@babs787,

To make it easier for you, here is the thread - and the answers to the questions on Sura 19.71 that you haven`t musterred the courage to check out.

Quote from: Tiptronic on July 18, 2007, 11:41 PM
Here are nearly all of them:

19:71 And every one of you will come within sight of it: this is, with thy Sustainer, a decree that must be fulfilled. (M Asad)

19:71 Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished. (Yusuf Ali)

19:71 There is not one of you but shall approach it. That is a fixed ordinance of thy Lord. (Picktall)

19:71 And there is not one of you but shall come to it; this is an unavoidable decree of your Lord. (Shakir)

19:71 Not one of you there is, but he shall go down to it; that for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined. (Arberry)

19:71 There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished. (Khan/Muhsin)

NONE of which say anything about going into hell, or burning in hell.


In any case, please take a look at Arberry:

19:71 Not one of you there is, but he shall go down to it; that for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined.

I made a simple case of people being made to "enter" into Hell fire by Allah's irrevocable decree; and you only came back sweating to argue against it while unwittingly establishing my point! This is unbelieveable! If you're so convinced that NONE of the translations you offered said anything about "going into hell", could you kindly tell us what Arberry meant by stating infact that they "go down to" it? What really is the difference your argument makes between --

going into hell -- (yours)

and

going down to hell? -- (Arberry's)

Okay I noticed that you are not ready to think . He gave you verses from other translations but you were glued to one. Please jst like I asked you in other thread, what is the relationship between a bird and an angel. A verse fro one translator said an angel while another said it was an eagle, please which do we accept. When you provide answer, I will then provide explanation on your ignorance.


Do we say KJV is right or other version cos they didnt mention same thing?

For graphic effect, add to that semantics the translation offered by Dr. Mohammad Mahmoud Ghali whose translation is heralded as a "masterpiece" by Muslims. This is how he translates that verse:

'And decidedly not one of you (there is), except that he will go (herded) down to it;
that, for your Lord, has been a thing decreed, a must.'

So, Tiptronic, please kindly offer us the significant difference in the translations that say every one of you "will go down to" and "go herded down to" Hell; and how they are saying the opposite of your claim that "NONE of which say anything about going into hell"!

And NO, please don't even waste what is left of your already dented scholarship trying to prove that to "pass over" Hell fire is the same as "shall descend into the same [hell]" as (Sale) puts it! Incase you missed that, to "descend into the same Hell" is NOT to "pass over" it!

Oh, by the way, admittedly I didn't spend 20 years of my life devoted to studying the Qur'an. However, you could as well take a look at Dr. M. M. Ghali's summary CV on: (http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Guestcv.asp?hGuestID=tba1UD), where among other things are the following:

"Born in 1920, Professor Ghali is one of the leading international figures in the field of Islamic studies, particularly in Qur’anic studies.

Dr. Ghali has spent 20 years interpreting the meanings of the Glorious Qur’an into English. His English translation (Towards Understanding the Ever-Glorious Qur’an) is a masterpiece in the field."

There, my dear Tiptronic. . . quarrel with that all you wish!

Same problem with you. He gave you explanation backing it up with HADITH. He even gave you different translators and what they meant but you are not satisfied, so if that is the case, lets apply the same test to the bible.

Which creature was crying in the sky in Revelation 8 v 13?

What was the age of saul when he began to reign and how long did he reign.? 1st samuel 13 v 1

Quote from: Tiptronic on July 18, 2007, 11:41 PM
Yeah, thats the problem with copying from AI. Yiu don't know what you're talking about and you can't even provide me with hadith books/numbers. lol

You just don't know what you're talking about, poor you. There is nothing sectarian about which hadiths are true or false.

You lie when you say "the hadiths that most Muslims say are fabricated". You don't know whether this is a fabricated hadith or not because you don't even know which book this hadith came from!!! Was it Bukhari/Muslim/Tirmizi etc?? You just don't know.

So you dont know that some hadiths are fabricated. Oh no poor you. I am beginning to see that it will be a sheer waste of time arguing with you but I still dey kampe.

I don't serve all my amunitions all at once! Since you haven't been able to provide the verse in the Qur'an for what I asked for, no need wasting further scholarship on you. Until you learn to read straight and prove you undertand English, let's just keep this discussion at your level of assimilation, yes?

He did you are just making denials. So please provide explanation to the questions on the bible asked above.

Accusing me of lying is not such a worry. I've explained earlier that most Muslims claim there are fabricated hadiths - and I gave weblinks thereto. If those on the weblinks lied to you, that's no bother to me personally as we know that's what Muslims do anyways. It's just so sad that they would do that to you, and yet you deliberately miss the point I made earlier that it is not my responsibility to be sympathetic to any divide or sectarian parties in the more than 70 sects in Islam. So, if what a particular denomination says does not appeal to you and therefore merits your accusation, it's nothing new - one of your own (babs787) has referred to your Muslim translators of the Qur'an as "deluded authors that lied in order to deceive"!! (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-52589.0.html#msg1102498) and (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-52589.32.html#msg1108087)

Your noise making is not helping matters. the earlier you realize, the better for you. Please muslims provided explanation but you are nt satisfied abi, so please try to answer my questions too and lets see which of your versions is correct.

Quote from: Tiptronic on July 18, 2007, 11:41 PM
Translations are a rough idea of what the Quran means, not the Quran itself. It quite humourous, you relying on translation to get the meaning. Go learn some Arabic (more than ahlan wasahlan) and then make commentary to me about the Quran.

I didn't just rely on translations - much the same as you did but have not been able to show what you claim is in the Qur'an either ways. Translations being 'a rough idea of what the Qur'an means' do not help the widely held concept that once the Qur'an is translated into another language, it immediately ceases to be the word of Allah! Is it not the same translations you've relied on, albeit parry around those that you think help you particular denominational slants?

In addition to that, please what are the passing over. I have been asking this question but you have not answered me.

Quote from: Tiptronic on July 18, 2007, 11:41 PM
You just have no idea.

Its typical for such people to make scholars of themselves.

lol, I prefer the opinion of someone who IS a scholar to that of some apostate, anyday!

No worries. I haven't made a scholar of myself; and if you just did that, thanks for the accolades - I'd rather be the simple learner I've always been hitherto.

Since you prefer the personal opinion (or ijtihad) of someone who IS a scholar to your caling me an apostate, then please take another look at M. M. Ghali's "masterpiece" translation of Sura 19:71 ~ 'And decidedly not one of you (there is), except that he will go (herded) down to it; that, for your Lord, has been a thing decreed, a must.' Not my opinion now, mind you; and you can prefer to go herded down to Hell all you wish!


Quote from: Tiptronic on July 18, 2007, 11:41 PM
I am simply wasting my time explaining this to you. You're all the same, arguing about something you know nothing about, the copy/paste warriors!

I can't waste anymore time here, so i say thank you for havin me and Goodbye.

May Allah guide you to the only and Ultimate Haqq!

Sad to see you leave like that. I'd thought there would indeed have been loads waiting for me from your pen. Obviously, after the bloviation you'd just have to let your incapability enjoy some good rest from what you can't prove from your Qur'an.

May God Himself open your eyes and save you from what you don't understand.

He said a good prayer for someone like that argue without basis and concrete proof but prefer making noise.

Still on the issue, Muslims have provided explanation so please try to explain the difference in versions of the bible to me too.


Thanks

babs787:

Okay I noticed that you are not ready to think . He gave you verses from other translations but you were glued to one.

Please stop lying - it's shameful for you as a man! I quoted SEVERAL translations for him, including:

Muhammad Sarwar
M. M. Ghali
Sale
Hassan Qaribullah & Ahmed Darwish

. . . so why lie that I was glued to ONE? I can put up with any games you have tried in the past - which do not work at all. But LYING is shameful my Babs - don't make it worse as it is already for the reputation of Muslims to LIE, LIE, and LIE!!

babs787:

Please jst like I asked you in other thread, what is the relationship between a bird and an angel. A verse fro one translator said an angel while another said it was an eagle, please which do we accept. When you provide answer, I will then provide explanation on your ignorance.

Like I said, answers to my questions for the ONE VERSE in the Qur'an for the "BRIDGE" over Hell, then I will show you what those verses say. If you can put away your shame, please stop lying and be honest enough to face the topic you're replying to.

babs787:

Do we say KJV is right or other version because they didnt mention same thing?

Like Tiptronic said, tranlsations are only a rough idea of what the Qur'an means - so also I'll show you the difference between the translations on the said verse. As long as we know that you've been trying to scoot away from Sura 19:71, please be focused.

babs787:

Same problem with you. He gave you explanation backing it up with HADITH. He even gave you different translators and what they meant but you are not satisfied, so if that is the case, lets apply the same test to the bible.

He offered deception, rather than "explanation". Ask yourself why he left - he knew where I was going, and he was smart enough to elope before I showed him what he was denying. I was deliberately pushing him slowly to openly DENY the interpretation of Sura 19:71 from the Hadiths themselves, and he was smart enough to have noticed that - and ran for cover to save whatever was left of his scholarship. And I don't have any problems with that - the only thing I request is that Muslims stop telling blatant lies and trying to deceive people with what you call "explanations".

babs787:

Which creature was crying in the sky in Revelation 8 v 13?

What was the age of saul when he began to reign and how long did he reign.? 1st samuel 13 v 1

Answers are avalibale; but mr babs, you cannot deflect the present issue from Sura 19:71. The typical games of Muslims trying to detract from a particular topic doesn't work - and you need a stronger version of your juju to think you can try your games on me. It just won't work.

babs787:

Quote from: Tiptronic on July 18, 2007, 11:41 PM
Yeah, thats the problem with copying from AI. Yiu don't know what you're talking about and you can't even provide me with hadith books/numbers. lol

You just don't know what you're talking about, poor you. There is nothing sectarian about which hadiths are true or false.

You lie when you say "the hadiths that most Muslims say are fabricated". You don't know whether this is a fabricated hadith or not because you don't even know which book this hadith came from!!! Was it Bukhari/Muslim/Tirmizi etc?? You just don't know.

So you don't know that some hadiths are fabricated. Oh no poor you. I am beginning to see that it will be a sheer waste of time arguing with you but I still dey kampe.

I'm so sorry for both of you. You see Muslim confusion? You quoted Tiptronic and then commented to him: "So you don't know that some hadiths are fabricated. Oh no poor you"!! Indeed, arguing with Tiptronic is a waste of time - and you just confirmed it!! Make una dey confuse yourselves there - is this all you can show for your deceptive "explanations"?!?

babs787:

He did you are just making denials. So please provide explanation to the questions on the bible asked above.

After you oblige my simple request: WHERE is that verse from the Qur'an itself for making Allah say something about a "bridge" over Hell fire that he did not mention at all?

babs787:

Your noise making is not helping matters. the earlier you realize, the better for you. Please muslims provided explanation but you are nt satisfied abi, so please try to answer my questions too and lets see which of your versions is correct.

Same tactics. Muslims provided deception - and it did not work. If it was not deception, please show me the verse YOURSELF!

babs787:

In addition to that, please what are the passing over. I have been asking this question but you have not answered me.

Please show me that they were passing over "BRIDGE" - that is all I have been asking you to show me from the Qur'an.

babs787:

He said a good prayer for someone like that argue without basis and concrete proof but prefer making noise.

I also said a good prayer for him for trying to blow smoke in people's eyes with his deception - did you miss that?

babs787:

Still on the issue, Muslims have provided explanation so please try to explain the difference in versions of the bible to me too.

Still on the issue - Muslims provided deception which you have been calling "explanation" - and yet, even YOU mr Babs have not been able to show the "bridge" from the Qur'an! You can't use your own deception to cover up for the other Muslim deceptions.

Cheers.