ABCthings:
The idea of the Trinity has been debated over and over again and therefore is not a loophole.

While the second point seem to be rather against Judaism.
Thanks.

Martinez39:
Judaism? Isn't it the same god?

Besides, the trinity makes no sense and is still a loophole.

UceeGod:
Not again

1. Christianity can never make any sense to anyone trying to comprehend it with the natural mind. That is why it's called FAITH - a function of the spirit.

2. Jewish religioun (Judaism) is different from Christianity even though they are both based on the same principle and the former points to the latter.

ABCthings:
I assumed you've read deut. and you decided to pick the ones that suit you arguments,but failed to ask yourself why we don't still offer all the sacrifices and feast there.

shakmati:
Op is an athiestic muslim apologist. Make I hear word. Judaism, Christainiy and Islam all originate from same source from the One True God. Take it or leave it.

Martinez39:
Lol. Jesus death supposedly did away with animal cruelty. No matter, it doesn't change the fact that your god was a despicable being in the past when he should have known better as an all knowing and kind god. As I asked, is it not still the same god?

ABCthings:
The integration of the answer to your question is to complex for your dumb head to comprehend.

Please go and read the book of Romans.

Martinez39:
I am an atheist. I despise Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Just stating why the sound muslim apologist always win his debate with any christian apologist.

shakmati:


In logical reasoning Islam is as flawed as Christianity and Judaism. Nobody wins any argument!

Martinez39:
Lol. The irony. Is it not the same god? Good bye, I won't pay your dishonest self any attention henceforth.

Martinez39:
Keep quiet my friend, is it not the same god?

Martinez39:
You seem not to understand my write up. Both are flawed but the muslim would defeat the christian because he has more superior ground.

Martinez39:
In a debate between a good muslim scholar/apologist who knows the bible and a good christian scholar/apologist who knows the quran, one always come out on top much to my chagrin . I would have thought that in a Christianity vs. Islam debate, the christian apologist/scholar would have an easy time blowing that muslim scholar/apologist away but the reverse is USUALLY the case. I asked how but as I observed further, it occurred to me that there were specific argumentation fortresses the muslim scholars/apologists kept using to unfailing come out on top. Here are these fortresses :

1) THE IDEA OF THE TRINITY
Though both gods(Allah and Yahweh) don't make sense but the idea of Allah makes more sense than the trinity and Jesus' death. The muslim apologists love to use this loophole. Why would god need to kill himself before he can forgive sins? Why doesn't he just forgive right away since he is the one doing the forgiving? Isn't he god? If Jesus is god, how can a god die(on the cross) ? Isn't that blasphemy? So Yahweh can die? The more the muslim apologist asks the more speechless the christian scholar becomes. Even when the christian scholar tries to give sense to the trinity, his arguments are always self-defeating. The muslim god comes out on top in this aspect since he wasn't petty in forgiving sins and he never died .

2) BOTH GODS ARE ALIKE : many christian sheeples would expect that the atrocities of Allah and his commandments that incite muslims to acts of violence and terrorism would be exploited by the christian apologist to floor the muslim apologist but it never happens. I always wondered why until I studied the bible. It turns out that both apologists know that their gods are alike and both deities are guilty of the same atrocities so the christian apologist can't call out the muslim god. Here are few examples of immorality of Yahweh :
(A) Deuteronomy 17: 2-5 : "if there is found among you, within any of your gates which the Lord your God gives you, a man or a woman who has been wicked in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing His covenant, who has gone & served other gods and worshiped them, either the sun or moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded,

"and its told to you, and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently. If it is true and certain that such an abomination has been committed in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has committed that wicked thing and shall stone to death that man or woman with stones."

Here we see the same intolerance towards unbelievers and the demand for their deaths by Yahweh. This is religious intolerance which is an abuse on human right. It involves the demonisation of other religious practices by branding it "a wicked thing." Imagine if Allah had said this, well he has done something similar . The christian scholar knows this and won't call out the intolerance and terror of the muslim god towards unbelievers because he knows that his god is equally guilty so both apologists remain silent on this issue leaving the christian apologist without that strong ground. Here is another example :
(B) Deuteronomy 17: 12 : "now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel".
Here, if you don't behave properly in front of a priest, God thinks it's right to kill you.

(C) Deuteronomy 13: 6- 10 : "if your brother, the son of your mother, YOUR SON OR DAUGHTER, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, 'let us go & serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth,

"you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hands of all the people. You shall stone him with stones until he dies because... "
Another religious intolerance and violence by Yahweh towards unbelievers by Yahweh. Note that it doesn't matter if it's your family or friend, you are commanded to kill them. Why? Because they served a different god and suggested you follow along. Imagine if Allah commanded this and muslims did it, they actually do it and Allah commanded it.

(D) Deuteronomy 13: 12- 15 : "if you hear someone in one of your cities, which you dwell in, saying, 'corrupt men have gone out from among you and enticed the habitants of the city saying,' let's go & serve other gods" -- which you have not known, then you shall inquire, search out, and ask diligently. If it is indeed true and certain that such abomination was committed among you, [b] you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it, all that is in it and it's livestock --- with the edge of the sword. "
Here, we can see a similarity between Yahweh and Allah. It's alright when you evangelise and convert others but it's wrong for others when they do so for other religions. Infact, you are to kill an entire city if people in your religion are being enticed by their religion. What a good god.

... to be continued.

Hahn, CAPSLOCKED, HopefulLandlord, JujuSugar, IAmSabrina, jesusjnr, Michellekabod1 or Michellekabod1, GreatResearcher, LordReed, johnydon22, dalaman, ranchhoddas, HellVictorinho

Martinez39:
Judaism? Isn't it the same god?

Besides, the trinity makes no sense and is still a loophole.

malvisguy212:
you ask this question.

" . The muslim apologists love to use this loophole. Why would god need to kill himself before he can forgive sins?"

please can you prove this ? were in the Bible it say God killed himself ?

Martinez39:
1) THE IDEA OF THE TRINITY
Though both gods(Allah and Yahweh) don't make sense but the idea of Allah makes more sense than the trinity and Jesus' death. The muslim apologists love to use this loophole. Why would god need to kill himself before he can forgive sins? Why doesn't he just forgive right away since he is the one doing the forgiving? Isn't he god? If Jesus is god, how can a god die(on the cross) ? Isn't that blasphemy? So Yahweh can die? The more the muslim apologist asks the more speechless the christian scholar becomes. Even when the christian scholar tries to give sense to the trinity, his arguments are always self-defeating. The muslim god comes out on top in this aspect since he wasn't petty in forgiving sins and he never died .

Martinez39:
2) BOTH GODS ARE ALIKE : many christian sheeples would expect that the atrocities of Allah and his commandments that incite muslims to acts of violence and terrorism would be exploited by the christian apologist to floor the muslim apologist but it never happens. I always wondered why until I studied the bible. It turns out that both apologists know that their gods are alike and both deities are guilty of the same atrocities so the christian apologist can't call out the muslim god. Here are few examples of immorality of Yahweh :
(A) Deuteronomy 17: 2-5 : "if there is found among you, within any of your gates which the Lord your God gives you, a man or a woman who has been wicked in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing His covenant, who has gone & served other gods and worshiped them, either the sun or moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded,

"and its told to you, and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently. If it is true and certain that such an abomination has been committed in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has committed that wicked thing and shall stone to death that man or woman with stones."

Here we see the same intolerance towards unbelievers and the demand for their deaths by Yahweh. This is religious intolerance which is an abuse on human right. It involves the demonisation of other religious practices by branding it "a wicked thing." Imagine if Allah had said this, well he has done something similar . The christian scholar knows this and won't call out the intolerance and terror of the muslim god towards unbelievers because he knows that his god is equally guilty so both apologists remain silent on this issue leaving the christian apologist without that strong ground. Here is another example :
(B) Deuteronomy 17: 12 : "now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel".
Here, if you don't behave properly in front of a priest, God thinks it's right to kill you.

(C) Deuteronomy 13: 6- 10 : "if your brother, the son of your mother, YOUR SON OR DAUGHTER, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, 'let us go & serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth,

"you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hands of all the people. You shall stone him with stones until he dies because... "
Another religious intolerance and violence by Yahweh towards unbelievers by Yahweh. Note that it doesn't matter if it's your family or friend, you are commanded to kill them. Why? Because they served a different god and suggested you follow along. Imagine if Allah commanded this and muslims did it, they actually do it and Allah commanded it.

(D) Deuteronomy 13: 12- 15 : "if you hear someone in one of your cities, which you dwell in, saying, 'corrupt men have gone out from among you and enticed the habitants of the city saying,' let's go & serve other gods" -- which you have not known, then you shall inquire, search out, and ask diligently. If it is indeed true and certain that such abomination was committed among you, [b] you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it, all that is in it and it's livestock --- with the edge of the sword. "
Here, we can see a similarity between Yahweh and Allah. It's alright when you evangelise and convert others but it's wrong for others when they do so for other religions. Infact, you are to kill an entire city if people in your religion are being enticed by their religion. What a good god.

... to be continued.

Martinez39:
... Continued

from the aforementioned verses, it's clear that both gods are alike, both apologists know that and wouldn't call each other out because condemning your opponent means you are condemning yourself. Hence the keep silent and focus on other things during their debates. Such verses were probably justifications and incitement of wars fought by christians many years ago. The fact that christians are now peaceful doesn't change what's written in holy books. You can also see that Yahweh is immoral and a monster by considering his cruel pettiness towards Job ( Book of Job ); how he killed a man for trying to support the falling ark ( 2 Sam. 6: 6- 7 ); how he condoned slavery both in the old and new testament; how he ordered cities including children to be killed etc. Do you know that in Deut. 22: 28- 29, Yahweh ordered rape victims to marry their rape victims?

Martinez39:
3) MUHAMMAD EXISTED BUT JESUS DIDN'T : this is a solid fact. If Jesus never existed on earth, then christianity is false. Though the existence of Muhammad doesn't prove that he is a divine but since the christian apologist would like to think that the mere existence of Jesus proves the "truths" of christianity then the muslim apologists will have the freedom to do the same. If the christian demands any proof, the muslim apologist will demand similar proof. They both have no proof except that the muslim apologist has the historical evidence of Muhammad hence the upper hand for him. The quran believes Jesus was a prophet and since a slight proof(that of Muhammad) is on the Muslim's side, his description of Jesus as a prophet should (as he thinks) take the upper hand. Besides, why would a messiah and saviour walk the earth and leave no evidence? Sounds absurd.

... to be continued. I will fill up the space, I need to rest.

Ihedinobi3:

We'll take your questions one at a time.

i) Why would god need to kill himself before he can forgive sins?
This is a straw man. The Bible does not teach this at all.

The Bible teaches that God cannot die but that only He can save the sinful human race, which is otherwise doomed for its sin.

In order to save the human race, God put on human flesh so that with it He could pay the price for sin. Only a human being can pay for human sins and God can't die. So, the Lord God humbled Himself to take on humanity and suffer and die with it.

The Death that bought forgiveness of sins for us was also not physical. It was spiritual. The Lord Jesus submitted Himself to three hours of agonizing spiritual Death when He was separated from spiritual fellowship with His Father and suffered the darkness, fire and bitterness of the Second Death to a degree that only God in human flesh can.

After those three hours, the Lord Jesus breathed out His human spirit to die physically. His Deity never died. Nor did He kill Himself. He suffered the full Anger of God the Father against sin in His Spiritual Death, yes, and He did yield up His human spirit in physical death too, but He did not kill Himself.

ii) Why doesn't he just forgive right away since he is the one doing the forgiving? Isn't he god?
There is an easy way to consider this. Every nation or human community has a legal system. In these legal systems, offences are spelt out with due consequences for them. Why is that done? Why do we not just forgive offences rather than punish them?

Obviously, it isn't justice at all to just forgive offences. If you do that, then why should anyone bother to keep the law? We would all break the law wherever there is no punishment for doing so. In societies where offences are not adequately and resolutely punished, the weak suffer and all manner of chaos and damage occurs.

This is the reason why God punishes sin. Forgiveness must be bought with atonement. If nobody suffers for the sins that we commit, then God is unjust to forgive us. If God is unjust, how can anyone trust His Authority? But God cannot be unjust. Therefore, He demands atonement in order to forgive sinners.

iii) If Jesus is god, how can a god die(on the cross) ? Isn't that blasphemy? So Yahweh can die?
As (i) above showed, God cannot die and did not die on the Cross. It was the human nature of the Lord Jesus that suffered both His Spiritual Death and His Physical Death on the Cross. His Deity did not suffer either.

As for the Trinity, God is One, but the Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit. The Father is God the same as the Son and the Holy Spirit individually are too. But they are together One God, not three.



Nobody (well, except the weird Millennial generation) complains that nations have legal systems. That there is a code of conduct complete with rewards and consequences to protect the character of the community or nation is not only taken for granted but actually demanded for by human beings. Why is this a problem when God is constituting a special nation for Himself?

Israel was God's Project. The Pentateuch (Genesis to Deuteronomy) describes His creation of that nation and the character it was supposed to have. What we read there are the laws that were to govern that nation.

The character of that nation was supposed to be God-fearing. They were supposed to be the one nation on earth where everybody served the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the biological progenitors of the people themselves. This is just the same as America characterizing herself as the land of the free and the home of the brave. The laws were therefore written around that character. Idolatry was against the law and punishable by death. The reason was that God Himself was the King of Israel and idolatry was treason. This also means that any seduction by anybody of others into idolatry was conspiracy to commit treason and was thus also punishable by death.

Every other issue about Israel's laws is to be understood the same way.

In Islam, on the other hand, Allah was not building a nation that was meant to be unique. He was merely terrorising the whole world, or more correctly, being used as an excuse by Muhammad to pursue his totalitarian plans and expansionist agenda.

You can easily see both that Israel never really pursued the empire route although, at least, under David and Solomon they had both the military and economic might to do so (Israel's authorized wars were fought for defence and to protect the nation from Gentile religious contamination), and that when the Church was called out, the Gentile believers were not forced into a homogeneous pattern of behavior or given an expansionist agenda to subdue unbelief everywhere.

Martinez39:
Having seen your long endless illogical back and forth arguments with IAmSabrina, I think it's best for my sanity to not engage you. Bye

Martinez39:
Having seen your long endless illogical back and forth arguments with IAmSabrina, I think it's best for my sanity to not engage you. Bye

LordReed:


Ok so Jesus is not the god then? So the Bible lied when it said the word was god? The same word that was made flesh?

Horiolah:


Dude said God can't DIE. He then said, "God took on human flesh to suffer and DIE".

Horiolah:


Dude said God can't DIE. He then said, "God took on human flesh to suffer and DIE".