The Nigerian Writers' Archive and Documentation Series

Preamble:
Nigerian Writing is arguably the most vibrant of contemporary literary cultures of postcolonial Africa. The history of acclaim associated with literatures produced by Nigerians at home and abroad is indicative of earlier efforts to promote and sustain the vibrancy of the arts in the society.

In spite of such organizational effort, the popular reception of Nigerian literatures has been very minimal, and confined mainly to academic circles such that writers who are widely read outside the country are hardly known at home (in the country). It is instructive that new generation of writers who have been very active and productive remain obscure and unknown in the popular imagination of the Nigerian society. Worse still, the achievements of established writers, of the older generation, are rarely preserved; neither do they have much significant influence on public discourse in the country.

The first in the series took place between Mrs. Mabel Segun and Prof. Akachi Adimora-Ezeigbo in July 2003. It was moderated by the president of Nigeria PEN Centre, Prof. Femi Osofisan. The transcript of the dialogue follows:

Introduction
My name is Femi Osofisan, and I am the current President of the Nigerian Centre of International PEN. It is my pleasure to welcome you on behalf of the Centre to this programme of Literary Dialogue. PEN, as many of you know, is an international organisation that brings together poets, playwrights, essayists, journalists, novelists, in short, all men and women whose business is the production of literature. The aim of the association is to promote literary activities everywhere beyond all frontiers whether of race or religion or country, clan or community, training or tongue. Naturally therefore, our activities bear a lot on the defence and protection of writers. Thus, PEN is an advocacy group for persecuted writers and has succeeded in many cheering instances of bringing freedom and relief to such writers.

Still, one primary goal is the promotion of literature itself and the enrichment of the conditions and processes of its creativity. For PEN in Nigeria, we have been acutely aware of the gradually dwindling interest in literature in our country. We, like other enlightened citizens, have been very concerned by this only because literature is part of the ennobling heritage of any nation, indeed, of all humanity.

Writers are not only eloquent chroniclers of the adventures of the people through history but they also provide insight and the vision by which we can truthfully predict and map out the roads of our future. If literature dies then, then the very life of the nation itself is in jeopardy. It is because of this looming danger to our cultural patrimony that we have conceived this programme which is funded by the American Centre of International PEN and the Rockefeller Foundation. It will consist of a series of dialogue between representatives of different generations of our writers. They will discuss their works, their preferred audiences, their sources of inspiration, the obstacles they encounter, their dreams and visions about our nation and our people, and hopefully through that they can stimulate and revive the creative genius that exists among our people especially our young and budding talents.

The dialogue today will be between a multi-talented woman activist and eminent writer, Mrs. Mabel Segun, who we can describe as the matriarch of Nigerian letters, and is a Trustee of the Association of Nigerian Authors (ANA), on the one hand; and on the other, Professor Mrs. Akachi Ezeigbo, current Head of the Department of English at the University of Lagos, who has recently emerged also as one of our most accomplished writers. Mabel Segun's works include numerous books for children such as Youth Day Parade, The Twins and the Tree Spirit, Olu and the Broken Statue, The First Corn, plus two collections of songs and poems for primary schools entitled Under the Mango Tree, and a collection of adult fiction entitled The Surrender and Other Stories, plus a collection of poems entitled Conflict and Other Poems and an autobiography in two parts: first, My Father's Daughter followed by My Mother's Daughter.

Akachi also has written many works for children such as Alani the Trouble-maker and Other Stories, The Price, The Buried Treasure, as well as adult fiction including three collection of short stories: Rhythms of Life, Rituals and Departures, and Echoes in the Mind and especially a celebrated trilogy starting from The Last of the Strong Ones to House of Symbols, and Children of the Eagle.

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FEMI OSOFISAN (FO): How did you start writing, particularly Mabel Segun? In those days there weren't so many writers. In fact there were hardly any writers. So how did you start writing and what provoked you into writing?

MABEL SEGUN (MS): Well, I was lucky to have been born into a family of writers. I get quite a few of my subjects from what I read in the newspapers. Well, a writer should be very observant and I tend to watch people, and listen to them even when I'm outside, I think about a person and I think "Is this person a wife-beater", for example, when I look at a man. And I can weave a story around that. I saw a girl running one day, and she was running very fast. And this policewoman was chasing her, and I began to imagine all sorts of things. In the end, the bus pulled up, the girl went in, and the policewoman went in too. It turned out both of them were trying to catch a bus. But then I thought to myself, "Suppose they were not trying to catch a bus, why should the policewoman be running after her?" So I find myself when I'm walking around, I'm thinking and thinking all the time, wondering, weaving stories around people. And sometimes a story may be in my head for two whole years…

FO: What you're saying essentially is that you get your own inspiration from actual life or what you observe. What about that Akachi, is it the same thing?

AKACHI EZEIGBO (AE): Yes, I also get some of my storyline or themes of what I write about, just the same way you do. Like I said before, it's a whole lot of sources, you know. For instance, sometimes what I read also gives me a kind of opening to weave a story around it. Sometimes it may be listening to people talk. For instance, one of my stories was developed around something a friend told me about somebody who took someone else's land by force and then built a house on that land. And then the house collapsed. That set me thinking, and I wove a story around it. So I agree with you that most of the time we take experiences around us or things we see or things we hear. That has been my experience.

FO: Akachi, when you began to write, Mabel Segun and had written, and I'm wondering whether there was any direct influence either through their reputation or their works, on people in your own generation that began to write… Were you inspired by this or you didn't really know about them or what?

AE: No I didn't. In fact most of what I read when I was much younger than this was mostly written by men. I was educated in a mission school and we were introduced to Charles Dickens and other English writers. Oh yes, I read Jane Austen but I cannot really say that I was inspired by their writing. I think that writing is something innate, there's something within that actually makes you think you can be a writer. If you're going to be a writer you would be a writer because there's something inside us that pushes us to write. But I agree that you need to read a lot to develop that talent in you. There has to be that talent…

MS: Actually, you couldn't have been inspired by me because I was published mostly in German. What really gave us exposure - all of us, men and women, in the early days - was the existence of magazines. You see, I don't think people should wait until they write full-length novels, There are people who can write short stories, poems and all; the exposure is necessary…

On Self Publishing
FO: What would you say is the state of literature today in Nigeria as compared to when you started?

MS: I don't know. I think things are worse than before. And talking about the production and availability of books now, writers have to publish their own works. I never had to publish my own work. That is very restrictive. It reduces the number of people who write or even the number of books that could be written by one person.

FO: Akachi, what's your own view?

AE: I quite agree with what she has said. The issue of self-publishing is not very healthy even though when we look at it from the other side you wonder what would people do when they have manuscripts they have kept for years and nobody is asking them for it. Nobody shows any interest in having writers published. People want their works to be in print and they go ahead and publish it. I think that to some extent one might allow for self-publishing but it is necessary to have whatever is going to be published properly edited. I think the major problem is that there are many of those books that are published without proper editing, and the standard is quite low. So what I'm saying is that self publishing is not the best but people are doing it because the publishing state in this country today is poor. Many publishing companies are not publishing; they are not doing anything. So to that extent, literature is affected adversely. I know that when I was in secondary school or when I was in the university, the books were everywhere. I mean if you wanted any book, you'd get copies to buy. Your problem was if you had the money to buy. But there are many books today you don't see if you go to the bookshops. Even some of our established writers, it's not always easy to find their books to buy and yet these books were published by some of our established publishers. So I think that we need to have books available for people. That will help to uplift the literature.

Of Critics and Criticism
MS: And I think that brings us also to the question of the part that government should take in the provision of libraries.

AE: Libraries, yes. And I also want to talk about the state of criticism because that ultimately affects the state of the literature. You see, I think that one problem we have in Nigeria today is that sometimes critics are not doing what they should be doing. Many critics today are not producing excellent works. Maybe they don't even have the time to produce. There are still good critics.

MS: Are you talking of critics who write books or…?

AE: I am talking about critics who midwife these books that come out. You know critics need to give support to writers and publishers by writing about what they have published. You know sometimes people have read reviews in books and they go looking for those books. I know that…

MS: But do you know that you have to pay for reviews these days?

AE: Yeah. We need people to review books, good reviews. Sometimes you read a good book review. I have specifically bought books especially books published abroad by reading reviews on these books. I sent for them. To my friends who are overseas, I said, "Can you send me this book, I just heard about it?" And nobody is doing that kind of thing anymore…

MS: You know, even for children's' literature! There was a time, for about two years I had a little Mabel Page in Junior Guardian, and I used to review books there, definitely to introduce them to books.

FO: Well, in defence of criticism, I'll say that the ones we read abroad are actually paid for. People can live as critics, write reviews for newspapers and they are paid. Here, nobody pays. So, it's difficult to make a living of this. That's part of the problem.

AKACHI EZEIGBO reads from Children of the Eagle


Myths fascinate me. I can hardly think of anything that displays the power of human imagination better than myth. As a young girl, I read books about the great myths of the past ages and civilizations. My adventures into the world of books were spiced with exotic tales, chronicling myths from unfamiliar cultures, warbling strange songs… But before my flirtation with foreign myths and fairy tales, I have been suckled at the oozing breasts of Umuga myths, legends and folktales. Can I ever forget the uncountable sessions of telling and re-telling of these myths and heroic tales by various narrators, ranging from Mama to my grandmothers? The narrators included occasional visitors to our home. Hypnotised, I sat before them and listened to enchanting tales that would later form the bedrock of some of my writing. These tales are indeed, an Umuga heirloom.

On Women Writers
FO: The problems you have encountered as female writers… starting to write, you know… I'm interested in this because some of the things I've heard are not different really from what male writers have encountered. But I have a feeling that there must be some peculiar problems to women in this aspect.

MS: I think the main thing is this lack of critical thinking. I remember somebody in a university in the US. She wrote a letter to me in which she said 'we heard you write and you get your works published, and nobody says anything about it!' She said she enjoyed My Father's Daughter, and My Mother's Daughter. She did her Masters (thesis) on those two books. People outside Nigeria have written about My Father's Daughter and My Mother's Daughter. But then, while I was still in the university, there was this person who was researching the subject of autobiographical works. He was supervised by a Nigerian professor who was even very close to me. I was never mentioned in that. How do you explain that?

AE: Well, I have confronted some of my male colleagues who have published books. And I asked them "Why have you done this study and not a single woman writer in it?" I won't mention names now but there is a colleague of mine, whom I regard as a friend, who did a critical work on Drama, Nigerian playwrights. Not a single woman in that book! And this book came out about two or three years ago. He sent me a copy. I commended the effort but I also told him that I was shocked to see that he did not discuss a single Nigerian woman playwright. And we have playwrights like Tess Onwueme, Zulu Sofola and many others who are writing. And I ask "Why did you not include one of them?"

FO: Did you think there's any cultural problem here?

AE: I think so, yes.

MS: …It doesn't happen only in writing. It happens also even in the church. I mean why are people refusing to ordain women priests? As far as I am concerned, the women I've heard preach preach much better than the men. And I think it's all about the fear of women. Most of these things are due to the fear of what women are capable of doing.

FO: Do you agree with that?

AE: I think that one way we can get around this problem is to encourage more and more women to go into criticism and to become critics. I know that in my department, it's been an ongoing battle. I try to make sure that women are put on the syllabus. You see, sometimes many of the male lecturers teach courses without a single female author in that course. I'm trying to encourage them to do that. And I have made sure that all my courses have both male and female authors whether they are foreign authors, whether I'm teaching a course in English literature or African literature. I include women poets, women playwrights, and women novelists just as I put male playwrights, male novelists and male poets. I think that we need to have a kind of balance, gender balance, otherwise the women would be completely forgotten and it would seem as if they're not writing. Because when somebody is writing and is not being read, you are killing that person. You are neglecting that person, and it's not good for the writer. Now, I have done some work on you (Mabel Segun), which has been published…

MS: Published? I haven't seen it.

AE: And I think this is the kind of thing we need to do for women writers.

FO: I'm interested in that. You portrayed women who rebel and one would think that's almost a self-portrait because you have never really accepted to be dormant and a victim. So…

MS: Did I hear you well?

FO: Yes, you have never accepted to be just a victim, and you have not been defeated. So why are these women defeated?

MS: I think I'm stronger than them. (Laughs)

FO: Well, because I think you're doing exactly what Akachi does, to present these women who triumph over obstacles,… Am I right?

AE: That's a bit of what I do. One needs to encourage women, to show them that they can survive.

MS: Women now have opportunities for employment. In those days they could only be teachers, or nurses, or what else? Some very few ones became doctors or lawyers. But they were very few.

FO: Some people say that, in fact, they were happier then. What's your view?

MS: (giggles) That's what they want to hear. Those must be men, I'm sure.

FO: Some people say that women then might not have reached the material success…

MS: In other words, ignorance is bliss. Is that what you're saying?

AE: No. I don't think they were happier but they accepted it. It was a culture of silence in which they operated, and they were intimidated, they were silenced and they could not articulate their pains as today's women are doing.

MS: And the culture is still very strong of male domination, even among the women! The other day I was driving along the road and some drivers were misbehaving, you know, parking on both sides and things like that. And I was trying to manoeuvre, and then this woman - you wouldn't believe it - said "Aha, now you can appreciate what 'Daddy' has been doing, you know, he taught you how to drive a car' And incidentally, I taught "Daddy" to drive!

MABEL SEGUN reads from My Father's Daughter

A few months after I was eight, Father came back ill from attending the yearly Synod meeting in Lagos. Three days later he had to be taken to a hospital in Ibadan. When I saw my powerful Father being supported by two men, unable to walk by himself, I cried because I remembered how he used to put even the big Standard Six boys over his arm. He wore a thick dressing gown over his night-shirt and that was how he went to Ibadan. Mother and one of the servants accompanied him in the kitcar which had been hired for the purpose. They did not come back till the evening of the next day.
My first brother and I were in the nursery when Sam rushed in in great agitation and said, 'Papa is dead.' For one moment there was silence in the room, then Okhen gave a great shout and leapt out of the window. Sam rushed outside and I rushed after him. We found Okhen rolling on the ground and weeping as if her heart would burst. Sam tried to lift her up but she resisted him.
By this time a large crowd had gathered in front of our house and loud wailing was coming from the women. Ruth was leaning against a tree with her one year-old son in her arms and lamenting in her sing-song voice. 'My saviour is dead. My refuge is gone, gone, gone.'

On Writing for Children
FO: I find it extremely hard to write anything for children.

MS: I've seen some really successful writers for adults who tried their hands on children literature, and they failed. You have to be a child yourself. There's a bit of the child, in fact a lot of the child in me. I enjoy the things that children enjoy. And that is why if you can't do that, you can't write for children. And that's something which I can do very easily. I become a child and I talk to the child.

AE: I think it requires more than that. You have to have the vocabulary, you know. Why many people find…

MS: If you relate to a child, you're about to know the vocabulary…

AE: It has to be consciously done. It's not very easy for you to become a child, but you need to consciously cultivate the technique for writing for children. I agree with you that there's a way you can put yourself in their position. But you also have to put yourself above them to be able to… Sometimes, I actually listen to them talk because at my age now writing for children, it's not easy for me to remember (how) to be like a child who is five years (old) but sometimes, especially, I think that is why maybe it's easier for people who have nine children to write for children because you (can then) study them.

MS: When my daughter was small, she had a lion under her bed. Yes, she talked to this lion and I went along with the game. I'll go into her room and ask "How's Mr. Lion today?" And she'll tell me how Mr Lion (was)…

AE: So you were observing her, in short?

MS: …and we both talked to Mr Lion under the bed.

AE: You were observing the child, that's (it). I agree with you there. You see you need to…

MS: No. In that way, I was a child also because I enjoyed talking to Mr Lion.

Future Projects
FO: If you were asked to write something now. Suppose the conditions were right, if you were asked to write your next novel, what would it be about?

MS: I have one (already) if I'm allowed to spend a little more time on this earth. I think I have something in mind about… [pause]

FO: Do you want to tell us what is it about?

MS: Yes.

FO: Okay.

MS: [pause] I have the title but I don't know how I'm going to write it (yet).

FO: What's the story about?

MS: I don't have a story yet.

FO: What's the title?

MS: "Daughters are forever."

AE: On my part, if I have the opportunity to write a novel now - I don't have much opportunity to write now because of the nature of my duties - but if I have time to write now, I'll write something very contemporary. I am thinking in that direction, looking at contemporary society and what people are making of it.

FO: Politics?

AE: Politics, yes; and relationship between men and women in this age and time. That's the kind of thing that really gets me; I have the urge to write something about that.

FO: Let me just end by asking you what you would advise the young writer now.

MS: I think they should soldier on. I think that's all.

AE: If you're really interested in writing - publishing is good - but you have to write and write well. And I'm sure that anything that is well written would definitely see the light of day someday.

FO: Well, thank you very much.

From PEN Nigerian Centre