@post

YES

A woman leading the people of the "called out church" cannot exist.
A woman can however minister.
A woman filled with the Holy Ghost by the direction of the Holy Ghost can and will never Leader a Church of God people.

A woman possesed of another Spirit ( like that of a business enterprise) can lead any Church (not God's Church).

@pilgrim

READ JUDGES CHAPTER 4 and 5 Very well

@ post
NO

Backslider:

@pilgrim

READ JUDGES CHAPTER 4 and 5 Very well

I did - what is your point?

pilgrim.1:

I'm quite interested in reading where apostle Paul actually "stated" the above. Do you have a direct verse where he "stated" it so?

Passage 1 Corinthians 14:34-35:

34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Passage 1 Timothy 2:11-12:

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I know after reading this pilgrim.1 would still not agree, as she as developed her own unique way of interpreting the bible

Lol. . @KunleOshob,

1.

pilgrim.1:

~Lady~ link=topic=61492.msg2739270#msg2739270 date=1220295681:

Apsotle Paul already stated that the woman is not to be a Pastor.

I'm quite interested in reading where apostle Paul actually "stated" the above. Do you have a direct verse where he "stated" it so?

KunleOshob:

Passage 1 Corinthians 14:34-35:

Passage 1 Timothy 2:11-12:

I know after reading this pilgrim.1 would still not agree, as she as developed her own unique way of interpreting the bible

Dear Kunle, you can see that the verses you quoted did not say that a woman cannot be a pastor - Paul never said so anywhere in those verses, nor is it said anywhere in the NT. When people quote those verses and use them against the concept of women being pastors, it is because they are too driven with inherited traditions of their own fancies and not what the texts teach.

I have discussed this matter extensively in the past and would not like to repeat myself here. The one thing that amazes me is that those who shout a discordant note have not been able up until now to open the Scriptures and show where they find the fancies they postulate. . . nevermind that they have not been able to show where, how, or why my highlights and references may be mistaken. I'm not claiming to be an authority on anything; but as we all reason along, I'm wondering if mere assertions and humanistic traditions are the best that many of us Christians in our day can propagate? Why is it that we feel threatened as Christians when called upon to open the Word and prayerfully study what it actually says?

Besides the many points I raised in this threads and the questions which no one has answered (other than come back with unnecessary noise and dismissals out of hand), here are a few links that will help you see the difference between the various types of leaders in the Body of Christ:

             https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1277728

             https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1278020

             https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1278591

             https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1280145

             https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1280160

Particularly the last two will help answer your enquiries in this case:

             1. Does the Scripture not forbid women teaching in Church?

             2. What about usurping authority over the man?

I hope you find them helpful; and if not, please give me a shout back and let's talk.

Bless you.

@post
yes

A church - proper one anyway - cannot be led by "a woman". Neither can it be led by "a man".

TV01:

A church - proper one anyway - cannot be led by "a woman". Neither can it be led by "a man".

We don hear - neither here nor there. Anything else?

According to the Apostle Paul, women should be quiet in church. So what would they be doing heading a church?

huxley:

According to the Apostle Paul, women should be quiet in church. So what would they be doing heading a church?

Leaders in Church are not appointed mainly to be speakers - there is more to leadership than has been traditionally thought of.

pilgrim.1:

We don hear - neither here nor there. Anything else?

For you dear, of course ~ Women can minister in some capacity and "lead", quote unquote, in some areas - most notably in female on female and childrens ministry. But overall leadership is always by a plurality of male elders.

How was that?

Bless
TV

TV01:

For you dear, of course ~ Women can minister in some capacity and "lead", quote unquote, in some areas - most notably in female on female and childrens ministry. But overall leadership is always by a plurality of male elders.

How was that?

That? Muuuaah!! Perfect!

pilgrim.1:

Lol. . @KunleOshob,

1.
I'm quite interested in reading where apostle Paul actually "stated" the above. Do you have a direct verse where he "stated" it so?



Dear Kunle, you can see that the verses you quoted did not say that a woman cannot be a pastor - Paul never said so anywhere in those verses, nor is it said anywhere in the NT. When people quote those verses and use them against the concept of women being pastors, it is because they are too driven with inherited traditions of their own fancies and not what the texts teach.

I have discussed this matter extensively in the past and would not like to repeat myself here. The one thing that amazes me is that those who shout a discordant note have not been able up until now to open the Scriptures and show where they find the fancies they postulate. . . nevermind that they have not been able to show where, how, or why my highlights and references may be mistaken. I'm not claiming to be an authority on anything; but as we all reason along, I'm wondering if mere assertions and humanistic traditions are the best that many of us Christians in our day can propagate? Why is it that we feel threatened as Christians when called upon to open the Word and prayerfully study what it actually says?

Besides the many points I raised in this threads and the questions which no one has answered (other than come back with unnecessary noise and dismissals out of hand), here are a few links that will help you see the difference between the various types of leaders in the Body of Christ:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1277728

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1278020

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1278591

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1280145

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1280160

Particularly the last two will help answer your enquiries in this case:

1. Does the Scripture not forbid women teaching in Church?

2. What about usurping authority over the man?

I hope you find them helpful; and if not, please give me a shout back and let's talk.

Bless you.

My dear pilgrim.1, i have read your referalls and it only butresses my point that you have your own unique way of interpreting the bible to suit your whims and caprices. The implication of what paul said is very glaring, clear and obvious, not subject to debate, so i wouldn't even bother if i were you, _{but then again i am not you}

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

My dear pilgrim.1, i have read your referalls and it only butresses my point that you have your own unique way of interpreting the bible to suit your whims and caprices. The implication of what paul said is very glaring, clear and obvious, not subject to debate, so i wouldn't even bother if i were you, _{but then again i am not you}

Thanks for taking the time to read through the referrals. I would have expected you to find where Paul actually "stated" that a woman cannot be a pastor - did you find it at all? No.

'Whims and caprices' are very mild ways of expressing your disaffection for what you may disagree with, and I'm quite used to these slobers. Why such tendencies do not bother me at all is that derogatory remarks do not pass off as intelligence - and everyone knows that. The more people resort to such thingumajigs to excuse their vacancy of insight, the more I feel very confident that they have nothing to offer other than their mere rumpus.

Do enjoy today sha.

pilgrim.1:

@KunleOshob,

Thanks for taking the time to read through the referrals. I would have expected you to find where Paul actually "stated" that a woman cannot be a pastor - did you find it at all? No.

If a woman is not permitted to speak in a church gathering neither is she permitted to have authority over men how is it possible she is allowed to be a pastor in a church attended by men

i would refrain from responding to the second part of your post

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

If a woman is not permitted to speak in a church gathering neither is she permitted to have authority over men how is it possible she is allowed to be a pastor in a church attended by men

That is precisely the point I have been trying to make – and which I did in those links I referred you to. We have always held the traditional idea that a pastor every single time must always be the speaker! Wrong. The word “pastor” includes those who are in oversight – and not all of them speak or teach in the Church.

KunleOshob:

i would refrain from responding to the second part of your post

I appreciate it so, in hope that you would refrain from inviting what you can’t contain next time. If you guys are interested in discussing, please do so without forcing yourselves to be necessarily derogatory in the way you address others. Is that too hard to accommodate?

Cheers.

are u questioning God? He decides to use whoever is available be it male or female.

pilgrim.1:

@KunleOshob,

! Wrong. The word “pastor” includes those who are in[b] oversight [/b] – and not all of them speak or teach in the Church.

Now if a woman as oveersight functions over a man is that not the same as she having authority over him in a church enrironment
Your persuasions apart we all know that in reality female pastors talk in church an pastor their own churches. Besides the post says " can you attend a church led by a woman" Now taking the word "led" into context does that not impliy she has authority over those she is leading? the men inclusive.

bluntpis:

are u questioning God? He decides to use whoever is available be it male or female.

and how do you know who God has decided to use, is it when someone just unilaterally declares that she has received a calling and she proceeds to establish her church or is it when a woman's pastor husband dies and she proceeds to take over the church leadership to protect the family business?

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

Now if a woman as oveersight functions over a man is that not the same as she having authority over him in a church enrironment

Lol, lovebale brother Kuns, I am beginning to wonder if you actually read my thoughts in those links. I'm not doubting your claim to have done so; but I think I already addressed the meaning of "having authority" in one of those links -

       What about usurping authority over the man?

           "Indeed women are asked to not usurp authority over the men
            (1 Tim. 2:12) - and refrence has already been made as to what
            that entails (refers)"
            >snip<
            It becomes clear that the understanding of 'usurping authority over'
            the man is simply to "autocratically domineer over as an absolute master".
            It is indeed a shame if a woman (or even a man) does that
            to God's people.

I hope that reminder answers the question you raised. If you're still not clear, I shall be glad to refer yet again and clarify.

KunleOshob:

Your persuasions apart we all know that in reality female pastors talk in church an pastor their own churches. Besides the post says " can you attend a church led by a woman" Now taking the word "led" into context does that not impliy she has authority over those she is leading? the men inclusive.

And did you not read my conclusions in those same links? Should I remind you? Here -
[list][list]

Finally,

(g) Can I attend a Church led by a Woman?

I believe that Scripture shows us that leadership in the Body of Christ (or in the Church) is a joint exercise rather than an exclusive "men only" or "women only" sort of thing. The elders are both men and women, each having their various distinct roles to play in the Church.

If that is the setting, praise God. But if God in His sovereignty uses women effectively as He does men in some instances, praise Him all the more. I could attend a church where women are in leadership; but I doubt if I would most gladly want to remain there.

Many blessings.  

[/list][/list]

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

and how do you know who God has decided to use,

I think you should be asking yourself that very question. If you are disturbed about what someone else has said, would your own ideas stand the test of your own scrutiny in the same ways as you slice other people's opinions?

Just an observation.

@pilgrim.1
I have re-read all your referals and my conclusion is this: You are just dancing round in circles and as usual not hitting the nail on the head. however in this case you are trying to force the meaning out of paul's statement contrary to your efforts to force meanings to other scriptures which we have debated in the past.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

@pilgrim.1
I have re-read all your referals and my conclusion is this: You are just dancing round in circles and as usual not hitting the nail on the head. however in this case you are trying to force the meaning out of paul's statement contrary to your efforts to force meanings to other scriptures which we have debated in the past.

Thank you for your comments - nice to know what you think about my observations. If I was "dancing around" and not hiting the nail, why is it so difficult for you, at least, to show (1) where, (2) how, (3) why, and (4) what it is that may have been askew in what you read?

pilgrim.1:


why is it so difficult for you, at least, to show (1) where, (2) how, (3) why, and (4) what it is that may have been askew in what you read?

Let me show you what I mean. Supposing someone goes to those links and makes the following observations:

1. pilgrim.1 is of the opinion that:

● There's no doubt that women (as "elders" - Gk. πρεσβύτις - presbutis)
are recognized as 'teachers of good things' in Tit. 2:3.

● in other settings, women as "elders" (Gk. πρεσβύτις - presbutis)
addressed as 'teachers of good things' (Tit. 2:3) can teach the 'younger'.


Now, from the above, if they disagreed with me, what anyone would expect them to do would include the following:

2. why I diagree with pilgrim.1 is that:

● I have carefully checked what she quoted (Titus 2:3)
and I discovered that it did not say what pilgrim.1 said

● that verse actually does not say in any version of Greek
that women are "teachers of good things"

● it didn't even say in verse 4 that these women could
"teach the young women" anywhere in any text

That would have been mre interesting than blandly dismissing it out of hand and then having nothing at all to offer and direct the minds of readers to. Certainly, after having made those references, one would have expected the same person to state precisely what that verse actually says, by doing the following:

3. here is what pilgrim.1 got wrong:

● that verse (Titus 2:3) actually says. . . . ____ . . .
and we can see that it does not say what pilgrim.1 said

● the verse 3 does not even say at all that
"teachers of good things" as referring to women

These are the things that make for intelligent discussions that may benefit us all on wither plane. But to just arrive at blandly dismissing issues and then not be able to show precisely what those verses are saying, is to come across as someone merely interested in their thingumajigs.

If you're able to, please go one step than the bland assertive dismissals and show -

(1) where,
(2) how,
(3) why, and
(4) what

it is in my posts that you may not agree with. I hope this simple outline would be a blessing to you.

Cheers.

@pilgrim.1
So how do you relate "teacher of good things" to being a pastor or even a leader of a church, was it specified or implied in that scripture that they did their teachings in a church cos Apostle paul was very clear and unambiguos when he stated without reservations that women weren't allowed to speak in churches _{talk less of pastoring it} The fact that you choose to use this remotely related scripture to butress your point makes it very obvious that you simply do not have any case. you are probably arguing your case from the biased position of being a woman and not sound scriptural doctrine.

To all those knocking their heads against the wall arguing that women cannot lead a church, let it be known to you that in Christ Jesus, there is neither male nor female. His agenda on earth is much bigger than the issue of gender and He will use any willing vessel, irrespective of gender. Offices in the church are not gender based, and God will use a male vessel as quickly as He would a female. We see several places in scripture where He used women in leadership positions. Even in post-bible world, we see several instances where God used women in leadership positions in the church -- wasn't 4square founded and led by a woman?-- I can't even begin to tell you the several number of women missionaries in several churches across america who relocate to countries where several people are yet to hear the gospel and end up starting and pastoring churches there, with God confirming the words that proceed from their mouths with unmistakable signs and wonders following. . .  and to think some folks are still sitting around arguing about women leadership in church?? Incredible!

Let the answer to this question be the final arbiter: Will God manifest His power in a church being led by a woman?

If the answer to that question is YES, then please let's stop all this nonsense arguments and get busy fulfilling God's calling on our lives. Afterall if God has no problem calling women to leadership positions in the Church and working through women in such positions, who are we to say women can't occupy those positions?

KunleOshob:

@pilgrim.1
So how do you relate "teacher of good things" to being a pastor or even a leader of a church, was it specified or implied in that scripture that they did their teachings in a church because Apostle paul was very clear and unambiguos when he stated without reservations that women weren't allowed to speak in churches _{talk less of pastoring it} The fact that you choose to use this remotely related scripture to butress your point makes it very obvious that you simply do not have any case. you are probably arguing your case from the biased position of being a woman and not sound scriptural doctrine.

Kunle, answers to your repeated questions are in those links I already pointed out. Fresh questions welcome, if any.

Cheers.

Edit:

As I said already, whinging does not help this matter at all, and I have shown you what you can do instead of making such bland remarks: (here) and (here). Blessings.

@pilgrim
E ya, you tried sha but I think you are stretching what paul and the other apostles meant, it is clear that women have always taken the back seat from the onset no amount of analysis would change that.
Take a church like Church of God mission, with late bishop benson Idahosa's wife as a bishop, now that aint gonna happen in the time of paul.
Your explanations are out of context because that was a time when female suppression reigned supreme. But today things have changed and again ways have been found from the same bible to accommodate it, like I have said in some of my posts bending beliefs to fit with reality.
Cheers.

@Chrisbenogor,

I quite disagree with you about my "stretching" what Paul meant. This is why I only asked people to go through my posts and follow through with this simple outline as to what they disgaree with, and then discuss them in full. If the scriptures I shared with their precise meanings are not what we find in the Bible, it would be my pleasure for whoever disagrees to go through them and show us just what the same texts actually teach.

On the whole, you will not find any one man leading a church in apostolic times. Leadership was not a men-only phenomena in Scripture: rather, it was a joint exercise with both men and women fulfilling their godly roles in the local churches. Nor would you find any one woman leading any church in apostolic times.

And suppression of women? That has been the traditional thought among many people, because what we read with our natural inclinations comes across as if there was a suppression of women in the Body of Christ. The example of such denominations as the Church of God Mission is not what we find in Scripture - and I have stated that clearly in my previous entries. Again, the idea of a one-man led ministry called a "church" is not taught in Scripture either.

All the same, I appreciate your observations. Cheers.

I wonder why my darling Pilgrim.1 finds it soooo difficult to succumb to obviously superior arguments when her position is being overwhelmingly faulted