cogitoErgo: @benodic, I concour! I have this scenario: two friends, who were initialy very bad, (they comit all sorts of sin u might think of)were involved in a business involving large amount of money. Now friend A thought he deserved to get all the money so he killed friend B(so B died, a sinner!). After some few years on earth, friend A met a `man of God` he was preached to and 'repented' of his sins (So friend A is now a born again). A few years latter A died too.
Questions: (1). will A be sent to heaven and B to hell?
(2). if (1) is YES, would justice have been done(our God is a God of jusice!)? considering the fact that both A and B have 50/50 chance of being converted on earth and it was A who cut the chance of B being converted!
I have only being able to justify what will happen to both A and B using rehincarnation. So I think, rehincarnation is true!

I think you should first read, understand what reincarnation is before making this assumption or posting the unrelated thinking or snerio. However, if you want to know what will happen to both men, read this bible (romans 6:7). It is what they did after resurrection that will count since jesus make a statement about the resurrection of good and bad people (john 5:28, 29). Note that before he begin, he first said do not be suprise or marvel at what am going to tell you.

interesting, I've listen to those against and for. But for those saying John the baptist came as Elias, then what about the bible statement of "it is appointed unto a man to die once, after death, then judgement"

duba: interesting, I've listen to those against and for. But for those saying John the baptist came as Elias, then what about the bible statement of "it is appointed unto a man to die once, after death, then judgement"

You don't have to listen to those who are against and those who are for as if we are debating or in a court of law but you should look intently at the point to know which one is supported by the bible which is our doctrine or believe as christians. You statement is very correct that it is appointed for man to die ones and after that, judgement. Definatly, they won't be judged in the grave because they knew nothing then, can't talk, can't love, can't hate, because all their attributes have perished with them(read eccle 9:5,6,10 ). When they will hear jesus call, all their attribute will be restored to them and then, they will be judged according to their deeds(read revelation 20:13). If you want to know the truth, read the correct defination of reincarnation and after that, read the correct defination about resurrection(one is false and one is true because the two cannot stand) . After that ask yourself which does the bible spoke about and support since the two cannot stand because if reincarnation exits, their will be no need of resurrection since the dead comes back and continue living, but if resurrection exits, their is no reincarnation since all the dead are in their grave waiting to be raised up from the grave both good and bad people(john 5:28, 29). Let us make sure of the important and truthful believe to place our hope since these tings can adversely affect us especially that of false teaching which the devil promotes. If you sincerely not minding your religion or what you believe before, honestly go thru the points and read the bible quoted here, it will personally benefit you.

@henrychubayo. Thanks I appreciate.

It is always every soul's choice to choose what to believe in at any lifetime. You can decide to keep your beliefs bottled up in your understanding of what is written in a book or you can choose to be a bold and courageous soul and challenge whatever belief is placed before you as the truth through an inner verification.

This is for any sincere seeker who really wants to know the truth for him or herself.
Pray the way that is comfortable for you before you go to bed and just ask God if reincarnation is true or false. Sit still for a while and listen. If nothing comes then go to bed with the question on your mind. Then watch your dreams. You will get an answer.

That answer from within becomes your authority which no one or any book can take from you.

FALSE

@ chubaotono

obviously what i posted is not meant for you or any other person who is not ready to go beyond the scriptures. it is meant for sincere seekers who really want to experience truth for themselves instead of just depending on the experiences people had 2000 years ago that was written in a book.
that is your level of consciousness and it is okay, but bear in mind that there are millions of sincere seekers out there who are ready to experience truth for themselves instead of just taking as truth what is written in a book.
and of course there are other religions out there that know that the concept of Reincarnation is a fact. when you become an inner driven Soul you learn to rely on inner revelations from the Holy Spirit instead of what anyone tells you about truth.

benodic:
@ chubaotono

obviously what i posted is not meant for you or any other person who is not ready to go beyond the scriptures. it is meant for sincere seekers who really want to experience truth for themselves instead of just depending on the experiences people had 2000 years ago that was written in a book.
that is your level of consciousness and it is okay, but bear in mind that there are millions of sincere seekers out there who are ready to experience truth for themselves instead of just taking as truth what is written in a book.
and of course there are other religions out there that know that the concept of Reincarnation is a fact. when you become an inner driven Soul you learn to rely on inner revelations from the Holy Spirit instead of what anyone tells you about truth.

So the bible is what u call a book. Are u scared of calling it by its name? Probably because your comment here show that you are off the line. Maybe, you are more wiser than the person who provided the bible and ask us to read it day and night. Plz for you own benefit, rely solidly in the content of the bible for it is inspired and beneficial rather than hoping to God to speak with you direct or by dreams. Those who did were not disappointed and those who still rely on it will never be disappointed. Leave your day dreaming, leave your intelligence, leave your hope to see vision but hope and trust in the bible cause you will see the benefit. These are my kind deed advice.

@ henrychubayo

as a christian i read the Holy Bible in and out on a daily basis and meditated on its words
.
But everything written in the bible pales in comparison to the actual experience of the Light and Sound of God which is the expression of the Holy Spirit.

The Living Word is alive and throbbing within all Souls and is not found in pages of a book. Those who have taken a sip of the divine wisdom of God that comes from inner experiences knows that it is the real deal and the transforming element you need to be a living breathing fully expressed divine chanel for God.

Once you take that sip then you will understand what i am talking about.

Then again as i said before my post is not for you and others like you. Those it is meant for will recognise it when they see it.
So please stop troubling yourself and stick to what you know. Each to his or her level of consciousness.

^ ^ ^ Brilliant, benodic!

Might I ask if you are familiar with the Grail Message?

Are there any significant differences in its teachings and the teachings of Eckankar?

@ Deep Sight(m)

^ ^ ^ Brilliant, benodic!

Might I ask if you are familiar with the Grail Message?

i read the first volume of "In The Light Of Truth" during the days i was searching for truth. most of what was in the book resonated with me. i also attended some of their public programs. they were quite enlightening.the romance ended when i found the teaching of ECKANKAR.

Are there any significant differences in its teachings and the teachings of Eckankar?

of course there are significant differences.

1. In Eckankar there is always a Living Eck Master who serves as the Spiritual Leader and also as the Mahanta, the Inner Master. Teaching ready souls both in the outer and in the inner and preserving the ECK teachings. i did not see this in Grail message.

2. both teach about soul being a spark of God sent to this world to mature and we also agree on the concept of karma and reincarnation but we differ in the methodology of going back home to God. in Eck we use the Spiritual exercises especially the HU song to start the process of opening ourselves to guidance from God. this is non existent in Grail teachings.

3. Soul Travel is another concept which grail does not agree with. they agree that the heavens of God exist but to them it is not necessary to visit them while one is still alive. but in ECK, we accept the fact that Soul is a citizen of heaven as it descended from heaven, so Soul travel in extension becomes a natural means of Soul simply visiting its home on a temporary basis pending when its work here on earth is done. such journeys takes away the fear of death, validates the existence of heaven, proves to you that you are soul and when you are done here you already know to which heaven you are heading to. it is that simple.

4. the ultimate goal in Eckankar is for soul go through its lessons here in the lower worlds and go back home to become a co-worker with God, a master in its own right, serving God where ever God wills it to serve. this also in not in grail message.

there are so many but i will leave this few for you to peruse and maybe raise more questions.

thanks

^^^ Thanks Benodic.

1. Why don't you try reading the entire Grail Message before arriving at your conclusion? You did mention that you only read volume one?

2. What does it mean when you refer to a living Eck Master guiding the outer and particularly - the inner life - as "Mahanta"?. I will be deeply concerned at the idea of any human being who becomes my "inner master". Maybe I am not understanding it right and you can explain it better to me. In my mind, it is as simple as saying that my only inner master should be God itself - or my conscience.

O, and perhaps one's wife. Women are always masters. ^^^

3. The Grail message does not really teach that humans are a spark of God although I believe that its teaching in this regard is slightly confused. It teaches that there is nothing divine whatsoever in human beings - that humans are an entirely different species from the divine. All the same it accedes that all life comes from God. I beleieve there is a contradiction here. Although I hate to say it, it sometimes seems to me that the Grail Messages' vehement insistence that there is no spark of the divine in humans is at odds with the fact that the writer of the Grail Massage is said to have divinity within him! In my opinion, this is how cult reverence is created.

Now, my fear is that the idea of this Living Eck Master as an inner master could lead to a similar cult-like reverence.

4. What is the idea of God in Eckankar? Is it a pantheistic view.

5. What really is the "Hu" power all about?

6. Do you not think that soul travel could distort one's reality and perception of time. Do you not also think it could render some people mentally unstable?

Thanks.

@ deepsight

Thanks Benodic.

1. Why don't you try reading the entire Grail Message before arriving at your conclusion? You did mention that you only read volume one?

i had a lot of friends who were members and we used to have discussions about the whole grail message. after the reading the volume one, i ran into the ECK teachings and found what i was looking for. so since then i never really bothered so much with reading the remaining volumes. because any spiritual truth i want to have an understanding about i just tune in and ask and i get answers. so i stop bothering with reading so much books. may be later who knows i might try and read the remaining volumes.

2. What does it mean when you refer to a living Eck Master guiding the outer and particularly - the inner life - as "Mahanta"?. I will be deeply concerned at the idea of any human being who becomes my "inner master". Maybe I am not understanding it right and you can explain it better to me. In my mind, it is as simple as saying that my only inner master should be God itself - or my conscience.

O, and perhaps one's wife. Women are always masters. grin^^^

The first cause of all life is the Almighty God which we know as the Sugmad. from the Sugmad issues forth the second cause which is God in expression which is known as the Holy Spirit or the ECK. the Holy Spirit is the essence of God which permeates all life and in it we live, move and have our being. the Holy Spirit can be seen as a Light and heard as a Sound. which was what happened during the Pentecost as reported in the Holy Bible. The Light and Sound now comes together in a matrix that souls can easily relate to and that is The Mahanta. The Mahanta is the Holy Spirit in form and it is a state of consciousness whose duty is to take Ready, matured souls back to the Sugmad.

now a Soul who has undergone spiritual purification, growth and maturity and has the highest amount of love for all life is now chosen by the Sugmad to become a Channel for the Mahanta Consciousness, to serve as the form that souls can easily relate to in their journey back to God. This soul becomes the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master. as the Living ECK Master, he teaches you in the outer and gives you spiritual exercises that links you up with the Holy spirit. and in the Inner he is also there as the Mahanta in a form that you can easily relate to, to further guide you in your journey back home to God if you need any help or guidance.

so He is always there as a spiritual adviser and does not force himself or ECK teachings on any soul except for those who request for it. and mind you He is not God. as no one can become God but we can become God-like expressing all the qualities of God and that is why God sent us down here to become matured souls.

3. The Grail message does not really teach that humans are a spark of God although I believe that its teaching in this regard is slightly confused. It teaches that there is nothing divine whatsoever in human beings - that humans are an entirely different species from the divine. All the same it accedes that all life comes from God. I beleieve there is a contradiction here. Although I hate to say it, it sometimes seems to me that the Grail Messages' vehement insistence that there is no spark of the divine in humans is at odds with the fact that the writer of the Grail Massage is said to have divinity within him! In my opinion, this is how cult reverence is created.

Now, my fear is that the idea of this Living Eck Master as an inner master could lead to a similar cult-like reverence.

what you said is very true concerning the grail message and that was part of the reason i lost interest in their teachings and that is also where they are totally at variance with ECK teachings.
although they agree we came from God, they disagreed about our divinity. in ECK we know that we are divine souls and the reason we are in the lower worlds is to unfold that divinity. the fact is in ECK every one is working to become a Master in his own right. so the issue of cult-like reverence does not arise. the Master is training you to walk the path he walked, arrive at the destination he had arrived and claim your rightful place in the kingdom of God as he has done. if a soul is not ready to grow spiritually to become a Master too, then he or she is wasting time in ECKANKAR and should go else where until He or she is ready.

4. What is the idea of God in Eckankar? Is it a pantheistic view.

The Almighty God which we know as the Sugmad, is formless and unknowable. The Sugmad created the pure spiritual planes and the Lower planes to serve as school for the immature souls he created. in each of these planes It placed a Being to govern that plane. some of these Beings have form and some souls who venture into the inner planes when they come across some of the beings refer them as Almighty God because of the light coming from them, their size and the big thrones on which they sit. but these Beings are not the Almighty God. as i said before The almighty God is formless, unknowable and all loving.

5. What really is the "Hu" power all about?

The HU is a universal name of God. it is the only name of God that does not belong to any language, religion or tribe. Eckankar does not lay claim to the HU. It is a prayer song that God has given to all souls to use in finding its way back to It. the power of the HU is in the vibration that it raises as you sing it with love for God. it starts a process of spiritual purification in you and opens your spiritual eyes to be able to see the light of God and opens your spiritual ears to hear the sound of God and the still small voice that is always there telling you how to live your life aright. It is sung in a long drawn out way with the out going breath: HUUUUUUU. sing it like that for 15 to 20 minutes at a sitting in the night and in the morning and watch your experiences.

those who have tried singing the HU have their experiences as a prove to its efficacy.

6. Do you not think that soul travel could distort one's reality and perception of time. Do you not also think it could render some people mentally unstable?

it does exactly the opposite. it clearly sharpens your perception of reality and makes you mentally very stable. there are lots of benefits one gets from soul travel.

people are busy here arguing about whether reincarnation is real or not. with soul travel you easily travel into the causal plane, where the akashic records are kept and you can see the records of your past lives which you can verify when you come back. that is why we do not argue about most of these so called mysteries of life. mysteries are for lazy souls who are not bold enough to simply ask, just ask God for truth. if you are open and sincere, it will be shown to you.

soul travel takes away the fear of death. why? because you already know where you are going when you translate as you have been visiting there already through soul travel so life does not take you by surprise anymore. i can go on and on and on. and these things i am saying are not just things i read in a book or what someone told me,they are things i personally have experienced so no body can just walk up to me and convince me otherwise.

every truth is subject to inner verification. until you learn to do that, then you will always be swept around by any argument that carries the day.



thanks too.

One reason why reincarnation is false is the that the idea presupposes a definite population of people on earth. But, we all know that our number in 1600 is not our number in 1800 and today. If one dies for one to come back to life, then it follows that our number must be definite. Why do we have increasing population if reincarnation is real? Can one person come back as two or more individuals at the same time? Any seeming truth outside Jesus Christ is falsehood.

^^^ Because souls are reincarnating across and between many different planets and worlds.

^^^ are you saying that our increasing population means we are depleting the population of other planets. This is ridiculous. What you know is science; what you don't know is God.

Dereformer: ^^^ are you saying that our increasing population means we are depleting the population of other planets.

Yes: but this is not an issue because at all events there is an eternal stream of new souls issuing forth from the eternal source itself.

What you know is science; what you don't know is God.

Pleasse dont make assumptions.

This discussion is about re-incarnation - not science - and certainly not a debate on the existence of God.

benodic: @ deepsight

i had a lot of friends who were members and we used to have discussions about the whole grail message. after the reading the volume one, i ran into the ECK teachings and found what i was looking for. so since then i never really bothered so much with reading the remaining volumes. because any spiritual truth i want to have an understanding about i just tune in and ask and i get answers. so i stop bothering with reading so much books. may be later who knows i might try and read the remaining volumes.

I would like you to urgently read the Message - all of it - before coming to a conclusion.

The first cause of all life is the Almighty God which we know as the Sugmad. from the Sugmad issues forth the second cause which is God in expression which is known as the Holy Spirit or the ECK. the Holy Spirit is the essence of God which permeates all life and in it we live, move and have our being. the Holy Spirit can be seen as a Light and heard as a Sound. which was what happened during the Pentecost as reported in the Holy Bible. The Light and Sound now comes together in a matrix that souls can easily relate to and that is The Mahanta. The Mahanta is the Holy Spirit in form and it is a state of consciousness whose duty is to take Ready, matured souls back to the Sugmad.

now a Soul who has undergone spiritual purification, growth and maturity and has the highest amount of love for all life is now chosen by the Sugmad to become a Channel for the Mahanta Consciousness, to serve as the form that souls can easily relate to in their journey back to God. This soul becomes the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master. as the Living ECK Master, he teaches you in the outer and gives you spiritual exercises that links you up with the Holy spirit. and in the Inner he is also there as the Mahanta in a form that you can easily relate to, to further guide you in your journey back home to God if you need any help or guidance.

Are you sure this is not another attempt at deification of human spiritual leaders into God or gods? I instinctively recoil from any movement that I see attempting such. Indeed, I can tell you that the claims made about the identity of the writer of the Grail Message are the only reasons I stopped short of actually becoming a cross bearer.

Just how many people are we to accept as being divine manifestations of God? Your Living Eck Master/ Abd Ru Shin/ Jesus/ Guru Maharaji/ Olumba Olumba Obu +1000 others?

so He is always there as a spiritual adviser and does not force himself or ECK teachings on any soul except for those who request for it. and mind you He is not God. as no one can become God but we can become God-like expressing all the qualities of God and that is why God sent us down here to become matured souls.

You say he is not God, but he is the embodiment and channel of the mahanta consciousness from the sugmad. If that is not God, that is pretty close as one can get to being called a physical manifestation of God itself.

The Almighty God which we know as the Sugmad, is formless and unknowable.

This strongly resonates with me.

The HU is a universal name of God. it is the only name of God that does not belong to any language, religion or tribe. Eckankar does not lay claim to the HU. It is a prayer song that God has given to all souls to use in finding its way back to It. the power of the HU is in the vibration that it raises as you sing it with love for God. it starts a process of spiritual purification in you and opens your spiritual eyes to be able to see the light of God and opens your spiritual ears to hear the sound of God and the still small voice that is always there telling you how to live your life aright. It is sung in a long drawn out way with the out going breath: HUUUUUUU. sing it like that for 15 to 20 minutes at a sitting in the night and in the morning and watch your experiences.

Does this serve as a prayer, or connects the soul to the essence of God in creation?

When doing this, should one have meditation in mind, or can one project one's personal desires into the sound and acheive results therein? What kind of results are expected.

There are lots of benefits one gets from soul travel

Are you saying there are no people who have become mentally unstable as a result? None?

OK

Deep Sight:
^^^ Because souls are reincarnating across and between many different planets and worlds.

Do u need some1 2 tell u that u post is pointless and make no sense. Can u not understand from d simple reasoning and logic this guy Dereformer made here? Can u not use a little common sense? May be u should tel us which planet or world you are before coming here. Tel us about ur past in that planet since it is only u that have reincarnated? Believe me, u need some1 to guide u thru d pages of God's word because where u re getting ur informations and reasonings are not better than the bible.

Its so unfortunate how people has been carried away by the elementary things of the world and thru the so called false reasoning and inspirations.

This soul becomes the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master. as the Living ECK Master, he teaches you in the outer and gives you spiritual exercises that links you up with the Holy spirit. and in the Inner he is also there as the Mahanta in a form that you can easily relate to, to further guide you in your journey back home to God if you need any help or guidance.[img]http://www.filii.info/g.gif[/img]

^^^ How do you know this sir?

Deep Sight:
^^^ Because souls are reincarnating across and between many different planets and worlds.

Do u need some1 2 tell u that u post is pointless and make no sense. Can u not understand from d simple reasoning and logic this guy Dereformer made here? Can u not use a little common sense? May be u should tel us which planet or world you are before coming here. Tel us about ur past in that planet since it is only u that have reincarnated? Believe me, u need some1 to guide u thru d pages of God's word because where u re getting ur informations and reasonings are not better than the bible.

kaiwei: This soul becomes the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master. as the Living ECK Master, he teaches you in the outer and gives you spiritual exercises that links you up with the Holy spirit. and in the Inner he is also there as the Mahanta in a form that you can easily relate to, to further guide you in your journey back home to God if you need any help or guidance.[img]http://www.filii.info/g.gif[/img]

Can you prove these from the bible plz? And plz don't just tell me is not written in God's inspired word the bible. I eagerly await the quotation

^^^ Is the bible the end of the world? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Deep Sight:
^^^ Is the bible the end of the world? ? ? ? ? ? ?

I know you never believed the bible. I can only wonder where in particular did your religion gain her believe and teachings from. Why should you refer you religion as christianity why you never believed the bible and object to its contents. The bible is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight and for discipline in righteousness that the man of God may be competent and complete in every good work. The bible is every things, its older than you, can help you gain knowledge to shun the religion that made you think like scientist who never believed that there is a creator. Help yourself and find some1 to guide you thru the bible because because you are far from the truth but if you can't, plz keep it only to yourself and never convince others to shun the bible too because you definatly never know what you read in the bible when you told us here you have read it from start to finnish

The soul does not necessairly have to reincarnate into a human body. The SOul is Spiritual Energy. it can find and take place of any body, be it animal, insect, bird, plant, etc. or it can just lose itself to surroundings. The human population is incresing, but the population of other Earth inhabitants are decreasing. The same with spiritual Energy. A constant balance is always maintained.

@ Deep Sight

I would like you to urgently read the Message - all of it - before coming to a conclusion.

okay. you have given me an assignment i will try and carry it out.

Are you sure this is not another attempt at deification of human spiritual leaders into God or gods? I instinctively recoil from any movement that I see attempting such. Indeed, I can tell you that the claims made about the identity of the writer of the Grail Message are the only reasons I stopped short of actually becoming a cross bearer.

Just how many people are we to accept as being divine manifestations of God? Your Living Eck Master/ Abd Ru Shin/ Jesus/ Guru Maharaji/ Olumba Olumba Obu +1000 others?

mark you i never said that the Living Eck Master is a divine manifestation of God. to start with, the Living Eck Master is a Soul just like you and me who has undergone spiritual training and spiritual maturity to earn the title of the Living Eck Master and has become a pure channel to be able to wear the Mahanta Consciousness through which He is able to serve the Sugmad and his Mission is take all ready souls back to God. when he finishes his tenure as the living Eck Master, another soul steps in and continues from where he stops. so the issue of deification of the Living Eck Master does not arise. and worship of the Living Eck Master in any form is strictly forbidden in Eckankar.

You say he is not God, but he is the embodiment and channel of the mahanta consciousness from the sugmad. If that is not God, that is pretty close as one can get to being called a physical manifestation of God itself.

like i said before He is not God. but he is a pure channel for God. being a God-realized Soul does not make you God but it makes you a pure clear channel for God, fully exhibiting the qualities of God.and that is what he is training us to become too.

Does this serve as a prayer, or connects the soul to the essence of God in creation?

both. it can serve as a prayer and also connects soul to the essence of God.

When doing this, should one have meditation in mind, or can one project one's personal desires into the sound and acheive results therein? What kind of results are expected.

all you need is to have love and gratitude in your heart for God and for all Its Blessings in your life. the results you can expect is to see the light of God, to hear the Sound of God which can come in various ways. you can also have a soul travel experience. results depends on your current state of consciousness. The Holy Spirit knows you more than you know yourself and knows the level of experience you are ready for now and that is what you will experience

Are you saying there are no people who have become mentally unstable as a result? None?

none at all.