Emescot:
Then I am happy for you. Goodnight

I asked you of the salvation you speak of cause I do not know any that any man, even the Catholic church can offer to anyone. Eternal life, according to Jesus Christ, belongs to everyone who simply believes in Him. The Kingdom of God only belongs to those who make themselves worthy of Jesus Christ and that can only be achieved through direct obedience of His commandments, not the doctrines and rules of men.

Kobojunkie:
I asked you of the salvation you speak of cause I do not know any that any man, even the Catholic church can offer to anyone. Eternal life, according to Jesus Christ, belongs to everyone who simply believes in Him. The Kingdom of God only belongs to those who make themselves worthy of Jesus Christ and that can only be achieved through direct obedience of His commandments, not the doctrines and rules of men.

It's not something a non Catholic can understand bro

Eucharist, confession, Baptism

Emescot:
It's not something a non Catholic can understand bro

What? Um... you forget that the foundation of the churches today come from the catholic church, and so also many of the doctrines, rules and rituals.

Emescot:
Eucharist, confession, Baptism

You mention the eucharist, confession, baptism, and I wonder if you know that Jesus Christ taught each and every one of His followers how to do each of those... albeit not in a way as involved and elaborate as is the tradition with the Catholic church. However, Jesus Christ never once stated that Salvation hinged on any of those rituals. And He, Jesus Christ, never once suggested that any of those practices, or even all of them combined, could open the gates of Heaven to anyone.

Kobojunkie:
What? Um... you forget that the foundation of the churches today come from the catholic church, and so also many of the doctrines, rules and rituals.

You mention the eucharist, confession, baptism, and I wonder if you know that Jesus Christ taught each and every one of His followers how to do each of those... albeit not in a way as involved and elaborate as is the tradition with the Catholic church. However, Jesus Christ never once stated that Salvation hinged on any of those rituals. And He, Jesus Christ, never once suggested that any of those practices, or even all of them combined, could open the gates of Heaven to anyone.

As expected you don't understand.

So I will take it one at a time
1. Baptism--"Truly, truly, I say to you,
unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot ENTER into the kingdom of God. That which is born
of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the
Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you,
"You must be born again.' ( John 3:3-7 )

2. John 20:19–23. Let me read it: "On
the evening of that day, the first day of the week,
the doors being shut where the disciples were, for
fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among
them and said to them, ‘Peace be with you.’ When
he had said this, he showed them his hands and his
side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw
the Lord. Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with
you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send
you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on
them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If
you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you
retain the sins of any, they are retained." (Please note that is a divine Authority for forgiveness of sin, and the Catholic Church boasts to have received this authority through St. Peter the first Pope of the church.)

3. Eucharist--John 6: 51: “ I am the living bread that came
down from heaven . If anyone eats of this
bread , he will live forever. And the bread that
I will give for the life of the world is my
flesh.” (Transubstantiation, the Catholic Church boasts of doing this right)

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Goodnight

Emescot:
As expected you don't understand.

So I will take it one at a time
1. Baptism--"Truly, truly, I say to you,
unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot ENTER into the kingdom of God. That which is born
of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the
Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you,
"You must be born again.' ( John 3:3-7 )

I think it is you that do not understand. Nowhere above does Jesus Christ tell you that being baptized in water will open the gates of Heaven for you. Ofcourse, all those who will enter Heaven will be need to have been baptized in water, but the ritual itself does not open the gates of Heaven for anyone, not even the billions who have been baptized.

However, interestingly that verse says you have to be baptized also in the Spirit, suggesting that being baptized in water is not enough! See, baptism in water is good... Jesus Christ did it and so should we. But it is not enough, what you ought to have in addition is the Spirit of God inside of you. You have to be born again... an additional step beyond ordinary baptism in water.

Emescot:
2. John 20:19–23. Let me read it: "On
the evening of that day, the first day of the week,
the doors being shut where the disciples were, for
fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among
them and said to them, ‘Peace be with you.’ When
he had said this, he showed them his hands and his
side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw
the Lord. Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with
you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send
you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on
them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If
you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you
retain the sins of any, they are retained." (Please note that is a divine Authority for forgiveness of sin, and the Catholic Church boasts to have received this authority through St. Peter the first Pope of the church.)

Interesting claim at the end! So you believe that claim? How did the Catholic church obtain this authority you claim it boasts of? How? How?
By the way, that authority was not given to just Peter, as it was given to everyone who is a follower of Jesus Christ... i.e. everyone who submits to obeying the commandments of Jesus Christ.
Remember I had asked you earlier what you meant by Salvation? Well, I suggest you read John 3 vs 16 through 23 to learn more on that.

Here's the short of the story. When Adam fell, and God imposed on Him the consequence of sin, that he would die/perish(cease to exist upon death), through Adam, that consequence fell on all mankind - the one who sinned died.
Jesus Christ, the eternal Life, showed up later on the scene, declaring that He was the life that whoever believed in Him would have eternal life(their sins forgiven) and hence salvation from the condemnation that is sin and death. So, to all those who believe in Jesus Christ, instead of death, there is eternal life.
Now, once you have eternal life, what next? Oh, there is a next!

Emescot:
3. Eucharist--John 6: 51: “ I am the living bread that came
down from heaven . If anyone eats of this
bread , he will live forever. And the bread that
I will give for the life of the world is my
flesh.” (Transubstantiation, the Catholic Church boasts of doing this right)

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Goodnight

LOL... you make me laugh!

Eternal life means you will indeed live forever, but eternally where? Hell? Heaven? That is a choice to be made and certainly, no church ritual can get you closer to Heaven, at least not according to Jesus Christ Himself! Going by the verses you posted, not one of the rituals you posted earlier... Eucharist, Baptism, or confession... will open the gate of Heaven for you; not by themselves anyway, and since Jesus Christ taught all these things to all of His followers, attaching your self and your soul, to an entity(Catholic) pretending salvation(i.e. eternal life) is where it all ends, is playing with your own eternity.

The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is a doctrine created in the minds of men to be fed as control over their fellow man. When you eat Jesus Christ's body, you become a part of His body on earth -- a servant of His, born to do the Will of your master here on earth. It is not simply by the eating of the bread that you become a part of His body... It is by obeying His commandments. You can eat all the bread you want and drink all the wine you desire during eucharism, but if you do not obey the commandments of Jesus Christ, as stated by Jesus Christ Himself, forever, for you will have nothing to do with Heaven, that is what Jesus Christ, the one whose Kingdom it is, said.

If, however, the kingdom of the Catholic church is what you are vying for, I can sense that you are probably more likely to win yourself a place in that kingdom though.

Kobojunkie:
I think it is you that do not understand. Nowhere above does Jesus Christ tell you that being baptized in water will open the gates of Heaven for you. Ofcourse, all those who will enter Heaven will be need to have been baptized in water, but the ritual itself does not open the gates of Heaven for anyone, not even the billions who have been baptized.

However, interestingly that verse says you have to be baptized also in the Spirit, suggesting that being baptized in water is not enough! See, baptism in water is good... Jesus Christ did it and so should we. But it is not enough, what you ought to have in addition is the Spirit of God inside of you. You have to be born again... an additional step beyond ordinary baptism in water.

Interesting claim at the end! So you believe that claim? How did the Catholic church obtain this authority you claim it boasts of? How? How?
By the way, that authority was not given to just Peter, as it was given to everyone who is a follower of Jesus Christ... i.e. everyone who submits to obeying the commandments of Jesus Christ.
Remember I had asked you earlier what you meant by Salvation? Well, I suggest you read John 3 vs 16 through 23 to learn more on that.

Here's the short of the story. When Adam fell, and God imposed on Him the consequence of sin, that he would die/perish(cease to exist upon death), through Adam, that consequence fell on all mankind - the one who sinned died.
Jesus Christ, the eternal Life, showed up later on the scene, declaring that He was the life that whoever believed in Him would have eternal life(their sins forgiven) and hence salvation from the condemnation that is sin and death. So, to all those who believe in Jesus Christ, instead of death, there is eternal life.
Now, once you have eternal life, what next? Oh, there is a next!

LOL... you make me laugh!

Eternal life means you will indeed live forever, but eternally where? Hell? Heaven? That is a choice to be made and certainly, no church ritual can get you closer to Heaven, at least not according to Jesus Christ Himself! Going by the verses you posted, not one of the rituals you posted earlier... Eucharist, Baptism, or confession... will open the gate of Heaven for you; not by themselves anyway, and since Jesus Christ taught all these things to all of His followers, attaching your self and your soul, to an entity(Catholic) pretending salvation(i.e. eternal life) is where it all ends, is playing with your own eternity.

The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is a doctrine created in the minds of men to be fed as control over their fellow man. When you eat Jesus Christ's body, you become a part of His body on earth -- a servant of His, born to do the Will of your master here on earth. It is not simply by the eating of the bread that you become a part of His body... It is by obeying His commandments. You can eat all the bread you want and drink all the wine you desire during eucharism, but if you do not obey the commandments of Jesus Christ, as stated by Jesus Christ Himself, forever, for you will have nothing to do with Heaven, that is what Jesus Christ, the one whose Kingdom it is, said.

If, however, the kingdom of the Catholic church is what you are vying for, I can sense that you are probably more likely to win yourself a place in that kingdom though.

So in summary what guarantees your salvation?

Emescot:
So in summary what guarantees your salvation?

Salvation is a free gift to all those who believe in Jesus Christ. Getting into Heaven though? According to Jesus Christ, that is only for those who will become like children in their thinking...submit to be lead by the Spirit of God and obey the commandments of Jesus Christ. Yep, those who will qualify for Heaven are the servants who will do as Jesus Christ, the New Covenant, has commanded of all His followers.

Yes, not all those who have salvation(eternal life) will end up in Heaven. And no, Salvation does not guarantee that one becomes born again(is born of the Spirit of God) either or even makes it into Heaven. Many of those who have Salvation will instead end up in Hell.... since Hell is a place prepared for the storage of those who have eternal life but refuse to obey the commandments of Jesus Christ through the lead of the Spirit of God.

Do you know what I find funny about all this still? It is that those who do not even believe in God, yes, the unbelievers and unsaved .... they simply perish after death i.e. the end of their existence is the grave. There is no hell for them since Hell is for eternity and the unbelievers don't have eternal life.

Emescot:



So in summary what guarantees your salvation?

As I read your comments, I get very angry and irritated at your ignorance.

The reason I get angry with people who make silly arguments like yours is because of how many of you through man made traditions have made the Word of no effect to people who could have believed on God as He intended in His word.

People who place man's words above God's.

I cant even continue reading your rubbish.

Thank you.

Jeromejnr:


As I read your comments, I get very angry and irritated at your ignorance.

The reason I get angry with people who make silly arguments like yours is because of how many of you through man made traditions have made the Word of no effect to people who could have believed on God as He intended in His word.

People who place man's words above God's.

I cant even continue reading your rubbish.

Thank you.

Kudos to you for your contribution, but you made no point, obviously the rubbish was for someone more open in thinking than you.

And for your information, everything I posted is not man's word, it's directly from the Bible, the least you could do is ask question or engage in the reasonable argument. Thank you

Kobojunkie:
Salvation is a free gift to all those who believe in Jesus Christ. Getting into Heaven though? According to Jesus Christ, that is only for those who will become like children in their thinking...submit to be lead by the Spirit of God and obey the commandments of Jesus Christ. Yep, those who will qualify for Heaven are the servants who will do as Jesus Christ, the New Covenant, has commanded of all His followers.

Yes, not all those who have salvation(eternal life) will end up in Heaven. And no, Salvation does not guarantee that one becomes born again(is born of the Spirit of God) either or even makes it into Heaven. Many of those who have Salvation will instead end up in Hell.... since Hell is a place prepared for the storage of those who have eternal life but refuse to obey the commandments of Jesus Christ through the lead of the Spirit of God.

Do you know what I find funny about all this still? It is that those who do not even believe in God, yes, the unbelievers and unsaved .... they simply perish after death i.e. the end of their existence is the grave. There is no hell for them since Hell is for eternity and the unbelievers don't have eternal life.

I don't think you know what Salvation means, Salvation is being totally free from the consequences of sin, you cannot be free from sin and still end up in hell, that is what Salvation is all about.

I am ending this argument because you said there is no hell for unbelievers, that is false teaching and against what the Bible teaches. No matter who you are believer or non believer, after death is judgment and you either go to hell or go to heaven.

And please when the Bible says eternal life it means being with Christ after death of the physical body, if the Bible meant going to hell after death it would have been stated eternal damnation. With Christ its Life Eternal.

Emescot:
I don't think you know what Salvation means, Salvation is being totally free from the consequences of sin, you cannot be free from sin and still end up in hell, that is what Salvation is all about.

But you are wrong! I know what Salvation means and it is indeed as stated in the passage below.
First, you have to ask yourself, what exactly are we being saved from?

John 3 vs 5-21 (ERV)
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5. Jesus answered, “Believe me when I say that everyone must be born from water and the Spirit. Anyone who is not born from water and the Spirit cannot enter God’s kingdom.
6. The only life people get from their human parents is physical. But the new life that the Spirit gives a person is spiritual.
7. Don’t be surprised that I told you, ‘You must be born again.’
8. The wind blows wherever it wants to. You hear it, but you don’t know where it is coming from or where it is going. It is the same with everyone who is born from the Spirit.”
9. Nicodemus asked, “How is all this possible?”
10. Jesus said, “You are an important teacher of Israel, and you still don’t understand these things?
11. The truth is, we talk about what we know. We tell about what we have seen. But you people don’t accept what we tell you.
12. I have told you about things here on earth, but you do not believe me. So I’m sure you will not believe me if I tell you about heavenly things!
13. The only one who has ever gone up to heaven is the one who came down from heaven—the Son of Man.
14 “Moses lifted up the snake in the desert.[a] It is the same with the Son of Man. He must be lifted up too.
15. Then everyone who believes in him can have eternal life.”
16. “For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
21. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

What you have to pay attention to is the consequence of sin, and that is death(to cease to exist in the grave).

According to the passage above, Salvation is redemption from the condemnation of sin and death, meaning all those who believe in Jesus Christ are saved -- no longer condemned to die/perish in the grave. Instead, they are gifted with eternal life. So, no longer will the grave be their end, no matter how much sin they commit after receiving eternal life. Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ will never perish, ever - the punishment for sin, which is death(perish in the grave) is no longer valid for such a person.

So yes, in a sense, they are forever forgiven of their sins i.e. are never again condemned to die as Adam died. But, and there is a HUGE BUT.

Emescot:
I am ending this argument because you said there is no hell for unbelievers, that is false teaching and against what the Bible teaches.

That is absolutely not false teaching my friend. Read the passage above again.

If, since Adam, those who do not believe, are cursed to die(their body and soul ceases once they die), then how can they be in Hell, a place of Eternal punishment, when they had no eternal life, to begin with.

Remember Adam did not eat of the tree of life in the beginning, so before Jesus Christ, all those who sinned died and ceases upon death. When Jesus Christ, the Life, showed up and gave Himself to the world, He brought Life to the world, to those who would believe in Him. Yes, Jesus Christ, according to the passage above is the reason why Eternal life (an afterlife) has become widely available to those who are in the world today. Those who believe in Him will have eternal life, but those who refuse to believe in Him will die/perish like their father Adam did.

So, if the unbeliever has no afterlife, what does he have to spend in Hellfire? Nothing because he longer exists (no body and soul)once he dies.

Emescot:
And please when the Bible says eternal life it means being with Christ after death of the physical body, if the Bible meant going to hell after death it would have been stated eternal damnation. With Christ its Life Eternal.

Nope, Jesus Christ was clear about the difference between having eternal life and then entering into His Kingdom. You cannot ignorantly confuse the two unless you wish to live in denial of the facts before you.

Eternity can be spent in either of two places... Heaven or Hell. And Jesus Christ was clear about who will end up in Heaven, and who will end up in Hell. Those who will spend it in Hell are alive and well... no sleeping of dead, as that would not make sense, punishment-wise(consciousness of some sort is required for torment to be real, don't you think). So, yes, what those who will end up ETERNALLY in Hell will have, is eternal life as well.

Kobojunkie:

What you have to pay attention to is the consequence of sin, and that is death(to cease to exist in the grave).

No it's not just ceasing to exist in the grave, we are a spirit in a body, while our body can die off, the spirit cannot, so death here is the Opposite of Eternal life, so if you don't make eternal life in heaven, then it's eternal damnation in hell.

Kobojunkie:
Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ will never perish, ever - the punishment for sin, which is death(perish in the grave) is no longer valid for such a person.

Wrong teaching, let me teach you what salvation is like, you are drowning, and God sends someone to save you, but for him to be able to save you you have to be ready to accept his help, you have to be baptized, you have to receive the gifts of the holy spirit and receive the holy spirit, you have to ask for forgiveness of sins and you have to follow everything God commanded, if not you cannot be saved, believing Jesus is the one sent to save you is not enough. Faith without works is dead.

Heaven is real, Hell is real, If you miss heaven you cannot miss hell.

Emescot:
No it's not just ceasing to exist in the grave, we are a spirit in a body, while our body can die off, the spirit cannot, so death here is the Opposite of Eternal life, so if you don't make eternal life in heaven, then it's eternal damnation in hell.

Wait, are you seriously saying that the opposite of eternal life is eternal damnation? Did you miss out somehow on the fact that they are both ETERNAL in orientation and hence cannot in fact be deemed opposites?

Do you remember the passage below where God spelt out to Adam the consequence of sinning against Him in the garden of Eden?

Genesis 2 vs 15-17 (ERV)
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15. Then the Lord God took [d]the man and put him in the garden of Eden to [e]tend and keep it.
16. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17. but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you[f] shall surely die.”

Turns out God did not lie for indeed, in the passage that follows, He, God, spelt out the terms of death for Adam.

Genesis 3 vs 17-19 (ERV)
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17. Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
18. Both thorns and thistles it shall [f]bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”

The consequence of sin is death -- man returns to the ground -- dust you are and dust you shall return. God did not separate man's body from man's soul in this. The punishment was on the totality that is the man(mind, body, and soul) were returned to the ground.

Genesis 3 vs 22-24 (ERV)
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22. Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
23. therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
24. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

And remember this passage above? Since Adam did not eat from the tree of life, he, and his descendants did not have eternal life, so all those who sinned were sentenced to Perish begining with him, Adam.

So, if Adam was not ETERNAL, where do unbelievers get eternal life which they supposedly spend in Hell from? Ask yourself questions.

Emescot:
Wrong teaching, let me teach you what salvation is like, you are drowning, and God sends someone to save you, but for him to be able to save you you have to be ready to accept his help, you have to be baptized, you have to receive the gifts of the holy spirit and receive the holy spirit, you have to ask for forgiveness of sins and you have to follow everything God commanded, if not you cannot be saved, believing Jesus is the one sent to save you is not enough. Faith without works is dead.
Heaven is real, Hell is real, If you miss heaven you cannot miss hell.

Wow... all you have done is repeat doctrine that has been showed meaningless over and over again -- doctrine that does not align with the word of God.

You are not drowning at all. Remember, we were all condemned by our sins since the time of Adam to perish as a result of our sins. Even when God was working with His beloved Israel, what do you think was happening to the rest of the world out there, outside of the descendants of Israel? They were perishing in their sins -- returned back to dust upon death. That was the fate of all those who did not believe in God, and lived in sin as a result.

Jesus Christ showed up and was lifted so that all those who believe in Him can instead of perishing(dust to dust), live forever. But that was not all that Jesus Christ came as. He came as the Way to God, the Truth of God, as well as Eternal life, which He made freely available to all those who accept/believe in Him.

As the truth of God, His words are the word out of God' own mouth. However, as the way, He is in fact a New Covenant, an agreement between God and man, separate from the agreement that exists between God and the descendants of Israel(The Old Covenant delivered by Moses to the people of Israel).

Most definitely, according to Jesus Christ Himself, not all those who call Him Lord, Lord, will enter into His Kingdom of Heaven. No! Only those who obey His commandments (the New Covenant that is Jesus Christ) will enter into His kingdom. Others, who believe, will go the other way. He told His followers' many parables concerning this too.