The Quran said "Allah is the best of planners" and there are problems with this.

Allah being perfect, all-powerful and all-knowing has planned everything perfectly, his creation are following his plans, if you're good it's Allah's plan, if you're bad it's Allah's plan, any good thing and calamity that befall someone is Allah's plan, he has given freewill which is part of his plan, if otherwise then his creation are Independent of his plan.

Now the question is,

Has Allah before creation already planned the life and end of everyone(including Satan) or he planned according to your choices and actions?

tintingz:
The Quran said "Allah is the best of planners" and there are problems with this.

Allah being perfect, all-powerful and all-knowing has planned everything perfectly, his creation are following his plans, if you're good it's Allah's plan, if you're bad it's Allah's plan, any good thing and calamity that befall someone is Allah's plan, he has given freewill which is part of his plan, if otherwise then his creation are Independent of his plan.

Now the question is,

Has Allah before creation already planned the life and end of everyone(including Satan) or he planned according to your choices and actions?

I would have love to answer.. But you are absolutely not reasonable.. And you are always twisting clear evidence..

Keep talking to yourself

Abuheekmat:



I would have love to answer.. But you are absolutely not reasonable.. And you are always twisting clear evidence..

Keep talking to yourself

Ok.

I am quite impressed by how persistent you are.

IMAliyu:
I am quite impressed by how persistent you are.

Okay, can you address the op question?

tintingz:
Okay, can you address the op question?
Has Allah before creation already planned the life and end of everyone(including Satan) or he planned according to your choices and actions

My subjective answer would be the latter.

IMAliyu:

My subjective answer would be the latter.

That's Allah planned according to your choices and actions.

Does this means Allah doesn't know your choices and actions he had to wait for you to do it? Does this means Allah has no plans and doesn't know your future until you do something?

tintingz:
That's Allah planned according to your choices and actions.

Does this means Allah doesn't know your choices and actions he had to wait for you to do it? Does this means Allah has no plans and doesn't know your future until you do something?

My subjective take
Allah knows all possiblities and outcomes, but allows for "free willed" creations to choose their path.

IMAliyu:

My subjective take
Allah knows all possiblities and outcomes, but allows for "free willed" creations to choose their path.

The premise is about Allah's plan, freewill is part of his plan, any outcome from it is part of his plan? Yes?

Now does he knows every outcome of every free-choices and actions long before you were born?

tintingz:
The premise is about Allah's plan, freewill is part of his plan, any outcome from it is part of his plan? Yes?

Now does he knows every outcome of every free-choices and actions long before you were born?

Allah's plan would extend to things beyond our control (passing of time, life and death, natural disasters. That kind of thing)
"Again my subjective take"
To the first question. Yes (like a video game with multiple choices and multiple endings, some good some bad, but the creator still knows all and planned all.)
And to the second question also. Yes

IMAliyu:

Allah's plan would extend to things beyond our control (passing of time, life and death, natural disasters. That kind of thing)
"Again my subjective take"
To the first question. Yes (like a video game with multiple choices and multiple endings, some good some bad, but the creator still knows all and planned all.)
And to the second question also. Yes

Ok, using the video game analogy, if you have powers and you know the future and planned all, won't you know the outcome of every tasks in the game, what's the essence of playing the game when you know the outcome, are you just playing for fun?

That's how God is he know every end of everyone yet he test people for fun.

We play games to learn new things, we're curious to know what happen next.

It's only someone who's imperfect and doesn't know all that test people to know their choices.

IMAliyu:

My subjective take
Allah knows all possiblities and outcomes, but allows for "free willed" creations to choose their path.

I like how you put free will in quotes because the religious concept of freewill is like an oxymoron. How is something free if you pay for it?

tintingz:
Ok, using the video game analogy, if you have powers and you know the future and planned all, won't you know outcome the of every tasks in the game, what's the essence of playing the game when you know the outcome, are you just playing for fun?

That's how God is he know every end of everyone yet he test people for fun.

We play games to learn new things, we're curious to know what happen next.

It's only someone who's imperfect and doesn't know all that test people to know their choices.

First of all, Allah had said he didn't create us for fun/game! rather Allah created us to worship Him! I'm sure the brother that used game as an analogy was only trying to make you understand some aspects of divine knowledge and decree! But regardless, even if for argument sake, that this world is a kinda game for God, unfortunately for you, it isn't a game cos you are the one at the receiving end. And no matter how you rant, wail, cry, deny, abuse, mock, curse, etc. You are still at the mercy of this God you love to hate! Until you understand that tests are meant for us, and not God, and that God having the knowledge of your choice and still asks you to choose on your own, can never be equated to mean God is imperfect! What sort of logic is that sef?!

I know instead of you to pause and reflect, you would come up with more denials and rants, and as I always say, that changes nothing!

sino:


First of all, Allah had said he didn't create us for fun/game! rather Allah created us to worship Him! I'm sure the brother that used game as an analogy was only trying to make you understand some aspects of divine knowledge and decree! But regardless, even if for argument sake, that this world is a kinda game for God, unfortunately for you, it isn't a game cos you are the one at the receiving end. And no matter how you rant, wail, cry, deny, abuse, mock, curse, etc. You are still at the mercy of this God you love to hate! Until you understand that tests are meant for us, and not God, and that God having the knowledge of your choice and still asks you to choose on your own, can never be equated to mean God is imperfect! What sort of logic is that sef?!

I know instead of you to pause and reflect, you would come up with more denials and rants, and as I always say, that changes nothing!

- The believe in hell where people will be punished for eternity does not depict a merciful God!

- Before you were born Allah already planned and knows your end, no matter your choices it's part of Allah's plan and destined, testing is meaningless, if he test then Allah must be either imperfect or malevolent in this case.

- If God knows all my choices beforehand then he already knows what to judge me, if he ask me to choose and then change his mind concerning my prior choice then he's not all-knowing therefore he's not perfect!

tintingz:
- The believe in hell where people will be punished for eternity does not depict a merciful God!

- Before you were born Allah already planned and knows your end, no matter your choices it's part of Allah's plan and destined, testing is meaningless, if he test then Allah must be either imperfect or malevolent in this case.

- If God knows all my choices beforehand then he already knows what to judge me, if he ask me to choose and then change his mind concerning my prior choice then he's not all-knowing therefore he's not perfect!

All the above hasn't shown the imperfection of God you claim. The fact that God knows your choice and still asks you to choose has no correlation with imperfection in any way!

You can either choose to believe or disbelieve, there is no third option, and the consequences are already spelt out for all! So there is no hidden knowledge of your choices cos you can't choose beyond the choices available to you!

The meaning of the tests and your freewill to choose are evident in the fact that no one is forcing you to do anything, and when the time comes, and your records are brought before you, you will understand that it was all you, you did all these online and offline by yourself, and only you is responsible and shall face the consequences! It is like a student who fails and started ranting that the lecturer hates him, his paper was called, and he was shown what he had written to be nonsense! If the student hadn't been shown his handwritten nonsense, he would keep peddling the lie that the lecturer hated him!

sino:


All the above hasn't shown the imperfection of God you claim. The fact that God knows your choice and still asks you to choose has no correlation with imperfection in any way!

You can either choose to believe or disbelieve, there is no third option, and the consequences are already spelt out for all! So there is no hidden knowledge of your choices cos you can't choose beyond the choices available to you!

The meaning of the tests and your freewill to choose are evident in the fact that no one is forcing you to do anything, and when the time comes, and your records are brought before you, you will understand that it was all you, you did all these online and offline by yourself, and only you is responsible and shall face the consequences! It is like a student who fails and started ranting that the lecturer hates him, his paper was called, and he was shown what he had written to be nonsense! If the student hadn't been shown his handwritten nonsense, he would keep peddling the lie that the lecturer hated him!

You are still not getting the main question.

Does God knows this is what will be the end of you long before you were born? No matter your choice, test, warning, does God already know the end of it?

God doesn't need to ask or wait for you to choose when he already knows your end, he's even the planner.

If God wait for you to choose before knowing your end then he's not all-knowing therefore not a perfect God. Testing someone is an attribute of Imperfection.

To make it more easier,

If there is consequence A and consequence B spelled out, did God long before you were created/born knows the exact consequence you will fall into?

tintingz:
You are still not getting the main question.

Does God knows this is what will be the end of you long before you were born? No matter your choice, test, warning, does God already know the end of it?

God doesn't need to ask or wait for you to choose when he already knows your end, he's even the planner.

If God wait for you to choose before knowing your end then he's not all-knowing therefore not a perfect God. Testing someone is an attribute of Imperfection.

To make it more easier,

If there is consequence A and consequence B spelled out, did God long before you were created/born knows the exact consequence you will fall into?

God knows exactly your end and it is predicated on your choices! That is why you have a choice and free to choose either of consequence A or B. Your choices would definitely align with either of the available consequences!

The issue that should concern you the most is how to make the right choices! I have given you the reason for the tests, and it has nothing to do with imperfection! When you see the work you had sent forth, you will have no one to blame except yourself, because it is your "hand work" !

sino:


God knows exactly your end and it is predicated on your choices! That is why you have a choice and free to choose either of consequence A or B. Your choices would definitely align with either of the available consequences!

The issue that should concern you the most is how to make the right choices! I have given you the reason for the tests, and it has nothing to do with imperfection! When you see the work you had sent forth, you will have no one to blame except yourself, because it is your "hand work" !

Is God not the planner of destiny, are my choices out of God's plan? He planned the creation of hell, evil, Satan, freewill, destiny, every characters etc.

God knows exactly your end which you can't escape, e.g he knows you will fall into consequence B no matter what, what then is the purpose of testing, for you to change your mind or what?

My hand work is useless as long as my end has already been destined by God.

People are tested to know their decisions not that they already know their decisions!, that's the purpose of testing, the person that organized the test is not perfect.

Are you not seeing the paradox in your argument?

tintingz:
Is God not the planner of destiny, are my choices out of God's plan?

God knows exactly your end which you can't escape, e.g he knows you will fall into consequence B no matter what, what then is the purpose of testing, for you to change your mind or what?

My hand work is useless as long as my end as already been destined by God.

People are tested to know their decisions not that they already know their decisions!, that's the purpose of testing, the person that organized the test is not perfect.

Are you not seeing the paradox in your argument?

Lol, You are seriously confused. If people are tested to know their decisions, why are you now arguing about knowing your decisions?! I have informed you that the test is not for God but for you! Your hand work will show you that you deserve your destiny, since it would be your hand work and nobody else! The tests shows your decisions, your choices, they are evidences for you or against you! There is no paradox here, except the one you have initiated for yourself with your line of reasoning!

sino:

Lol, You are seriously confused. If people are tested to know their decisions, why are you now arguing about knowing your decisions?! I have informed you that the test is not for God but for you! Your hand work will show you that you deserve your destiny, since it would be your hand work and nobody else! The tests shows your decisions, your choices, they are evidences for you or against you! There is no paradox here, except the one you have initiated for yourself with your line of reasoning!

The master is testing you to know your decisions, understand my premise.

The purpose of test is for the master to your decisions, the person doing the test already have his own decision while the master is testing you to know your decision since he's ignorant of it.

God has already seen the picture of you where you will end up long before you were born, he has planned everything, what exactly is he testing you for?

If God show me the book of how I made my decisions from beginning to end, then I will ask, is this exactly his plan, is he aware of this long before I was born, were all these already written in the book of destiny?

tintingz:
The master is testing you to know your decisions, understand my premise.

The purpose of test is for the master to your decisions, the person doing the test already have his own decision while the master is testing you to know your decision since he's ignorant of it.

God has already seen the picture of you where you will end up long before you were born, he has planned everything, what exactly is he testing you for?

If God show me the book of how I made my decisions from beginning to end, then I will ask, is this exactly his plan, is he aware of this long before I was born, were all these already written in the book of destiny?

I give you a test, I know the answers and i know the marks to give you if you write the correct answers, and also the marks to give you when you write the wrong answers, my decision about the marks to give you is already available to you even in your question paper! So I, the master is waiting for you my student to write your answers, I am not ignorant of the possible answers you can write, cos I planned the exams and the scores to be given! It would do you a lot of good if you are wise enough to write the right answers, but if you are focused on whether I know the answers myself or why the hell am I giving an exam which you have no other option than write, then your guess is as good as mine with regards to the outcome, you will FAIL! And if you come wailing that you failed, I will show you your answer booklet, where you were asking silly questions instead of giving the right answers, then it would be clear to you that it your fault "iwo lo fi owo ara e se ra e" It is as simple as that!

sino:


I give you a test, I know the answers and i know the marks to give you if you write the correct answers, and also the marks to give you when you write the wrong answers, my decision about the marks to give you is already available to you even in your question paper! So I, the master is waiting for you my student to write your answers, I am not ignorant of the possible answers you can write, cos I planned the exams and the scores to be given! It would do you a lot of good if you are wise enough to write the right answers, but if you are focused on whether I know the answers myself or why the hell am I giving an exam which you have no other option than write, then your guess is as good as mine with regards to the outcome, you will FAIL! And if you come wailing that you failed, I will show you your answer booklet, where you were asking silly questions instead of giving the right answers, then it would be clear to you that it your fault "iwo lo fi owo ara e se ra e" It is as simple as that!

You're still not getting the main question here.

Did you know the students will pass or fail long before you even met the student?

You planned the exam and you also know beforehand the outcome of each student's performance not after the exam, not knowing their outcome is the ignorance. That's the argument.

If you wait for the student to write exam before knowing the outcome, then you don't know all therefore not perfect.

tintingz:
You're still not getting the main question here.

Did you know the students will pass or fail long before you even met the student?

You planned the exam and you also know beforehand the outcome of each student's performance not after the exam, not knowing their outcome is the ignorance. That's the argument.

If you wait for the student to write exam before knowing the outcome, then you don't know all therefore not perfect.

If I fail you because I know you would fail, how would you accept that you failed?!

sino:


If I fail you because I know you would fail, how would you accept that you failed?!

What's the point of exam when you know I will fail?

Something like "I know you will fail, I created you and i know your end before you're born, let me create you and test you fun"

Let's go back before Allah started creation, does he know what will happen at the end of everything?

tintingz:
What's the point of exam when you know I will fail?

Something like "I know you will fail, I created you and i know your end before you're born, let me create you and test you fun"

Let's go back before Allah started creation, does he know what will happen at the end of everything?

Are you accepting that you are already a failure?!

I have not shared my knowing that you would fail, whether you would pass or fail you don't know and it is up to you! I only asked you what would be your response if I failed you based on my knowledge that you would fail!

The ability to make your choice is given to you, this is besides the hidden knowledge that is with Allah (SWT), except you want to accept that you know that you are really a failure, your choices as with regards to the tests, will eventually determine your end. The evidences would be shown to you, and at that point you would have no excuses!

sino:

Are you accepting that you are already a failure?!

I have not shared my knowing that you would fail, whether you would pass or fail you don't know and it is up to you! I only asked you what would be your response if I failed you based on my knowledge that you would fail!

The ability to make your choice is given to you, this is besides the hidden knowledge that is with Allah (SWT), except you want to accept that you know that you are really a failure, your choices as with regards to the tests, will eventually determine your end. The evidences would be shown to you, and at that point you would have no excuses!

Allah is said to be omniscient and perfect with it that's main focus of the argument, me not knowing my future is part of my imperfection.

If I know you're someone with super-powers and can see the future, I will ask if I will fail or not before the exam.

The excuse God won't be having is did he know and planned everything?

Again, let's go back before Allah created everything, did he know and planned everything?

tintingz:
Allah is said to be omniscient and perfect with it that's main focus of the argument, me not knowing my future is part of my imperfection.

If I know you're someone with super-powers and can see the future, I will ask if I will fail or not before the exam.

The excuse God won't be having is did he know and planned everything?

Again, let's go back before Allah created everything, did he know and planned everything?

@bold, I would tell you that it is up to you, you have to take the exam for you to know the answer to your question! That is why there is an exam to begin with! You have been given the ability to pass or fail! It is your choice, choose wisely!

By the way, out of curiosity, what would even be your response if I told you that you would fail?!

Yes God Knows everything and planned everything, but gave you the rare opportunity to make your own choices! Your choices cannot be outside of God's plans, so if you are wise, you would make the right decisions and choices so as to make the best use of the opportunity given to you!

sino:


@bold, I would tell you that it is up to you, you have to take the exam for you to know the answer to your question! That is why there is an exam to begin with! You have been given the ability to pass or fail! It is your choice, choose wisely!

There's also an exam because the school does not know who will pass and who will fail, that's why exam is conducted.

By the way, out of curiosity, what would even be your response if I told you that you would fail?!

I will ask if that's my destiny written down?

Yes God Knows everything and planned everything, but gave you the rare opportunity to make your own choices! Your choices cannot be outside of God's plans, so if you are wise, you would make the right decisions and choices so as to make the best use of the opportunity given to you!

What a paradox!

God planned everything and knows everything, now tell me do i have a choice when God before creation have written all my life down in a book?

tintingz:
There's also an exam because the school does not know who will pass and who will fail, that's why exam is conducted.

I will ask if that's my destiny written down?

What a paradox!

God planned everything and knows everything, now tell me do i have a choice when God before creation have written all my life down in a book?

Lol, do you know what God had written down for you?! Why are you arguing about what you do not know?! And are your decisions/choices forced on you?! how and by who?!

sino:


Lol, do you know what God had written down for you?! Why are you arguing about what you do not know?! And are your decisions/choices forced on you?! how and by who?!

Not knowing what God has written down does not negate the idea ones life has been destined down.

Does my ignorant of what God has written down independent to the written down destiny?

If there's already a book that has my life, my choices, my end written down before I was born then everything I'm doing is not my freewill but what that has been written, I'm simply acting according to what has been programmed on me.

tintingz:
Not knowing what God has written down does not negate the idea ones life has been destined down.

Does my ignorant of what God has written down independent to the written down destiny?

If there's already a book that has my life, my choices, my end written down before I was born then everything I'm doing is not my freewill but what that has been written, I'm simply acting according to what has been programmed on me.

Except you want to deny your consciousness and your conscious and mindful ability to make decisions and choices, then you may claim not to have freewill. A book having all your life information and "destiny" doesn't take away your own conscious abilities, it is a lame excuse to be irresponsible, such reasoning invariably equates you and a goat, rather far worse, for the goat doesn't have such faculties has had been gifted to you! Part of which is the ability to reason and make informed decisions/choices!

But if it helps you feel better about your decision to become an atheist, then by all means, you are acting mindlessly, you actually do not know what you are doing, you do not reason or have any logical arguments for your choices, you have been programmed to choose this path, you are on a "highway to hell!"

sino:


Except you want to deny your consciousness and your conscious and mindful ability to make decisions and choices, then you may claim not to have freewill. A book having all your life information and "destiny" doesn't take away your own conscious abilities, it is a lame excuse to be irresponsible, such reasoning invariably equates you and a goat, rather far worse, for the goat doesn't have such faculties has had been gifted to you! Part of which is the ability to reason and make informed decisions/choices!

But if it helps you feel better about your decision to become an atheist, then by all means, you are acting mindlessly, you actually do not know what you are doing, you do not reason or have any logical arguments for your choices, you have been programmed to choose this path, you are on a "highway to hell!"

Lol, I'm not talking about behaving like a robot, what I'm saying is every detail of your life has been written down in a book, your CHOICES/FREEWILL has been written down already. You think you act freely on whatever you do but it has been written down already, you are like following a script till your destination.

If I'm able to get hold of the book of destiny and start reading your life to you, your next move, actions, choices, you will feel you're bound to that book and being controlled.

Now God Is said to be all-knowing and wrote this book of destiny long before you were created, you don't have freewill in this case, it's a paradox if otherwise!

As for your last paragraph, that's Strawman, I don't believe in destiny, how did you arrive at that ridiculous argument?