I often ask myself, why was MAN created into a world where evil already existed. Why was man subject to a test that he was almost certain to fail and why did his progenitors have to suffer for this first sin caused by evil that already existed in a world into which all men are born.

The bible talks about the tree of knowledge of evil and good , which means there was evil before we were created. What is the source of all the evil in this world if I may ask ;

- Is it MAN by knowledge of it
- Is it another entity by creation of it
- Or what ?

Furthermore, we often blame the devil for all the evil in the world, but the bibles says ;

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Job 2:10 English Standard Version
But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil ?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Lamentations 3:38
Do not both adversity and good come from the mouth of the Most High?

Evil had existed before MAN, MAN is a victim of this evil as well as a perpetrator of this evil. The evil has brought untold suffering and pain on man and animal alike.

Typically believers explain this away with a concept called Theodicy which according to Wikipedia is is described as - "the vindication of divine providence in view of the existence of evil"

I am not sure I buy the Theodicy argument, so I ask the room, who is to blame for all the evil and suffering in this world .

cc
MuttleyLaff
Originakalokalo
Ihedinobi3

frosbel2:
I often ask myself, why was MAN created into a world where evil already existed. Why was man subject to a test that he was almost certain to fail and why did his progenitors have to suffer for this first sin caused by evil that already existed in a world into which all men are born.

The bible talks about the tree of knowledge of evil and good , which means there was evil before we were created. What is the source of all the evil in this world if I may ask ;

- Is it MAN by knowledge of it
- Is it another entity by creation of it
- Or what ?

Furthermore, we often blame the devil for all the evil in the world, but the bibles says ;

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Job 2:10 English Standard Version
But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil ?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Lamentations 3:38
Do not both adversity and good come from the mouth of the Most High?

I think it was Originakalokalo, who said something to the effect that you're a greenhorn. These are learner miss road questions

Why was MAN created into a world where evil already existed.?
Answer:
MAN was not created into a world where evil already existed.


Why was man subject to a test that he was almost certain to fail?
Answer:
Man was subject to a test that he was almost certain to fail is the start of man becoming a better man

Why did his progenitors have to suffer for this first sin caused by evil that already existed in a world into which all men are born.
Answer:
The aftermath of the choice made with the first sin committed by Man is that his progenitors inherited a kinked template

The bible talks about the tree of knowledge of evil and good, which means there was evil before we were created. What is the source of all the evil in this world if I may ask?
Answer:
The bible talked about the tree of knowledge of evil and good, which in the original text, says the tree of knowledge of beautiful and adversity. You probably didnt know that the phrase "the tree of knowledge of beautiful and adversity" is the type of figure of speech called a merism The tree is the gateway, eating off it is the source of the experience of all the evil and good in this world

Is it MAN by knowledge of it?
Answer:
In a sense, yes

Is it another entity by creation of it?
Answer
Evil is the absence of good.
Not doing the right thing, at the right time and same time not be in right standing with God is not good and we have evil the absence of good

- Or what?
Answer
God triumphs over evil in the end and the end justifies the means

frosbel2:
Evil had existed before MAN, MAN is a victim of this evil as well as a perpetrator of this evil. The evil has brought untold suffering and pain on man and animal alike.

Typically believers explain this away with a concept called Theodicy which according to Wikipedia is is described as - "the vindication of divine providence in view of the existence of evil"

I am not sure I buy the Theodicy argument, so I ask the room, who is to blame for all the evil and suffering in this world.

Who do you think? Tell me who and who, you'll apportion blames to

[quote author=MuttleyLaff post=74668950]I think it was Originakalokalo, who said something to the effect that you're a greenhorn. These are learner miss road questions

Insult before answer - great !

Why was MAN created into a world where evil already existed.?
Answer:
MAN was not created into a world where evil already existed.

Debunked :

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die." - Genesis 2:17

"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." - Genesis 3:22

Why was man subject to a test that he was almost certain to fail?
Answer:
Man was subject to a test that he was almost certain to fail is the start of man becoming a better man

Brain dead argument. So this is how MAN was tested to be a better MAN ;

1. Knowing that he will SIN and exposing him to SIN ( Instead of protecting him ).
2. Pursue a policy of collateral damage to all MANKIND because of the actions of one man
3. Usher in an eon of suffering , pain and hopelessness.
4. Blame MAN for it
5. Hide the concept of HELL from MAN so he can blindly SIN and not know the consequences
6. Prepare for him an eternal furnace of unquenchable fire for all eternity

This is your definition of a TEST ??

Why did his progenitors have to suffer for this first sin caused by evil that already existed in a world into which all men are born.
Answer:
The aftermath of the choice made with the first sin committed by Man is that his progenitors inherited a kinked templat

In other words, his descendants inherited the blame for the SIN of their ancestor which then means ;

1. They are ALL guilty of SIN at birth
2. Free will is non existent
3. MAN is setup to FAIL from day one

This is not JUSTICE , it's RUBBISH

The bible talks about the tree of knowledge of evil and good, which means there was evil before we were created. What is the source of all the evil in this world if I may ask?
Answer:
The bible talked about the tree of knowledge of evil and good, which in the original text, says the tree of knowledge of beautiful and adversity. You probably didnt know that the phrase "the tree of knowledge of beautiful and adversity" is the type of figure of speech called a merism The tree is the gateway, eating off it is the source of the experience of all the evil and good in this world

LIE !

The original word used from the Lexicon is Hebrew - וָרָ֔ע (va·ra,) which means evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity

Your so called Merism ( Apologist bullsh1t) cannot change the original meaning of the word.

Is it MAN by knowledge of it?
Answer:
In a sense, yes

So man was setup to fail which resulted in sin which resulted in death and suffering and pain and then another man ( who is also GOD ) was sent to be the panacea for this initial fall that was caused by the setting up of MAN to fail and sin and then suffer in pain.

I say bladderdash

Is it another entity by creation of it?
Answer
Evil is the absence of good.
Not doing the right thing, at the right time and same time not be in right standing with God is not good and we have evil the absence of good

The absence of good may not necessarily mean evil if evil did not exist. The absense of good is evil because evil was created as a contrast to good.

WHO CREATED EVIL ?

- Or what?
Answer
God triumphs over evil in the end and the end justifies the means

Who do you think? Tell me who and who, you'll apportion blames to

God should always triumph over evil not wait to the end. Are you suggesting by this statement that God intentionally allows evil to reign for millennia upon millennia knowing that this evil will include pain , suffering and anguish ? Is this not what you call SADISM ?

@MuttleyLaff

I know these are difficult statements to counter.

Take your time Next week is okay

frosbel2:
@MuttleyLaff
I know these are difficult statements to counter.

Take your time Next week is okay

Difficult statement ke? Unlike for you, it is a walk in the park to counter.

If not that I am out and about doing groceries shopping I would have already put you out of your misery. Small time now, you be squealing "insult before answer" again.

frosbel2:
Debunked :

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die." - Genesis 2:17

"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." - Genesis 3:22

Debunked my arse.
Just because a fish is in ocean or river, doesnt mean it is drinking water

frosbel2:
Brain dead argument. So this is how MAN was tested to be a better MAN ;

1. Knowing that he will SIN and exposing him to SIN ( Instead of protecting him ).
2. Pursue a policy of collateral damage to all MANKIND because of the actions of one man
3. Usher in an eon of suffering , pain and hopelessness.
4. Blame MAN for it
5. Hide the concept of HELL from MAN so he can blindly SIN and not know the consequences
6. Prepare for him an eternal furnace of unquenchable fire for all eternity

This is your definition of a TEST ??

Are you done? Are you finished? You pulled all those six bullshit from your rear end, abi?
I wont dignify these false bullshits a reply other than come back when you get your facts right and your ducks in a proper row

frosbel2:
In other words, his descendants inherited the blame for the SIN of their ancestor which then means;

1. They are ALL guilty of SIN at birth
2. Free will is non existent
3. MAN is setup to FAIL from day one

This is not JUSTICE, it's RUBBISH

Are you feeling better now after the rant and rave?

frosbel2:
LIE!

The original word used from the Lexicon is Hebrew - וָרָ֔ע (va·ra,) which means evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity

Your so called Merism (Apologist bullsh1t) cannot change the original meaning of the word.

What is evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity, if not adversity?
Have you checked yet the meaning of "towb"? (i.e. the original word Good was translated from)

You're doing a good job showing how ignorant you are about merism

frosbel2:
So man was setup to fail which resulted in sin which resulted in death and suffering and pain and then another man (who is also GOD ) was sent to be the panacea for this initial fall that was caused by the setting up of MAN to fail and sin and then suffer in pain.

I say bladderdash

If you find yourself creating from scratch similar Microsoft Word documents over and over again, what advisably should you do? What do you think is the name of the solution for not be repeating creating from scratch each new Word document? One word please.

frosbel2:
The absence of good may not necessarily mean evil if evil did not exist. The absense of good is evil because evil was created as a contrast to good.

WHO CREATED EVIL?

Evil is an emergent phenomenon. Creating evil has no exclusivity about it. Evil "created" can be as a result of a suppressed evil nature and also from a collective effort

Evil is the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light

frosbel2:
God should always triumph over evil not wait to the end.
Are you suggesting by this statement that God intentionally allows evil to reign for millennia upon millennia knowing that this evil will include pain, suffering and anguish? Is this not what you call SADISM ?

I actually meant to type God and humans triumphs over evil in the end and the end justifies the means

God is following due processes, I am sorry but you'll have and got to crack a few eggs to make an omelette

frosbel2:
@MuttleyLaff

I know these are difficult statements to counter.

Take your time Next week is okay

See? You are not only out of your depth, you are a glutton for punishment too. You like being in pains, you enjoy being in severe pains, dont you? You must be masochist is why. SMH

^^^


Wow - is this your rebuttal ?

I actually thought you had the historical knowledge and bible awareness to at least meet me half way with your answers. Alas , you could only scribble a few lines of unintelligible rubbish, hoping that some of the younger ones here will think you have made some sense. Well, I say you are not making sense , rather , you are making up nonsense,

I give you another try.

frosbel2:
^^^

Wow - is this your rebuttal ?

I actually thought you had the historical knowledge and bible awareness to at least meet me half way with your answers. Alas , you could only scribble a few lines of unintelligible rubbish, hoping that some of the younger ones here will think you have made some sense. Well, I say you are not making sense , rather , you are making up nonsense,

I give you another try

You are either a clown or maybe you need getting laid

^^

End of argument. Swallow your pride and move on -

Oh by they way I am not looking to get laid, I actually have a wife , lol.

frosbel2:
^^

End of argument. Swallow your pride and move on -

Oh by they way I am not looking to get laid, I actually have a wife , lol.

I know you do, that's why I suggested you neeed getting laid and get laid real quickly
What I posted up there, even as succinct as it is, went swoosh over your head. Your tummy isnt strong to stomach it. Like I earlier said, you are out of your depth

MuttleyLaff:
I know you do, that's why I suggested you neeed getting laid and get laid real quickly
What I posted up there, even as succinct as it is, went swoosh over your head. Your tummy isnt strong to stomach it. Like I earlier said, you are out of your depth

Trust me mate, I always know when a guy has lost the argument, they resort to petty barbs.

Oh well, was nice talking to you on this topic.

Hopefully some more sincere others can do justice to these questions.

frosbel2:
Trust me mate, I always know when a guy has lost the argument, they resort to petty barbs.

Oh well, was nice talking to you on this topic.

Hopefully some more sincere others can do justice to these questions.

Trust me billy no mates, I know when a person is gagging to be laid, thats when he vents his frustration on others, opening ill conceived up threads and starting arguments to share his ignorance with.

It would be nice talking to you on the topic when you are ready to discuss and come for an argument, but I know that's too much to ask, you are bent on your unreasonable arguments. People like you, would start an argument in an empty room. Truth needs no argument, but not a lie, lies needs many arguments.

MuttleyLaff:
Trust me billy no mates, I know when a person is gagging to be laid, thats when he vents his frustration on others, opening ill conceived up threads and starting arguments to share his ignorance with.

It would be nice talking to you on the topic when you are ready to discuss and come for an argument, but I know that's too much to ask, you are bent on your unreasonable arguments. People like you, would start an argument in an empty room. Truth needs no argument, but not a lie, lies needs many arguments.

How does opening threads to discuss important topics tantamount to 'venting frustration' . Naturally I am inquisitive which is actually what took me away from religion ,whats wrong with that ?

Now I know you are not only deluded but also insincere , not worth my precious time and using your own words ' totally OUT OF YOUR DEPTH' when it comes to deep matters pertaining to the BIBLE and it's history.

Go watch some YouTube videos and educate yourself.

Evil did not preceed human. Humans bore Conscience, the Breath of God, His Gene, which is transferable from Generations to Generations.
Jesus came to teach us how to separate Darkness from Light; Bad from Good; Death from Life; Forget from Faith; Abandon from Hope; Worry from Peace and Hate from Love.
He taught us how to pray and ask God to lead us not into Temptation and deliver us from Evil.
On top, He advises us to love ourselves as He loves us. Thus completing the cycle of Birth, Life, Death and Resurrection.

[quote author=orisa37 post=74686416]Evil did not preceed human. Humans bore Conscience, the Breath of God, His Gene, which is transferable from Generations to Generations.

Sorry , your answer does not make sense. The bible says that evil existed before MAN, do you know more than those who wrote the Bible ?

Jesus came to teach us how to separate Darkness from Light; Bad from Good; Death from Life; Forget from Faith; Abandon from Hope; Worry from Peace and Hate from Love.

So before Jesus, nobody knew how to separate Darkness from Light ; Bad from Good ; Death from Life etc ??

He taught us how to pray and ask God to lead us not into Temptation and deliver us from Evil.

So people did not know to how to pray and ask God to lead us not into Temptation and deliver us from Evil before Jesus ?

On top, He advises us to love ourselves as He loves us. Thus completing the cycle of Birth, Life, Death and Resurrection

I am feeling dizzy just reading this answer.

Your post is less a question and more of rhetorics so it is hard to answer it. But I will try to separate out the issues and explain them.

First, you object to the creation of man in a world with evil in it already. I assume that you mean "moral evil" rather than just unpleasant and adverse conditions of existence. If you mean the latter or both, please clarify. In the meantime, I will answer the first.

Moral evil existed because Satan and a third of the angels sinned. But moral evil is not like a contagious disease. It is quite simply a negative response of an individual moral creature to God's Authority. That is, moral evil is creature rebellion against God. As such, it is really limited to the individual doing the rebelling. Others can rebel in solidarity with that individual, yes, but in doing so, it is their own moral choice as well. They could just as easily have chosen not to join the individual in question in their rebellion. So, the existence of moral evil already was not a problem for Adam and Eve when they were created.

Second, you pretty much claim that man was certain to fail the test in the Garden. Why do you make this claim? Why could he not just as easily have chosen not to fail? What made him "almost certain to fail"?

Third, you also claim that Adam's and Eve's descendants have to suffer for their sin in the Garden? Why do you say this? What is your proof that this is the case?

Fourth, moral evil is creature rebellion. Creature rebellion is a choice made by a creature. So, evil comes out of creature free will.

Fifth, the Bible verses you shared address the other kind of evil, the unpleasant and adverse conditions of existence that God brings upon creatures who do evil. God is just and holy. So He does not ignore rebellion against His Will. He judges it. And how He does so is by causing adversity or calamity to come upon those who insist on disobeying Him. There is also evil that is just the natural consequence of ignoring God's rules in Creation. Those too happen because we act foolishly.

Sixth, I couldn't agree more with this statement in your post:

"Evil had existed before MAN, MAN is a victim of this evil as well as a perpetrator of this evil. The evil has brought untold suffering and pain on man and animal alike."

Seventh, natural evil - whether the judgments of God upon moral evil or just natural consequences of foolish behavior - is a direct response to moral evil. Moral evil is a choice that moral creatures make against God and His Will for His Creation. So, it is all the rebels in God's Creation who are responsible for all the evil in it.

frosbel2:
I often ask myself, why was MAN created into a world where evil already existed. Why was man subject to a test that he was almost certain to fail and why did his progenitors have to suffer for this first sin caused by evil that already existed in a world into which all men are born.

The bible talks about the tree of knowledge of evil and good , which means there was evil before we were created. What is the source of all the evil in this world if I may ask ;

- Is it MAN by knowledge of it
- Is it another entity by creation of it
- Or what ?

Furthermore, we often blame the devil for all the evil in the world, but the bibles says ;

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Job 2:10 English Standard Version
But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil ?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Lamentations 3:38
Do not both adversity and good come from the mouth of the Most High?

Evil had existed before MAN, MAN is a victim of this evil as well as a perpetrator of this evil. The evil has brought untold suffering and pain on man and animal alike.

Typically believers explain this away with a concept called Theodicy which according to Wikipedia is is described as - "the vindication of divine providence in view of the existence of evil"

I am not sure I buy the Theodicy argument, so I ask the room, who is to blame for all the evil and suffering in this world .

There's no one to blame but the perpetuators and their enablers but going by the popular religious text apparently the god is to blame as the buck stops at its desk.

NATURE is screwing MAN and that is EVIL.

frosbel2:
How does opening threads to discuss important topics tantamount to 'venting frustration'.

I know that expectation is the mother of all frustration, but learn how to turn your frustration into fascination, especially when it has to do with God. You will learn more from opening threads to discuss important topics by being fascinated by God and His creations in general, than you will be from being mad at God, feeling dissappointed with God and being frustrated by all you see around you.

Do you know about the parable of the lesson of the lamp at all? Well, I upcycle wine, whisky, beer and general all kinds of bottles into vintage bespoke handmade lamps, perfect for/as, bedside, lounge/living room/dinning area, cafe/bar/clubs table lamps. Now, ask 10 people to take a look at any particular one lamp of my collection, trust me, you'll get 10 different perspectives, however if someone's to say, "The lamp is evil, that the lamp is ugly, that the lamp created and/or caused the ills all about" then that statement actually is not telling nothing true about the lamp, but it does, however, say a lot about the person with this opinion.

What people say about God, has nothing to do with God but has a lot do to do with the person, somebody like you frosbel2, who enjoys and likes to put God down with scathing threads and salty posts.

frosbel2:
Naturally I am inquisitive ...

I am glad you know and admit that you're a nosy parker.

frosbel2:
... which is actually what took me away from religion, whats wrong with that?

With all your inquistiveness, you see how you havent recognised that religion will give you a free pass into heaven. I know you find it hard to believe that pure and true religion that's faultless earns you a free pass, so would you like the bible passage(s) that provides clear evidence of this?

frosbel2:
Now I know you are not only deluded but also insincere...

Many have an image of me. Few get the picture

frosbel2:
...not worth my precious time and using your own words 'totally OUT OF YOUR DEPTH' when it comes to deep matters pertaining to the BIBLE and it's history.

The deep matters pertaining to the BIBLE and it's history you know, is a drop of water, compared with the ocean you dont know.

frosbel2:
Go watch some YouTube videos and educate yourself.

You can watch YouTube videos till kingdom come but because of your negative standpoint, you will never get any nourishment from it

MuttleyLaff:
I know that expectation is the mother of all frustration, but learn how to turn your frustration into fascination, especially when it has to do with God. You will learn more from opening threads to discuss important topics by being fascinated by God and His creations in general, than you will be from being mad at God, feeling dissappointed with God and being frustrated by all you see around you.

- I am still trying to understand why you think I am or should be frustrated simply by opening 'salty' articles about religion

Secondly, I am not mad at God because I believe in God, not sure where you got your inferential perception from.

You religious fanatics like to assume that people like me who have abandoned Christianity must be disappointed with life or have some debilitation that has caused us frustration.

On the contrary, we left because we saw Christianity for what it is, a haven for the unreasonable, the hypocrites and the deceived. We decided to use our reasoning faculties to decipher the content of our belief and came to the conclusion that this belief system was all made up nonsense and astounding rubbish.

Do I believe in God - Yes
Does God like us to seek him and find him and reason with him - Yes
Is God a bully who stifles debate and reason - No

What people say about God, has nothing to do with God but has a lot do to do with the person, somebody like you frosbel2, who enjoys and likes to put God down with scathing threads and salty posts.

Questioning a book which consists majorly of myth and fable with some littered truth is not putting God down. God gave us a brain with all the logic and reasoning ability to use and make the best of this life he has given us. As a parent I am sure he loves inquisitive children, he surely must cherish the queries we have on some of the actions that have been attributed to him in the bible. In due course we will all come to a knowledge of the perfect TRUTH ( which is NOT CHRISTIANITY for sure ).

With all your inquistiveness, you see how you havent recognised that religion will give you a free pass into heaven. I know you find it hard to believe that pure and true religion that's faultless earns you a free pass, so would you like the bible passage(s) that provides clear evidence of this?

If you were a good scholar of the bible, you would have recognised that there is no heaven to go to and therefore religion cannot get you to a place that does not exist. Keep dreaming up stuff like this and you will be institutionalised in no time.