Maximus69:


Well it's like Michael and his angels war with the dragon! Revelations 12:7

He is the Prince standing for God's people! Daniel 12:1 compare to Isaiah 9:6 Prince of Peace

Michael is the archangel {Jude 9} whose in voice Jesus spoke! 1Thessalonian 4:16

I'm sure all these will lead to endless arguments so just leave it,

Jesus WAS God at a point in time just as Moses also was a God at a point in time. Exodus 7:1

But from day one till now and forever, Jesus IS God's son! Matthew 16:16

Jesus as God's son is a fact of the work of redemption and man's salvation to be completed, it is not a fact of his divinity. In divinity, there is no son. He is God. When you read FATHER, SON, HOLY GHOST, they are facts of God's redemptive plan for man. God became a son (born of man) for man's salvation. You must understand bible language. Jesus was never an angel except you agreed also that God is an angel

hupernikao:


Jesus as God's son is a fact of the work of redemption and man's salvation to be completed, it is not a fact of his divinity. In divinity, there is no son. He is God. When you read FATHER, SON, HOLY GHOST, they are facts of God's redemptive plan for man. God became a son (born of man) for man's salvation. You must understand bible language. Jesus was never an angel except you agreed also that God is an angel

Whatever Sir, WHATEVER!

Janosky:

" The first born of every creature" col1:15 has nothing to do with fictitious claim of preeminence.

"The beginning of the creation by God" Rev3:14 has nothing to do with preeminence..

It's evil to lie that "in the beginning.." (John 1 or
"the beginning" (in Matt 19:4 and Rev3:14) means "the ruler"..

Make una Trinitarians dey fear God Almighty,Yahweh .....
Jesus Christ is God's first creature...
The screenshots speaks for itself..

Firstly, you need to calm down. Stop making assumptions. I am not here to discuss Trinity with you except if it calls for that. Try keep focus on your discussion with me.

Colossians 1:15 must be read in context. It is a bad attitude when you lift a verse out of its context. A verse of a scripture must derive its life from surrounding text. That is how to understand meaning of words. You dont quote a verse and make it mean what it doesnt mean when read together.

If i say for example

verse 1 Ade kicked the bucket yesterday
verse 2 because he was angry with the lawyer
verse 3 he has been charged to court since

compare to this other statement.
verse 1 Ade kicked the bucket yesterday
verse 2 And he was taken to the morgue this morning
verse 3 After examining him.

The statement "Ade kicked the bucket" must derive its meaning from its surrounding not lifting it and give your own meaning.

This is exactly what you have done to those scriptures you quoted.

In Bible exegesis, one key rule is to obey contextual meaning. Context they say is king. Your stand will fail both contextual and morphological test of that verse.

The context of Col 1 is below.

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Observe first: the word FIRSTBORN was used twice. vs 15, vs 18.
Now observe its surrounding text in verse 16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Notice the usage of ALL THINGS CREATED BY HIM. This is a common term used for Jesus (John 1:3-4) also used that.

All things will mean all inclusive, angels, man, animals etc. Everything created by his. A cause cannot become the caused. If he created all things, that exempt him from creation. If he is created, then all things were not created by him. You cant use all things and exempt Jesus if he created all things. If you read that God created all things, will you consider that God must have been created too? God created all the heavens and earth and all their host. That is creation. And if that includes Jesus, them Jesus didnt create all things and this verse and other verses claiming that will be false.

Observe how John put it

John 1
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

You can be at the beginning and still be created. That means that is not the beginning. The beginning will mean before all things, and if Jesus is created, then he cant be from the beginning. He was with God in the beginning will exempt him from creation.

verse 3 repeated ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM. Observe the next word WITHOUT HIM WAS ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE

That zero all created being to Jesus. He cant be a created being if he created all things. That is an error of interpretation and if care is not taken you will embrace extra biblical writings to support your wrong teaching else, there is no where you can point to as the beginning of Jesus' divinity.

Now to FIRSTBORN.
I have addressed this yesterday, you may need to check that again. The word used here is prototokos and you cant carry its meaning out of its context.

I will give you all its usage in the NT-KJV

Mat 1:25
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn G4416 son: and he called his name JESUS.

Luk 2:7
And she brought forth her firstborn G4416 son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn G4416 among many brethren.

Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn G4416 of every creature:

Col 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn G4416 from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten G4416 into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Heb 11:28
Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn G4416 should touch them.

Heb 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, G4416 which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten G4416 of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Note, In all its usage 9 usage, 8 referred to Jesus. 2 referred to his natural birth, 4 obviously showed his resurrection from the dead, 1 is what you are contending.

Now, observe the usage of prototokos is not always meaning birth, hence the firstborn from the dead, is not about birth but referring to a position, the first to come from the dead (resurrected and never die again).

I will also give you Septuagint usage in Hebrews scriptures.

Prototokos was used 110 times in Hebrews scriptures, i will give you the one that address this point.

Exodus 4:22-23
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

The word firstborn was used twice here and are translated as prototokos. But you must derive their meaning from the statement.

Israel My Firstborn (prototokos):
God referred to Israel as his first son, firstborn. Of course, we know that Israel wasnt born or created first and this isnt talking about order of creation.

What then was God saying.
We could see in the scriptures that Israel was the first called, the one who represented God's plan for humanity. All nations are to be blessed through them. Hence this implies they are the first from God, that is first to be chosen of God. Speaking about position not birth. Just compare, Jesus as firstborn from the dead: that is the first to come from it.

2. I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn (prototokos):

This is obviously speaking about the first child of the Egyptian, hence their first issue.

Therefore, the meaning of prototokos must be derived from its context not by assumptions.

Also see how it was used for David.

Psalms 89
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Referring to David. Of cause this is not birth or creation but speaking about the first to come, to be approved of God, this is in authority.

Back to Colossians 1
The context of Col 1 is clear, the created all things, hence he is over all things.

The last thing you should observe is in the Greek text of verse 15.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως·

Now, observe that the word "of" was not in the original. It was an insertion to explain.
The word every is the word (pas). it means each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything. Hence the verse by original should read

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn () every creature:

It will be a bad job for a translator to neglect context and insert a word he feels suitable.
You can hardly see the word "of" stands alone in Greek text. It derives its meaning in next text. Hence words, like of, over, on, for, etc are usually based on contextual meaning .

In this case now, the next verse should show you what is best preposition to use for ALL/EVERY CREATION .

verse 16-17
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

If he is talking about his uthority and pre-eminent in 16-17, then 15 couldnt have taken a different tangent. The reasons you see other translation uses over in place of "of" hence,

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OVER every creature:

That is exactly his position using the body of scriptures.

Lastly, you see. Honesty is key in bible interpretation. It doesnt take my anything to accept your stand if you have scriptures to explain it. I am open to bible doctrine. But when you dont, it is not good to start skimming around, and trying to use a scriptures to counter volumes of scriptures.

Just as you see the usage of prototokos (firstborn) all referring to same thing about Christ but because there is just one single one that needed more explanation due to its obscurity, you held unto that neglecting the other visible evidence.

You cant explain scriptures from point of obscurity. You must be able to show from the volume of verses available that has clear doctrines, teachings, events in the scriptures concerning what you are saying to support your position first, before treating any obscure verses. That is how not to fall into error.

Maximus69:


Whatever Sir, WHATEVER!

It cant be whatever. The scriptures has a stand, a singular standpoint and that is what must be seen and preached. The reasons we many walk in confusion today, many not at pleased with Christianity today is because we allow "whatever" is preached.
The author and writers of the scriptures have an intent, a singular intent that the Holy Ghost revealed to them, that is our duty today to find, to search and to preach. Any deviation from that will lead to error and its an error in itself.

Cases like this calls for further studies and I will ask you to be open to and do further study in the said topic.
Thank you.

hupernikao:


It cant be whatever. The scriptures has a stand, a singular standpoint and that is what must be seen and preached. The reasons we many walk in confusion today, many not at pleased with Christianity today is because we allow "whatever" is preached.
The author and writers of the scriptures have an intent, a singular intent that the Holy Ghost revealed to them, that is our duty today to find, to search and to preach. Any deviation from that will lead to error and its an error in itself.

Cases like this calls for further studies and I will ask you to be open to and do further study in the said topic.
Thank you.

Jesus is angel Michael, even if you study from now till eternity, Jesus will still be Michael!

The evidence is seen in the achievement of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide as we have preserved the one and only TRUE Christian Organization with all the qualities of God's holy spirit.

But if you're not seeing this, it's OK go out there and PREACH also TEACH just as Jesus commanded his followers!

All these lengthy epistles just because of the TRINITY!

Ordinarily quoting one Bible verse where the word TRINITY is written will do, that's all!

hupernikao:


Firstly, you need to calm down. Stop making assumptions. I am not here to discuss Trinity with you except if it calls for that. Try keep focus on your discussion with me.

Colossians 1:15 must be read in context. It is a bad attitude when you lift a verse out of its context. A verse of a scripture must derive its life from surrounding text. That is how to understand meaning of words. You dont quote a verse and make it mean what it doesnt mean when read together.

If i say for example

verse 1 Ade kicked the bucket yesterday
verse 2 because he was angry with the lawyer
verse 3 he has been charged to court since

compare to this other statement.
verse 1 Ade kicked the bucket yesterday
verse 2 And he was taken to the morgue this morning
verse 3 After examining him.

The statement "Ade kicked the bucket" must derive its meaning from its surrounding not lifting it and give your own meaning.

This is exactly what you have done to those scriptures you quoted.

In Bible exegesis, one key rule is to obey contextual meaning. Context they say is king. Your stand will fail both contextual and morphological test of that verse.

The context of Col 1 is below.

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Observe first: the word FIRSTBORN was used twice. vs 15, vs 18.
Now observe its surrounding text in verse 16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Notice the usage of ALL THINGS CREATED BY HIM. This is a common term used for Jesus (John 1:3-4) also used that.

All things will mean all inclusive, angels, man, animals etc. Everything created by his. A cause cannot become the caused. If he created all things, that exempt him from creation. If he is created, then all things were not created by him. You cant use all things and exempt Jesus if he created all things. If you read that God created all things, will you consider that God must have been created too? God created all the heavens and earth and all their host. That is creation. And if that includes Jesus, them Jesus didnt create all things and this verse and other verses claiming that will be false.

Observe how John put it

John 1
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

You can be at the beginning and still be created. That means that is not the beginning. The beginning will mean before all things, and if Jesus is created, then he cant be from the beginning. He was with God in the beginning will exempt him from creation.

verse 3 repeated ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM. Observe the next word WITHOUT HIM WAS ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE

That zero all created being to Jesus. He cant be a created being if he created all things. That is an error of interpretation and if care is not taken you will embrace extra biblical writings to support your wrong teaching else, there is no where you can point to as the beginning of Jesus' divinity.

Now to FIRSTBORN.
I have addressed this yesterday, you may need to check that again. The word used here is prototokos and you cant carry its meaning out of its context.

I will give you all its usage in the NT-KJV

Mat 1:25
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn G4416 son: and he called his name JESUS.

Luk 2:7
And she brought forth her firstborn G4416 son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn G4416 among many brethren.

Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn G4416 of every creature:

Col 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn G4416 from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten G4416 into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Heb 11:28
Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn G4416 should touch them.

Heb 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, G4416 which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten G4416 of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Note, In all its usage 9 usage, 8 referred to Jesus. 2 referred to his natural birth, 4 obviously showed his resurrection from the dead, 1 is what you are contending.

Now, observe the usage of prototokos is not always meaning birth, hence the firstborn from the dead, is not about birth but referring to a position, the first to come from the dead (resurrected and never die again).

I will also give you Septuagint usage in Hebrews scriptures.

Prototokos was used 110 times in Hebrews scriptures, i will give you the one that address this point.

Exodus 4:22-23
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

The word firstborn was used twice here and are translated as prototokos. But you must derive their meaning from the statement.

Israel My Firstborn (prototokos):
God referred to Israel as his first son, firstborn. Of course, we know that Israel wasnt born or created first and this isnt talking about order of creation.

What then was God saying.
We could see in the scriptures that Israel was the first called, the one who represented God's plan for humanity. All nations are to be blessed through them. Hence this implies they are the first from God, that is first to be chosen of God. Speaking about position not birth. Just compare, Jesus as firstborn from the dead: that is the first to come from it.

2. I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn (prototokos):

This is obviously speaking about the first child of the Egyptian, hence their first issue.

Therefore, the meaning of prototokos must be derived from its context not by assumptions.

Also see how it was used for David.

Psalms 89
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Referring to David. Of cause this is not birth or creation but speaking about the first to come, to be approved of God, this is in authority.

Back to Colossians 1
The context of Col 1 is clear, the created all things, hence he is over all things.

The last thing you should observe is in the Greek text of verse 15.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως·

Now, observe that the word "of" was not in the original. It was an insertion to explain.
The word every is the word (pas). it means each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything. Hence the verse by original should read

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn () every creature:

It will be a bad job for a translator to neglect context and insert a word he feels suitable.
You can hardly see the word "of" stands alone in Greek text. It derives its meaning in next text. Hence words, like of, over, on, for, etc are usually based on contextual meaning .

In this case now, the next verse should show you what is best preposition to use for ALL/EVERY CREATION .

verse 16-17
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

If he is talking about his uthority and pre-eminent in 16-17, then 15 couldnt have taken a different tangent. The reasons you see other translation uses over in place of "of" hence,

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OVER every creature:

That is exactly his position using the body of scriptures.

Lastly, you see. Honesty is key in bible interpretation. It doesnt take my anything to accept your stand if you have scriptures to explain it. I am open to bible doctrine. But when you dont, it is not good to start skimming around, and trying to use a scriptures to counter volumes of scriptures.

Just as you see the usage of prototokos (firstborn) all referring to same thing about Christ but because there is just one single one that needed more explanation due to its obscurity, you held unto that neglecting the other visible evidence.

You cant explain scriptures from point of obscurity. You must be able to show from the volume of verses available that has clear doctrines, teachings, events in the scriptures concerning what you are saying to support your position first, before treating any obscure verses. That is how not to fall into error.

Maximus69:


Jesus is angel Michael, even if you study from now till eternity, Jesus will still be Michael!

The evidence is seen in the achievement of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide as we have preserved the one and only TRUE Christian Organization with all the qualities of God's holy spirit.

But if you're not seeing this, it's OK go out there and PREACH also TEACH just as Jesus commanded his followers!

What you put up there is called Eisegesis (the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas). Compare to Exegesis.

Firstly, I have asked you for scriptures but you have none, except the one you want to wrestle in which i have given you the explanation. It is wrong when you dont have prove and also seen scriptural evidences and explanation of others and still neglect the facts been discussed. And i have given you privilege of words severally to give me any scripture or verse or explanation or events that turn Jesus to Micheal (Angel), you have none, yet you clanged to it.

Secondly, you wrote, i quote

The evidence is seen in the achievement of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide as we have preserved the one and only TRUE Christian Organization

How the discussion of the divinity of Christ led to this is what i dont understand. Is there no scripture again that we now use logic to make scriptural conclusion? It is quite funny how human "achievement/experience" is what you want me to use to validate God's word. Very sad. This is the root of many error today. But this is not my discussion here and try not to deviate. There are many groups out there using bible, having achievement but never in the Will of God nor teaching the scriptures aright. The scripture is my authority, hence that is what i can hold on to.

But as you cling to your dogma even in the face of your Eisegesis, ensure you give room for further study and not boxed yourself in interpretation that has no foundation in the Bible.

Maximus69:
All these lengthy epistles just because of the TRINITY!

Ordinarily quoting one Bible verse where the word TRINITY is written will do, that's all!

This is just straw-man.

I am not sure i can help such distractions, if you see my defense as "lengthy epistles", it is because it is the bible way and that is how i am trained: to explain properly. Christians should adhere to bible ways of handling issues including bible explanation. Stephen in the bible used 3 good chapters to explain Jesus, Paul wrote two big books to the Corinthians containing at least 13 chapters each. Jesus taught over 5000 people for over 6 hours till they hungered, Paul taught for over 12 hours at a go in Ephesus till one fell and died yet raised to life again. I will be a bad follower of Christ if i cant follow such examples. You dont take doctrine with levity and short soundbite defense. It is serious work.

But I know it is a strange thing these days among many to be able to read "long epistles", yet they want to contribute to all discussions. Likewise it is "anathema" this age to dedicate time to explain indept, biblical concept but easy to drop snippet due to laziness. I cant help that. All i required of you is to try and read them no matter how long, that is when you can be able to understand and communicate back properly with scriptures.

Lastly, I have told you severally, that my discussion with you here is not on Trinity, you are the one trying to put that in my words. Our discussion is on divinity of Christ, who he is in divinity. That is the focus. And if my answers and explanation tend to debunk your believe or disbelieve in Trinity, then i cant help you, the scriptures has the authority.

hupernikao:


What you put up there is called Eisegesis (the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas). Compare to Exegesis.

Firstly, I have asked you for scriptures but you have none, except the one you want to wrestle in which i have given you the explanation. It is wrong when you dont have prove and also seen scriptural evidences and explanation of others and still neglect the facts been discussed. And i have given you privilege of words severally to give me any scripture or verse or explanation or events that turn Jesus to Micheal (Angel), you have none, yet you clanged to it.

Secondly, you wrote, i quote

The evidence is seen in the achievement of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide as we have preserved the one and only TRUE Christian Organization

How the discussion of the divinity of Christ led to this is what i dont understand. Is there no scripture again that we now use logic to make scriptural conclusion? It is quite funny how human "achievement/experience" is what you want me to use to validate God's word. Very sad. This is the root of many error today. But this is not my discussion here and try not to deviate. There are many groups out there using bible, having achievement but never in the Will of God nor teaching the scriptures aright. The scripture is my authority, hence that is what i can hold on to.

But as you cling to your dogma even in the face of your Eisegesis, ensure you give room for further study and not boxed yourself in interpretation that has no foundation in the Bible.

I've told you that i'm not interested in arguing over the matter, you quoted Bible verse that never specifically say "Jesus is God" and started making explanations in support of your TRINITY doctrines.

I said my own conclusion is that Jesus is angel Michael the archangel, and i did just exactly what you did.

But to cut the long story short, just quote where the Bible plainly say

"Jesus IS God"

Or "God is three in one person"

Or just quote where the word TRINITY is written in the Bible.

That's all!

hupernikao:


This is just straw-man.

I am not sure i can help such distractions, if you see my defense as "lengthy epistles", it is because it is the bible way and that is how i am trained: to explain properly. Christians should adhere to bible ways of handling issues including bible explanation. Stephen in the bible used 3 good chapters to explain Jesus, Paul wrote two big books to the Corinthians containing at least 13 chapters each. Jesus taught over 5000 people for over 6 hours till they hungered, Paul taught for over 12 hours at a go in Ephesus till one fell and died yet raised to life again. I will be a bad follower of Christ if i cant follow such examples. You dont take doctrine with levity and short soundbite defense. It is serious work.

But I know it is a strange thing these days among many to be able to read "long epistles", yet they want to contribute to all discussions. Likewise it is "anathema" this age to dedicate time to explain indept, biblical concept but easy to drop snippet due to laziness. I cant help that. All i required of you is to try and read them no matter how long, that is when you can be able to understand and communicate back properly with scriptures.

Lastly, I have told you severally, that my discussion with you here is not on Trinity, you are the one trying to put that in my words. Our discussion is on divinity of Christ, who he is in divinity. That is the focus. And if my answers and explanation tend to debunk your believe or disbelieve in Trinity, then i cant help you, the scriptures has the authority.

Nowhere in the Bible that says "Jesus IS God"
What the Bible says is that Jesus was CREATED Proverbs 8:22
He is the First born Colossians 1:15

All these indicates that Jesus was created by someone greater.

As for Michael, he is the Prince standing as a signal for God's people! Daniel 12:1

Jesus is the Prince of Peace! Isaiah 9:6

Isaiah prophesied that this Prince will train people to stop making use of weapons and settle all the differences causing racism amongst humans! Isaiah 2:2-4

Today Jehovah's Witnesses have eradicated racism in their midst and none of them carries weapons no more!

That's why i believe they're the one and only TRUE Christian Organization today!

Jesus prayed fervently to his father because the task seems impossible for his few Jewish followers to accomplish! John 17:20-23

Today i'm a living witness to this facts, so your pigheadedness in adhering what your religion point to you in the Bible doesn't make you differ from Muslims, Buddhists, Judaists and co who just hold on to what they were taught in their various so called holy books with nothing to show as evidence of the fulfilment of what their religious books teaches!

Maximus69:


I've told you that i'm not interested in arguing over the matter, you quoted Bible verse that never specifically say "Jesus is God" and started making explanations in support of your TRINITY doctrines.

I said my own conclusion is that Jesus is angel Michael the archangel, and i did just exactly what you did.

But to cut the long story short, just quote where the Bible plainly say

"Jesus IS God"

Or "God is three in one person"

Or just quote where the word TRINITY is written in the Bible.

That's all!

My Trinity doctrine?
You may need to re-read all i have shared with you. Its distraction when you bring trinity to this discussion like i told you. We are discussing Christ divinity not trinity, get that clear. If you want to discuss trinity why not open a thread then we can have a proper discussion on that.

Here, what i addressed is the fact that Jesus is not Michael (an angel), and was not created. That was clear in the scriptures as i have well explained earlier. And if one is not created then i imagine the class you will put such being. Man? Angel? God? or what?

Bible expression of Jesus is clear on his divinity.

Maximus69:


Nowhere in the Bible that says "Jesus IS God"
What the Bible says is that Jesus was CREATED Proverbs 8:22
He is the First born Colossians 1:15

All these indicates that Jesus was created by someone greater.

As for Michael, he is the Prince standing as a signal for God's people! Daniel 12:1

Jesus is the Prince of Peace! Isaiah 9:6

Isaiah prophesied that this Prince will train people to stop making use of weapons and settle all the differences causing racism amongst humans! Isaiah 2:2-4

Today Jehovah's Witnesses have eradicated racism in their midst and none of them carries weapons no more!

That's why i believe they're the one and only TRUE Christian Organization today!

Jesus prayed fervently to his father because the task seems impossible for his few Jewish followers to accomplish! John 17:20-23

Today i'm a living witness to this facts, so your pigheadedness in adhering what your religion point to you in the Bible doesn't make you differ from Muslims, Buddhists, Judaists and co who just hold on to what they were taught in their various so called holy books with nothing to show as evidence of the fulfillment of what their religious books teaches!

Why getting emotional. Calm down. The wrath of man does not work God's righteousness or validation. What we need here is scriptural evidence not emotional sentiments. If you like, let the whole world attend your group, it doesnt still validate it as being in God's Will. Using human standard to prove God's acceptability is sad. So, leave sentiment out. I ma not discussing Jehovah Witnesses here, we are discussing bible and that should be your focus.

Also, see, there are many holes in your explanation and dogma, but i wont go further showing you that since it is obvious you are yet to even check the one i have written and explained. But know that your concept cant start the test of true bible study except you turn it to emotional discussion.

It is sad that you are only going in circles since you dont want to accept the scriptures on its face value. The reason you kept going round on verses i have already debunked and cleared for you. I cant be going in circles with you. When you are calm, go over again all i wrote, they will be there for you. Go over and compare patiently with your dogma to help you leave your assumptions and see the truth.

hupernikao:


My Trinity doctrine?
You may need to re-read all i have shared with you. Its distraction when you bring trinity to this discussion like i told you. We are discussing Christ divinity not trinity, get that clear. If you want to discuss trinity why not open a thread then we can have a proper discussion on that.

Here, what i addressed is the fact that Jesus is not Michael (an angel), and was not created. That was clear in the scriptures as i have well explained earlier. And if one is not created then i imagine the class you will put such being. Man? Angel? God? or what?

Bible expression of Jesus is clear on his divinity.

He was created! Proverbs 8:22
He is an angel!

hupernikao:


Why getting emotional. Calm down. The wrath of man does not work God's righteousness or validation. What we need here is scriptural evidence not emotional sentiments. If you like, let the whole world attend your group, it doesnt still validate it as being in God's Will. Using human standard to prove God's acceptability is sad. So, leave sentiment out. I ma not discussing Jehovah Witnesses here, we are discussing bible and that should be your focus.

Also, see, there are many holes in your explanation and dogma, but i wont go further showing you that since it is obvious you are yet to even check the one i have written and explained. But know that your concept cant start the test of true bible study except you turn it to emotional discussion.

It is sad that you are only going in circles since you dont want to accept the scriptures on its face value. The reason you kept going round on verses i have already debunked and cleared for you. I cant be going in circles with you. When you are calm, go over again all i wrote, they will be there for you. Go over and compare patiently with your dogma to help you leave your assumptions and see the truth.

You can't debunk what is written, you can only provide vivid evidence to support your interpretation!

Jesus quoted the scriptures just as the Pharisees also quoted the scriptures, but Jesus backed his interpretation with vivid activities!

So your interpretation can't debunk what i'm quoting from the scriptures just as mine can't debunk yours. But with activities marking the fulfilment of what you're quoting, your interpretation can be authenticated!

Maximus69:


He was created! Proverbs 8:22
He is an angel!

Don't be dropping snippet here please. Why not take time to explain and if you can't then go and do further reading till you can defend your point. I can't be the one explaining scriptures for you over and over here with you just dropping verses without explanation.

The verse you dropped now amazed me. As I have read it over 3 times and also read from chapter 7 to Chapter 9 maybe I will see references to Jesus. But I see none. How you come about this as Jesus is amazing. Can you explain Sir with scriptural backing.

Maximus69:


You can't debunk what is written, you can only provide vivid evidence to support your interpretation!

Jesus quoted the scriptures just as the Pharisees also quoted the scriptures, but Jesus backed his interpretation with vivid activities!

So your interpretation can't debunk what i'm quoting from the scriptures just as mine can't debunk yours. But with activities marking the fulfilment of what you're quoting, your interpretation can be authenticated!

Wrong interpretation of scriptures have been even before Jesus' time. Proper context and exegesis will also shed light to scripture. You can't wake up one day and form a concept in your head using scriptures then claim it can't be debunked.

You need to go and study again your doctrine on Jesus divinity. You have given no point at all till now that Jesus was created and was an angel. No point. The bible lessons has over 31,102 verse and over 10,000 concept explained. Yet with all these you couldn't have a single concept or explanation to back up your points and you can only point to just one/two seemingly obscured verses out of over 31,102 to hold a point. Yes there are several scriptures and biblical concepts pointing to Christ divinity as God that you neglected. You are not trying at all.

I doubt you take the scriptures as authority. If not you won't be arguing this again after pointing you to your error.

Nezero:
The explanation you give any part of the Bible should correlate with other parts.


Don't interpret in isolation. Jesus himself said who he is. He prayed to God. He died. He was sent.


You are free to believe whatever you want, but Jesus has a warning for anyone who stumbles others.

Matthew 18:16
"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

People's lives depend on what they believe. Everyone will be responsible for his own beliefs. Just as the serpent deceived Eve. Eve wasn't spared the consequences.

Is Jesus Christ the Word of God?

hupernikao:


You cant explain scriptures from point of obscurity. You must be able to show from the volume of verses available that has clear doctrines, teachings, events in the scriptures concerning what you are saying to support your position first, before treating any obscure verses. That is how not to fall into error.

Learn to keep your posts concise. Otherwise you risk losing readers interest.

Good points by the way.

Maximus69:


He was created! Proverbs 8:22
He is an angel!

Yes ooooo.
Gbagam !!!!

Proverbs 8:22, to verses 30
“Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works"

Who is personified as Wisdom..?
1 Cor 1:24,30 , Jesus Christ is the Wisdom of Proverbs 8:22-30
"The first born of every creature" Col1:15,Rev3:14.


Proverbs 8:22 is a SOLID PROOF "the beginning of creation by God" in Rev3:14 should NEVER be mistranslated as "the ruler of creation" in many Trinitarians Bibles.


If you claim Wisdom is not a person in Proverbs8:22, then you are also FALSELY claiming that "the Word" of John 1:1 is not a person...
(Trinitarians,una can't shift this goalpost)

Proverbs 8:22-30 , the personified Wisdom was created & was working with God.
Two entities , not one.
John 1:1,two entities,not one.
Ton TOV Theon "the only True God" (John 17:3. 20:17) and Theos (Greek > a god /God).
TOV Theon is NOT Jesus Christ..
In the Bible, Jesus NEVER used Tov Theon to speak about himself.. John 17:3. 14:1 .20:17


Jehovah CREATED "the first born of every creature" ,his son ,(Col1:15) to work with Jehovah to create other things > Col 1:16.
Trinitarians,i dey ask una :
Did Jesus create his Father? No ,at all...

Therefore, (Greek Dia) by means of, THROUGH Jesus, "the first born of every creature" working with the Father, other things were created. Col 1:16.. John 1:3. Hebrews 1:2
The God created Theos (man , angels,Jesus) in His image.

hupernikao:


Wrong interpretation of scriptures have been even before Jesus' time. Proper context and exegesis will also shed light to scripture. You can't wake up one day and form a concept in your head using scriptures then claim it can't be debunked.

You need to go and study again your doctrine on Jesus divinity. You have given no point at all till now that Jesus was created and was an angel. No point. The bible lessons has over 31,102 verse and over 10,000 concept explained. Yet with all these you couldn't have a single concept or explanation to back up your points and you can only point to just one/two seemingly obscured verses out of over 31,102 to hold a point. Yes there are several scriptures and biblical concepts pointing to Christ divinity as God that you neglected. You are not trying at all.

I doubt you take the scriptures as authority. If not you won't be arguing this again after pointing you to your error.

Come on the book Bible consist of 66 little books written by 40 different writers (all men) later divided into 1189 chapters and 31,200 verses!

So when you see a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization quote a text, we know what we are saying.

We're only interested in people who want to learn, but once we discover you're not the type we just drop the point with the quote and leave you!

hupernikao:


Don't be dropping snippet here please. Why not take time to explain and if you can't then go and do further reading till you can defend your point. I can't be the one explaining scriptures for you over and over here with you just dropping verses without explanation.

The verse you dropped now amazed me. As I have read it over 3 times and also read from chapter 7 to Chapter 9 maybe I will see references to Jesus. But I see none. How you come about this as Jesus is amazing. Can you explain Sir with scriptural backing.

Try reading it again from verse 22~ 31 but this time carefully and thorough meditation!

Then compare to John 1:1-14

Perhaps you'll learn one thing or two!

Janosky:

Yes ooooo.
Gbagam !!!!

Proverbs 8:22, to verses 30
“Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works"

Who is personified as Wisdom..?
1 Cor 1:24,30 , Jesus Christ is the Wisdom of Proverbs 8:22-30
"The first born of every creature" Col1:15,Rev3:14.


Proverbs 8:22 is a SOLID PROOF "the beginning of creation by God" in Rev3:14 should NEVER be mistranslated as "the ruler of creation" in many Trinitarians Bibles.


If you claim Wisdom is not a person in Proverbs8:22, then you are also FALSELY claiming that "the Word" of John 1:1 is not a person...
(Trinitarians,una can't shift this goalpost)

Proverbs 8:22-30 , the personified Wisdom was created & was working with God.
Two entities , not one.
John 1:1,two entities,not one.
Ton TOV Theon "the only True God" (John 17:3. 20:17) and Theos (Greek > a god /God).
TOV Theon is NOT Jesus Christ..
In the Bible, Jesus NEVER used Tov Theon to speak about himself.. John 17:3. 14:1 .20:17


Jehovah CREATED "the first born of every creature" ,his son ,(Col1:15) to work with Jehovah to create other things > Col 1:16.
Trinitarians,i dey ask una :
Did Jesus create his Father? No ,at all...

Therefore, (Greek Dia) by means of, THROUGH Jesus, "the first born of every creature" working with the Father, other things were created. Col 1:16.. John 1:3. Hebrews 1:2
The God created Theos (man , angels,Jesus) in His image.

I don't waste my precious time typing long epistle for stubborn folks like that! Matthew 7:6

Once he's not satisfied with the few points and quotes, i'll just ask him to present the group that's applying his interpretation of the scriptures so that we can examine the fruitage of God's holy spirit in their activities. Galatians 5:22-23

That's all!

First is the word "Jesus" an English word? Whether it is or isn't, what does it mean?

All these unending arguments sef...... Both the theist and the atheist are all confounded, abeg make una shift jor.

Maximus69:


Try reading it again from verse 22~ 31 but this time carefully and thorough meditation!

Then compare to John 1:1-14

Perhaps you'll learn one thing or two!

I have read well Sir, over again. You are the one who pointed to it, kindly provide your explanation. Dont go around dropping verses without explanation, that doesnt show you as a good student. You quote a verse, i asked you to explain but you cant.

Sadly for such a dogma you hold in high esteem, how you interpret expression of "wisdom" as being Jesus/his creation and how you can explain "firstborn" as meaning creation or created. You make a joke of the Hebrews and Greek lexicons Bro. A serious joke.

Maximus69:


Come on the book Bible consist of 66 little books written by 40 different writers (all men) later divided into 1189 chapters and 31,200 verses!

So when you see a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization quote a text, we know what we are saying.

We're only interested in people who want to learn, but once we discover you're not the type we just drop the point with the quote and leave you!

It is obvious you dont have words again on Scriptures but organisation sentiments and i am not here for that.

I am also not here to win discussion but to contribute to the truth of the scriptures. And i think as far as this is concern i have done my part well here. Surely, it may not be for you but for open minded Christians who will take God's word as authority and appreciate proper bible explanations.

In this, i think i will quit replying you until when i see you point to scriptures that calls for proper interpretation or explanation again. Then you can make contribution if need be.

pressplay411:


Learn to keep your posts concise. Otherwise you risk losing readers interest.

Good points by the way.

Sorry Sir, I dont write to get readers interest Sir, I seek no such interest. i write only for studious bible students and Christians who are given to Scriptures and painstakingly find the truth of the Scriptures.

Thanks Sir.

Farewell!

hupernikao:




It is obvious you dont have words again on Scriptures but organisation sentiments and i am not here for that.

I am also not here to win discussion but to contribute to the truth of the scriptures. And i think as far as this is concern i have done my part well here. Surely, it may not be for you but for open minded Christians who will take God's word as authority and appreciate proper bible explanations.

In this, i think i will quit replying you until when i see you point to scriptures that calls for proper interpretation or explanation again. Then you can make contribution if need be.

hupernikao:


I have read well Sir, over again. You are the one who pointed to it, kindly provide your explanation. Dont go around dropping verses without explanation, that doesnt show you as a good student. You quote a verse, i asked you to explain but you cant.

Sadly for such a dogma you hold in high esteem, how you interpret expression of "wisdom" as being Jesus/his creation and how you can explain "firstborn" as meaning creation or created. You make a joke of the Hebrews and Greek lexicons Bro. A serious joke.

Trinitarian misinterpretation doesn't change
1 Cor 1:24,30 and Prov8:22-30, Jesus Christ is the Wisdom personified.

The "Wisdom" was created,("the first born of every creature",Col 1:15) & was the master craftsman at his Father's side (also called "the Word in John 1:1) John 1:2,3,18. Hebrews 1:1-2. Proverbs 8:22-30) , through Jesus, his Father created the universe.
No be rocket science...

Janosky:


Trinitarian misinterpretation doesn't change
1 Cor 1:24,30 and Prov8:22-30, Jesus Christ is the Wisdom personified.

The "Wisdom" was created,("the first born of every creature",Col 1:15) & was the master craftsman at his Father's side (also called "the Word in John 1:1) John 1:2,3,18. Hebrews 1:1-2. Proverbs 8:22-30) , through Jesus, his Father created the universe.
No be rocket science...

Which one Trinitarian again? Is discussion here about that?

You quoted 1 Cor 1:24,30 to defend Prov 8:22?

I hope you arent spying Atheist cookbook recently.

You guys have started quoting scriptures like Atheists. This one you lift a verse out of its context without a little remorse, i am afraid. The only difference between you an Atheists now is that they lift scriptures to spite Christianity but you lift Scriptures to add error to the body. God help us.

If scriptures are lifted like this, only God knows the kind of doctrine we are to see in near future.

Bro, to start with, you must know that the original books of the bible arent written in Chapters and verses. If you are from the 2000 years before now, you wont be able to commit this error of context you made now as you will have to read verses together and not cherry pick one out.

I will advise you to read my discussion allover on this thread again as i have mentioned some basic rules of interpretation that a biblical concept or doctrine must not fail. I will mention 2 basic ones here again and always subject your interpretation to these.

1. Rule of Context: CONTEXT IS KING. I am sure you have heard that before. This rule is not just for bible interpretation but for all forms of literature. You must interpret and understand writings based on context not based on sentiments.

2. Just like the first is that: A text of scriptures must derive its life from its surrounding text and not from its own individual meaning.

If i say "you have balls".

Balls here must be interpreted based on its surrounding text not giving an omnibus meaning like foot ball. Same as scriptures. Dont go about giving meaning without proper reading of the scriptures.

By subjecting your interpretation of the text (1 Cor 1:24.30) to both rules, it will fail both and other rules of bible interpretation.

I will leave you to re-read the whole chapter again (1 Cor 1), howbeit, carefully, paying attention to Paul's language and usage of foolishness, wisdom, preaching of the gospel, power in this context. These are central to that chapter. Go over again, you should see your error yourself.

Maximus69:


I've told you that i'm not interested in arguing over the matter, you quoted Bible verse that never specifically say "Jesus is God" and started making explanations in support of your TRINITY doctrines.

I said my own conclusion is that Jesus is angel Michael the archangel, and i did just exactly what you did.

But to cut the long story short, just quote where the Bible plainly say

"Jesus IS God"

Or "God is three in one person"

Or just quote where the word TRINITY is written in the Bible.

That's all!

It is difficult explaining Trinity to a JW because they use a different bible. I once had this discussion with some JW colleagues at my office only to discover that portions of their bible have either been removed or doctored.

For example Trinity is best confirmed in 1 John 5:7 but it does not exist in JW's bible.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

pressplay411:


It is difficult explaining Trinity to a JW because they use a different bible. I once had this discussion with some JW colleagues at my office only to discover that portions of their bible have either been removed or doctored.

For example Trinity is best confirmed in 1 John 5:7 but it does not exist in JW's bible.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

It's difficult to change the TRUTH!

You Churchgoers are lazy, so instead of doing a thorough research on what you were taught {Act 17:11} you just swallow like pap, then when you come in contact with a fervent student you start arguing blindly!

Well there are portions that were smuggled into the Bible by a committee that compiled the 66 books in the second century.

But today, thanks to honest hearted and sincere researchers who have helped in unraveling all the secrets, if you want to be sure of what is or is not part of the Bible, go get yourself any other version of the Bible apart from the King James Version (KJV), check all those verses that's missing in the New Word Translation (NWT of the Watchtower) then come back with your futile arguments!

Nezero:
The explanation you give any part of the Bible should correlate with other parts.


Don't interpret in isolation. Jesus himself said who he is. He prayed to God. He died. He was sent.


You are free to believe whatever you want, but Jesus has a warning for anyone who stumbles others.

Matthew 18:16
"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

People's lives depend on what they believe. Everyone will be responsible for his own beliefs. Just as the serpent deceived Eve. Eve wasn't spared the consequences.

There are scriptures that confirm that Jesus is God though, both in the Old and new testaments.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.