DZTech:
I'm sure I got d spelling wrong, but I keep seeing this word.

can Muslims kindly explain?

I'd like dis to be a civil discussion.

Tnx

Bacteriologist:
Lying for the cause of Islam.

In Islam, lying is originally bit permitted but
it's not considered a sin so far you're doing in defense of the religion or to convert an infidel/apostate.

CAPSLOCKED:


IN SEVERAL CHAPTERS OF THE BIBLE GOD INSTRUCTED PEOPLE TO LIE.

ALLAH AND YAHWEH, LUNATIC DEITIES.

DZTech:
I was hoping for a few quotes to help with understanding, instead of all dis bashing and derailing

1Sharon:

They aren't lying, they told you the meaning lol

DZTech:
is it in d Quran?

1Sharon:

Nope. It's a doctrine

DZTech:
hmm.

any Muslims in d house to give insight?

1Sharon:


Nope. It's a doctrine

AntiChristian:
Take home Bible verses

AntiChristian:


There's nothing like telling lies in Islam. However having said this, some cases may permit one to "technically lie". For example, in reconciliation between spouses the wife /husband may speak evil of the other spouse. The reconciler tries to settle the matter by speaking good between them only.

Another example is in war.

And there can also be equivocation. For example, A thief visits to rob and ask where is your money?

The response is "I don't have any money on me" or "There's no money in my hand" or similar words. (And truly there's no money on me or in my hand. The money may be in the bank or somewhere else)
Except in these stringent cases lying is not permitted in Islam.


Stop spreading falsehood and your ignorance about Islam. It pays to keep mute if you don't know. All doctrines of Islam are derived from the Qur'an and Sunnah. If Taqiya is an Islamic doctrine then it should be from our Books.

DZTech:
ur aware dt wot u wrote is actually in support of 1Sharon's claims, right?
if ur permitted to lie in certain circumstances, what's d line/limit u must abide by?
wot stops any Muslim from claiming a political or economic action requires lying, to "safeguard" Muslim lives or interests?

DZTech:
na wa o.

I asked about Taqqiyah, u leave Quran come face Bible

y derailing na?

AntiChristian:



I have given you the limits. Apart from that lies are lies!

DZTech:
lol
bros, ur writeup was like shooting urself in d foot.
I asked wots to stop u from claiming a need to defend Muslim rights, lives or property as reason for lying?
kindly address it.

AntiChristian:


If the need falls into the categories I highlighted it is not a lie. If thieves enter your room and asks you if you had a wife, will you tell them yes, that you hid her in the toilet?

No, you tell them your wife is not in the room!

A couple had a little fracas and you are the intermediary. The wife spoke ill of the husband. The husband spoke ill of the wife. You have to settle the matter and transmit good between them.

This are circumstances beyond one's ability. In a normal situation one is not expected to lie. And telling lies is sinful.

DZTech:
again, u justify lying, then say lying is sinful.
how is it different from wot d lady said?

plainbibletruth:
A Christian Look at Islam’s Doctrine of Deception – Al Taqiya

Al Taqiya, in Islam, permits and even recommends lying and deception in the interest of advancing Islam.

To truly understand Islam, the objective evaluator needs to rely on what Islamic books and ‘prophet’ prescribed rather than the propaganda spread by Moslems and their allies. Therefore, the true position of Islam on any issue is based not on what any supporter of Islam says but on what the driving documents of Islam’s philosophy state. At the end of the day this is what pitches Islam against every other faith and equally pitches Moslem against Moslem when one side perceives the other as not “fully” following the precepts set down by Islam’s sacred literature and figures.

The western world’s sense of justice, right or wrong, aesthetics, etc matters little to the Moslem who chooses to strictly follow the quran and Islam’s other ‘holy books’. His concepts of all these – justice, right or wrong, aesthetics – come from these books of Islam and nothing else. The ‘Liberal’ who therefore thinks he can ‘appeal’ to common sense when it comes to dealing with Islam is either deceiving himself or has simply refused to accept that he is faced with an uphill task.

Consequently when it comes to the issue of DECEPTION by Islam what the world needs to understand is that what drives it is not the individual integrity of the Moslem but the fact that it is a FUNDAMENTAL teaching of the religion. To the ‘faithful’ Moslem only what Mohamed presented through the quran and what he provided through Islam’s other books matters.

According to these books deception – Al taqiya – is permitted and even mandatory. For example, in Hadith (Bukhari) 5:59.369, Moslems can lie and pretend in some situations:
"Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."

Even among differing Muslim sects this Islamic doctrine of deception has become a lifestyle for those who feel that their differing positions on certain issues in Islam has become a danger to their lives. They can therefore pretend to go along with the other Muslim group as long as their safety is ensured by so doing. Q. 16: 106 taken as permitting such deception is used by such groups to justify their stance.

With respect to non-Moslems see here the endorsing of deception against them:
“Let believers (Moslems) not take for friends and allies infidels (non-Moslems) instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allah – unless you guard yourselves against them, taking precautions.” Q. 3:28
A respected Islamic scholar Ibn Kathir (1301-1373) in explaining the above verse said: “Whoever at any time or place fears their (infidels’) evil, may protect himself through outward show.” He then went on to quote one of Mohamed’s companions who said: “Let us smile to the face of some people while our hearts curse them.”

Notable Islamic scholars say Al Taqiya is acceptable and extends to Moslems behaving like ‘infidels’. Moslems are permitted – in pretence – to bow down and worship idols and even the Christian cross. Anything can be done as long as it will eventually put them in a position to ultimately overcome the ‘infidels’. In fact against the non-moslem, practicing deception on them is regarded as appropriate.

Mohamed, who Moslems believe is an example to be followed, used Al Taqiya to gain advantage in many instances during his life.
Allah is even regarded as the “best deceiver” in the quran – Q. 3:54, 8:30 & 10: 21. This explains why in the quran you find contradictory verses. There are those verses that will say one thing and then another that state the complete opposite. For example, you find a verse like Q. 2:256 that says there is no compulsion in religion that appear to portray Islam as being accommodative of other religions, and then you find in the same quran verses that command Moslems to fight all non-Moslems until they either convert to Islam or be subject to Islamic regulations like Q. 9:5, 9:29. Even though Moslems attempt to explain these contradictions by saying that some portions were later abrogated (i.e. that later revelations to Mohamed abolished or rescinded the earlier ones) the fact the quran which is said to be a book that exists in heaven cannot give a single position by Allah on several issues leaves the book open to question as to whether an all-knowing Allah could have come up with all these inconsistencies.

Today, Islam still pursues the same agenda of deceit – where Moslems find themselves in a disadvantaged position they offer the ‘peaceful’ verses and pretend to live by them. But when they have the upper hand they go on the offensive with the aggressive verses claiming and pointing for all to see that they are following the quran!
Q.8:39 - “And fight them until there is no fitnah and the religion, all of it, is for Allah.” – seeks for the universal domination of Islam and as long as this has not happened Al Taqiya – Islamic deception – will continue. Anyone who thinks otherwise must show whether Islam has expunged the doctrine from its quran. Until then no agreement, negotiation, peace offers or cooperation that is genuine can truly be made with Moslems and considered secure. The Islamic Deception – Al Taqiya – allows the Moslem to stand only on the position that is profitable to Islam, NOT on any mutually beneficial position with others.

Mohamed is stated to have said in a Hadith “If I take an oath and later find something else better, I do what is better and break my oath” – Sahih Bukhari. Now, if the ‘exemplary’ prophet says he can go back on on a promise he makes then what makes anyone think that his followers, who seek to emulate him, will consider it a wrong or even a sin when they do so. No wonder Islamic countries engage in ‘dialogue’ with other religions and may even sponsor inter-faith programmes when at the same time they refuse any other religion from finding expression in their (Islamic) countries. Why many who engage in these engagements have never seem to see through such deceit is startling.

Islam permits the Moslem to lie, feign loyalty, offer fake peace treaty, give appearance of toleration, and generally cover up all in a bid to deceive the non-Moslem and gain advantage over him. Because Islam aims for world domination, deception (justified by its holy books) will continued to be used by it to justify its push for that end. As long as the Moslem sees DECEPTION as ‘divinely approved’ the problem of Al-Taqiya will be a long way from being solved.

sagenaija:
Taqiya: Islamic Deception is Koran Authorised

The Koran teaches that it is permissible for Moslems to lie and deny their faith in order to protect themselves.  Moslems who deny their faith will be forgiven as long as their true faith was not really shaken (i.e. their denial was a lie in the purest sense) and only if their denial of faith was for the purpose of avoiding harm (primarily while living among non-Moslems):

"Anyone who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty." - Chapter 16:106

sagenaija:


Mohamed even allowed lying for the sake of gaining wealth:

"After the conquest of the city of Khaybar by the Muslims, the Prophet was approached by Hajaj Ibn `Aalat and told: "O Prophet of Allah: I have in Mecca some excess wealth and some relatives, and I would like to have them back; am I excused if I bad-mouth you to escape persecution?"  The Prophet excused him and said: "Say whatever you have to say."

sagenaija:

Deception Justified To Murder The Enemies of Islam

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?"  Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?"  The Prophet said, "Yes."  Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab)."  The Prophet said, "You may say it."
Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369

sagenaija:

This is what people like AntiChristian are doing here in Nairaland - using any means, right or wrong, to deceive people into believing that Islam is what they want it to appear to be.

AntiChristian:


How is this a justification to lie? You said the Koran teaches and then you brought one verse out of over six thousand verses in the Qur'an. And this verse does not even insinuates lie

So how did he tell the lie (bad-mouthing the Prophet)? In actual reality[b](as I have put your words above in

sagenaija:

The very fact that you want me to find "lie" in all of over 6000 verses of the Koran shows how deceptive you are.
Instead of showing us where the Koran says "Thou shalt not lie" to put things to rest, you are looking for thousands of verses to the contrary before you believe.
Smh...

sagenaija:

The very fact that you want me to find "lie" in all of over 6000 verses of the Koran shows how deceptive you are.
Instead of showing us where the Koran says "Thou shalt not lie" to put things to rest, you are looking for thousands of verses to the contrary before you believe.
Smh...

"However having said this, some cases may permit one to "technically lie"

"Except in these stringent cases lying is not permitted in Islam."

AntiChristian:


There's nothing like telling lies in Islam. However having said this, some cases may permit one to "technically lie". For example, in reconciliation between spouses the wife /husband may speak evil of the other spouse. The reconciler tries to settle the matter by speaking good between them only.

Another example is in war.

And there can also be equivocation. For example, A thief visits to rob and ask where is your money?

The response is "I don't have any money on me" or "There's no money in my hand" or similar words. (And truly there's no money on me or in my hand. The money may be in the bank or somewhere else)
Except in these stringent cases lying is not permitted in Islam.


Stop spreading falsehood and your ignorance about Islam. It pays to keep mute if you don't know. All doctrines of Islam are derived from the Qur'an and Sunnah. If Taqiya is an Islamic doctrine then it should be from our Books.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food." ....
Then he requested Ka'b again, "Will you let me (smell your head)?" Ka'b said, "Yes." When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), "Get at him!" So they
killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf."
-Sahih Bukhari 5:59:369

AntiChristian:
Take home Bible verses

Topic
Is the Lord a great deceiver?

Jeremiah 4:10
Then I said, "Ah, Sovereign LORD, how completely you have deceived (nasha) this people and Jerusalem by saying, 'You will have peace,' when the sword is at our throats."

We have it in...

1 Kings 22:20-22
And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
" 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

Here we see that the man said that he would resort to lying in order to entice Ahab and God supported the idea and told him to go ahead and do it!

We even have it in...

Ezekiel 14:9-11
" 'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel. 10 They will bear their guilt-the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him. 11 Then the people of Israel will no longer stray from me, nor will they defile themselves anymore with all their sins. They will be my people, and I will be their God, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

God is punishing him for a crime that He enticed him to do in the first place? Isn't that entrapment?

Another passage...

Isaiah 37:6-7
Isaiah said to them, "Tell your master, 'This is what the LORD says: Do not be afraid of what you have heard-those words with which the underlings of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me. Listen! I am going to put a spirit in him so that when he hears a certain report, he will return to his own country, and there I will have him cut down with the sword.'

God had that spirit spread a rumor so that the King of Assyria can to return to his homeland. In short, that spirit's purpose was for deception.

Another example from the Bible...

Isaiah 19:14
The LORD has poured into them a spirit of dizziness; they make Egypt stagger in all that she does, as a drunkard staggers around in his vomit.

Here we see God deceiving people to the extent that they become absolutely foolish.

Even though I don't believe the Gospels teach that Jesus taught he was God, however this example is for those who believe that Jesus is God. Jesus admits that he was speaking figuratively all this time...

John 16:25
"Though I have been speaking figuratively (paroimia), a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

Why wasn't Jesus speaking in a normal and clear way all the time? Why did Jesus then go and say that he won't 'use this kind of language'?

Well, here we find out why...

Mark 4:10-12
When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that," 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'

So here we see that Jesus was deceiving certain people by speaking in parables so that they won't (and God forbid!) REPENT AND BE FORGIVEN!

Also in...

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.

So God will delude people so that they can believe lies?

advocatejare:


Allah is the deceiver.

"Indeed, the hypocrites [think to] deceive Allah, but He is deceiving them...," (QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 142)

Quran 8:30
wa-idh yamkuru bika alladhīna kafarū liyuth'bitūka aw yaqtulūka aw yukh'rijūka wayamkurūna wayamkuru l-lahu wal-lahu khayru l-mākirīna

And when those who disbelieved deceive/scheme at you to affix/affirm you, or kill you, or bring you out, and they scheme/deceive , and Allah deceives/schemes and Allah (is) best (of) the deceivers/schemers .

Makrina is from (مَكْر [makr] ) which means cunning, deceptive, guile.

advocatejare:

You didn't remember to add that Taqiyya as endorsed by Muhammad also means to lie so that you can get close to the person who you don't like, to gain his trust and kill him as Muhammad endorsed one of his followers to do.

Mohammed even encouraged his follower to lie so that he could gain the trust of the person Mohammed wanted to murder:

That was how they used lies to get close to Kab and killed him.