The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View - Religion (3)

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The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View - Religion (3) - Nairaland

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10 Things You Should Know About The Garden Of Eden / The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden Account Of The Fall Of Man By Reno Omokri / Deconstructing The Lies & Myth of Consensual Adult Homosexuality/Same Sex Union (2) (3) (4)

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Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by Akin1212(m): 12:10am On Mar 01, 2019

budaatum:

You have added a rogue, "only", to suit your own narrative, and you claim "If the tree wasn't there, they were surely not going to die". Where do you get that from? How do you know that if they had not eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge and evil that they might have done something else at a later date that have pissed God off, or God just got bored of them eventually so God killed them?

Anyway,

1, They died.

2, They died and had been dying, even before they knew they died, and eventually became knowledgeable about the death they were dying.

3, Because, death is inevitable.

Your explanation is still suiting my narrative. There's no where you take it to that won't suit what my narrative is. And my narrative is that the whole story was a cooked up story that was poorly written.

If they could do something else that would lead to their death, how does this God of creation becomes perfect in the story? Beside the fact that you bringing up that they could have died by doing something else is a fallacy and straw man, what was written was that they ate from a tree and death came because they did so. Death came does not mean they died instantly, but the disobedience opened them up for death.
So what's your point again?

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by MuttleyLaff: 9:14am On Mar 01, 2019

Akin1212:
You should be responding to Budatuum and not me.

Budatuum said, death comes to anything that has life, disobedience or not.

So you admit that you've unfortunately managed to muck up the water with the inconsequent reasons you advanced because sin actually entered the world through one man's disobedience, and death actually came to man, through and/or because of this disobedience sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all, by de facto, sinned

You partner is incorrigible on this subject, as I have previously told our dear friend that the comment "you shall surely die" made by God, means "die slowly", as the original word and verb used is "muth" signifying "to die". That, if the fruit is eaten, then death, incontrovertibly, will happen immediately without delay but the consummation of it, is at a later or future time.

The serpent tried to spin this, by insisting Man would not surely die, but that instead, Man's will eyes will be opened and Man will be like God, knowing good and evil.

We now know Man surely dies and the earth too is slowly depreciating and deteriorating

Akin1212:
Your explanation is still suiting my narrative. There's no where you take it to that won't suit what my narrative is. And my narrative is that the whole story was a cooked up story that was poorly written.

If they could do something else that would lead to their death, how does this God of creation becomes perfect in the story? Beside the fact that you bringing up that they could have died by doing something else is a fallacy and straw man, what was written was that they ate from a tree and death came because they did so. Death came does not mean they died instantly, but the disobedience opened them up for death.
So what's your point again?

If at all the whole story was a cooked up story, there is nothing that is poorly written about it.
The perfection of God is not in question, the wages of sin is death and the same sin and death eventually will be no more

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Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by budaatum: 9:44am On Mar 01, 2019

Goldenventures:
The story in genesis was not designed to teach history and facts. It is an allegory meant to convey mystical / spiritual truths.

The garden of eden is all about the constitution of man from the outer to the inner man.

Till date, even the African secret societies in our villages teach truths to their adepts using symbols and stories.

Thanks for this. Maybe if Akin1212 would take note and stop taking it as historical fact he might comprehend what I've said.

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by Nobody: 10:24am On Mar 01, 2019

They had a choice to make,to remain obedient and continue their learning process which of course will take time depending on the discretion of their maker and teacher{God} or to disobey and see the other side if there is something they needed know faster than the teaching technique introduced by their teacher.
Of course like any other intelligent being they chose adventure rather than ever waiting for their teachers instructions on what's next!
Surely they understood what death means because the story you're picking this from also clearly stated that God told Adam 'you will die',in any language or sign that's best understandable to this single intelligent creature back then in that garden God made himself clear on what death means!
Sadly today majority claiming christians have twisted the meaning of that word 'death' thus making it meaningless in comparison to the real import{cease to exist}
What majority of mankind is yearning for today is just what Adam and Eve wanted back then in that garden, most people feels like God is just too slow or dull with his program,so many like you have concluded that there is no God! They reasoned that if he truly exist,what has he been doing all this while? When evil is carried out every second.
But the TRUTH is that God has his own teaching technique and nobody can hurry him up out of anxiety so any student that feels like leaving his faculty due to his style of teaching is free to leave!

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by calculator123(m): 12:14pm On Mar 01, 2019

Akin1212:
Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.

Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.

The instruction given to them by God was that, if they eat from the tree, they will acquire the knowledge of good and evil, in other words, they will know what is bad and also know what is good and that they will die. They didn't even know that death is bad neither did they know that disobedience is bad, since they had not eaten from the tree.

Now, how were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?
If you bring up the excuse that Satan deceived them, then how were they supposed to know that Satan was deceiving them, were they warned to beware of Satan?

If you have freewill, you must have knowledge of good and evil before you can process deceit, do good or do evil. You cannot commit sin if you don't have the knowledge of good and evil. So where did the concept of the original sin come from? Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil? It does not add up.

Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

the big question most theist run away from is who created the evil and satan is that garden? if is Good the he has some element of evil too

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by jom28gy(m): 9:57pm On Mar 13, 2023

Akin1212:
Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.

Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.

The instruction given to them by God was that, if they eat from the tree, they will acquire the knowledge of good and evil, in other words, they will know what is bad and also know what is good and that they will die. They didn't even know that death is bad neither did they know that disobedience is bad, since they had not eaten from the tree.

Now, how were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?
If you bring up the excuse that Satan deceived them, then how were they supposed to know that Satan was deceiving them, were they warned to beware of Satan?

If you have freewill, you must have knowledge of good and evil before you can process deceit, do good or do evil. You cannot commit sin if you don't have the knowledge of good and evil. So where did the concept of the original sin come from? Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil? It does not add up.

Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

I think, you were sensible here, and logical too, the common laws says,a person should not be punished for the offence it penalty is not written as law, this stories seems to be concorted by people,who have the opportunities of doing so.can God punished somebody for what they did not know?

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by Kobojunkie: 10:05pm On Mar 13, 2023

jom28gy:
■ I think, you were sensible here, and logical too, the common laws says,a person should not be punished for the offence it penalty is not written as law, this stories seems to be concorted by people,who have the opportunities of doing so.can God punished somebody for what they did not know?

There was a law given and Adam broke that very law. undecided

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by budaatum: 10:05pm On Mar 13, 2023

Akin1212:

Your explanation is still suiting my narrative. There's no where you take it to that won't suit what my narrative is. And my narrative is that the whole story was a cooked up story that was poorly written.

Where you been?

Funny that you were arguing with a person who claims and agrees that all stories are cooked up by human beings.

As to its poorly written, guess that's what we got, so understand it as it is, or not.

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by Kobojunkie: 10:06pm On Mar 13, 2023

calculator123:
■ the big question most theist run away from is who created the evil and satan is that garden? if is Good the he has some element of evil too

1. God created good and evil. He hinted at this by the fact that the tree He commanded man not to steal from was referred to as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. undecided

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by tctrills: 10:24pm On Mar 13, 2023

Akin1212:
Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.

Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.

The instruction given to them by God was that, if they eat from the tree, they will acquire the knowledge of good and evil, in other words, they will know what is bad and also know what is good and that they will die. They didn't even know that death is bad neither did they know that disobedience is bad, since they had not eaten from the tree.

Now, how were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?
If you bring up the excuse that Satan deceived them, then how were they supposed to know that Satan was deceiving them, were they warned to beware of Satan?

If you have freewill, you must have knowledge of good and evil before you can process deceit, do good or do evil. You cannot commit sin if you don't have the knowledge of good and evil. So where did the concept of the original sin come from? Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil? It does not add up.

Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

You are very important questions but you got a few things wrong.
1. They were not zombies. They had good processing power. Remember, Adam named all creatures.
We can say that they were like kids. At what age do kids begin to understand wrong and right, it's hard to say.
And you are correct, they did not commit sin. You need the knowledge of right and wrong before you can commit sin.
Now just because your 4 years old child does not fully understand sin, does that mean you wouldn't punish him if he steals meat from your pot?

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by budaatum: 10:26pm On Mar 13, 2023

Akin1212:

Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.

Before we read God created Adam and Eve, we read that God had made "mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground”
, and those humans could not possibly have been "zombies" or they would not possibly have been able to rule over anything.

Even their reward/pay was greater than Adam and Eve's, being "every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food”. As opposed to Adam and Eve's reduced "free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die”.

So why doesn't it occur to anyone to ask why Adam and Eve are a demotion from the humans created before them, I wonder?

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by Kobojunkie: 10:45pm On Mar 13, 2023

Akin1212:
■ Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward. Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.
■ The instruction given to them by God was that, if they eat from the tree, they will acquire the knowledge of good and evil, in other words, they will know what is bad and also know what is good and that they will die. They didn't even know that death is bad neither did they know that disobedience is bad, since they had not eaten from the tree.
■ Now, how were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of? If you bring up the excuse that Satan deceived them, then how were they supposed to know that Satan was deceiving them, were they warned to beware of Satan? If you have freewill, you must have knowledge of good and evil before you can process deceit, do good or do evil.
■ You cannot commit sin if you don't have the knowledge of good and evil. So where did the concept of the original sin come from? Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil? It does not add up. Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

1. This conclusion is wrong! Adam and Eve were quite capable of logically processing their surroundings from when they were created so they were far from zombies. They did not require full knowledge of evil in order to obey the simple command aka Law which was given to them. Yes, there was a Law that was given to them. undecided

2. The statement in bold is an assumption on your part. undecided

3. One does not first have to have an understanding of good and evil, bad and whatever else to obey a simple command. "Stop!" for instance! You don't first require a complete understanding of the situation around you to know that when someone shouts, you should probably just stop. Also, we don't have enough details from the narrative to fully conclude that Adam and Eve didn't fully understand the consequence of their choice. undecided

4. Sin refers simply to disobedience of God's commandment. That is simply what sin is. God gave Adam a commandment/Law which was that Adam not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam sinned against God when he choose to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There is no requirement given by God that one first have a full understanding of good and evil prior to committing a sin against Him. That is another faulty assumption of yours. undecided

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by jom28gy(m): 12:47am On Mar 17, 2023

Kobojunkie:
There was a law given and Adam broke that very law.

so what are you insinuating?

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by Kobojunkie: 12:48am On Mar 17, 2023

jom28gy:
so what are you insinuating?

Adam stole from God against God's command and that is what sin is— disobedience of God's commandment. undecided

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by Kobojunkie: 3:11am On Mar 17, 2023

Akin1212:
■ If they had the freewill to reject the judgement of God and go for another option, then they must have weighed their options to see which is GOOD for them or which is BAD for them before making a decision. They can't just act like zombies because they have freewill, remember?
■ On the other hand, if they accepted something was good or bad from God because God told them so, what would stop them from accepting something as good or bad from Satan too if they can't process who is good or bad between God and Satan? Remember they can't process what's good or bad because they have not eaten from the tree of knowledge yet when Satan was talking to them.
■ Such are the lies of the garden of Eden. You're just using one lie to cover the other.

1. You keep running on and on about free will but what is free will in the scope of scripture? It is simply a choice between right and wrong, A and B. Even a baby could do that. Adam was given, not 10 but just one command and that command boiled down to do not steal from that tree which belongs to me. undecided

2. That fails on all sides. The serpent was created by God. Adam himself named the serpent. So, why you would think it makes sense to suggest that because Adam had a choice to make as far as whether to obey a direct command from His creator or not, appeared to adam the same as making a choice presented to him by the serpent which he named is ludicrous. Even babies are known to be able to tell their mothers apart from complete strangers. undecided

3. You have yet to point out a single lie in the story are all you continue to assert instead are private delusions of yours. undecided

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by jom28gy(m): 5:41am On Mar 17, 2023

Kobojunkie:
Adam stole from God against God's command and that is what sin is— disobedience of God's commandment.

what did Adam stoled?

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by Kobojunkie: 5:50am On Mar 17, 2023

jom28gy:
what did Adam stoled?

You read the book at all? He stole from the tree of knowledge of good and evil which belonged to God- Genesis 3. undecided

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by cezarman(m): 8:15am On Mar 17, 2023

live4dgospel:

I don't know whether you really want to find out the truth or want to further strengthen your atheist views. However the case, I will help you if you are willing to listen.
What the Scripture means by knowledge of good and evil is absolutely different from what you think. A knowledge of good and evil actually means a standard for judging what is good and evil Before the fall of man in the garden of Eden, Adam and Evil had only depended on the judgement of God on good and evil i.e they accepted what God declared as good as good and what God declared as evil as evil. That was the only standard of good and evil at that time. After man disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit, man created another standard for judging good and evil different from God's. Hence, Cane killed Abel, he actually thought it was a good thing to offer God the fruit of his labour (i.e his human effort) whereas God needs our offering of faith. And again the People commanded to multiply and fill the earth decided to build the tower of Babel to be united( they jugded they could be united and do exploits if they remain in the same place), this is a judgement that's absolutely different from God's. Hence, God later declared in a scripture which I don't want to quote the verse, that His thoughts and ways are different from ours in an immeasurable dimension. Today what God says is bad, man will say it is good and vice versa. For that reason God has given us His Law and Word so we can understand what is actually good and evil.

Genesis 11:5-7

But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

Lol don't tell me the main reason he destroyed the tower was because he was scared of what the people could achieve grin

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Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by Techobeys: 8:28am On Mar 17, 2023

Akin1212:
Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.

Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.

The instruction given to them by God was that, if they eat from the tree, they will acquire the knowledge of good and evil, in other words, they will know what is bad and also know what is good and that they will die. They didn't even know that death is bad neither did they know that disobedience is bad, since they had not eaten from the tree.

Now, how were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?
If you bring up the excuse that Satan deceived them, then how were they supposed to know that Satan was deceiving them, were they warned to beware of Satan?

If you have freewill, you must have knowledge of good and evil before you can process deceit, do good or do evil. You cannot commit sin if you don't have the knowledge of good and evil. So where did the concept of the original sin come from? Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil? It does not add up.

Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

I’m afraid you’re the one who needs to think deep for once in your life in this occasion sir. So I’ll just take you on a short ride so your brain don’t get blown out. Promise no bible verse, just logic.

I think it’s rather flimsy for you to assume that Adam and Eve didn’t know what’s good or bad before eating of there tree. Because if one hasn’t experienced death (which can be better put “eat the fruit of death”) that does not mean of ignorance of death.

So your assumption that they were like zombie is illogical and unreasonable. Not have Experiential/personal knowledge of anything does not equate ignorance of that thing. Experiential knowledge give certain result, and knowledge based on reason give certain results.

Many scientific knowledge are solely based on reason (and we call them theories), but we do not and cannot have experiential knowledge of such things, yet we are not ignorant of such things.

Also, I think you overly simplified or twisted what God said just to make your point. This is a common attribute of life and in psychology, it’s a product of non thinking or shabby thinking. You claimed God said they’ll know good and evil if they eat that tree. That’s not true, that’s not what God said. God said they’ll die if they eat of that tree. So i really don’t know if you read from the Bible or just imagined some words off your head. So endeavor to get your facts right before you put out your words bc people will know your biases and awkward thinking from your words

Lastly, I think you need to take some time to learn further because the word “eat” in that context refers to consuming or enjoy, or to derive satisfaction from that thing called the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But on a broader scale, this doesn’t mean Adam and Eve couldn’t have “used” the that tree for its purposefully. God only commanded them not to consume the tree, he didn’t tell them not to use it.

So the problem was not that they used it, they consumed it for satisfaction of desires. For example cocaine and other consciousness altering drugs are very dangerous drugs if “consumed”. Yet they can be “used” as a pain reliever and for treating many human diseases. But if cocaine is “consumed” for for pleasure, that becomes a problem that even the government punishes one for.

So the government in this context is God and he punished them for consuming what they could have only used for its purposefully.

Ok, I know you’ll deny this so I’ll only let you imagine it. Let’s imagine that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the penis, that way, Eve can easily be deceived bc she doesn’t have a penis and what lies within her legs is a flower.

Therefore, to use the penis is to use it for its primary purpose which is to urinate and if you don’t use it for that, there will be problem. The consumption of the penis will be to have sex, this way it’ll be consume for satisfaction of sexual desires. You can see that the result of these thing things are different. So imagine God telling Adam to use the penis but not to consume it for satisfaction. That’s if you can imagine btw.

So I think your idea is rather limited and you need to broaden your scope of thinking. I do have a book titled “look again”, it might help you understand human nature which is the Adam nature and the nature you have which also is the nature that God hates. When you get certain understanding, you’ll not write something so biased like this.

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by Azrael001: 1:09pm On Mar 17, 2023

obinna58:
God doesn't want them to eat the fruit but knows they'll eat anyway then acted like it was surprise to him.

God allowed Satan into the garden, planted same tree inside the garden and probably was asleep when the whole convincing happened, in fact even Adam went to work

The all merciful God have to punish them, the whole world for what he made them to do and blamed it on them.

Fear God

Ancient story 😸😹😹

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by Dtruthspeaker: 8:53pm On Mar 17, 2023

cezarman:

Lol don't tell me the main reason he destroyed the tower was because he was scared of what the people could achieve

What would you do to your mannequins that left the boutique you kept them in only to find them in the football field?

Surely they shall be put in the fire.

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by Dtruthspeaker: 8:58pm On Mar 17, 2023

jom28gy:
I think, you were sensible here, and logical too, the common laws says,a person should not be punished for the offence it penalty is not written as law, this stories seems to be concorted by people,who have the opportunities of doing so.can God punished somebody for what they did not know?

Did you not see that the penalty is "you shall die"?

Re: The Lies Of The Garden Of Eden - A Logical View by Dtruthspeaker: 9:02pm On Mar 17, 2023

Akin1212:

Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

Your thinking should have told you that the only thing that they did not know is how to decide if a thing was good or evil.

But they obviously knew other things like bad, obedience, love, ideas, names, etc.

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