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Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 11:08am On May 30, 2021 |
shadeyinka: I do recognise that you are not totally disagreeing with me. You should in fact notice that you and I have evolved past that point of not seeing the other person's position and just disagreeing as a matter of course just recently, and are now prepared to at least consider each others position, for which I give thanks and praises and the glory to the Lord God Almighty. shadeyinka: A lot of editing did go on in the Christenisation of the Tanakh into the Septuagint. Cultural differences alone would have caused some of this along with various other reasons, but the Tanakh itself had gone through codification long before then with unacceptable books not being included, which is editing. And I would think if books found unacceptable could have been edited out, it sure would be very easy to edit out disapproved verses. I believe that you will be amazed at what you will discover if you researched into this. Look for comparisons between the Tanakh (instead of just the first five books which is what the Torah is) and the Old Testament. The following are a few suggested places to begin, but dig deeper much please. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint?wprov=sfla1 https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/tools/bible-basics/what-is-the-difference-between-the-old-testament-the-tanakh-and-the-hebrew-bible https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible?wprov=sfla1 |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 12:46pm On May 30, 2021 |
budaatum:Good budaatum:What I meant was that Jews and Christians would never conive to jointly edit their Tanakh and Old Testament because both at these times were at loggerheads with each other. I have had the opportunity of reading the Tanakh (in English Language) translated by Adherents of Judaism and to the best of my knowledge and understanding, they are the same. Differences could be understood in light of rules of translation adopted and theological biases. If you have the time, you can check out interlinear translations used by Christians (for the Old Testament) and interlinear translations used by the Jews (in translating the Tanakh into English). Except you want to make the admission that the Christians ADOPTED the Editing done by the Jews in the practice of Judaism. Many people who claim that the books considered by the church as apocrypha such as 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, Rest of Esther Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy , Song of the Three Children, Story of Susanna, The Idol Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees has been edited out of the bible are either mischievious or plain ignorant. Why!? 1. Christians have no part in the writing or compilation of the tanakh which forms a basis for our old testament. Hence, isn't it proper that the christian Old Testament be as used by adherents of Judaism? 2. Some of these books are of great historical values and are in the Library of the Jewish Rabbi BUT are no regarded as scriptures by them. Since the Tankah forms the basis of the Christian Old Testament, why should these people cry more than the bereaved? 3. Must every old book in the Jewish rabbi library collection be classed as scripture? budaatum:The Tankh is Divided into three parts 1. Law (Torah): Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy 2. Prophets (Nevi’im) Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and The Twelve (Minor prophets in the OT) 3. Writings (Ketuvim) Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, Chronicles The difference between the Protestant Bible and the Tanakh is mainly in the arrangement of the books NOT in textual differences. Of course the Jews had other books that are not regarded as inspired by God and is in their religious library BUT some people are of the opinion that these are the books edited out of the bible. I do not take that view. |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 1:51pm On May 30, 2021 |
shadeyinka: As I said, and as you'd find by following the links and asking and knocking and seeking so you see and know for yourself. budaatum: You'd find there are subtle changes even in translations that are enough to make a difference. A prominent historical one was the result of the Protestant uprising, which was due to differences in translations, the significances of which are lost to us modern readers. |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 7:29pm On May 30, 2021 |
budaatum:I've heard the argument of the bible being changed and edited from the original that I had to take an independent study. What I realized was that the proponent of this theory seem confused about who they are really accusing. Is it the Tanakh that has suffered the change or the Bible? If the Bible adopted the Tanakh as its old testament, should it be the bible that has suffered the said changes or the Tanakh? Forgive me for being too religious BUT Jesus used this same Tanakh and quoted from some of them without raising the question of editing and change. Then who am I to insist that the scriptures we used have been doctored away from the original when my Master Jesus didn't raise such objection!? I will take such objection to the changes in the Torah seriously if it can be shown that changes occured after the death of Christ. The question is: what was the original form the complete Tanakh or Bible started out as? To proof that a currency is fake, you need proofs from the original 2. The Torah is the result of a long process of editing (or redaction, as it is called by scholars). This means that there is no one date that one can be pointed to as the date of composition. Most scholars think that the final major redactions took place after 539 BCE when Cyrus the Great conquered the Neo-Babylonian Empire.It was insinuated that the name Yahweh was replaced by other synonyms like "the Lord God Almighty" or its variants. Is this the editing you speak about or outright fabrications? I know that a lot of fabrications went into the Jewish Midrash but not the Tanakh! 3. The books of the Christian Bible were arranged in the sequence one finds them in today to tell the story of the creation of the world by a supreme deity, the fall of man from paradise, and humanity's redemption by the Son of God but these books were not written in that sequence nor would the original authors of the Old Testament works have had that particular story in mind.But God did not arrange the sequence of arrangement of the books in the Tanakh. And the books were not even written by the authors with an understanding that it would be compiled into a single book. The arrangement of the books in the bible according to chronology of events to me is like arranging your book collection in a particular order. Would this be part of the editing that has been done on the scripture? 4..the Hebrew Bible did not begin as a single book; rather, it developed over time through the compilation of many Judean texts. The texts, though, were not always understood as divinely inspired, authoritative, holy texts; the role of Judean texts in religious expression developed between the 6th century BCE and 1st century CE.The books of the Law had been read since the time of Moses when the Torah wasn't even complete. The Torah was completed AFTER the death of Moses. Even then, the five books of the Torah were regarded as separate books having different themes Genesis: Origin of everything and why things are what they are Exodus: Slavery in Egypt and Eventual freedom of Israel Leviticus: Instructions to conduct of worship headed by the levitical order Numbers: Genealogies of the tribes of Israel Deuteronomy: The Law compiled.. The question we should ask is : did Jesus condemn the canonization of the books of the Tanakh knowing that He quoted from the Psalms, the Torah, the Prophets (Isaiah) etc. If we can prove that the Tanakh was edited AFTER the death of Christ, then it becomes a serious issue to be looked at. budaatum:This is why as Christians we must sometimes consult Interlinear Hebrew and Greek Translation of the bible. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1.htm |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 8:01pm On May 30, 2021 |
shadeyinka:It is not about accusing anyone, Shadeyinka, but first finding out if the editing and changing had at all occurred, and only then can we go looking for a culprit who done it if at all it was done. Fact is, The Bible is significantly different to the Tanakh, and the Bibles we read today differ to the Septuagint. The later we know from the persecution of Martin Luther, and the former can be easily found through research. shadeyinka:Forgive you for believing the Gospels we read were not all written after Paul's letters, and not that anyone actually recorded what Christ said or did during his lifetime? Trust me Shadeyinka when I say I have no choice but to forgive you for not knowing all this since it is not what you have been made to believe, though I will not easily forgive you for not asking and knocking and seeking with all your heart and soul and mind and being so you may know the truth instead of merely believing what you believe. Good thing however is that buda is not God, so buda's forgiveness is irrelevant. But do remember that we already did discuss how beliefs make some refuse to learn and claim the living died. shadeyinka:You will live long enough to be empowered to ask and knock and seek for yourself in Jesus Most Mighty Name. shadeyinka:As in, [url=https://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+8%3A3&version=NIV]we must not live by bread alone or we shall become malnourished[/url]? Do know that I buda 110% agree with you most completely. |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 10:02pm On May 30, 2021 |
budaatum:The bible is different from the Tanakh because the bible adds upon the tanakh the sets of books called the New Testament. Other than this except in translations I don't see any difference. budaatum:Forgive me for not knowing!? I guess you mean: forgiveness for knowing that which differs from what you Buda knows. budaatum:Amen. The only one who truly know everything is one who can never be wrong! 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 4:57pm On May 31, 2021 |
shadeyinka: That is precisely what I should have said, do please forgive me. Though I must wonder if it is about what we know as individuals or what is knowable if we ask and knock and seek with our God given senses. You and I have to someday return to the differences between 'knowing' and 'believing', or 'knowledge' and 'belief', as there is still much work to be done there. |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 2:10pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
shadeyinka: I judge all things by what I witness and the power developed by using my mind to comprehend. shadeyinka: So, only through Scripture, and not a burning bush, nor as a pillar of cloud by day, and as a pillar of fire by night; or as a "whisper" to Elijah and in visions to other prophets, nor to King Solomon in a "dream", promising to grant what he asked; and I guess Jacob wrestled not with the Face of God all night at Peniel, nor through Jesus Christ himself nor the Holy Spirit sent to guide us? And when I accuse you of book worship, thou doth protest so much. Scripture, along with all the things before your eyes that have been created by the Word, and most especially one's neighbours and the world that one sees before oneself, and not by the bread alone! shadeyinka: By their fruits, Shade. The fruits that the lights produce. The criteria for wheat and chaff. That's how to distinguish light from The Light.
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Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 2:39pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
budaatum:There is no problem with using our God given mind to reason. A complete human being should ALSO use his soundness of reason to comprehend, judge and discern both physical and non physical information before him But because our understanding can sometimes be faulty, it is NOT the final umpire of right or wrong Prov 3:5-6 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight. budaatum:I never said the bolded. The scriptures give us a guide to what is right or wrong that we might be able to use them to judge and rightfully direct our future decisions. There is no just reasons that will permit evil in the name of reason against the scriptures budaatum:The scripture below show how Jesus Himself view the scripture Luke 10:25-29 “What is written in the law?” He asked him. “How do you read it?” He answered: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” “You’ve answered correctly,” He told him. “Do this and you will live.” But wanting to justify himself, he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”. Matt5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. budaatum:Ps 119:105-106 105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. 106 I have sworn and confirmed that I will keep Your righteous judgments The Word helps us to know if our light is consistent with the Light of God |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 2:57pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
budaatum:Knowledge and Knowing is ALWAYS relative as long as we are in this world. Only God has the prerogative of Absolute knowledge. 1 Cor 13:8-12 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. I think you have treated in our discussions the subject of knowing/knowledge[b][/b] as absolute (i.e. once you know, your knowledge is perfect) Unfortunately, for unconstrained things/events of the future, it is impossible to completely know instead, for things of the future, we at best can claim a belief (based on our imperfect knowledge) of what the future will be. Knowledge/Knowing (in unconstrained circumstances) is only applicable within jurisdictions where our field of influence or control is complete Belief is applicable within jurisdictions where our field of influence or control is limited |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 3:22pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
shadeyinka: I have treated nothing of the sort in the manner you have fashioned for yourself here, that "once you know your knowledge is perfect", and I am in fact troubled that you can misrepresent me so, though surprised not since you have shown a tendency for seeing the living as dead and black as white. But see as you make stuff up to believe instead of accepting what you see with your own eyes! Know that I see it. I have in fact forever maintained the exact opposite, that once you believe you know you will stop learning. That, after all, is why I insist one must continue to eat the fruits of knowledge instead of fearing more knowledge kills. Even Christ said [url=https://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+13%3A33&version=KJV]continue learning[/url]! budaatum: One must consider refraining from continously bearing false witness to oneself because it can not be wise to so do.
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Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 3:37pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
budaatum:Thanks for clearing that impression about knowledge. If there are things we agree about with respect to knowledge are: 1. Knowledge/Knowing isn't absolute wrt humans 2. Knowledge/Knowing is not perfect 3. Knowledge is to be continually sought after till we leave this world 4. Knowledge make a person wise. 5. Knowledge is a sum of information and experience we have If these above are all correct about knowledge, there is a question that need be asked. 1. Can a knowledge/knowing be wrong? |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 3:37pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
budaatum: |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 3:55pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
shadeyinka: All well and good if you are starting out in life, but rather impractical after many years of seek and ask and knock with one's own heart and soul and mind and being sharpened by God. At some point, the Kingdom of God must stop coming at you from a book because the Kingdom of God is from within making your path straight. How else can you possibly be perfect like your Father in Heaven if you do not let the Knowledge of God build your mind?
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Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 3:59pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
shadeyinka: Yes, "a knowledge/knowing and knower, I dare add, can be very wrong". We see this replete in history. At one point a dome was over the earth until it wasn't. At some point the sun and stars revolved around the supreme earth until humans knew their place. There are still some who think they can fall off the edge of earth, and many who pray for manna from heaven or think trump won the last election. Some even wrongly think eating fruits of knowledge would kill them even though Adam and Eve lived. There's all sorts out there, Shade, as we can clearly obviously see. Most, if not all the above, are "wrong knowings", or at least would be considered to be wrong by most sane sense using humans. I myself can be wrong numerous times during the day. An example is that I'm sitting in the living room wondering if I shut the fridge, which I of course did, I say to myself to avoid getting off my ass to go check. But I now have gotten off my ass and gone to check and can assure you as a knower who has the correct knowing that the fridge was indeed closed which I indeed knew because I always double check the fridge is closed when I shut the fridge because I know I must always check the fridge is shut when I close the fridge because I have found I have in the past known I closed the fridge that I have found to be open, as in unclosed. Its like an OCD for knowledge, except its for understanding. Imagine some spirit thingy leaving my fridge open. |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 4:00pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
budaatum:Knowledge and Knowing is BOTH information and experience. The Logos is information, The Relationship brings experience Neither the Logos nor the Experience can be done away with. |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 4:06pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
budaatum:Good, we are heading to the same page now. In other words 1. A knowledge/knowing can be TRUE 2. A knowledge/knowing can be FALSE Just as 1. A knowledge/knowing can be COMPLETE 2. A knowledge/knowing can be INCOMPLETE So, the next question: Is a Belief always devoid of Knowledge/Knowing? |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 4:07pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
shadeyinka: The Logos is information, to those who must believe, but to those who seek understanding, the Logos is quite a lot more. https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Logos https://www.rep.routledge.com/articles/thematic/logos/v-1
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Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 4:31pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
shadeyinka:An expressed or believed belief can be devoid of knowledge or based on knowledge. I can believe I have a million pounds in my bank account whether I have a million pounds or not, but I'm certain to meet some resistance when I try to buy a real spanking brand new red ferrari with the million pounds I believe I have. And so I'd call up my bank for my credit, and the bank would tell me how much I have in my account with them so I stop believing what I now know. And when I stand in front of the Ferrari salesperson, I can say what I know with the authority that the bank will back me up or not as would actually be the case. Fact is, the believer knows if they have checked or are just stating what it is that they believe, and if it is what they believe, they should know they ought to ask and knock and seek to know instead of mere believing and lying that it is based on some knowledge they deep down know they lack.
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Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 9:08pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
budaatum:Hmn! The question has assumed that some believed beliefs are based on weak speculations devoid of facts such as a statement like "twins bring bad luck to the community" or "whistling at night attract ghosts to the whistler". The question was: Is a Belief always devoid of Knowledge/Knowing? |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 9:14pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
budaatum:The Logos without any bias is just a historical information (it doesn't matter if one believes it or not). Logos can become Rhema when it becomes personal and real to the hearer |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 9:22pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
shadeyinka: Since "some believed beliefs are based on weak speculations devoid of facts such as a statement like "twins bring bad luck to the community" or "whistling at night attract ghosts to the whistler"", as you have stated, it must go to reason that some beliefs are devoid of knowledge/knowing, and can actually be the opposite of knowledge which is ignorance, which a fitting description for those who ignore knowledge. As to your "always", etiquette in my field insist that believing means you do not really know. We do not believe we will profit or succeed in my field. We ask and knock and seek instead so we may know. budaatum: |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 9:23pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
shadeyinka: It matters immensely however if understood. |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 10:03pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
budaatum:By Definition Both logos and rhema are the Word of God, but the former is God's Word objectively recorded in the Bible, while the latter is the word of God spoken to us at a specific occasion . According to Nee a passage of the logos can move into being rhema if it becomes shown to apply to the specific individual. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhema_(doctrine) |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 10:05pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
budaatum:You are being evasive to the question which in its simplest form, the answer is a YES or NO answer Is a Belief always devoid of Knowledge/Knowing? |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 11:12pm On Jul 19, 2021 |
shadeyinka: No, shade. A belief, though often devoid of knowledge/knowing, is not always devoid of Knowledge/Knowing. Very very often though, you believe because you haven't bothered to ask and knock and seek and eat of the fruit of knowledge to find out for yourself. Hence, science. The use of the heart and the soul and the mind and the being, to ask and knock and seek and research so one may actually know, more, so to speak..
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Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 7:13am On Jul 20, 2021 |
budaatum:Okay: Even though some believed beliefs are devoid of Knowledge/knowing, some believed beliefs are guided by Knowledge/knowing. Examples of such: 1. An army general planned an assault on hill 732 against Taliban forces dug in a defensive position. a. Does he know the outcome of his assault or believe in the outcome? 2. The Nigeria Olympic 400m relay track and field coach has trained his athletes for the Tokyo games. a. Does he know the outcome of his coaching or believe in the outcome? 3. A student prepared very hard for his JAMB exam. a. Does he know the whether he will lead the exam or believe he would lead in the exam? If your choices for these three questions are beliefs rather than knowing are these mere exceptions of reasoning/knowledge/knowing accompanying BELIEFS/BELIEVING? |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 11:44am On Jul 20, 2021 |
shadeyinka:He neither knows nor believes in the outcome! He simple does what he can and hopes for a favourable outcome. shadeyinka:Same here. He neither knows nor believes in the outcome. He simple does what he can and hopes for a favourable outcome. shadeyinka:Same here. He neither knows nor believes in the outcome. He simple does what he can and hopes for a favourable outcome. In none of the cases above does what is believed affect the outcome apart from the motivational effect it might have on the participant. I have assumed none of them have special powers like the ability to time travel. An example is two boxer about to fight each other. Do they know whether they will lose or win the fight or believe they will lose or win the fight? Tadej Podgacar of UAE Emirates Team did not know nor believe he would win a stage, and that is why he and his team trained really hard and won the Tour. Do see here you asking similar questions, and note my response has not changed. |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 1:31pm On Jul 20, 2021 |
budaatum:Your response is full of bigotry. No sane General will send his forces to assault a stronghold without believing that his tactics and strategy will work except he is an incompetent fool and a murderer of his soldiers. Let me back this up with the words of Christ that it may make sense to you. Luk 14:31-32: "Or what king, going to make war against another king, sits not down first, and consults whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that comes against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends an ambassador, and desires conditions of peace." Ask any boxer prior to a match, he will give you reasons why he would win the contest. You'll hear things like "Mike Tyson may be strong, but I am fast and smart". If you know any boxer who declared that he would lose a fight even before it began I will be grateful. A Team will train harder than their opponents so that they can win the match. No one ever trains hard and hope on mother luck except if he finds deficiency in his trainings and tactics. Why train when winning is about luck? Why study when leading an exam is by luck? Why assault your enemy when victory is by luck? Every army has what is called acceptable casualty limit often factored into every offensive |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by budaatum: 5:13pm On Jul 20, 2021 |
shadeyinka: Then let it be so, shadeyinka, if that is what you wish to convince yourself to be true. Do however know that I do not partake of your belief. |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by shadeyinka(m): 6:55pm On Jul 20, 2021 |
budaatum:I was disappointed with your response because it clearly contradicts your position that there are some Believed Beliefs that is from knowledge budaatum: Unfortunately you refuse to look at instances (I gave as examples) where Believed Believing are NOT devoid of knowledge. It seems ALL examples I can give will be met with the stance of "the believed believing is devoid of knowledge!" Can you then according to your statement "A belief, though often devoid of knowledge/knowing, is not always devoid of Knowledge/Knowing." give three good suitable examples of the exceptions? Wise Buda: Please oblige me just three suitable examples! |
Re: What Is The Real Name Of The Islamic God? by Ayomivic(m): 8:07pm On Jul 20, 2021 |
Aketi2: Ilah or Allah is not even a name of any gods. Since it means god and God is not a name but title it is general noun just like man . Every adult male are men and every man must have name that distinguish him from another man. Islam is a scam |
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