dmcdad:

I never compared Ronaldo to Messi. I just brought him in as a reference to prove my point that sometimes you can't win it all. Nevertheless, IMO Messi has done more than enough to earn national glory, but then, there comes the clogs in his wheels.

Good. Messi doesn't need to win anything with Argentina to be considered greater than Ronaldo. Messi has destroyed him enough on club level. I'm basically irritated by such arguments.

Honestly, Pelé wouldn't have done it without Garincha. Do you know many folks say Pelé is over-rated in that Garincha was better? More like the duo of Ronaldinho and Eto'o. Garincha was the catalyst behind everything, while Pelé was the goal poacher. At the end of the day, Pelé got all the glory while Garincha went unnoticed by a vast majority.

This is simply not true. I suspect you don't know enough of what you're talking about here so i won't address this.

As for Maradona, IMHO too, I don't think he did more than Messi. Given, on the international stage, yes he did but Messi kills him with club football. Although it can be argued that Messi benefited from having better teammates in club level, yet such can be said of Maradona too on the international stage at the time. Meanwhile, some people misappropriately say Maradona singlehandedly won the world cup in 86. While he did a lot to win that trophy, coupled with his hand-of-god move, it ain't entirely true too.

Maradona Argentines teammates in 86' weren't exactly crap but Messi has had much better to work with in the Argentine team and has achieved nothing currently. Maradona also had a good stint with Napoli though not as successful as Messi on club level but Messi has had far better teammates at Barcelona also.

Now, my point is this... Teammates matter a great deal. Messi had done and is still doing alot to give Argentina something tangible. While it's true that he is not the same player at Barça, it is also true that he doesn't play the same role in Argentina. Role here and not about position. In Barça, he is the reference point. Everything flows with and through him. In Argentina that ain't the case. He is just another team player, hence, the sometimes occasional passive game like an average player. If Higuain and the rest had done the needful at the time, then this never-ending argument would have been more favourable to him.

No but you need to understand the function of ''greatest'' or what it means to be called the GOAT. For instance the Brazilian team in 1970 had so many ridiculous attacking players and should have been an unbalanced side but Pele was the major factor that kept everything ticking and made everything work so flawlessly. He was that good.
Maradona took albeit an average Argentine side and orchestrated almost every single attacking move and pulled the strings that kept the team ticking together until they reached the final and won the competition.
Those are the elite definition of greatness. Di Stefano was an extremely good footballer and had a better club career than Maradona but Maradona is still rated ahead of him and for good reason.

Finally, I understand your stand. And like you rightly pointed out, it gets extremely debatable. But the factor we should take cognizance of is that, while those days country football was the opium and the all-and-all in footie, nowadays it's not so much.

I think people forget the past too easily or many weren't even born then but it's no excuse to underrate great players. IMO Pele is the greatest footballer ever and i don't see that changing anytime soon. You can only beat what's in front of you and Pele was light years ahead of his time/generation. I would go to any length to prove it.

This is always a never-ending debate. A merry-go-round even. Even if Messi wins this Copa, I still think a lot would still downplay his impact or achievement on the international stage. I feel his only saving grace would be a world cup trophy. And that at this time would almost be impossible. So the debate lingers on...

Unfortunately the Copa isn't enough. A World cup trophy would go a great length and help Messi in the Maradona comparisons but with Pele it becomes a stretch too far. Let's leave it at that.

GBR1:

Good. Messi doesn't need to win anything with Argentina to be considered greater than Ronaldo. Messi has destroyed him enough on club level. I'm basically irritated by such arguments.

This is simply not true. I suspect you don't know enough of what you're talking about here so i won't address this.
Maradona Argentines teammates in 86' weren't exactly crap but Messi has had much better to work with in the Argentine team and has achieved nothing currently. Maradona also had a good stint with Napoli though not as successful as Messi on club level but Messi has had far better teammates at Barcelona also.No but you need to understand the function of ''greatest'' or what it means to be called the GOAT. For instance the Brazilian team in 1970 had so many ridiculous attacking players and should have been an unbalanced side but Pele was the major factor that kept everything ticking and made everything work so flawlessly. He was that good.
Maradona took albeit an average Argentine side and orchestrated almost every single attacking move and pulled the strings that kept the team ticking together until they reached the final and won the competition.
Those are the elite definition of greatness. Di Stefano was an extremely good footballer and had a better club career than Maradona but Maradona is still rated ahead of him and for good reason.
I think people forget the past too easily or many weren't even born then but it's no excuse to underrate great players. IMO Pele is the greatest footballer ever and i don't see that changing anytime soon. You can only beat what's in front of you and Pele was light years ahead of his time/generation. I would go to any length to prove it.

Unfortunately the Copa isn't enough. A World cup trophy would go a great length and help Messi in the Maradona comparisons but with Pele it becomes a stretch too far. Let's leave it at that.

Well, like you said, let's leave it at that. But honestly, we have had great players in the distant past. The likes of Pelé, Maradona, Eusebio, Johan Cruyf, Alfredo di Stefano et al were all great players. But in my own books, the only one I stack against Messi, the only obstacle I see is Pelé.

This is not to say the others were whack. Nah, far from it. Just that, Pelé for me did alot regardless of what or how people see it with his closest partner in crime.

But alot of other factors should also be taken into account. The tactical nature of the game today can never be overemphasised. The game has grown to be a tactical ground or rather a battle of tactics. And since I have been watching footie, I had never seen a player that was tactically marked like Messi. If you have seen, maybe you should saddle with me with it, but I have seen tactics deployed specifically against Messi and I have had nothing but pity of how he had coped thus far. Imagine when Pelé played, they played without any defensive setup like today, not to mention the goalies were ridiculously poor. Little wonder you rarely hear of any goalie of old who was great in his time. This is not to play down Pelé's achievement in any way, but to open up the fact that some other factors should also come into play. This exactly is why alot would say there is no need to compare players from different generations.

The media of today is enough to kill a player's career. Media hype and all that pressure has killed lots of players.

Anywayz, not going against your opinion, of course opinions are sparsely given when such matters come to the fore. Just looking at it from various perspective.

Personally, I pity Messi sha. His international teammates had failed him times without number. Let's just see how they respond to tonight's game.

Madrid fans and Messi haters right now.

Waiting to bombard dis thread if Argentina loses tonight.

hinohsend:


Pele and Maradona both won the Copa

no dey didn't

Wish the match could take place earlier,I'd definately sleep off before 1am....and tomorrow is Monday....

hinohsend:
Wish the match could take place earlier,I'd definately sleep off before 1am....and tomorrow is Monday....

Would have loved it to be earlier too because of work, but nonetheless, me go watch am wella. No dulling!

dmcdad:

Well, like you said, let's leave it at that. But honestly, we have had great players in the distant past. The likes of Pelé, Maradona, Eusebio, Johan Cruyf, Alfredo di Stefano et al were all great players. But in my own books, the only one I stack against Messi, the only obstacle I see is Pelé.

It's wholely your personal opinion here, nothing against that.

This is not to say the others were whack. Nah, far from it. Just that, Pelé for me did alot regardless of what or how people see it with his closest partner in crime.

But alot of other factors should also be taken into account. The tactical nature of the game today can never be overemphasised. The game has grown to be a tactical ground or rather a battle of tactics.

True this; a lot of factors and involved and the game has changed a lot.

And since I have been watching footie, I had never seen a player that was tactically marked like Messi. If you have seen, maybe you should saddle with me with it, but I have seen tactics deployed specifically against Messi and I have had nothing but pity of how he had coped thus far. Imagine when Pelé played, they played without any defensive setup like today, not to mention the goalies were ridiculously poor. Little wonder you rarely hear of any goalie of old who was great in his time. This is not to play down Pelé's achievement in any way, but to open up the fact that some other factors should also come into play. This exactly is why alot would say there is no need to compare players from different generations.

This is a whole load of nonsense. You don't need to invent excuses for Messi not being as great as Pele. It's ridiculous even for me as a fan of Messi.
I could give you excuses that players in Pele time had it much more difficult because football rules then were such that the top players were heavily fouled and a lot of tackles used then would be illegal currently. Pele literally got kicked out from a World cup due to this; He was fouled so severely that he became terribly injured and couldn't go on with the tournament. I could give even better excuses and this is a cycle that could go and on, so such stuff are quite redundant in determining greats.
I told you Pele was light years ahead of his time but it seems you're in doubt and that's why you'd say this. The biggest stage is the world cup and Messi has failed to delivered there to be considered GOAT. It's the same reason folks like Di Stefano who both Pele and Maradona refer to as the best, or Platini who had excellent club career and showed amazing consistency, Cruyff who influenced football more than anyone in his time etc are not mentioned in the same breath as Pele, or even Maradona. The CL is too small a stage compared to the world cup. Regardless Pele dominated both club football and internationally.
Most young people think the only reason Pele is considered above Messi is because he has 3 world cup wins which is a lot of bull crap. They simply do not know enough of him. Take your time, do some good research and study.

The media of today is enough to kill a player's career. Media hype and all that pressure has killed lots of players.

Anywayz, not going against your opinion, of course opinions are sparsely given when such matters come to the fore. Just looking at it from various perspective.

Personally, I pity Messi sha. His international teammates had failed him times without number. Let's just see how they respond to tonight's game.

Simply more ridiculous excuses here. It's beyond obvious that you like don't have sufficient knowledge on great players like Pele or Maradona to compare them to Messi. It's normal, it's same for most folks but Messi or modern fans are more likely to express such ignorance though because he's their favorite player and the best they've seen in their time.
I saw this written on a forum by someone old enough and who i sincerely believe is an expert on the subject and i'll leave you with that.

"
It doesn't surprise me one bit that the farther back we go the greater the praise. It's not romanticism, it's first hand experience. Kids today idolise Messi, are open-minded about Maradona, but start getting sceptical with Pelé. My generation idolises Maradona, doesn't think Messi has anything on him, is open minded about Pelé and less comfortable with Di Stefano. Go back further and Diego is the pretender, Pelé the real deal, Di Stefano the realistic contender... and so on. It's normal and entirely a reflection of our own ignorance, nothing to do with the players or how good they really were.."

Baba God, abeg, make Argentina win today.

GBR1
Regardless Pele dominated both club football and internationally.

Is it true he won only one league title after turning 26?

Its time!

bykebyke:

Is it true he won only one league title after turning 26?

False.

Higuain again...

One on keeper...

Chile are a man down now, though i think it's incredibly harsh. Argentina should go on and win this. No excuses whatsoever.

Messi diving

Rojo red-carded...

Now that's not a straight red. This referee isn't very good.

^^^ At least you are being sincere...

Idiotic Ref
Stupid Higuain.

higuain world cup and now this SMH


this guy will be part of Messi biography

GBR1:
Messi diving

That wasn't a dive,lost his footing.

bykebyke:

That wasn't a dive,lost his footing.

There was contact enough...

coded01:
^^^ At least you are being sincere...

That's the recent matches this ref has handled. I don't know how or why he got the finals.

bykebyke:

That wasn't a dive,lost his footing.

Messi knew exactly what he was doing. It was a dive and i don't even like the way he was calling for a card to be awarded against the the Chilean player who had no options in that incident. The referee saw through all that easily and Messi got booked rightfully and i think that was one of the very few decisions this referee has gotten right.

i dey read say Hugauin don dey miss chances again?

Higuaín’s miss is clinical, worthy of the world’s best surgeons. I am convinced he does it on purpose. It’s methodical, almost too precise.

from twitter.

Let Argentina just lose first, the thunder that would strike that Hugauin would be high on a mixture of ibo and dogon yaro

homesteady:
i dey read say Hugauin don dey miss chances again?

One on One with Bravo...The bastard went to chip his life away.

Great to see di Maria and higuain out...

Aguero coming in is great...

Argentina..sighs.

This Argentina final script is getting old o

If you wanna lose the final,lose it in the 90minutes and not during extra time jor,you people think I don't have sleep to sleep?

Aguero FFS

Messi not really passing to his teammates again.


Lost faith in them.