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vybzkartel:
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Regarding

"At what time was Lucifer cast down to Earth?"

This event will happen at the midpoint of the Tribulation (Revelation 12:9), three and a half years before the Return of the Lord Jesus to resurrect the Church, vanquish Satan, restore the Earth, and begin His Thousand-year reign over the whole world.

The consignment of Satan and all his fellow rebel angels to the Earth will result in the three-and-a-half-year global persecution of believers, leading ultimately to the gathering of all human armies to Israel to destroy the nation once and for all.

Ihedinobi3:

Regarding

"At what time was Lucifer cast down to Earth?"

This event will happen at the midpoint of the Tribulation (Revelation 12:9), three and a half years before the Return of the Lord Jesus to resurrect the Church, vanquish Satan, restore the Earth, and begin His Thousand-year reign over the whole world.

The consignment of Satan and all his fellow rebel angels to the Earth will result in the three-and-a-half-year global persecution of believers, leading ultimately to the gathering of all human armies to Israel to destroy the nation once and for all.

Why then did Jesus say he saw Lucifer cast down like lightening?

Ihedinobi3:

Regarding

"At what time was Lucifer cast down to Earth?"

This event will happen at the midpoint of the Tribulation (Revelation 12:9), three and a half years before the Return of the Lord Jesus to resurrect the Church, vanquish Satan, restore the Earth, and begin His Thousand-year reign over the whole world.

The consignment of Satan and all his fellow rebel angels to the Earth will result in the three-and-a-half-year global persecution of believers, leading ultimately to the gathering of all human armies to Israel to destroy the nation once and for all.

I was going to say 3:37 on a sunny Friday afternoon, but you got in first I see.

Some people, lol!

Before the re-creation of earth in Gen1:2

ichuka:
Before the re-creation of earth in Gen1:2

The earth was recreated?

vybzkartel:



Why then did Jesus say he saw Lucifer cast down like lightening?

Our Lord was a prophet, nay, THE Prophet, the One that Moses prophesied about in Deuteronomy 18:15-19. So He spoke just like a prophet would. If you read the prophets, you will see that a lot of prophecies were given in the perfect tense, like they had already happened. This is because whatever God has decreed is as good as done. It will not fail.

Preciousgirl:


The earth was recreated?

Lol!

Preciousgirl:


The earth was recreated?

Yes.
God has already created the heavens and earth in Gen1:1.
Then something happened to the earth that was created in the begining to become void,shapeless and filled with darkness.
Recreation started in Gen1:3

Preciousgirl:


The earth was recreated?

Although I disagree with his answer, yes, the earth was recreated.

The Lord destroyed the perfect Universe He created with a universal flood after Satan and his fellow rebels fouled it up with their rebellion. That was what verse 2 of Genesis 1 was about.

The six days of creation were actually six days of re-creation, and God did it in the number of days that He did so that He would leave a witness to human believers of His Divine Schedule. Each day stands for a thousand years of human history. The seventh day of God's Rest stands for the Millennial Reign of the Lord Jesus, at the end of which this creation will be destroyed with fire, and the Lord Jesus will bring in eternity after His White Throne Judgment of Millennial Believers and all unbelievers. That is why Isaiah 9:6 calls Him the Father of Eternity (not 'Eternal Father', as several translations wrongly translate).

Ihedinobi3:

Although I disagree with his answer, yes, the earth was recreated.

The Lord destroyed the perfect Universe He created with a universal flood after Satan and his fellow rebels fouled it up with their rebellion. That was what verse 2 of Genesis 1 was about.

There is a reason why you disagree, and it's because you know very well that it is not true!

Did God destroy the perfect universe, or just one tiny bit of it called earth, according to Genesis 2:1?

Even that earth God may have destroyed cannot be all of it. I just don't think God can be so wasteful.

budaatum:

There is a reason why you disagree, and it's because you know very well that it is not true!

Did God destroy the perfect universe, or just one tiny bit of it called earth, according to Genesis 2:1?

Even that earth God may have destroyed cannot be all of it. I just don't think God can be so wasteful.

I stand with the Bible. It says that the earth was a complete ruin.

The universe was not exempt, because the earth was representative of it, being God's Seat of Power. The original Universe was full of light with no darkness at all, for example. I think it is obvious that this one we live in is not that way at all.

Ihedinobi3:

I stand with the Bible. It says that the earth was a complete ruin.

The universe was not exempt, because the earth was representative of it, being God's Seat of Power. The original Universe was full of light with no darkness at all, for example. I think it is obvious that this one we live in is not that way at all.

Well, my Bible at Genesis 2:1 says "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them", so I see no reason to assume God destroyed the "heavens" and "the host of them" along with the earth, and that's even if I were to allow that verse to imply "the earth was a complete ruin", as you claim. It does not imply anything of the sort to me!

Besides, if God were going to destroy all that God created because of some unruly sinful angels I see no reason why that same God would not have destroyed the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned.

budaatum:

Well, my Bible at Genesis 2:1 says "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them", so I see no reason to assume God destroyed the "heavens" and "the host of them" along with the earth, and that's even if I were to allow that verse to imply "the earth was a complete ruin", as you claim. It does not imply anything of the sort to me!

Besides, if God were going to destroy all that God created because of some unruly sinful angels I see no reason why that same God would not have destroyed the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned.

[2]The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
Genesis 1:2 NASB

The words translated "formless" and "void" can also be translated "a chaos" and "ruined".

As for the heavens, they were obviously reconstructed too, just as your quote said.

I am not going to discuss further with you if you intend to carry on with your Bible-editing habits.

Ihedinobi3:

[2]The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
Genesis 1:2 NASB

The words translated "formless" and "void" can also be translated "a chaos" and "ruined".

As for the heavens, they were obviously reconstructed too, just as your quote said.

I am not going to discuss further with you if you intend to carry on with your Bible-editing habits.

First, I do not need your permission to go on with anything, nor do you need to "discuss further with" me if you don't want to. To be honest, I am not "discussing with you" either, just that this is a public forum with thousands of people and it's just likely some might wish to hear what I have to say. You might want to be cautious with your "Bible-editing habits" least you be judged by the measure with which you judge others.

That said, "Formless" and "void", and "chaos" for that matter, do not in any way mean "ruined".

budaatum:

First, I do not need your permission to go on with anything, nor do you need to "discuss further with" me if you don't want to. To be honest, I am not "discussing with you" either, just that this is a public forum with thousands of people and it's just likely some might wish to hear what I have to say. You might want to be cautious with your "Bible-editing habits" least you be judged by the measure with which you judge others.

That said, "Formless" and "void", and "chaos", for that matter, does not in anyway mean "ruined".

Budaatum, I am not sure what you want me to say to you, but you and I are not the same or of a feather. My attitude to the Bible is different from yours. I don't tell the Bible what to say, as apparently you like to do. So, we will never quite see eye to eye on biblical matters.

As far as this particular subject we're discussing goes, "tohu wa bhohu" is a phrase that means "in a chaotic ruin" or, literally "ruined and a chaos". The Bible was not written in English.

Ihedinobi3:

Budaatum, I am not sure what you want me to say to you, but you and I are not the same or of a feather. My attitude to the Bible is different from yours. I don't tell the Bible what to say, as apparently you like to do. So, we will never quite see eye to eye on biblical matters.

As far as this particular subject we're discussing goes, "tohu wa bhohu" is a phrase that means "in a chaotic ruin" or, literally "ruined and a chaos". The Bible was not written in English.

You do not have to say anything to me! Nor do I care about your feathers! Just face the facts, and desist, if you can, with your "don't tell the Bible what to do", while that is precisely what you are doing on a public forum where, if I see you do it, I, will, respond with the facts so as not to allow you to lead those who may happen on what you have written and be led astray!

Now.

Tohu wa-bohu (תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ), is a Biblical Hebrew phrase found in the Genesis creation narrative (Genesis 1:2) that describes the condition of the earth as "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, and immediately precedes the creation of light in Genesis 1:3 where it is written, And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

You may chose to believe what you may, but nowhere does it say "God created the earth and ruined it!" And if you insist, then show me where it is said so that my error may be corrected and I, your neighbour, do not end up in hell!

budaatum:

You do not have to say anything to me! Nor do I care about your feathers! Just face the facts, and desist, if you can, with your "don't tell the Bible what to do", while that is precisely what you are doing on a public forum where, if I see you do it, I, will, respond with the facts so as not to allow you to lead those who may happen on what you have written and be led astray!

Now.

Tohu wa-bohu (תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ), is a Biblical Hebrew phrase found in the Genesis creation narrative (Genesis 1:2) that describes the condition of the earth as "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, and immediately precedes the creation of light in Genesis 1:3 where it is written, And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

You may chose to believe what you may, but nowhere does it say "God created the earth and ruined it!" And if you insist, then show me where it is said so that my error may be corrected and I, your neighbour, do not end up in hell!

To begin with, you were an atheist until several weeks ago when you decided to "take on religion". Ever since you did, you have made it a habit to say that the Bible does not really mean what it says. With such blatant dishonesty, why do you keep bothering to have a conversation about the Bible with me? What are you hoping to accomplish by doing so?

How can the Bible say explicitly that the earth became a chaotic ruin and you argue that it didn't? What are you teaching? The Bible or your own fantasies? You think God cannot be so wasteful because you wouldn't destroy the entire Earth, much less the universe, if it was you? Who cares what your standards are? If you consider it wasteful to destroy the universe because of the rebellion of a third of the angels, forget what the Bible says and go write your own Scriptures. Why pretend that you are interested in anything it has to say?

As for teaching you anything about the Bible, that would be a grand waste of my time and energy. You and I have discussed several times in the past, and I cannot believe that you have anything in you that has any desire at all to hear what the Bible actually says. Go on and keep making your own truth up, I'm not stopping you. But it would really serve you to leave me out of it. You and I are not of a kind.

Ihedinobi3:

How can the Bible say explicitly that the earth became a chaotic ruin and you argue that it didn't?

Simply because the Bible does not say explicitly or in any other way that the earth became a chaotic ruin, and neither have you shown how you have come to conclude it does after saying it does on a public forum!

Do note that if you had said this in the privacy of your home, buda will not come into your house and challenge you about it. You said it on a public forum so, here we are.

budaatum:

Simply because the Bible does not say explicitly or in any other way that the earth became a chaotic ruin, and neither have you shown how you have come to conclude it does after saying it does on a public forum!

Do note that if you had said this in the privacy of your home, buda will not come into your house and challenge you about it. You said it on a public forum so, here we are.

You are quite a person. I just quoted one version of the Bible that actually says that using synonyms, even if weaker ones, yet you can say that it did not say such a thing.

The translation of tohu wa bhohu is better as "a chaotic ruin", but even "formless and void" depicts a chaos and a wasteland. How on earth is this not obvious to you?

No matter. I will not discuss this any further with you. I don't much care for your dishonesty, and I am not worried about anyone who reads this exchange. The Truth stands clear and brilliant. You can try to confuse issues as much as you like, but anyone who loves the Truth will at the very least ask questions before swallowing your wicked lies.

Preciousgirl:


The earth was recreated?

Yep

Ihedinobi3:

The translation of tohu wa bhohu is better as "a chaotic ruin"...

"Better" according to you. And I have no beef with you defining words as you wish, or, to use your words, "tell the Bible what to do". However, nowhere is it implied in the text we both have access to that tohu wa bhohu which translates to "without form, and void" means "ruined"! And if it somewhere does, please kindly show me so that I not be led astray or inadvertently lead others astray, if you care to, that is.

vybzkartel:
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Sometimes around 1914!
Jesus said if he begins ruling in heaven there will be trouble on earth! Matthew 24:3-24
It's obvious that this happen around 1914 because Revelations 12:7-12 said when Michael drives away Satan and demons from heaven, the earth will feel their presence!
(1) Jesus cleanse heaven so that His corulers can have peaceful places to stay! John 14:1-4
(2) Satan and demons locate earth where they could have intelligent creatures to deal with! Rev 12:12
(3) Satan and demons possessed many earthly rulers and they all became arrogant, full of ego! Rev 16:14
(4) World war began due to the self esteem of worldly rulers trying to show their might! Matthew 24:7
(5) Farmers and farmlands were destroyed so famine began! Matthew 24:7
(6) Pestilences broke out due to dead bodies and most were malnourished! Luke 21:11
(7) Then Satan and demons changed strategies as if to provide solace, they possessed humans giving them powers to perform great signs! Matthew 24:11, Revelations 16:13-14
(8} Satan changed the orientation of many from providing logical solutions making them victims of Pastors{Satan's agents} for FALSE prayers/worships!
(9) Due to all the disgusting things done by Satan's agents in the name of God, most people lost interest in Sacred matters! Matthew 24:12
Today, we're already in the middle of the tribulations and it will soon end but sincere and honesthearted individuals need to IDENTIFY true Christians and join them to know what's next!
Because all these is just to distract people from knowing that Jesus is soon coming to establish His kingdom on earth, His real followers are zealously preaching are teaching people freely about Jesus' coming government, while Satan's agents [claiming Christians] are blocking people from listening to the TRUTH that true Christians are bringing to their homes!
Whoever fails to listen and learn about Jesus' government from His TRUE followers will be destroyed when Jesus returns to establish His government! Matthew 24:14

Ihedinobi3:

Our Lord was a prophet, nay, THE Prophet, the One that Moses prophesied about in Deuteronomy 18:15-19. So He spoke just like a prophet would. If you read the prophets, you will see that a lot of prophecies were given in the perfect tense, like they had already happened. This is because whatever God has decreed is as good as done. It will not fail.

you get it wrong ! that words about falling of Satan like lightening was not a prophecy but is a metaphorical statement describing how Satan power was disgraced from the highest order to the point of powerlessness and trampling of Satan's power under the feet of the disciples.

budaatum:

"Better" according to you. And I have no beef with you defining words as you wish, or, to use your words, "tell the Bible what to do". However, nowhere is it implied in the text we both have access to that tohu wa bhohu which translates to "without form, and void" mean "ruined"! And if it somewhere does, please kindly show me so that I not be led astray or inadvertently lead others astray, if you care to, that is.

let's bring these two things formless and void : before something will be formless then it means something is in existence but without a shape because inexistence thing can't have a certain description .now let's look 'void" meaning an empty space occupied by nothing this is showing that there is space , logically the words formless and void will tell us that something is in existence before. remember how water was created was unknown in the bible . I think from That 1genesis 1 verse to 2, I think the earth was recreated from destruction.

jcross19:
you get it wrong ! that words about falling of Satan like lightening was not a prophecy but is a metaphorical statement describing how Satan power was disgraced from the highest order to the point of powerlessness and trampling of Satan's power under the feet of the disciples.

Well, I don't quite agree with you. I stand by what I said before. It is not possible, in my thinking, to reconcile Revelation 12 to anything the disciples did at that time. And Satan could not have been cast out of heaven twice.

jcross19:
, logically the words formless and void will tell us that something is in existence before..

Please explain how

Formless - without a clear or definite shape or structure

And

Void - completely empty

Logically "tell us that something is in existence before",

And it was

Ruined - having been irreparably damaged or harmed.

Ihedinobi3:

Well, I don't quite agree with you. I stand by what I said before. It is not possible, in my thinking, to reconcile Revelation 12 to anything the disciples did at that time. And Satan could not have been cast out of heaven twice.

read the book of job 1 vs 6-9 then you will understand more and Ezekiel 28 vs13 to 17. you will understand more .

jcross19:
read the book of job 1 vs 6-9 then you will understand more and Ezekiel 28 vs13 to 17. you will understand more .

[6]Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
[7]The Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
[8]The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
[9]Then Satan answered the Lord, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
Job 1:6-9 NASB

[13]"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
[14]"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
[15]"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
[16]"By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.
[17]"Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.
Ezekiel 28:13-17 NASB

I am not sure what your point about the Job passage may be, but the Ezekiel passage should also mean that Satan had already been cast down by the time that Ezekiel wrote that bit, if your position is correct. That would make it at least two times that Satan was cast down. And why would that be? Is Satan able to take back a place in Heaven by force after he has been cast down? Revelation 12 teaches that he is not, so it makes no sense to think that he should need to be cast down more than once.

As I said, I stand by what I said earlier. Satan will be thrown out of Heaven and he and his forces will be restricted to the Earth only at the midpoint of the Tribulation three and a half years before the Lord Jesus returns to resurrect the Church, vanquish all forces of evil on earth, restore the Earth, and begin His Thousand-Year Reign over it. I see no biblical reason to believe anything different.

Ihedinobi3:

[6]Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
[7]The Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
[8]The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
[9]Then Satan answered the Lord, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
Job 1:6-9 NASB

[13]"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
[14]"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
[15]"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
[16]"By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.
[17]"Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.
Ezekiel 28:13-17 NASB

I am not sure what your point about the Job passage may be, but the Ezekiel passage should also mean that Satan had already been cast down by the time that Ezekiel wrote that bit, if your position is correct. That would make it at least two times that Satan was cast down. And why would that be? Is Satan able to take back a place in Heaven by force after he has been cast down? Revelation 12 teaches that he is not, so it makes no sense to think that he should need to be cast down more than once.

As I said, I stand by what I said earlier. Satan will be thrown out of Heaven and he and his forces will be restricted to the Earth only at the midpoint of the Tribulation three and a half years before the Lord Jesus returns to resurrect the Church, vanquish all forces of evil on earth, restore the Earth, and begin His Thousand-Year Reign over it. I see no biblical reason to believe anything different.

now in the book of job 1vs 2-9 or so the context of the verses is that Satan have lost his place in heaven is just a vagabond, in that verse he was only one at out other sons of God that God asked "where have you been?" meaning he was missing in heaven or in his position. now in the book of Ezekiel 28vs 13 to 17 its clear how Satan was demoted and that shows satan has been casted down if we should look at that revelation again is still the same mind you revelation can be present, past or future.

Ihedinobi3:

[6]Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
[7]The Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
[8]The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
[9]Then Satan answered the Lord, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
Job 1:6-9 NASB

[13]"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
[14]"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
[15]"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
[16]"By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.
[17]"Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.
Ezekiel 28:13-17 NASB

I am not sure what your point about the Job passage may be, but the Ezekiel passage should also mean that Satan had already been cast down by the time that Ezekiel wrote that bit, if your position is correct. That would make it at least two times that Satan was cast down. And why would that be? Is Satan able to take back a place in Heaven by force after he has been cast down? Revelation 12 teaches that he is not, so it makes no sense to think that he should need to be cast down more than once.

As I said, I stand by what I said earlier. Satan will be thrown out of Heaven and he and his forces will be restricted to the Earth only at the midpoint of the Tribulation three and a half years before the Lord Jesus returns to resurrect the Church, vanquish all forces of evil on earth, restore the Earth, and begin His Thousand-Year Reign over it. I see no biblicalq reason to believe anything different.

now in revelation 12 vs 4 says with his tail he DRAGGED a third of the stars out of sky and THREW them down to the earth. now look at this two words dragged and threw are in past tense meaning the event have taken place in the past. now the word "his tail" mean he 'deceived' , stars in the sentence mean the host of heavens, mighty of heavenly beings.

jcross19:
now in the book of job 1vs 2-9 or so the context of the verses is that Satan have lost his place in heaven is just a vagabond, in that verse he was only one at out other sons of God that God asked "where have you been?" meaning he was missing in heaven or in his position. now in the book of Ezekiel 28vs 13 to 17 its clear how Satan was demoted and that shows satan has been casted down if we should look at that revelation again is still the same mind you revelation can be present, past or future.

If Satan had lost his place in Heaven, how could he then still appear before God? After he was thrown down from Heaven, in Revelation 12 it is said that he had been accusing the saints until he was cast down (see verse 10) implying that he could no longer accuse anyone. In Job 1 and 2, clearly, he was accusing Job to God. How was that possible if Revelation 12:10 is true?

As for Ezekiel 28, there is no question that we have Satan's rebellion detailed there along with his ultimate fate. But I don't see how it talks about Satan being cast down when the disciples went out on their mission. As I said, if Satan had already be cast down in Job and Ezekiel, how come he is still cast down again in the gospels? How many times was he cast down? And how many times does he need to be cast down?

It makes the most sense to receive the Bible as saying that his casting down is a certainty even though it is yet future.