Saying the rosary and praying to Mary I pure idolatry.

Saying the rosary and praying to Mary I pure idolatry.

but worshipping pastor chris is impure idolatary

chukwudi44:

but worshipping pastor chris is impure idolatary

Nonsense, does anyone pray to pastor chris? answer your query , don't try to deviate from Maria . Show me biblically, where this rosary and image worship comes from. Maybe you are right , but prove it scripturally.

Nonsense, does anyone pray to pastor chris?

When People leave their homes for the so-caled healing school of pastor chris ,what is i called.

Prayer basicaly means supplication,the bible encourages us to pray for one another and that is what the catholic church has been practising since the first century.We catholics beleive in the communion of saints i.e in communications between those already in heaven and those still on earth.That is why we ask the people already in heaven to pray for us the same way protestants ask their pastors to pray for them .Can you tell me what is adulterous in that.

In the book of revelations 5:8

Revelation 5:8 (New International Version)
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

From the above passage you can see that the prayers of God Peoples ascended to Jesus through the living creatures


Revelation 8:4 (New International Version)
4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand

Show me biblically, where this rosary and image worship comes from.

Sorry catholics don' worship rosary nor images

chukwudi44:

Prayer basicaly means supplication,the bible encourages us to pray for one another and that is what the catholic church has been practising since the first century.We catholics beleive in the communion of saints i.e in communications between those already in heaven and those still on earth.

How scriptural is it to pray to dead saints to pray for you. You tell me. They have no dealings with the living.

1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is---- only one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

That is why we ask the people already in heaven to pray for us the same way protestants ask their pastors to pray for them .Can you tell me what is adulterous in that.

We don't pray to pastors. Like you pray to Mary. The dead saints has no dealings with living men. The saints on earth can pray for one another because of the anointing of the holyghost, but the saints in heaven don't have the holyghost with them. They only wait and watch us.

Revelation 5:8 (New International Version)
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.
From the above passage you can see that the prayers of God Peoples ascended to Jesus through the living creatures

The living creatures are not dead saints but angelic beings.

Sorry catholics don' worship rosary nor images

Well I don't really want to criticise your religion , but  any object that is unscritural is idolatry . From images of so called saints o, to chaplets and amulets.

We don't pray to pastors. Like you pray to Mary. The dead saints has no dealings with living men. The saints on earth can pray for one another because of the anointing of the holyghost, but the saints in heaven don't have the holyghost with them. They only wait and watch us.

Pastor Agbaje are you sure you are alright ?that people in heaven do not have the holy spirit with them.

If God is not in heaven I wonder who we are going to see.


Sorry the saints in heaven have always prayed for the ones on earth.God has continued to work miracle throuh the posthumous intercession of his saints.

in 2 macabee 15:12 we see the holy prophet Jeremiah praying for the jewish nation in heaven not top forget the story of Elisha posthumusly raising a man from the dead.

1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is---- only one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

To whom do you think the saints pray through to God ?

what makes you think they don't push their prayers through Jesus.

The saints pray for us the same way Pastor chris prays for his members

The living creatures are not dead saints but angelic beings.

Jesus told us plainly that when the righteous rise to life in heaven they ould be like angels


luke 20:34-38


34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a] 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Well I don't really want to criticise your religion , but any object that is unscritural is idolatry . From images of so called saints o, to chaplets and amulets

Which means that unscriptural images of pastor chris hanging in CE parishes are idolatarous[b][/b].

chukwudi44:

Pastor Agbaje are you sure you are alright ?that people in heaven do not have the holy spirit with them.
If God is not in heaven I wonder who we are going to see.

The holyspirit is not in heaven. But in us on the earth. Check the scriptures.

Sorry the saints in heaven have always prayed for the ones on earth.God has continued to work miracle throuh the posthumous intercession of his saints.
in 2 macabee 15:12 we see the holy prophet Jeremiah praying for the jewish nation in heaven not top forget the story of Elisha posthumusly raising a man from the dead.
To whom do you think the saints pray through to God ?

You are quoting books that were not inspired of God. Let's quote the canonised scriptures let's start from the known where we have common ground.

[ quote]what makes you think they don't push their prayers through Jesus.

[/quote]

Have you heard dead saints pray before . Let's leave out fairy tales.

The saints pray for us the same way Pastor chris prays for his members

Any Christian can pray for any Christian , either you're a pastor or not. Intercession for one another is part of the church responsibilities

[quote]Jesus told us plainly that when the righteous rise to life in heaven they ould be like angels

That's only in reference to fleshly desire. In heaven there will be no female nor children.

Which means that unscriptural images of pastor chris hanging in CE parishes are idolatarous[b][/b].

There is no such thing. Na you people dye hang foto for prayer.

The holyspirit is not in heaven. But in us on the earth. Check the scriptures.

This is heresy.Do You know that the holy spirit is God.

You are quoting books that were not inspired of God. Let's quote the canonised scriptures let's start from the known where we have common ground

Sorry the book I quoted was both inspired and canonised .I would do not subscribe to the decisions of the jewish council of jamnia which did not even recognise Jesus or any of the new testament books.

Have you heard dead saints pray before

I ve seen,experienced and read about miracles wrought by the intercession of saints.

That's only in reference to fleshly desire. In heaven there will be no female nor children

This is your own personal interpretaion ,it does not have any logical or scriptural basis.

Let's leave out fairy tales

Are you refering to your atmosphere for 'miracles'

There is no such thing. Na you people dye hang foto for prayer

Do you mean to tell me that pastor chris images hanging in CEC Plc parishes and bill boards are fake

Agbaje when you say the Holy Spirit is not in heaven but on earth i see your depth and wholenes of your christian understanding and i baffle; when you say dead saints, do you think humans die, that for the fact that your soul leaves your body it can not do a thing?, it can not worhsip God like the cherubus that cry Holy, Holy, Holy since all eternity?

The reason i believe in the Catholic Faith is in its logic and wholesomeness; for the fact some catholics get it wrong does not mean the faith itself is false;

i used to feel like this praying to Mary thing is a unwholesome and wasteful venture until i saw the logic in the miracle at the wedding at cana; Jesus clearly did not want to work the miracle that why he dclared that my time has not yet come but Mary who knew his son could deny him nothing told the servants do whatever he tells you at the end of the day they had the best wine.

Over the years i have a deeper love for God becos of his self revelation of the deprth of his love by taking human flesh just to be close to me; ironically Mary does not lesson my worship or love for Jesus cos she tells me to do whatever he tells you she obtains for me through her prayers the graces which only the mother of God can obtain remember that the prayers of a rightoeus man availeth much.

thanks poster and chukudi for efforts!

@49cents

49cents:

Agbaje when you say the Holy Spirit is not in heaven but on earth i see your depth and wholenes of your christian understanding and i baffle;

The holy spirit answers to the name of jesus. Angels and saints in heaven don't need the holy spirit . Jesus sent him to the church. He is here to perfect the church, and work through the church until he's talken out of the way at the rapture of the church.

when you say dead saints, do you think humans die, that for the fact that your soul leaves your body it can not do a thing?, it can not worhsip God like the cherubus that cry Holy, Holy, Holy since all eternity?

I agree that their spirit lives on before God. Bit they have no influence in the affairs on the earth.

i used to feel like this praying to Mary thing is a unwholesome and wasteful venture until i saw the logic in the miracle at the wedding at cana; Jesus clearly did not want to work the miracle that why he dclared that my time has not yet come but Mary who knew his son could deny him nothing told the servants do whatever he tells you at the end of the day they had the best wine.

Jesus is no longer son of Mary . But the lord of Mary, Mary was only privilege to be used by God as a vessel to bring forth his son. Mary had to believe in Jesus and received the holyghost with the. Evidence of speaking in tongues. If Mary had not received Jesus as her lorrd , she would have gone to hell!

Jesus was not bound to obey her at the wedding. He had refused her other times.

Matthew 12:46-50
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you. ”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers? ” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother. ”
[quote][/quote]

Jesus is no longer son of Mary .

Jesus will always remain the son of Mary for enternity and nothing will ever change that.

The analogy of the vessel does to apply to the case of the conception of Jesus in the womb of Jesus since he did not just pass through Mary but took his flesh and blood from her.

Jesus christ has two natures (fully God and fully Man)as plainly stated by the council of Chalcedon in 451 CE.While the God in him has always existed from the begining,the human nature originated from Mary.

I agree that their spirit lives on before God. Bit they have no influence in the affairs on the earth.

What did Moses and Elijah come back to do,if they no longer have influence on earth

[font=Lucida Sans Unicode][/font].

chukwudi44:

Jesus will always remain the son of Mary for enternity and nothing will ever change that.

That will be contrary to the words of jesus. In heaven there's no longer husbands, wives and mothers.

The analogy of the vessel does to apply to the case of the conception of Jesus in the womb of Jesus since he did not just pass through Mary but took his flesh and blood from her.

Jesus did not take blood from Mary . The blood of Mary was of sin, if jesus had the sinful blood of mary, his blood woild be unacceptable.the blood if Jesus was neutral. He had to be another Adam.

Jesus christ has two natures (fully God and fully Man)as plainly stated by the council of Chalcedon in 451 CE.While the God in him has always existed from the begining,the human nature originated from Mary.

What did Moses and Elijah come back to do,if they no longer have influence on earth

.The law and the prophet. So what did he come to do. Their appearance was before the New testament.  Moses represents the law , Elijah represents the prophets. Was their any such thing again . When the church was born? . It's only catholic that claim they see one saint appear somewhere.

@Joagbaje

I personally admire your zeal and conviction, knowing that, it would be hard therefore to engage in an argument with you. You are not going to be convinced and so accept, you are not going to understand and so leave it alone, and you are not going to reason with Catholics (one which is me) and thus even make any effort to be speaking from the same page with them, that is how futile this venture is going to be.

I however understand that being a member of CE, you would have a good idea of what personal encounter entails.

I'm going to be very brief. I was born a Catholic, grew up a nominal Catholic, just going to church every Sunday and observing the various activities of Catholicism (even when as a child in the junior secondary school I had had encounters). I was converted to a personal union with Christ by non-catholic neighbors just after my secondary school. I became troubled with the issue of praying to God and then asking the saints (among them Mary) for intercession from my union with them. To say the truth, I prayed fervently about it, and I still pray and my testimonies only shows that there is nothing wrong with it (I would share them here if asked) I'm a member of the Catholic Charismatic renewal and I've always prayed like a pentecostal, but I still ask for intercession from the saints.

If asking for intercession from the triumphant Church in heaven does not work, no Catholic would waste his time, afterall no one is stopping them from praying to God without asking for intercession, its a matter of choice and conviction of which faith is a vital part.

Shalom.

@The clown
I am not against the Catholics. We are all Catholics. I don't hold personal opinion. I just love the word of God for what it says. There's a religious good  feeling we have, putting responsibility of our spirituality on someone else " praying for us"Living or dead saints.

That apart. There's no single scripture suggesting that saints in heaven are praying for us. Or that we should beg them to pray to Jesus for us . They watch us and witness the glory if God manifest through us.their works on earth are over. Beings in heaven are learning Through the church.

Ephesians 3:10
10 He did this so that now, through the church, he could let the rulers and authorities in heaven know his infinite wisdom.

1 Corinthians 4:9
9 ----We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men.

God is in us through the agency of the holy spirit,who helps us to pray according to the will of God. Who else knows the will of God for me than the holy spirit in me. Saints in heaven don't know Gods plan for me in the first place.Gods will for me is in my spirit revealed by the holyghost 

 1 Corinthians 2:11
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

 1 John 5:14-15
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us–whatever we ask–we know that we have what we asked of him.

If God has assured us that he hear us. What else do we need. The holy spirit is the one that knows the will of God for me, and he is the only one that can help me pray according to the will if God. We have direct access and it should not be downplayed .

 Romans 8:26-27
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will

And we don't need to pray to Jesus. Talkless of asking Mary to beg Jesus for us.We pray to the father in the name of Jesus.  Jesus is not even Praying for us! 

John 16:26-27
26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

He has prayed,he has brought us to oneness with the father, if I am one with the father who us in me and wants the best for me, why would I need someone in heaven to talk to him on my behalf. Are we saying the oneness of Jesus is not complete?.

If there is any intercession needed it is christ and his blood is pleading our cause.his blood is speaking for us .
 
1 Timothy 2:5
5 For[ there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Does this thread really worth my time? Of course the rosary is a powerful prayer.When you carve out an idol from a wood and prays to it continously,an evil spirit must eventually enter into it and answer your prayers talk more of an idol made of ceramics.Evil spirits will prefer it to one made of wood and they will love to take possession of it immediately and likewise when you say prayers using the idol (call it an image of mary or whatever),the evil spirit must eventually answer you.What are the differences b/w you and witch doctors? They uses an idol made of wood and you uses an idol made of ceramics.They asks their gods(ani) to talk on their behalf and you prays to mary or some dead saints to talk on your behalf.Its almost the same if not a simple change of names.I never knew that someone who prays to dead saints or mary will eventually open a thread to talk about it.This is pure idolatory!

wake up my brother, what you are doing is idolatery, this is not scriptural, praying with rosary is a sin. god is a spirit we must pray to him in spirit and in truth. do not make any image, of something in heaven or on earch. rosary is an idle. i was an alter boy till i opened my eyes/

@ benstino read The Transfiguration.
Matthew 17. 1 - 13. Mark 9. 2 - 13. Luke 9. 26 - 36. And read about Jesus and Abraham, John 8. 48 - 59.

Different strokes for different folks,

That will be contrary to the words of jesus. In heaven there's no longer husbands, wives and mothers

where did you see Jesus say there are no longer mothers ?I beleive this is the passage you are refering to


34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a] 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive

Jesus did not take blood from Mary . The blood of Mary was of sin, if jesus had the sinful blood of mary, his blood woild be unacceptable.the blood if Jesus was neutral. He had to be another Adam

The fact remains that the humanity of Jesus (flesh and blood ) was derived from the virgin Mary.Abi do you agree with the muslims who claimed God created him from dust just like adam in the womb of the virgin Mary.

To you second point,Mary was not conceived in sin but was rather cnceived immaculately in preparation for her role in the incarnation.

.

The law and the prophet. So what did he come to do. Their appearance was before the New testament. Moses represents the law , Elijah represents the prophets. Was their any such thing again . When the church was born? . It's only catholic that claim they see one saint appear somewhere

You did not answer my poser,You claimed the saints in heaven no longer have any impact with the affairs on earth,In response to that I posted that Moses and Elijah appeared on earth to Jesus ,Peter ,James and John during the transfiguration.

It's only catholic that claim they see one saint appear somewhere

Penterascals Like Keneth Hagin,Benny Hinn amnd a couple of others have all claimed tom have seen apparition of Jesus and the angels,so my friend,it is not restricted to the catholic church.

That apart. There's no single scripture suggesting that saints in heaven are praying for us.

I ve postyed 3 scriptural passages for you abi u re blind.I ll repeat them again


In the book of revelations 5:8

Revelation 5:8 (New International Version)
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

From the above passage you can see that the prayers of God Peoples ascended to Jesus through the living creatures


Revelation 8:4 (New International Version)
4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand




Also in 2 mac 12;10-15, we see the prophet Jeremiah praying for the jewish nation.


10
Having stirred up their courage, he gave his orders and pointed out at the same time the perfidy of the Gentiles and their violation of oaths.
11
When he had armed each of them, not so much with the safety of shield and spear as with the encouragement of noble words, he cheered them all by relating a dream, a kind of vision, worthy of belief.
12
3 What he saw was this: Onias, the former high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in appearance, gentle in manners, distinguished in speech, and trained from childhood in every virtuous practice, was praying with outstretched arms for the whole Jewish community.
13
Then in the same way another man appeared, distinguished by his white hair and dignity, and with an air about him of extraordinary, majestic authority.
14
4 Onias then said of him, "This is God's prophet Jeremiah, who loves his brethren and fervently prays for his people and their holy city."
15
Stretching out his right hand, Jeremiah presented a gold sword to Judas. As he gave it to him he said,
16
"Accept this holy sword as a gift from God; with it you shall crush your adversaries

And we don't need to pray to Jesus. Talkless of asking Mary to beg Jesus for us.We pray to the father in the name of Jesus. Jesus is not even Praying for

us!


Do you really mean the boldened portion.

If God has assured us that he hear us. What else do we need.

why do people still go to pastors to pray for them when they can pray straight to God.

Pothumous miracles have occured and continued to occur from the intercession by saints in heaven.Besides there is no bible pasage which explicitlty states that saints in heaven cannot intercede for those on earth.

The prophet Elisha started it all in the OT when He posthumously raised a man from the death.God has continued to honour his siants with posthumous miracles most notably Saint Anthony of Padua who is said to have performed more miracles after his death than when he was still here on earth.

have a look at the post below


The communion of saints



Every time Catholics recite the apostolic creed they will say “I believe in the communion of saints“. What does communion of saints mean? Catholics understand that the Church is communion of saints. Who are those saints, literally means “the holy ones”? The Catechism of the Catholic Church # 962 declares: We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers. Most, even Catholics, might think that in Catholicism the title saint is only applied to already deceased persons who have been known to lead exemplary holy life, have a number of miracles attributed to them and their sainthood will be declared solemnly by the Church. They, in fact, are the canonized saints – they serve as role models and intercessors, the latter may scandalize some Protestants. However all members of the Church are saints. The Church, then, is ‘the holy People of God’, and her members are called ‘saints’ (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 823). Saint is not the opposite of sinner – in fact ‘All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners (ibid, # 827). As long as we are still on earth we are both saints and sinners at the same time.

Catholic’s belief that saints in heaven can intercede for us may scandalize some Protestants and “Bible only” Christians. Some may even accuse Catholics of practising necromancy, a practice condemned in Deuteronomy 18:10-11. Others says asking saints in heaven to intercede for us is robbing Christ’s position as the only mediator between God and us (1 Timothy 2:5). Protestants and “Bible only” Christians have no problem in asking other saints on earth to pray for them and vice versa – Scripture says “pray for one another” (James 5:15). Asking somebody to pray for us requires communication. We can communicate with saints on earth orally (directly or via telephone) or through letter, email, SMS etc. Protestants and “Bible only” Christians avoid communication with the dead – as scriptural proof usually they quote 1 Samuel 28:8-19 where Saul, through a medium, communicated with (what is supposed to be) Samuel. What Saul did was necromancy – he consulted the dead to get information of his future. The Catholic Church forbids such practice – all forms of divination are to be rejected; recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to ‘unveil’ the future (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 2116). From Scripture we know that it is possible to communicate with saints in heaven. John of Revelation was able to talk with one of the twenty-four elders who are in heaven (Revelation 5:5, 7:13-14). If communication with saints is heaven is forbidden then Christ gave bad example when He talked with Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). Christ said “he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). Thus Catholics believe all saints, whether they are alive on earth or alive in heaven, are able to communicate with us. We can ask saints, on earth or in heaven, to pray for us and their prayers will go through Christ, the only mediator, to God. Our communication with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 957). Keep in mind that Catholics do not pray to the saints in heaven - we ask them to pray for us, just like we ask saints on earth to do the same. It is God who ultimately answers their prayers – those saints; whether they are on earth or in heaven, only intercede for us. In necromancy it is the dead whom we expect to provide us with information, usually about our future (life, marriage, business, investment etc.) Finally Catholics also can pray and intercede for saints who are also alive and are being purified in purgatory (ibid # 958

@chukwudi44
i blieve u can recite our Lord's prayer perfectly, in it, He never asked any saint or angel in heaven to pray for us, He went straight to the Father. Jesus never taught us to ask any angel in heaven to pray for us rather He said we should pray to God Almighty through Him.
Remember also when John erraneously bowed down to worship an angel in Revelation, the angel did something remarkable.
"Bible only" pls do u have another book? since u don't believe in totality, what is written in the Bible, can u share the contents of your holybook with me?

grailife:

@ benstino read The Transfiguration.
Matthew 17. 1 - 13. Mark 9. 2 - 13. Luke 9. 26 - 36. And read about Jesus and Abraham, John 8. 48 - 59.

Pls beat not about the bush and give not unto me numerous irrelevant bible verses!From whence did you get the idea that saints or Mary interceds to God on your behalf?So christ is no more enough.Witch doctors builds alters for their gods where they makes incantations in an archaic form and you builds alters for demon possessed statues of Mary where you makes your incantations in modern form in the form of rossary.Is there any difference? I was once opportuned to attend a thanksgiving service at Saint Josephs parish Church in Nnewi.To my utter dismay,almost everyone that came to church went to where a giant idol(in the form of mary)was built and bowed to it b/4 going into the church.Abomination! idolatory in the church!

the best answer to a fool is silent but i will not call u a fool, ask yoruba people how they show respect for their elders or the mother of their king.

the best answer to a fool is silent but i will not call u a fool, ask yoruba people how they show respect for their elders or the mother of their king.

grailife:

the best answer to a fool is silent but i will not call u a fool, ask yoruba people how they show respect for their elders or the mother of their king.

Alas!I never knew that I have been wasting my time on a kid.

Praise God

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ThTJg3oSEc songs of mary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbWOGyKJrQo

grailife:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbWOGyKJrQo

my dear,dont allow anyone to make you reject your christian faith.i am proud to be called a catholic