At the end of the day, no one knows where the lost Injil and Torah of the Qur'an went; or even what one line in those documents say!

So, which one did Muhammad use in his day? Didn't he say that he believed in the one that the Jews were using?

  Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4434:

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.

They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so
pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought.

He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying:
I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.

He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought.
The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one
transmitted by Malik from Nafi' (No. 4431).

          So, what Torah did Muhammad confess that he believed in?

          Are there two Torahs - one for Jews and the other for Muslims?

At least, we know that the Jewish Torah exists today, and have predated Muhammad and Islam. So, if the claim made by some Muslims that "the Torah was LOST" can be sustained at all (if that was not a bigger deception), does that not mean that the Islamic Torah was "lost" (if at all ever given) - which is what we have often been told?

Those who are quoting Dr. Naik Zakir and Ahmed Deedat on this fallacy of the lost Torah and Injil should please explain the mystery of Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4434 above!!

kai,all these smart smart people

shall we assume  that  magic was worked on the apostle of  allah such that he thought he saw and touched the Torah when indeed he didn't

@Telly B

Am still asking you same question

What does the Jewish Torah contain?

If the Torah is not included as part of the Quran, how come the story of Moses in the Quran?

Thanks

@babs787,

If you could kindly set the dribbling aside, we can move on.

The Jewish Torah are still avaiable today - and you can obtain a copy in any good bookshop, in precisely the same way that any copy of the Bible or Qur'an can be obtained.

babs787:

If the Torah is not included as part of the Quran, how come the story of Moses in the Quran?

Your Qur'an does not call it the story of Moses; rather, it calls it the BOOKS OF MOSES or the BOOK of Moses!!

       Quran 53:36 -- "Or hath he not had news of what is in the books of Moses" [Pickthall's tr.]

Trying to bring up the issue of "story" into the debate is denying the exact wording of the Qur'an. Thanks.

@Telly B

Insert Quote
@babs787,

If you could kindly set the dribbling aside, we can move on.

You are the one dribbling yourself.

The Jewish Torah are still avaiable today - and you can obtain a copy in any good bookshop, in precisely the same way that any copy of the Bible or Qur'an can be obtained.

So thanks for that, what does it contain?

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 11:56:07 AM
If the Torah is not included as part of the Quran, how come the story of Moses in the Quran?

You Qur'an does not call it the story of Moses; rather, it calls it the BOOKS OF MOSES or the BOOK of Moses!!

Quran 53:36 -- "Or hath he not had news of what is in the books of Moses" [Pickthall's tr.]

Trying to bring up the issue of "story" into the debate is denying the exact wording of the Qur'an. Thanks.

Dont you ever think that you are smart. What does the Torah contain, is it not about Moses and the Jews?

babs787:

You are the one dribbling yourself.

Okay. Does that say anything about the topic?

babs787:

So thanks for that, what does it contain?

Get a copy.

babs787:

Dont you ever think that you are smart. What does the Torah contain, is it not about Moses and the Jews?

I wasn't "smart" - I simply quoted from the Qur'an to show that you were wrong! The Qur'an did not call them "stories" - rather, it calls them the BOOKS of Moses!! If you have anything against that, please quote the qur'an. Thanks.

Insert Quote
Quote from: babs787 on Today at 12:59:25 PM
You are the one dribbling yourself.

Okay. Does that say anything about the topic?

I replied your allegation.

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 12:59:25 PM
So thanks for that, what does it contain?

Get a copy.

It is not an issue of getting a copy but you telling me what it contains.

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 12:59:25 PM
Dont you ever think that you are smart. What does the Torah contain, is it not about Moses and the Jews?

I wasn't "smart" - I simply quoted from the Qur'an to show that you were wrong! The Qur'an did not call them "stories" - rather, it calls them the BOOKS of Moses!! If you have anything against that, please quote the qur'an. Thanks.

Brother, I can never be wrong but you are the confusing the whole issue. You are claiming that the Quran does not contain the Torah and I am asking you, if it does not, how come we are having everything about Moses and the Jew in the Quran?


Thanks

@babs787,

babs787:

I replied your allegation.

Ok.

babs787:

It is not an issue of getting a copy but you telling me what it contains.

I will do so if you could please simply state what you believe is the Torah.

babs787:

Brother, I can never be wrong but you are the confusing the whole issue.

Pride is not a virtue.

babs787:

You are claiming that the Quran does not contain the Torah and I am asking you, if it does not, how come we are having everything about Moses and the Jew in the Quran?

You don't have "everything" about Moses and the Jews in the Qur'an.

The simple issue here has been the Qur'an calls them BOOKS of Moses. You called them "stories". Please quote the verses in the Qur'an in exactly the verse I offered, and let's see if indeed the Qur'an called them "stories"!

babs787:

@Telly B

Am still asking you same question

What does the Jewish Torah contain?

If the Torah is not included as part of the Quran, how come the story of Moses in the Quran?

Thanks

. . . . . . . . . . . Thank Goodness, you now know how to insert quotes in your postings. Olodo!!!

Sequel to your post here, I would like to ask you and all your muslims brothers, why Islamic scholars seek for the relevance of Mo from the Old Testament in the Bible. Precisely from Deuteronomy 18 : 18??

_{Note: Be careful to answer me Babs, 'cos I am going to post your own previous response here to this particular verse!}

OMG! Somebody grab 'em anti-depressants and them pills! Blabs 787 a.k.a Sir Blabberworth is about to have a fit!

Mrpataki, david, anyone dammit, get me some of Dr. Gbade's all new PURPLE HAZE PROZAC pills for the depressed, highly deluded and mentally challenged!

Remember, discounts occur at your local drugstores so get some for dear ol' blabs while offers last !

mrpataki:

Sequel to your post here, I would like to ask you and all your muslims brothers, why Islamic scholars seek for the relevance of Mo from the Old Testament in the Bible. Precisely from Deuteronomy 18 : 18??

It can be simplified this way:

          Question:  Where are the Torah and Injil?

          Muslim: They are LOST and cannot be found!!

          Question:  How then can Muhammad be found in the Deuteronomy and John's Gospel?

          Muslim: Those are not the Gospel and Torah that Allah sent down!!

          Question: Okay, so which ones did Muhammad use in his day?

          Muslim: Are you trying to tell me that those Gospels are the Injil?

          Question: I only asked you about what Torah and Injil Muhammad used!

          Muslim: Now answer my question first!!

          Question: Right then. There is no place in the Qur'an where a different Torah
                                  is spoken of. Infact, the Hadith said that Muhammad believed in the
                                  same Torah that the Jews used!

          Muslim: [panics and dashes to his favourte website to plagiarize materials;
                               doesn't find a suitable one, and then returns with more panic] Well,
                               I have 101 questions against Christianity; and you MUST answer me!

          Question: But you haven't answered the one on the Torah and the Injil?!?

          Muslim: It is glaring that you and your folks are crying. So answer me FIRST!

Enter stimulus. . .

          stimulus: Muslim, I've answered some of your questions in a thread I opened!

          Muslim: [still dazed by pilgrim.1's threads] You still have not answered my questions!

          stimulus: But I have quoted from Muslim authors and translators!

          Muslim: I pity your deluded authors that lied in order to deceive you!!


Enter the sobbing congregation (SC) of 'muslim'

          SC: Em Muslim, we are very impressed! You have won the debate!   

          Muslim: Salaam. I am too much for them!


Addendum: Has the basic question been answered by 'Muslim'??

you forgot to include the committee of concerned christians for allah (CCCA)!

CCCA: The bible says thou shalt not judge, the way you so-called christians are attacking muslims is appaling. I am shocked to read some of the responses from my brethren in Christ.
Question: But the bible says in 1 Peter 3: 15 . . .always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear:

davidylan:

you forgot to include the committee of concerned christians for allah (CCCA)!

CCCA: The bible says thou shalt not judge, the way you so-called christians are attacking muslims is appaling. I am shocked to read some of the responses from my brethren in Christ.
Question: But the bible says in 1 Peter 3: 15 . . .always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear:

Aahh!! I forgot the CCCA!

chei,una no go kill me before my time,lol

@Queenisha,

There are many authors that helped Mohammed write the Koran but let's save it for another thread.I don't want to derail this.We've dealt with that topic earlier.
Am I surprised at your claim afterall they tell you folks the greatest miracle is the Koran itself.
We have also dealth with contaradictions in the koran,use search and you'll find it.


https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-52589.0.html#msg1101068

Allah! there is no hidden place for you. Bring the contradictions of the Quran here. Lets face it. I challenge you;

1. Who are the remaining authors of the Quran?

2. Where are the contradictions there in

3. Produce the like of the Quran, just a similar verse for analysis, morphologically.

Qur'an 4:82: Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

And i missed all of that fun! Subhannah! I am waiting for Stimulus, MrPataki, Davidylan, Gweine and the like, include but limited Nossycheek!

Let me whet your appetite for what is coming to you: The mother of the Book is in Laumafuhz! From this station, each of the revealed Books to the prophets were reveals, in their due times to the intended prophets (AS)! So when Torah was revealed to Moses, they were words from Ummuh Kitab in laumafhuz! The same with David's Sabur, and Jesus Injil! The same with Muhammad's Qur'an! On earth the Ummuh Kitab among the 4 and the other pamphlets revealed to Ibrahim, and others, The Qur'an stands as the mother for them, since it contains all that are essential and essentially their messages and what is revealed to them.

Let me give you example: There is no deity of worship, except God (Allah, in Arabic phonetic)! This is essentially what all the prophets and messengers (AS) spoke to their people. Unfortunately, the Christians after Jesus have been raised up, they injected 3 godheads instead of what Jesus actually told them, that he was a prophet of God to the Children of Israel!

It is interesting to note though, that babs787 was the only person responding to the many Christians! Now lets talk about it and I hope that Stimulus is returned safely from his journey! At least Queenisha, Davidylan and co along with nossycheek are here to represent! Les do it. Its ramada and conversation like this is very adequate! Anybody home?

We are still waiting for Queenisha and Co's response.

In sha Allah, we are engaging in this conversation not to affirm any disgust against anybody other than to encourage our fellow being to reason along; the reality of this revelation which I belief the whole world scientists, scholars and philosophers could not be wronged. Thus thier amazing thought that such a book with outstanding accuracy(both syntax and semantic) could not be from just ordinary illiterate, rather, a well learned person.

However, for many people who have against the Qur'an are found amongst those who are never read it or the antagonists of Islam who only share nothing from the Quran except terrific messages. Meanwhile, they never wake up to know the truth coz their mind have been polluted with dirty news about Islam.

Once again, Queenisha's claims that:

1. Muhammad plagiarized the bible to produce the Qur'an

2. There are many authors of the Quran in which Muhammad is one of them

3. There are contradictions in the Qur'an.


My questions are enumerated and supported by Quran verses as follows:

1. Which verses or chapter were copied from the bible and by who?

2. Who are the remaining authors of the Qur'an

3. Where are the contradictions there in

4. Produce the like of the Quran, just a similar verse for analysis, morphologically.

Qur'an challenges:

1. " Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy"
(Qur'an 4:82)


2. “Say: ‘If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another.’” (Qur'an 17:88)

3. “And if you all are in doubt about what I have revealed to My servant, bring a single chapter like it, and call your witnesses besides God if you are truthful.” (Qur'an 2:23)

4.“And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down (i.e. the Quran) upon our servant, then produce a Surah like thereof and call upon your witnesses (i.e. supporters) other than Allah, if you should be truthful. But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.” (2:23-24)

Hi Everyone.
Do yurselves a world of good:read the satanic verses by Salman Rushdie and who is this Allah by G.J.O Moshay.
I play with all religion but Islam sets itself apart.it is no religion of peace as is widely being proclaimed by many muslims.

@james

james1:

Do yurselves a world of good:read the satanic verses by Salman Rushdie and who is this Allah by G.J.O Moshay.
I play with all religion but Islam sets itself apart.it is no religion of peace as is widely being proclaimed by many muslims.

Don't be proxy believer. Do yourself a better, read the Qur'an and present what you undearstand and what you claim as satanic.

who is this Allah by G.J.O Moshay? I think I am better informed. It is nothing but a packed of conjectures.

Provide rsponse to the above enumerated contest.

@poster
Only a fool will say" I don't know its origin" In that case if you happen not to still comprehend the Source after reading or listening, you must be one.

@James: « #81 on: September 08, 2008, 06:20 PM »

Hi Everyone.
Do yurselves a world of good:read the satanic verses by Salman Rushdie and who is this Allah by G.J.O Moshay.
I play with all religion but Islam sets itself apart.it is no religion of peace as is widely being proclaimed by many muslims.

Is this the James, the disciple? Aren't you the "brother," of the christian lord?
You are still alive after all the centuries, that the christian "god" had passed on?
If the christians are smart you should have been their god, since you outlast their lord!
This is just to whet your appetite!

Now tell me where your train kinda got off from the track?
Please post the satanic verses, from the book of Salman Rushdie, and the elemental argument against the Qur'an from
G. J. O. Moshay. You can at least do us that favor, so as to be able to respond to your allegation, along the line of responding to the allegations of your two authors!

One thing you must know is that we do not believe in more than One God! And we are not playing with religion, like you have declared yourself to be! Its easy for you, since you do not believe in anything, and the Christian who believe in man god and other gods must be out to disprove the muslims in their believe in One single God, without any room for deviation!

Taking a God Lord, is not option with mankind! It is a commandment from the Lord God on mankind, humans! However, it is a choice which every human can accept: Those who accept willingly and worship Him alone without any partner (any partner I said, including the last of the messengers, Muhammad even been called "lord,' as some muslims are being reported to have by Pilgrim.1), will be rewarded with bliss of Paradise for their belief. InshaAllah.

However those who "play" with religion, the athiests, agnostics, buhddists, etc, and indeed the idolators, and the group that claim that God is a tribal Lord meant for them against other tribes and peoples (the gentals) and the group that takes a man god, a ghost god and father god; all of them with disbelief in the messengership of Muhammad (as), will be herded like cattle to water or pasture, to the punishment of hell!

And I am very sure of this! We see that your brand of peace lacks moderation. It seems to me that if your women folks are being abused by a violent man, you may just be saying to this man, against all odds , while your people are asking you to help, in order to keep your imagery and concept of peace, you will so nothing!

People like you are called emotionally unrealistic people! There is no humanity in you. Shame on you James! I want you to respond. Please the hordes of Christians who had contributed in the argument, against Babs787. The muslims are here now. This can be continued!

Haha

The Gospel of Jesus Shall go out!

And the gates of hell shall not prevail. . . . .


Islam o Islam, when will you pipu bring out your heads out from the stuffings


Why are Fatwas pronounced on those books

if not to stop the truth from getting out

but sadly happily, Nothing can stop the Truth

@ James: you may just be saying to this man, against all odds : I am a peaceful man! In the maintime he continues to butcher or violate your women, who were looking forward to your support. They must have thought that you had some backbones. They did not know that you are mere Jellyfish, until then!

@Gamine: Whats "stuffings?" For sure the "Gospel of Jesus," is not the Bible! Or is it?
Proof! Its not just enough to write without evidence(s) for the claims.
I think you believe that everything that comes out to advance your idea, regardless of
its source, even if it is senseless and untrue, it is to you the "TRUTH!"

Am I correct so far? I wonder whats true then when in the New Testament we have
verses argueing against other verses on a single topic. (Mark 12 verse 29 saying that Jesus declared that he is not Lord God which is One Lord), against the idea (since the word does not appear on any page of the many hundreds in the Bible) of Trinity!

Im sorry but when Fatwas are being called down upon my head

at every turn, how am i supposed to believe what Islam says

And by the way, if it is the "words" of Muhammad (AS), there would not be any need for Ahadith! Would there be any need? And finally, all that Muhammad (AS) have said would have been reported or written on the pages of Qur'an! Would there be a reason for him to separate the Qur'an from ahadith, considering that the ahadith were his expalnation of the verses of the Qur'an.

Why would he have scribes only for Qur'an, and never told insisted the same for "Ahadith?"

I guess the none muslims are finding ways to bring the Qur'an down to the level of their own book(s).
I see the christians of nairaland are at the front of this charge. Please people; understand is not like your book.

We do not have the statement of anyone in the Qur'an, except that Allah says that it be written down as a revelation!


@Gamine: Who has proclaimed fatwa on your head? When and why and how? And by the way, anybody can proclaim anything
and be accepted by many people. The fact remains it may be completely wrong. Afterall, the Christians believe in ahuman god! Does it make it right?

Don't you see that you humanize God, when He is not? Don't you see that that you cheapen Him, and it is not necessary to do that? Your actions whereby you take God to be your father, a ghost and a human, clearly destroyed His Uniqueness, qualities that separate Him from His creations. This is completely wrong! Please think about.

You can not create your own image of what you think God Lord should be, or accept what others who are foundamentally wrong about Him say. You think those whom He has favored to know will just not at least tell you about it?

There is an ahadith that says when you see evil, if you can change it with your hand, you should do so. If you are weak to do so, then talk about it by the change with your mouth. If you are still unable to because you lack any strength, at least hate that evil with your heart!

And the mere hating it in your heart is the weakest of all effort! Gamine, can you at least hate the concept of cheapening God Lord who is One in your heart?

The Bible (New Testament) did not stop after Jesus was lifted up by his "Lord God!" We continued to have postmortem Biblical writings. Thanks to the disciples, and the later time apostles who joined up. Well who can forget Paul, who used to be saul!

And by the way, if it is the "words" of Muhammad (AS), there would not be any need for Ahadith! Would there be any need? And finally, all that Muhammad (AS) have said would have been reported or written on the pages of Qur'an! Would there be a reason for him to separate the Qur'an from ahadith, considering that the ahadith were his expalnation of the verses of the Qur'an.

Why would he have scribes only for Qur'an, and never told insisted the same for "Ahadith?"

I guess the none muslims are finding ways to bring the Qur'an down to the level of their own book(s).
I see the christians of nairaland are at the front of this charge. Please people; understand is not like your book.

We do not have the statement of anyone in the Qur'an, except that Allah says that it be written down as a revelation!



The Bible (New Testament) did not stop after Jesus was lifted up by his "Lord God!" We continued to have postmortem Biblical writings. Thanks to the disciples, and the later time apostles who joined up. Well who can forget Paul, who used to be saul!


@Gamine: Who has proclaimed fatwa on your head? When and why and how? And by the way, anybody can proclaim anything
and be accepted by many people. The fact remains it may be completely wrong. Afterall, the Christians believe in ahuman god! Does it make it right?

Don't you see that you humanize God, when He is not? Don't you see that that you cheapen Him, and it is not necessary to do that? Your actions whereby you take God to be your father, a ghost and a human, clearly destroyed His Uniqueness, qualities that separate Him from His creations. This is completely wrong! Please think about.

You can not create your own image of what you think God Lord should be, or accept what others who are foundamentally wrong about Him say. You think those whom He has favored to know will just not at least tell you about it?

There is an ahadith that says when you see evil, if you can change it with your hand, you should do so. If you are weak to do so, then talk about it by the change with your mouth. If you are still unable to because you lack any strength, at least hate that evil with your heart!

And the mere hating it in your heart is the weakest of all effort! Gamine, can you at least hold the hate of cheapening God Lord who is One in your heart?

God is God alone.

None before Him or After Him.

We Do not Cheapen Him.


Im sorry that You Muslims cannot fathom a God who Loves.

I will not stop praying for you , You need to be loved.

« #90 on: Yesterday at 06:29:38 PM »

God is God alone.

And there is no one like Him. He is unique and does not look anything or anyone! No partner, remember?

None before Him or After Him.

Everything is a subject to Him! He created all, without any exception.

We Do not Cheapen Him.

You just say that now. But before you said He looks like the next guy. Like a man.
You are now denying that you just said that He had to come on earth as a human
to learn the ropes of how to be human, so that He can know what you, humans
go through to be human.

If thats not cheapening His Majestic position, I don't know what is!

I'm sorry that You Muslims cannot fathom a God who Loves.

My God loves. Then forgives, without any middle thing, person or entity!
I talk to Him, directly. Using His exact words and also supplicate to Him, using my own words.

I will not stop praying for you , You need to be loved.

Thanks. I will not stop you to make the prayer to God, if its from your heart.
Afterall, i am not the owner of your tongue. I can force you to make prayers!

Oh
I miss Stimulus!
Where is my smart brother

ALLAH is NOT The GOD of ISRAEL. ALLAH is NOT GOD.

All of the Quran's contradictions, inconsistencies, historical dislocations, theological anomalies, grammatical errors etc, become crystal clear as the product of Muhammad's own Alter Ego projected unto the persona and into the mouth of the unsuspecting ALLAH, the pagan rock god of the Ka'ba, and have nothing whatsoever to do with any Divine Inspirations.

You can say that again