Aproko:

jesus christ said, if ye must pray, pray then like this - the lords prayer. (and thanks for saying it all over again)

The jumping up and down aside, one thing, please: is that the only place where Jesus dealt with the subject of prayer?

Jesus, in the book of Mathew (the Lord's prayer) implicitly stated that prayer is a two way communication between God and man. When we pray, we therefore must have the attitude that we are talking to God 'our father' and this has to be done with respect and good manner.If you want to discuss with your earthly father, it would look absurd if you approach him shouting and jumping in an inordinate manner.However, we must not forget that there may be cases whereby desperation may make one to shout/cry/weep (like Hannah (when asking for a child),Jesus (in Gethsemane) and Jacob (when he had to wrestle with an angel from God) but this does not usually happen.

As for the 'fire from heaven, fall down and die type of prayers', sometimes they are relevant if and only if one is absolutely sure that the devil/demons ae being addressed and not a fellow human.

However,we need to know that the best way to pray is to be led by the Spirit of God.

@goodguy,
thanks good guy for that response; i couldn't have said it better myself.
i have a few things to add about the subject of spiritual warfare which i'll chip in later today.

@aproko,
towards the end of my post i said;

Except of course you want to say that we are being decieved by our bibles. i'd oblige you.

and just as i expected, you did so! that's the easy way out you know, just say that the book of hebrew isnt valid.
However, since you yourself have admitted that you're not a christian; i wonder when the opinion of non-christians, rather than the bible, became the yardstick for determining how [i]christians [/i]should pray. Don't you think that is rather pompous or at best self-conceited? Cheers.

Thy Kingdom come - Acknowledge the 2nd coming of His Kingdom, in which the saints will reign eternally with Him.

Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven - Always ask for God's will to be done in your life (this is one of my regular and major prayer points).  Ask for His guidiance in all you do, so that your deeds will always be in accordance with His will.

I'D ADVISE U DONT LEAD PPLE ASTRAY WITH YOUR EXPLANATION. WE ARE SO LAZY SPIRITUALLY THAT WE DONT WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING ON THIS EARTH.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE WILL OF GOD IS. YOU FIRST OF STRIVE TO KNOW HIS WILL THEN U STRIVE TO LIVE ACCORDING TO THAT WILL

And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors - Ask for forgiveness of sins.  Ask him to wash away your iniquities and transgressions, as sins committed could really hinder one's prayers from being answered.

THE SAME LAZINESS AM TALKING ABOUT, YOU HAVE REMOVED THE OTHER PHRASE IN THE EXPLANATION  as we forgive our debtors by this we are telling GOD that HE shouldnt forgive us until we have forgiven those that hurt us. this should make u not hold grudge against ur neighbour

when Jesus got to the grave of Lazarus, the bible recorded that " . . and he cried in a LOUD voice":

all u do is just to be quoting the place convinient for u. i wud av loved to explain that but many pple wont understand moreover it wud take a whole day and wud provoke a lot of things.

but lets stop all this quoting and strive to understand the whole work.

am out.
lets pray aright from within out. it should be an experience not merely a recitation and repeatition of words

charka:

all u do is just to be quoting the place convinient for u. i would av loved to explain that but many people wont understand moreover it would take a whole day and would provoke a lot of things.

Oh dear me! If an explanation is going to take a whole day and provoke a lot of things, we can then understand why we're safer in the simplicity of the Word.

@ricadelide,

perhaps you didn't understand my answer. i said i was not christlike, because once in a while, i do fall short of being christlike. jesus christ was and remains an examplary human being dont you think? i repeat, i strive to be christlike it means unlike a lot of people, i dont pretend that i am super human, i learn about christ every day, and in a world that is filled with the good, the bad and the ugly, being christlike is more than declaring it, you must live it!!!christainity for me is a way of life and not a religion.

to the question am i a christain? again i say no.

jesus gave the lord's prayer, at least i saw that in my bible. and are you being deceived by your bibles? thats for you to answer my dear.

what i said and i say again is that if the writer of hebrew was not there when jesus christ was praying and the sweat was like drops of blood, how did he know? who told him?

jesus christ himself never wrote down anything!!!!!!mathew, mark, and luke were not there during the transfiguration, so how did they know about it? simple, they were told.

i the 'non christain' have not given any yardstick as to how christains should pray, i only said if jesus has given a model prayer why do i have to jump and shout?if that is seen as being pompous, hey thats your 2 cents. this is a forum for opinions afterall, but i know i'm one of the most humble people you'd ever meet.

@ charka,

charka:

I'D ADVISE You DONT LEAD PPLE ASTRAY WITH YOUR EXPLANATION. WE ARE SO LAZY SPIRITUALLY THAT WE DONT WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING ON THIS EARTH.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE WILL OF GOD IS. YOU FIRST OF STRIVE TO KNOW HIS WILL THEN You STRIVE TO LIVE ACCORDING TO THAT WILL

thank you!!

Hello again, Aproko

Aproko:

@goodguy,

am i a christain? NO. why? because as much as i try to live like christ, i find out that i am more human so to speak than he was on earth and some times i fall short of being called christlike. so am not christlike but striving to be one.

I guess we're in the same shoe here. But by religion, you're a still a Christian nonetheless.

Aproko:

have i read the book of hebrews? oh yes. do i make reference to it? not in my every day life, so i would say no.

So far you believe in some parts of Hebrews and apply them to your life, then there should be no basis to discard other parts of the same book, just because you want your arguments to be favoured.

Aproko:

and which is more importantant the message or the writer? both because the writer may not have been there when jesus whom he seeks to write about was praying, so i ask, where did he get his gist?

If the message is true, then whoever wrote it shouldn't be much of an issue. Moses wasn't present at the time of creation, but he's still regarded as the writer of Genesis. In any case, I guess your argument here seems to want to doubt the veracity of the book of Hebrews for the mere fact that the writer is unknown. But then again, read these verses and reconsider your stance:

2 Timothy 3:16 -
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

2 Peter 1:21 -
". . . but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

1 Thessalonians 2:13 -
"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."

Aproko:

if jesus had written anything down that would have been a different story, but when you are writing about aproko and yet you have never met aproko, the only question my dear good guy is how did you know? your name na aproko abi aproko na your sister?

I don't need to meet you to write about you. If I've gathered enough info about you from an infallible and reliable source, writing a whole book on you shouldn't be a difficult task.

Aproko:

jesus christ said, if ye must pray, pray then like this - the lords prayer. (and thanks for saying it all over again)

so why then do i have to 'jump up and down?'

Truly, Jesus never asked us to "jump up and down" while praying, just as He never commanded us to do a whole lot of things, such as closing our eyes to pray, crying while singing, using drumsets in church, wearing clothes to church, driving a car to church, or even having ceiling fans in our churches! My point? - It's not a matter of being commanded to do certain things or not. As I said before, the "jumping up and down" thing is just a mere expression of their ecstatic state at that very moment. And as much as some of us may find it disturbing atimes (myself included), we should not be too quick to castigate those that do their thing during prayers, especially as we ourselves, are still striving so hard to be Christ-like.

Regards.

Hi charka

charka:

I'D ADVISE You DONT LEAD PPLE ASTRAY WITH YOUR EXPLANATION. WE ARE SO LAZY SPIRITUALLY THAT WE DONT WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING ON THIS EARTH.

Point well noted. But please, note that I have not declared myself an authority over this subject, as I do not even see myself as such. I explained in the best way I could, and if you feel the need for any correction, that will be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the advice anyway.

charka:

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE WILL OF GOD IS. YOU FIRST OF STRIVE TO KNOW HIS WILL THEN You STRIVE TO LIVE ACCORDING TO THAT WILL

We really can't tell what the exact will of God is for us; that's why we have to pray for that will of His to manifest in our lives, so that we can live according to it.

charka:

THE SAME LAZINESS AM TALKING ABOUT, YOU HAVE REMOVED THE OTHER PHRASE IN THE EXPLANATION as we forgive our debtors by this we are telling GOD that HE shouldnt forgive us until we have forgiven those that hurt us. this should make u not hold grudge against your neighbour

I agree. You'll have to pardon me for that exclusion. Not that I didn't acknowledge it though, I only felt the need to explain just the essence of asking for forgiveness, since the latter part of the statement is already self-explanatory, I believe.

charka:

i would av loved to explain that but many people wont understand moreover it would take a whole day and would provoke a lot of things.

We would also have loved to read your explanation on this topic. I personally would want to read a kind explanation on the subject matter at hand, that will take a whole day to do. But really, what makes you think "many people" will not understand?

Looking forward to your reply.

Regards.

hi aproko,
ok, i have some time now.

Aproko:

am i a christain? NO. why? because as much as i try to live like christ, i find out that i am more human so to speak than he was on earth and some times i fall short of being called christlike. so am not christlike but striving to be one.

Aproko:

perhaps you didn't understand my answer. i said i was not christlike, because once in a while, i do fall short of being christlike. jesus christ was and remains an examplary human being don't you think? i repeat, i strive to be christlike it means unlike a lot of people, i don't pretend that i am super human, i learn about christ every day, and in a world that is filled with the good, the bad and the ugly, being christlike is more than declaring it, you must live it!!!christainity for me is a way of life and not a religion.

to the question am i a christain? again i say no.

sincerely, i really like your submission here and i do understand your answer; even though i seemed to use it against you earlier, it was just to drive home one point which obviously i didn't succeed at doing.
the point is 'christian' is a term first used by the people of antioch to describe believers or rather disciples Acts11;26. If one is a disciple, then he is a christian. if not, then one isnt. I'd try to explain what it means to be a 'christian' by chipping at some things you said.
First, you are not 'more human' than Jesus was; you just have a different nature than he had. Again; the book of Hebrews really adresses this; Heb.2;17,18
17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

Also Heb. 4;18,
"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin."

there are many other scriptures that point to the humanity of Jesus and he was indeed tempted in every way and went through more things than we ever go through especially in terms of suffering, yet He was without sin. And that is the issue, he was without sin.

Second, now you said some things which i'd address; you said; 'i strive to be christ-like' This is the whole point of my argument, an average human being (with the attendant normal sinful nature) cannot strive to be christ-like. No. We can never become Christ-like by striving; the only way to become Christ-like is by having Christ in you. that's the whole point of the message of the gospel.
Now i don't know if that seems like a trivial point to you, but it is actually not so. let me explain. the whole gospel message is summed up in this; "Christ IN you, the hope of glory". Not, "you LIKE christ, the hope of glory". Now, don't get me wrong; the goal of being a christian is to be christ-like, but the approach matters. God's approach is to get rid of everything that pertains to the human nature in us through death on the cross, and in its place, to have Christ be all in all.
that is the whole point of Gal. 2;20,
"I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me; and the life which I now live in the body I live through faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up to death on my behalf".
the I there is the sinful human nature. what the Holy spirit does is to crucify that nature in us by making use of the cross. In true Christians, the sinful nature no longer lives. So it is not a matter of effort or anything, it becomes a natural thing for Christ to live through us, rather than the unnatural thing for us to try to emulate Christ.
Third, those that call themselves Christians and live above sin are not 'pretending that they are superhuman' rather, they acknowledge the grace that has been given to them and live by it. Jesus came to raise the bar; and show us that without him in us, we CANNOT please God. that's why it has to be by faith. Let me quote a scripture in I john 3;9
"Whoever has been begotten of God does not practise sin, because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God". ( JN Darby translation)
what do you see when you see such a verse? You see an impossibility for the natural man. But for him who has the seed of God (christ) in him, he cannot continue to sin. that's what being a christian means, we have the seed of God in us.
i'm sorry for the long epistle; but this is the whole point in the faith. that's why i can say 'i am a christian'. Not because i don't have a sinful nature. No. but because i don't live by that nature - i make use of the cross to put to death the old creation and i live by the new nature of christ through the spirit. I'd advise you to really study Romans 6 - 8.
Or grab a copy of 'The Normal Christian Life' by Watchman Nee.

Now to the other issues you raised;

what i said and i say again is that if the writer of hebrew was not there when jesus christ was praying and the sweat was like drops of blood, how did he know? who told him?

jesus christ himself never wrote down anything!!!!!!mathew, mark, and luke were not there during the transfiguration, so how did they know about it? simple, they were told

this post is a bit funny but i'd address it. if they were told, does that mean they were lied to? let me drag this further; Luke 11 makes it clear that the Lord's prayer was given in response to a question by his disciples. Did John write the Lord's prayer? NO. and he was the only apostle to write a gospel. If we assume that these three writers were not among the disciples who asked him the question, the issue then remains; the Lord's prayer that you are hanging to so dearly; was it not also written by these second-hand witnesses? Were they not also told? So what makes the information in Hebrews less valid than that in the synoptic gospels? indeed the writer of Hebrews cleary addresses this point when he said in Heb. 2;3
"how shall we escape if we have been negligent of so great salvation, which, having had its commencement in being spoken of by the Lord, has been confirmed to us by those who have heard"
so are you then saying that those who confirmed it to them were lying?

The second issue is, I think you are missing the whole point of 'inspired'. The reason a book is said to be inspired is when the writer says things he couldn't have said except God told him. the books written by Moses; was he there when God created the heaven's; so how did he know what happened when he wasn't there? Of course, because God told him. that's the whole point. the writer of hebrews gave many nuggets that he couldn't have said unless inspired, because he was inspired.
On reading goodguy's post, i see he has addressed this second point very succintly above.

Now as regards the Lord's prayer; i'd go into that in more detail later.

I truly thank God for these gracious and carefully chosen words to add to my understanding of His Word. Both enquirers and answers have enriched me - and God bless una well-well.

@ ricadelide,

quite busy now, so i'll reply your post later, but i want you to think about this -

ricadelide is male. wether it is said on nairaland or koboland, ricadelide is a male and that is the truth. my point, the truth is universal, wether being spoken by a christain or a non christain as it were, now when we start to have distorted versions of a story, somebody must be missing something right?

the truth is universal, the lord's prayer which i happen to rely on has been said everywhere i go, therefore the lord's prayer must contain the truth as to how jesus taught us to pray while he walked the earth.

when we start to have different versions of thesame story, people are tempted to ask which is the truth.
when we have a problem with translation from hebrew to english, again i insist that some truth will be distorted. if you like you can say a word in the three nigerian languages and you would be rest assured that when it is being interpreted it will not come out thesame.

now this doesnt mean the writers of the bible were lied to, it simply means each has written things down as he understood it.

reading through all the posts we can clearly tell those who have been bought with the precious blood and those who go to "church" to show off their new outfits.

How will u raect when your son wants to flush your international passport that has a permanent residence visa to the U.K or canada?Will u say it gently 'son don't flush it' or will u stand up or shout and say it loud and clear 'son don't flush it'
The way someone that needs promotion at his place of work will be different from someone who needs urgent employment who has 6 children and 8months house rent to pay .
Your condition your needs determine how u pray atimes.
If u are just thanking God u don't need to jump up and down unlike someone that has an only child who is ill to the point of death.
Let us be carefull of what we say.
NO PASTOR WILL TELL HIS CONGREGATION THAT EXCEPT U JUMP UP AND DOWN YOUR PRAYERS WILL NOT BE HEARD OK? EVEN THE MFM THAT SOMEONE HAS MENTIONED.PEACE DO TAHT DAT SUITS U AND DONT NAIL OTHERS TO THE CROSS

How will u react if ur son wants to flush ur passport ?(trying to correct my mistakes above)
The way the person that needs promotion at his place of work will pray will be different from the person that needs urgent job who has 8months house rent to pay ,feed 6 children.
Peace of mind unto everybody .

Hello, Brethren,
Helpful Contributions thus far from everybody, including the very long "epistle". CONGRATULATIONS to all! However, PRAYER is a spiritual matter - a communication between Man and God. So, it should NOT be trivialized and subjected to what appeared like "personal attacks" between certain contributors that I've just read. Our Lord, Jesus Christ says in Matthew 7:7 that we should "Ask, and it shall be given unto you, Seek and you shall find; Knock and it shall be opened unto you". And for as long as one does these three - asking, seeking and knocking in His name, I believe that that's all what prayer entails. How individuals go about this may differ from one person to another; and that's purely personal. The Psalmist however, has peculiar ways to getting answers to his prayers; and it is thrilling to find this out in "Understanding the Psalms" at this link: http://www.lulu.com/content/750850. Perhaps, anyone interested can visit that link to read more.
Thanks.

spacegold.

i4serious:


Your condition your needs determine how u pray atimes.
If u are just thanking God u don't need to jump up and down unlike someone that has an only child who is ill to the point of death.
Let us be carefull of what we say.

.

am not even criticising any form of prayer but am only wondering how all of a sudden people stopped praying the they they used to pray before.
or are u saying in the old times, people didnt need urgent solutions to their problems.
well i still hold the opinion dat the darkness is still succeeding in blinding mankind

NO PASTOR WILL TELL HIS CONGREGATION THAT EXCEPT You JUMP UP AND DOWN YOUR PRAYERS WILL NOT BE HEARD OK? EVEN THE MFM THAT SOMEONE HAS MENTIONED.PEACE DO TAHT DAT SUITS You AND DONT NAIL OTHERS TO THE CROSS

a pastor has accused someone i know of being "evil" just because she was not shouting and stamping her feet in the church.

I just about lose my mind, when the preacher says: Let's pray.

Then starts talking to satan "Satan, take your hands off sister so and so", etc,etc.

If you are talking to God, praying, then why do you begin to pray to satan in the middle of your prayer?

That one is my pet peeve.

@otuwe,

otuwe:

a pastor has accused someone i know of being "evil" just because she was not shouting and stamping her feet in the church.

I don't think a pastor's over-reactions should be taken as standard practice among others. However, there are some answers in the Bible to other questions you have raised - which should help us all appreciate the blessing God has given to believers who may not be in our small denominations.


@Drusilla,

Drusilla:

Then starts talking to satan "Satan, take your hands off sister so and so", etc,etc.

If you are talking to God, praying, then why do you begin to pray to satan in the middle of your prayer?

I've also had to wonder about that as well. I think from what I've seen so far, prayer is a communication from man towards God alone. To even speak to Satan, in my humble opinion, is not prayer.

One may speak to bind and cast the enemy; but to address such speak to the devil while praying is not something that Scripture encourages.

Bari-Kade,

I don't even get why they would trust the "Father of lies", to do anything for them a Christian.

Following all that has been said so far about prayers.I have this to say,please let everybody work out his or her SALVATION.I don't think is your problem to want to imagine how pple pray. I can tell you that, its not in how you pray alone.But having the Right relationship with your maker that determine the answer to you prayers.

I concur with the submission below, This is nice enough for us to know how to approach God in our Prayers irrespective of the circumstances.


Jesus, in the book of Mathew (the Lord's prayer) implicitly stated that prayer is a two way communication between God and man. When we pray, we therefore must have the attitude that we are talking to God 'our father' and this has to be done with respect and good manner.If you want to discuss with your earthly father, it would look absurd if you approach him shouting and jumping in an inordinate manner.However, we must not forget that there may be cases whereby desperation may make one to shout/cry/weep (like Hannah (when asking for a child),Jesus (in Gethsemane) and Jacob (when he had to wrestle with an angel from God) but this does not usually happen.

As for the 'fire from heaven, fall down and die type of prayers', sometimes they are relevant if and only if one is absolutely sure that the devil/demons ae being addressed and not a fellow human.

However,we need to know that the best way to pray is to be led by the Spirit of God.

result should be the true test of any technique!

ilabor:

result should be the true test of any technique!

i feel you; but it doesn't work that way with God.
In this context, God is more interested in the process than the result, because the process teaches you how to relate with Him and helps you to learn and grow up into His image.
there are many people that get their results through ill means; yet they still get what they want.
Getting what you want does not exonerate you from the need to have gotten it the right way.
the way of a man is very important to God, not just the things a man has etc.
cheers.

RICADELIDE, [b][/b] i hope you are not trying to play God!

Prayer is a communication between you and God. If you pray anyhow and anyway and the word of your prayers follow biblical layout and you come to God with a pure heart, I don't think it matters if you jump up and down. You can pray like a gentleman with high sounding words and God would have no respect for you cos of your heart or you can beat your chest and cry out like a mad man for help cos you know he is the only one you can look up to and God answers.

you don't need to jump up and down before God will be able to answer your prayer. You don't need to speak in a magnificent microphone before you can be heard by God. You don't need to to meet a pastor before your prayer can be answered by God.  You don't need to shout and shout before your prayer can be answered.
Take this illustration:
Assuming you are a father and you have a son, he is seriously in need of new clothes and shoes, so he comes to you and ask you to buy clothes and shoes for him. By coming to you, will it be appropriate that the child will shout to you " DADDY, BUY ME CLOTHES AND SHOES, DADDY BUY ME CLOTHES AND SHOES", even if you know that it is appropriate for you to buy that, you wont buy it because that is not how to ask. Won't you? That's just the same thing to God, the Bible says in Matthew 6:2 , "that the have already have their reward", which simply means he wont answer them. 
Another thing is that repetition is not for God, you don't need to say things allover again everytime you are praying. How will you feel according to the illustation above if your child should continue to repeat that saying everysecond that Daddy I say buy me a cloth, Daddy I say buy me a cloth, buy me a cloth, buy me a cloth, , wont you send that child away? That's just it. God doesn't want repetition in the book of Matthew 6:7, Do not say the same things over and over again, "

otuwe is definitely not a born again christian, The bible says thta the violent that it by force, when fire flew upon the disciplines of Jesus in the upon room , do u think it was just a redition of "our father who hath in heaven'? just shows that u do not belive

Anybody that has experiences the presence of the holy ghost knows that u dont just pray "our father who hath in heaven", THATS for beginners, Jesus said we should pray like that until the COMFORTER(HOLY GHOST) COMES, read ur bible new beeee

method of praying is not fixed, people have different methods, we dont have to be in the same rythm ok.!

method of praying is not fixed, people have different methods, we don't have to be in the same rythm ok.!
i feel you! prayer is a personal responsibility and the communication channel is unique to the individual. its like your phone number.

MP007:

method of praying is not fixed, people have different methods, we don't have to be in the same rythm ok.!

ok.!

lets look closely at bamdil's contribution,it's simple and biblical.if we are to relate with God, we must do it in his ways and how do we know his ways-refer to his word in the bible.if you know his word,you will understand that, though we necessary do not have to be in same rhyme, there are basic underlying principles and foundations of prayers that must be followed.