shadeyinka:

Your tactics don't move me one bit.
Don't digress from the main issue "the Pascal's Wager".

On another thread if you want me to answer that I will joyfully. If you have the time to go through my earlier posts on other threads you can also know my stand.

There are some other responses that u gave that digressed from the topic,u know why u don't want to answer the question
Going through your entire posts just to find where you addressed something similar to the question I asked when u can simply give me a reply,sorry bro,if u ain't answering it forget it

Hermes019:

I should rephrase my question and be more direct,since u choose to be tactful

Does "the abrahamic God" have a book which he inspired ?

I am not being tactful about this and I can speak for the Bible !
The Bible is a Chronicle of Man's experience in relation to God.
The scriptures are all given by the inspiration of God which means, that each scripture was directed/inspired by God to be documented!

For instance, God says to Moses or David or Paul: " Document your experiences in relation to My dealings with you/your community for the sake of your posterity".
The author then writes as he knows, in his own words, using his own style of writing because he had been told to document it by God.

It is very simple to understand isn't it!

Hermes019:

The Paschals Wager would have been reasonable if
1)Only One God is worshipped by humans
2) God would reward people who simply believe in him,and doesn't mind if their purpose is insincere(as in the case of the Wager,believing not because of faith or trust,but because you feel u have nothing to lose)

Unfortunately, the Pascal's Wager work even if there are many gods: but only ONE, the "Abrahamic God" promise a take it or leave it scenario: with extreme and opposite consequence for obedience or dissobedience.

Pascal's Wager is simple mathematics: it takes just one issue at a time (in this case "believe in the existence of God". Which is in fact the basic issue and after this fundamental come other issues. It has to first be simple "that is why we have binary arithmetic".

Hermes019:

Apparently none of this holds true,there are many religions which have punishments in the afterlife for people who didn't follow their path as dictated by their belief system(so acknowledging God is not enough),some like Buddhism don't even need you to involve God,so it is not just about believing in God, which do you believe in ?,and I do not want to concur that an omniscient God would grant someone eternal bliss knowing that the individual believed in him for insincere reasons.

Sorry bro,Paschals Wager is not working for me

Please show me one other religion apart from the "Abrahamic religions" that promise extreme Bliss or Torture for the sake of Man's "denial of His identity"!

If you can find one, then I'll rest my case.

Can't you see why atheists don't care about other God's with respect to " judgment" apart from the Abrahamic God?

Hermes019:

There are some other responses that u gave that digressed from the topic,u know why u don't want to answer the question
Going through your entire posts just to find where you addressed something similar to the question I asked when u can simply give me a reply,sorry bro,if u ain't answering it forget it

My personal views will take the argument off tangent to the discussion of the Pascal's Wager.

The Pascal's Wager is simple:
What happens if you are wrong for denying the existence of the Abrahamic God?

The above condition must first be settled before reapplying the Pascal's Wager again to a question like:
What happens if you are wrong for your choice of Religion to reach the Abrahamic God?
OR
What happens if you are wrong for acting contrary to the Will (SIN) of the Abrahamic God?
etc

For Atheists, the first condition suffices

What if I'm wrong?

Then, since I refuse to die in battle, I’ll be refused entry into Valhalla.

Oh, that’s not what you meant? Well then, I’ll be denied my 72 Muslim virgins. Still not what you were talking about?

Zoroaster will throw me into his eternal House of Lies? No?

I’ll be denied entrance to Irkalla for not bringing bribes for the seven gatekeepers?

There are thousands of purported versions of Hell. You’re only fixated on one of them?

What if YOU’RE wrong…?

http://www.stupidatheist.com/debating-theists-101/debating-theists-101-2/

Pascal's wager is actually safer in reverse
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/godisdangerous.html
No one can tell which religion is the true religion.

shadeyinka:


What I personally believe has no bases for the analysis of the Pascal's Wager as it affects athiesm or theism.
At least a Muslim still takes the words of warning seriously and he wouldn't deliberately dare putting his hands in the pot
Unlike YOU!

You have concluded that
1. No personality penned the warning
2. You are willing to DARE putting your hands in the POT
3. For you believe there is NO consequence

Now, the Pascal's Wager is about the Consequence of You being Wrong versus the Reward you get if you were eventually right

You didn't answer the question

shadeyinka:

My personal views will take the argument off tangent to the discussion of the Pascal's Wager.

The Pascal's Wager is simple:
What happens if you are wrong for denying the existence of the Abrahamic God?

The above condition must first be settled before reapplying the Pascal's Wager again to a question like:
What happens if you are wrong for your choice of Religion to reach the Abrahamic God?
OR
What happens if you are wrong for acting contrary to the Will (SIN) of the Abrahamic God?
etc

For Atheists, the first condition suffices

. Now, mr Blaise pascal never suggested any god for us to believe.
What if there is no god at the end of the day, wouldn’t it mean I’ve lost the little chance for me to think for myself on earth

hakeem4:
. Now, mr Blaise pascal never suggested any god for us to believe.
What if there is no god at the end of the day, wouldn’t it mean I’ve lost the little chance for me to think for myself on earth

Precisely, but Pascal's Wager details that
1. If there was no God eventually, you gain NOTHING because you wouldn't even exist as a concious personality
HOWEVER
2. If there was a God, your Loss is INFINITY great (eternity in torment).

In other words, Pascal's Wager gives you a mathematical means of rationally making Wise and Informed choice in a game of a coin with only one side.

princy80:


You didn't answer the question

I did Sir!

NPComplete:


Wrong and dishonest analogy.

In the appropriate analogy, it's not just one pot in the middle of the road. In the real sense, it is more like 500 pots are on the road. And each of them says "100kg of gold in here. Stick your hand in here and be rewarded. All other pots contain poisonous snakes". Then there are people who have never actually stuck their hands in any pot telling u to pick their favorite pot or risk being bitten by a snake. And some of those people actually have the same favorite pot but can't agree of the best way to stick a hand in it.

So it is understandable that some people just ignore the pots and their mad advocates and continue on their way.

Pls outline the names of these 500 different gods and post where they promise eternal condemnation in hellfire in the Afterlife when their laws are disobeyed.

shadeyinka:

Precisely, but Pascal's Wager details that
1. If there was no God eventually, you gain NOTHING because you wouldn't even exist as a concious personality
HOWEVER
2. If there was a God, your Loss is INFINITY great (eternity in torment).

In other words, Pascal's Wager gives you a mathematical means of rationally making Wise and Informed choice in a game of a coin with only one side.

pascal’s argument doesn’t hold any concrete evidence it can convince theist but I definitely think it can’t convince an atheist

NPComplete:


Nah. If we count the number of christian sects that do not agree with each other alone. That is probably up to that number. Before we even start adding the Muslim and Jewish ones. Before we start adding the non-christian karma-based religions.

You know u have lost the narrative when your argument is now based on the number of useless religions there is. Lol

Is this argument about the different Christian sects or about different distinct gods and what they promised in the Afterelife?

Anas09:

Pls outline the names of these 500 different gods and post where they promise eternal condemnation in hellfire in the Afterlife when their laws are disobeyed.

GRECO-ROMAN RELIGION
The ancient Greeks believed that people died and ended up in Hades, a gray and misty place where the lord of the dead ruled. Others believed in a paradise-like place called Olympic pantheon on Mount Olympus, where gods such as Zeus lived and decided the fate of humanity. The people

who lived a good life and were constantly in the minds of the living enjoyed sunny pleasures of the Elysium, those forgotten wandered eternally in the bleakness of Hades, while the wicked fell into dark pits called Tartarus. Although the gods decided the fate of every individual on earth, someone could control his fate through divination and sacrifices to them.

EPICUREANISM
This religion known as Epicureanism is approximately 300 years older than Christianity and it has an unclear number of believers in Greece and other parts of the world today. Unlike most other religions on the planet, Epicureanism believes in many gods, but none of them takes notice of what human

beings are up to. The believers here think that everything including their gods and souls is made up of atoms. Furthermore, according to Epicureanism, there is no afterlife, so nothing like reincarnation, heaven, or hell exists to them. When an individual dies, the believers here believe that the soul also dissolves and that becomes the end of them.

BAHAI

The Bahai is a religion made up of approximately seven million people. The believers here consider that the soul of a human being is eternal and good, and it is the work of every individual to draw closer to god. Unlike most other religions that have their own specific god,

the Bahai believe in one god, who has shown himself through all other religions in the world. According to Bahai followers, heaven and hell do not exist; the two are states of being either close to or far from god. The Bahai believe that most other religious groups are mistaken when they interpret heaven and hell to be physical places as opposed to seeing them as symbolic representations of distance from god.

JAINISM
The approximately 4 million Jainism followers believe in the existence of many gods and reincarnation until liberation, a liberation that is achieved through avoidance of bad karma and causing no harm. People who do not achieve liberation continue in the cycle of rebirth and some might even have to go through

eight hells of suffering before a rebirth. The eight hells get colder at every stage, and a soul passes through a lot of torture before getting another opportunity for rebirth, and another chance to reach liberation. Although it might take a very long time, liberated souls get a place among the gods.


SHINTO
Something weird about the Shinto is that the believers need not confess that they are Shinto believers in public. According to some old Japanese legends related to the Shinto, the dead enter a gloomy underground place called Yomi, where a river separates the dead and the living. The Yomi is

a place much like the Greek Hades, and the people here have a negative view of death and corpses. The followers of this religion believe in ancient gods and spirits called Kami, although they believe that some human beings can become kami after they die. According to the Shinto, people are naturally pure, and they can retain their purity and keep away from evil through some purification rituals.

NPComplete:


It is a punishment for not following a particular precept. You are just hairsplitting. My analogy is far more accurate than yours however you choose to look at it.

Except i'm wrong, but, isn't reincarnation meant to be a second chance to make amends for the wrongs done in the previous life?

We are told, it's impossible to attend godhood in one life time, so they keep coming to improve on themselves until they reach their godhood.

If i'm wrong, pls give me an elaborate explanation about reincarnation.

If you can, keep insults out.

Hermes019:

Totally speechless,u just took dishonesty to another level just to prove u are right,ur fellow Christians would view this as blasphemy

No. I'm a Christian and i don't see blasphemy in what he said. But, if you say it is, point it out.

hakeem4:
pascal’s argument doesn’t hold any concrete evidence it can convince theist but I definitely think it can’t convince an atheist

No Sir!
The Pascal's Wager/argument is not designed for the theists...infact it is counter Faith!

The Pascal's Wager is for the Atheists. Since it doesn't require faith but logics alone.

The Pascal's Wager isn't an evidence!
It is just a mathematical problem that shows the futility of Betting your life for something of zero reward but infinite loss.

Can it convince an atheist?
Probably not!
Because unconsciously, many Atheists have a problem ONLY with the God of Abraham and it has moved them to a point of rebellious hate.
It might however make an Agnostic who truly seeks an answer to count the cost!

Many Atheists have made up their mind to bravely face the punishment of hell (if it does really exist): after all, their claim is that they wouldn't be the only ones there. The torment would be bareable if more people are in hell: so they evangelize!

hakeem4:


GRECO-ROMAN RELIGION
The ancient Greeks believed that people died and ended up in Hades, a gray and misty place where the lord of the dead ruled. Others believed in a paradise-like place called Olympic pantheon on Mount Olympus, where gods such as Zeus lived and decided the fate of humanity. The people

who lived a good life and were constantly in the minds of the living enjoyed sunny pleasures of the Elysium, those forgotten wandered eternally in the bleakness of Hades, while the wicked fell into dark pits called Tartarus. Although the gods decided the fate of every individual on earth, someone could control his fate through divination and sacrifices to them.

EPICUREANISM
This religion known as Epicureanism is approximately 300 years older than Christianity and it has an unclear number of believers in Greece and other parts of the world today. Unlike most other religions on the planet, Epicureanism believes in many gods, but none of them takes notice of what human

beings are up to. The believers here think that everything including their gods and souls is made up of atoms. Furthermore, according to Epicureanism, there is no afterlife, so nothing like reincarnation, heaven, or hell exists to them. When an individual dies, the believers here believe that the soul also dissolves and that becomes the end of them.

BAHAI

The Bahai is a religion made up of approximately seven million people. The believers here consider that the soul of a human being is eternal and good, and it is the work of every individual to draw closer to god. Unlike most other religions that have their own specific god,

the Bahai believe in one god, who has shown himself through all other religions in the world. According to Bahai followers, heaven and hell do not exist; the two are states of being either close to or far from god. The Bahai believe that most other religious groups are mistaken when they interpret heaven and hell to be physical places as opposed to seeing them as symbolic representations of distance from god.

JAINISM
The approximately 4 million Jainism followers believe in the existence of many gods and reincarnation until liberation, a liberation that is achieved through avoidance of bad karma and causing no harm. People who do not achieve liberation continue in the cycle of rebirth and some might even have to go through

eight hells of suffering before a rebirth. The eight hells get colder at every stage, and a soul passes through a lot of torture before getting another opportunity for rebirth, and another chance to reach liberation. Although it might take a very long time, liberated souls get a place among the gods.


SHINTO
Something weird about the Shinto is that the believers need not confess that they are Shinto believers in public. According to some old Japanese legends related to the Shinto, the dead enter a gloomy underground place called Yomi, where a river separates the dead and the living. The Yomi is

a place much like the Greek Hades, and the people here have a negative view of death and corpses. The followers of this religion believe in ancient gods and spirits called Kami, although they believe that some human beings can become kami after they die. According to the Shinto, people are naturally pure, and they can retain their purity and keep away from evil through some purification rituals.

Thanks for trying, but apart from the Grego-Roman Religion where Hades keeps souls down under his power, none other religion you mentioned believed in a supreme God and eternal Afterlife whether in Paradise or Fire.

And, do you also know that according to the Grego-Roman religion, a soul can escape from Hades back to earth?

No sir, these will not do. I need 500 religions which preach AfterLife of Paradise or Damnation in the Fire.

Specifically in the Fire.

The reason am saying this is, anytime you guys come up talking about God/religion, when we begin to present reasons from YHWH, you throw in these 500 religions hoping you are making sense. So, for once let's talk about what these 500 gods say about eternity.

And pls, group the Abrahamic religions together for now because they all believe in eternal life in Paradise if you obey and Fire if you don't.

Anas09:

No. I'm a Christian and i don't see blasphemy in what he said. But, if you say it is, point it out.

My sis!
Happy New year!

Am I back to NL?
No!
I just casually walked in...when I have too much time on my hands.

Shalom

shadeyinka:

My sis!
Happy New year!

Am I back to NL?
No!
I just casually walked in...when I have too much time on my hands.

Shalom

Good morning Saint of God.

And Happy New Year and Month.

Actually, that is exactly how it is with me, NL is my last resort. If i have nothing in my hands, i just casually walk in here, browse around and leave.

This place is dead. All the names with the brains are gone.

One of these days, i may just deactivate.

hakeem4:


GRECO-ROMAN RELIGION
The ancient Greeks believed that people died and ended up in Hades, a gray and misty place where the lord of the dead ruled. Others believed in a paradise-like place called Olympic pantheon on Mount Olympus, where gods such as Zeus lived and decided the fate of humanity. The people
....
a place much like the Greek Hades, and the people here have a negative view of death and corpses. The followers of this religion believe in ancient gods and spirits called Kami, although they believe that some human beings can become kami after they die. According to the Shinto, people are naturally pure, and they can retain their purity and keep away from evil through some purification rituals.

Most other religion that promises a reward in afterlife focus on wickedness of man deserving Karma.

But are you also aware that the Pascal's Wager is directed ONLY at the Abrahamic God?
Why?
He is the only one who promises Eternal Bliss for an EXCLUSIVE Faith in Him AND Eternal Pains for Unbelieve in Him. The Pascal's Wager is just mathematical cause of reasoning to arrive at a purely logical and beneficial conclusion.

Anas09:

Good morning Saint of God.

And Happy New Year and Month.

Actually, that is exactly how it is with me, NL is my last resort. If i have nothing in my hands, i just casually walk in here, browse around and leave.

This place is dead. All the names with the brains are gone.

One of these days, i may just deactivate.

Happy Sunday and Stay Blessed.

SEUN_ and his spiritual accomplices are winning more souls for satan. But I am not surprised!... In the last days, men shall be lovers of self...haters of God.

Sometimes, it is good to explain to a mad man why he is abnormal! Perhaps the little sanity that remain in him will receive strength for his cure of Insanity.

Shalom

Anas09:

Is this argument about the different Christian sects or about different distinct gods and what they promised in the Afterelife?

The different Christian sects are in certain ways different distinct gods because their criteria seem to differ. So my analogy holds.
If one person says God hates people wearing earnings and they will go to hell fire and another person says otherwise, since we have no way of knowing which way actually leads to God, we can classify them as 2 unverified gods who have distinct tastes.

Analogy holds. However u try to cut it.

Anas09:

Except i'm wrong, but, isn't reincarnation meant to be a second chance to make amends for the wrongs done in the previous life?

We are told, it's impossible to attend godhood in one life time, so they keep coming to improve on themselves until they reach their godhood.

If i'm wrong, pls give me an elaborate explanation about reincarnation.

If you can, keep insults out.

Nope not all beliefs. Some believe that should u do evil or fail to live up to expectation, u will be reincarnated as something lesser than human. Like grass or something. There are different incarnation based beliefs.

Anas09:

Thanks for trying, but apart from the Grego-Roman Religion where Hades keeps souls down under his power, none other religion you mentioned believed in a supreme God and eternal Afterlife whether in Paradise or Fire.

And, do you also know that according to the Grego-Roman religion, a soul can escape from Hades back to earth?

No sir, these will not do. I need 500 religions which preach AfterLife of Paradise or Damnation in the Fire.

Specifically in the Fire.

The reason am saying this is, anytime you guys come up talking about God/religion, when we begin to present reasons from YHWH, you throw in these 500 religions hoping you are making sense. So, for once let's talk about what these 500 gods say about eternity.

And pls, group the Abrahamic religions together for now because they all believe in eternal life in Paradise if you obey and Fire if you don't.

These people and dishonest arguments. So we should group all Abrahamic religions together now, right? Later it is u that will still belligerently claim u don't serve the same god as Muslims do.

So u think your religion is the one with one of the most barbaric punitive measure and for that it deserves a special status in the comity of religions. LMAO. It doesn't. It is a joke to the rest of us the same way other religions are a joke to u.

As long as there are opposing views in Christianity, then Pascal's Wager cannot be analogous to one simple pot on the road. That is the whole point of my argument on this thread. Shadeyinka is trying to make it seem like it is just a simple case of believing in a god or not. But we know it is more like believing in one of many gods and then believing in the right version of that one true god and then keeping the commandments of that god to the letter. The probability of that is close to not believing in any god at all.

If u were born in Pakistan, u will probably be arguing for Islam and Mohammed with the same vehement close-mindedness u currently exhibit.

shadeyinka:

I refer to the God of Abraham.

For this discussion, it is sufficient!

Do u mean Allah?

frank317:


Do u mean Allah?

I have given His identity: The God (singular) of Abraham.
For now, it doesn't matter if He is called Chukwu, Eledumare, ...

shadeyinka:

I have given His identity: The God (singular) of Abraham.
For now, it doesn't matter if He is called Chukwu, Eledumare, ...

Cool, so he can be called Allah?

shadeyinka:

No Sir!
The Pascal's Wager/argument is not designed for the theists...infact it is counter Faith!

The Pascal's Wager is for the Atheists. Since it doesn't require faith but logics alone.

The Pascal's Wager isn't an evidence!
It is just a mathematical problem that shows the futility of Betting your life for something of zero reward but infinite loss.

Can it convince an atheist?
Probably not!
Because unconsciously, many Atheists have a problem ONLY with the God of Abraham and it has moved them to a point of rebellious hate.
It might however make an Agnostic who truly seeks an answer to count the cost!

Many Atheists have made up their mind to bravely face the punishment of hell (if it does really exist): after all, their claim is that they wouldn't be the only ones there. The torment would be bareable if more people are in hell: so they evangelize!

The Pascal's wager is usually quoted by Christians and sometimes Muslims. The assumption from the quotee is that his belief in God is the right believe and everyone who believes in God believe it the same way he believes.
If the Pascal's wager must work, or if it must be reasonable as u say, then the assumption is that ur believe in God is the only and right way.
This means that if a Muslim quotes the wager and a Christian quotes the wager, both might end up fighting or arguing.
Multi believes is one of the many reason why atheists argue the existence of God. How can u say the wager is reasonable when theists are yet to agree on one worship system of any God?

frank317:


Cool, so he can be called Allah?

Depending on who you really mean!
If by Allah you mean the God of Abraham, so be it.

After all,Allah can either mean "the God" or the God of Abraham!

frank317:


The Pascal's wager is usually quoted by Christians and sometimes Muslims. The assumption from the quotee is that his belief in God is the right believe and everyone who believes in God believe it the same way he believes.
If the Pascal's wager must work, or if it must be reasonable as u say, then the assumption is that ur believe in God is the only and right way.
This means that if a Muslim quotes the wager and a Christian quotes the wager, both might end up fighting or arguing.
Multi believes is one of the many reason why atheists argue the existence of God. How can u say the wager is reasonable when theists are yet to agree on one worship system of any God?

No theist can believe in God as a "backup". That is why the Pascal's Wager is counter Faith to true believe.

The Wager isn't for those who believe. It is for those who do not so that they can logically make up their mind as per risk to reward ratio as it concerns believe in God.

With all the differences in religions, the foundermemtal basis is still FIRST a Believe in the Existence of a Creator. Without this, every sect, denomination, religious institutions BREAK DOWN with respect to the God of Abraham

This is the issue Blaise Pascal was addressing!

shadeyinka:

Depending on who you really mean!
If by Allah you mean the God of Abraham, so be it.

After all,Allah can either mean "the God" or the God of Abraham!

By allah, I mean the ones Muslims believe in, the same Muslims u say worship the same God as u. Do u believe u worship the same God with Muslims?