition to Ile-Ife in 1910. he came across the Olokun Head and the sight threw him into a state of utter confusion because he refused to believe that Africans were ever capable of making such casting. He was utterly confused and couldn't believe his eyes (for this figure he saw in Africa) despite the fact that the world had already seen the Benin castings many years earlier in 1897. What does this tell you about Benin casting and Ife casting?


In fact, his confusion over what he described as "a head which rivaled in accomplishment with the finesse realism of the Greek" led him to proclaim to the world that he had stumbled upon the remains of the lost Greek civilization of Atlantis in Ife, because he wasn't prepared to believe that the art work he saw in Ile-Ife was African.


Later in 1938, new bronze artifacts were accidentally discovered when a man was digging a foundation for a new house in Ife. The new findings were reported with huge enthusiasm by an American anthropologist William Bascom for the Illustrated London News. Bascom in his article likened the people who made the Ife artifacts to the great Italian Renaissance sculpture, Donatello.

Like Leo Frobenius, Willam Bascom expressed deep concern and surprise as to how the Ife castings could have come from Africa. He was surprised despite the fact that the world is already aware of the Benin bronzes and that they are from Africa.

He expressed his surprise and worry over the Ife artifacts in his article for the Illustrated London News in the following words:

"How on a comparatively obscure corner of this vast and backward continent could an art and a technique have flowered that take their stand beside the best ever evolved by the elaborate civilizations of Europe and Asia?".


It is obvious to any objective person -- given the view of these experts --- that when comparing the Ife castings (particularly The Ife Head and Olokun Head) to any ancient art work in the world, the Benin castings do not appear on the list at all --- they do not come any close. This is not emotions.


Please refer to the British Museum documentary in the link attached below for verification of the facts I have alluded to here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa0st_aMjmA&t=26s

Ok I’m not sure why you seem so hungry and thirsty to compete with Benin. Your real thirsty.
But anyway the same was said about the Benin art. That they were surprised it came from an African civilization. Refer to the top of the 2nd image that I kindly posted for you. Cheers

But you obviously some deep severe inferiority complex that you have to try and fight and compete with Benin on the internet.
Someone made a point and you’ve been running around the internet for hours to try and promote ancient Ife and rubbish Benin.
I’m glad I’m so important to you that you have to prove to me something.
But I think you should take up this matter with historians. Historians are the ones that have been giving us Edo/Benins all the attention and accolades and praise for our art and kingdom.
If you feel under-appreciated by them, then go ahead and write a Petition to smithsonian museum to take your kingdom’s art more seriously.

That’s your issue. You’ve got some severe inferiority complex bro. I feel you though, decades of colonialism and the after effects can do that

If your so superior, why waste all this energy writing mentions that take up half a page making fights where there is none.
The first image shows how our Benin art had a strong influence over the early formation of modernism in Europe. I see you missed that the first time, so I posted it again


Here is a link for more info on the Benin Bronzes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benin_Bronzes

Oh yea TAO11, in reference to that image. This is the first I’ve seen or heard of this. It shows the oba was willing to offer money and ivory to avoid being exiled. He didn’t give up his kingdom or art. That was at a time African kings including your Yoruba kings were even giving off their kingdoms and lands to be protectorates of Europe.
So this isn’t out of place. At least Benin fought and didn’t give themselves up.
You kind of exaggerated this story and added a spin to it.
He was going to be exiled so he offered money to stay, not his people.
There’s nothing extreme about this. One lost in a battle or war against another nation. Your wasting my time, battling petty trivial battles with you.

You obviously don’t have much going on in your life right now so I understand you need something to massage your damaged ego, so you resort to this.
Whites attack other groups or nations of people around the world. Blacks including Yorubas like attacking people they should be building something constructive with.
The self-defeating mentality of the black man. Smh
Instead of you to learn how to code or computer programming to develop your people like Mark Zuckerberg, your here on the internet wasting everyone’s time trying to prove that art your ancestors made 500 years ago is more superior that another African civilizations art.
Your priorities is twisted and confused

Favor99:
Oh yea TAO11, in reference to that image. This is the first I’ve seen or heard of this. It shows the oba was willing to offer money and ivory to avoid being exiled. He didn’t give up his kingdom or art. That was at a time African kings including your Yoruba kings were even giving off their kingdoms and lands to be protectorates of Europe.
So this isn’t out of place. At least Benin fought and didn’t give themselves up.
You kind of exaggerated this story and added a spin to it.
He was going to be exiled so he offered money to stay, not his people.
There’s nothing extreme about this. One lost in a battle or war against another nation. Your wasting my time, battling petty trivial battles with you.

You obviously don’t have much going on in your life right now so I understand you need something to massage your damaged ego, so you resort to this.
Whites attack other groups or nations of people around the world. Blacks including Yorubas like attacking people they should be building something constructive with.
The self-defeating mentality of the black man. Smh
Instead of you to learn how to code or computer programming to develop your people like Mark Zuckerberg, your here on the internet wasting everyone’s time trying to prove that art your ancestors made 500 years ago is more superior that another African civilizations art.
Your priorities is twisted and confused

Lol ... Hello, I never said the Oba offered his kingdom or art. Stop deceiving your self by spinning and re-reading what I have repeatedly said. I said repeatedly that he offered the Kingdom's WEALTH (I never said he offered the kingdom or the art or human beings --- I mentioned consistently that the artifacts were stolen), and I mentioned what the wealth was namely barrels of oil and ivory all running into hundreds of millions of pounds in today's valuation.


On your fresh point about African cities and kingdoms giving up their land for the colonialist; this is another fresh self-delusion on your part that Benin was any different. And if I refute you now you will come with the excuse of you are sorry, you didn't know it was like that, "this is the first time I've seen or heard of this". But I won't take that excuse from you this time.


Now listen for the record, after the abolishment of slave-trade in Africa, the Europeans colonized every African land including you beloved Benin empire (Ethiopia is the only exception). Stop being a mythomaniac, stop deluding yourself that your beloved Benin is any different.

[Recall that when I provided you evidence of slave trade in Benin kingdom as well the Oba offering the kingdom's wealth, your excuse was that you didn't know, and that you're reading that for the first time. I pardon you now, but I wont take such excuse from you again going forward].


You keep saying the British and the Benin kingdom fought a war. This Benin people and delusion are like 5 and 6. Hello ... that was never a war boy, To claim that's a war is to claim Operation Python dance was a war between the Nigerian Army and IPOB. All history books refer to it as "The Benin Massacre". It was the case of a mighty army "oppressing" a weaker people who are at their mercy. Stop calling it a fight. The Benin people attacked the 10 man Phillip's expedition coming for "negotiation", after which the British came to massacre Benin. That's the accurate presentation.


Regarding your almost endless rant about how I should be coding, I am not meaningfully engaged, etc; all I will say is "kontinew" shebi you live with me to know what I do and don't do! I think your rant here shows you to be lacking in content, yet you don't want to accept defeat regarding the facts I have presented.

To refresh you memory, the facts are that:


1) The civilization at Ife is many centuries superior and ahead of the one at Benin

2) The Benin oral tradition told the Binis that they had learnt their casting skills and techniques from the Yoruba people of life.

3) The kings of Benin paid homage to Ile-Ife in the days of yore.

4) The practice of homage paying to Ile-Ife by the kings of Benin still continues in modern times as evidenced by the action of the present Oba of Benin when he paid homage earlier this year at the "Orun Oba 'Do" shrine in Ife (where the heads of the Obas of Benin from Eweka 1 to Adolo are buried).

5) The kingdom of Benin like many other kingdoms and cities in Africa traded slaves with the Europeans during the trans Atlantic slave trade period.

6) Oba Ovonramwen Nogbaisi (during the Benin Massacre, i.e. after the abolishment of slave trade in Africa) was supposed to be hung but later came out of hiding and offered up the kingdom's WEALTH comprising of barrel of oil and ivory worth hundreds of millions of pounds today.

7) Beni's artifact comes no where close to Ife's artifact of in terms of radio-carbon date, in terms of originality of the techniques used, in terms of aesthetic realistic naturalism, in terms of uniqueness and distinctiveness in the whole African tradition of Art, etc.


* In case you've forgotten, you have not provided any single evidence from any expert to challenge any single one of the 7 above-listed facts.

Thank you ...

And to correct your mistake, the Ife castings are not 500 years old, they are at least 800 years old according to experts ...

Favor99:

Ok I’m not sure why you seem so hungry and thirsty to compete with Benin. Your real thirsty.
But anyway the same was said about the Benin art. That they were surprised it came from an African civilization. Refer to the top of the 2nd image that I kindly posted for you. Cheers

But you obviously some deep severe inferiority complex that you have to try and fight and compete with Benin on the internet.
Someone made a point and you’ve been running around the internet for hours to try and promote ancient Ife and rubbish Benin.
I’m glad I’m so important to you that you have to prove to me something.
But I think you should take up this matter with historians. Historians are the ones that have been giving us Edo/Benins all the attention and accolades and praise for our art and kingdom.
If you feel under-appreciated by them, then go ahead and write a Petition to smithsonian museum to take your kingdom’s art more seriously.

That’s your issue. You’ve got some severe inferiority complex bro. I feel you though, decades of colonialism and the after effects can do that

If your so superior, why waste all this energy writing mentions that take up half a page making fights where there is none.
The first image shows how our Benin art had a strong influence over the early formation of modernism in Europe. I see you missed that the first time, so I posted it again


Here is a link for more info on the Benin Bronzes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benin_Bronzes

It is interesting how two people engage in an argument and then one of them suddenly scream why are you arguing with me? Well the other person could have asked the same question too, because two people are involved in the argument. This applies to your statement that I'm hungry and thirsty to compete with Benin

Regarding your point that the European were surprised when they saw the Benin bronzes too -- as to how they could have come from Africa. I know this already, but you're me missing the salient point, but I will break it down for you:


The first artifact the Europeans and the world at large saw that changed their perception of African art was the Benin artifacts in 1892. prior to that time the world had thought the only type of art African could make was unrealistic carving with savage heads, etc. Now their perception has changed that we can do realistic art.


In 1910, Leo Frobenius despite now been aware of what Africans are capable of producing in terms of art (going by the exposure of the Benin artifacts to the world), he was so stunned by the sight of the Head of Olokun that he insisted that ile-Ife suggests the remains of the lost Greek civilization of Atlantis.

Recall that by 1897 the world is now aware that Africans can do realistic art, hence such deep state of confusion which Leo Frobenius found himself after sighting the Head of Olokun is therefore no longer a question of can Africans do realistic art? It is now a case of we have seen what African are capable doing (in the Benin castings), but I insist this Head of Olokun is too good to be African.


The obvious deduction from these historical scenarios is that the Benin castings are incomparable to the Ife castings. And we saw the same attitude in the fact that both Leo Frobenius and William Bascom didn't compare the Ife casting to the Benin casting, rather they compared the Ife castings to the works of Donatello and the best works of the Egyptians, Greek, Italians, etc. even after these anthropologists have been aware of the realistic art of the Binis. Now this is the context of what I was explaining to you.



Lol ... My consistent replies to you is not to show that you are important contrary to what your narcissist self think, rather it is because I have vowed to consistently expose your pathological lies and deliver you from the grip of delusion of grandeur. Going forward, I will not tolerate your I'm so sorry im just reading it for the first time excuse any more. Moreover, have you also thought of the fact that you've been replying me? Should I conclude based on your weird reasoning that you hold me in very high esteem for replying? It's not always one way boy, ... again the world doesn't revolve around you.


Furthermore, I don't have any problem with the historians and (other experts generally) contrary to what you think; rather I appreciate them because all the facts that I've debunked you with have come from them.


Address specifically the 7 points I have listed above and stop your unnecessary rants.


I am waiting ...

TAO11:




Lol ... Hello, I never said the Oba offered his kingdom or art. Stop deceiving your self by spinning and re-reading what I have repeatedly said. I said repeatedly that he offered the Kingdom's WEALTH (I never said he offered the kingdom or the art or human beings --- I mentioned consistently that the artifacts were stolen), and I mentioned what the wealth was namely barrels of oil and ivory all running into hundreds of millions of pounds in today's valuation.


On your fresh point about African cities and kingdoms giving up their land for the colonialist; this is another fresh self-delusion on your part that Benin was any different. And if I refute you now you will come with the excuse of you are sorry, you didn't know it was like that, "this is the first time I've seen or heard of this". But I won't take that excuse from you this time.


Now listen for the record, after the abolishment of slave-trade in Africa, the Europeans colonized every African land including you beloved Benin empire (Ethiopia is the only exception). Stop being a mythomaniac, stop deluding yourself that your beloved Benin is any different.

[Recall that when I provided you evidence of slave trade in Benin kingdom as well the Oba offering the kingdom's wealth, your excuse was that you didn't know, and that you're reading that for the first time. I pardon you now, but I want take such excuse from you again going forward].


You keep saying the British and the Benin kingdom fought a war. This Benin people and delusion are like 5 and 6. Hello ... that was never a war boy, To claim that's a war is to claim Operation Python dance was a war between the Nigerian Army and IPOB. All history books refer to it as "The Benin Massacre". It was the case of a mighty army "oppressing" a weaker people who are at their mercy. Stop calling it a fight. The Benin people attacked the 10 man Phillip's expedition coming for "negotiation", after which the British came to massacre Benin. That's the accurate presentation.


Regarding your almost endless rant about how I should be coding, I am meaningfully engaged, etc; all I will say is "kontinew" sheri you live with me. I think your rant here shows you to be lacking in content, yet you don't want to accept defeat regarding the facts that:


1) The civilization at Ife is many century superior and ahead of the one at Benin

2) The Benin oral tradition told the Binis that they had learnt their casting skills and techniques from the Yoruba people of life.

3) The kings of Benin paid homage to Ile-Ife in the days of yore.

4) The practice of homage paying to Ile-Ife by the kings of Benin still continues in modern times as evidenced by the action of the present Oba of Benin when he paid homage earlier this year at the "Orun Oba 'Do" shrine in Ife (where the heads of the Obas of Benin from Eweka 1 to Adolo are buried).

5) The kingdom of Benin like many other kingdoms and cities in Africa traded slaves with the Europeans during the trans Atlantic slave trade period.

6) Oba Ovonramwen Nogbaisi (during the Benin Massacre, i.e. after the abolishment of slave trade in Africa) was supposed to be hung but later came out of hiding and offered up the kingdom's WEALTH comprising of barrel of oil and ivory worth hundreds of millions of pounds today.

7) Beni's artifact comes no where close to Ife's artifact of in terms of radio-carbon date, in terms of originality of the techniques used, in terms of aesthetic realistic naturalism, in terms of uniqueness and distinctiveness in the whole African tradition of Art, etc.


* In case you've forgotten, you have not provided any single evidence from any expert to challenge any single one of the 7 above-listed facts.

Thank you ...

And to correct your mistake, the Ife castings are not 500 years old, they are at least 800 years old according to experts ...

Where in the article did it say he gave up all of his kingdom’s wealth. You added that in there. That wasn’t all of the kingdom’s wealth, but just a small part of it.
This image below will clearly debunks your point 7.
Look at the top of the image.
Rubbishing Benin art shows signs of inferiority complex and jealousy.
Well if you hate Benin kingdom and Benin art that’s your issue.
Our kingdom and our accomplishments are highly revered in history. If you feel embittered and envious that your Ife doesn’t get the attention and love Benin does, well that’s not my problem. But I’m happy I’m giving you the attention you so desire.
You seem to crave and are desperate for attention and validation.

Favor99:

Where in the article did it say he gave up all of his kingdom’s wealth. You added that in there. That wasn’t all of the kingdom’s wealth, but just a small part of it.
This image below will clearly debunks your point 7.
Look at the top of the image.
Rubbishing Benin art shows signs of inferiority complex and jealousy.
Well if you hate Benin kingdom and Benin art that’s your issue.
Our kingdom and our accomplishments are highly revered in history. If you feel embittered and envious that your Ife doesn’t get the attention and love Benin does, well that’s not my problem. But I’m happy I’m giving you the attention you so desire.
You seem to crave and are desperate for attention and validation.

Oh thank God after a long explanation you seem to be coming to your senses about what I said the Oba gave up (i.e. not art, nor the kingdom, nor human beings; but wealth) but you still predictably added your your usual twist.


Regarding the wealth which I specifically mentioned what they are (i.e. oil and ivory), I should be the asking you two questions namely:


To point out where I said the Oba gave up "ALL" the kingdom's wealth?

I have only repeatedly mentioned that he gave up the kingdom's wealth (and I specifically mentioned what wealth he gave up). Ironically I didn't add the word "ALL" which you have deceptively added as your dubious nature has dictated to you.


Also, the onus is in you to point out where the article mentions that the Oba only gave up "JUST A SMALL PART OF" the kingdom's wealth. You mentioned this, so you should prove where you found it in that article. On the other hand, I didn't mention "ALL" so I am not obliged to point it out. So, point out also where I said "ALL".


You are an unrepentant liar which I am bent on continuously exposing. So you have failed here to address my point number 6.



On point number 7, you noted that your "image below will clearly debunks (sic)" my point. And when I checked the top of the image which you said I should check, I saw a statement which reads:

"The Benin Bronzes are more naturalistic than MOST African art of the period."

Well I think this is an opportunity for me to educate you on the basics of English language, so sit back and follow this carefully:

ENG 101 for Dummies:

The word "MOST" in the English language is not one and the same thing as the word "ALL".

Whenever the word "MOST" is used in English language, it shows that THERE ARE AT LEAST SOME EXCEPTION(S).

So, what you've presented as evidence here actually supports my case against you; that is, there are at least some African arts that are more naturalistic than the Benin Bronzes.


And I have shown from the evidence I have culled from the attitudes of Leo Frobenius and William Bascom that the exceptional African art been suggested (as MORE NATURALISTIC than Benin's) from your own evidence's use of the word "MOST" is no other than the art of IFE.

So, your own evidence gives more weight to what I'm saying in respect of point 7 Thank you ...

See, facts can't really be veiled, it will always find its way out.

And mind you I am not rubbishing Benin's art, I am only putting it in its place.


Lol ... I am not envious of Benins art work, all we are doing is simply getting at the facts. Don't take it personal.

Ife's Art work has not only gotten it's due attention, it has actually always been praised by experts as rivaling the works of the great Italian renaissance sculpture, Donatello, not even compared with any African work (except Egypt's).


Talking about attention, don't you think I'm giving you your much sought and craved attention by responding to you according to your own weird reasoning?

Again, It's a two way thing boy.

So it becomes obvious that the best fight you could give is to waffle around point 6 and 7 without actually proving anything. You actually turned out to expose yourself as a crooked liar on point 6 as well as proving my case against you on point 7.

Points 1 to 7 are still waiting for your attention, give them some good shots boy.

Favor99:

Where in the article did it say he gave up all of his kingdom’s wealth. You added that in there. That wasn’t all of the kingdom’s wealth, but just a small part of it.
This image below will clearly debunks your point 7.
Look at the top of the image.
Rubbishing Benin art shows signs of inferiority complex and jealousy.
Well if you hate Benin kingdom and Benin art that’s your issue.
Our kingdom and our accomplishments are highly revered in history. If you feel embittered and envious that your Ife doesn’t get the attention and love Benin does, well that’s not my problem. But I’m happy I’m giving you the attention you so desire.
You seem to crave and are desperate for attention and validation.

Your ignorance and delusion on the topic of discussion here (just as most Benin people) is pitiable and understandable.

Your own evidences keep proving my points.

Check out the name of the man mentioned in your attached screenshot "Igue-Igha", you will quickly notice how this name mentioned in your own evidence supports my point number 2.

Igue-Igha is the Ile-Ife man beleived by the Binis to have been sent from Ife to civilize the Binis in the art, craft, skills, techniques, science, and technology of metal casting.

He is still revered in Benin up till today, and a shrine is actually set up for him in Benin for his veneration

TheSorrowfulMan:



Useless terrorist, so legal money is when you steal the wealth of the Niger Delta and enriched yourselve, You bear the name of a terrorist king... Sardauna of Sokoto,

Without Southern Nigeria, the North would be like Niger republic and Chad, silly Almajiri

You are the most confused set of people in this world

I enjoyed this piece of history.

proxillin:


SOme people are getting history wrong. Islam came to Nigeria through Fulanis before Christians.

You can see the way they are arguing here. They don't even know the history of Africa or Nigeria. They are ranting about how I am biased.

See illiteracy of History. You should consider your gaffe up there embarrassing.

Islam was in Yorubaland for several centuries before the Fula people ever heard or adopted it. It was in Hausaland as well for a long period before Danfodio instigated the terrorism jihad up there.

Read books before making statements such as the one above.

For more readings see G. O. Gbadamosi Islam in Yorubaland & J. D. Y. Peel’s book on religion in Yorubaland [I can’t recall the actual book titles but they’re close to what I have up there].

darlingtonNYIG:
Fulani slave trade occurred more with the Arabs. The Tuaregs trafficked slaves way back before the trans-atlantic slaves trade. So Fulanis where victims and dealers in slavery.

The emboldened is misleading. It gives the impression that there was a trade in slaves monopolised/conducted by the Fula. You could have said ‘the trade in Fulani slaves occurred more with the Arabs’

[b][/b][quote author=TAO11 post=72651278]