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wetin con happen

@ Frosbel
Why don't you come up with actual Calvinist teachings instead of straw man arguments?
I will answer you then.

5solas:

@ Frosbel
Why don't you come up with actual Calvinist teachings instead of straw man arguments?
I will answer you then.

So do you believe some people are elect for salvation?

MyJoe:

So do you believe some people are elect for salvation?

Yes, it is all over the Bible.

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

For starters.

5solas:

Yes, it is all over the Bible.

One of the fallacies that is repeated in many churches is that when you become a Christian, all sins–past, present, and future–are forgiven, and God no longer acknowledges your present or future sin.

This belief, although prevalent today, does not adhere to either logic or Scripture.

To embrace this doctrine is to assume that God cares so little about His own righteous laws and the people He created, that he gives a blank check–a license to sin– to all who were ever sorry for sin at one time.

The reason this error (that God doesn’t see our sin) is so readily embraced is because people WANT to believe it. Often they want to believe it is because they don’t want to give up their sin. But it simply isn’t true. If you are a sinner clinging to this refuge of lies, please understand that any false refuge will disappoint you in the day of judgment. It is imperative for you to know and obey the truth if you want to be truly free.

Do we really think that the righteous moral Governor of the universe, whose laws are good and right and lead to the happiness of all men, forgives criminals in such a way that they can continue to be criminals against God and men without consequence? Is the God of Love willing to pardon criminals unconditionally, even while they continue their crimes against others? How loving is that toward those being sinned against? Would any earthly government worth its own salt operate this way–freely pardoning criminals who have no intention of stopping their crimes? Would you want a child molester pardoned once for all, even if he continued to molest? How loving or merciful would that be to the children he continued to hurt? Wise love must look out not only for the transgressor’s welfare, but also for the welfare of those who have been hurt by the transgression, and those who will continue to be hurt if the transgressor’s heart is not changed. The criminal must stop committing crimes.

A sinner is a person who breaks God’s laws (I Jn. 3:4). The reason he needs to be forgiven and “saved” is because he has not obeyed the law of God, but has chosen his own way and justly deserves death. The reason there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood is because sin is very serious!! Simply pardoning a criminal does not erase the crime already committed, nor does it always reform the criminal’s heart to curb future offenses. The shedding of innocent blood for the guilty (under both Old Covenant and New Covenant) was meant to bring about a heart change in the criminal–he must hate the crime he committed, recognizing that it brought harm to everything that is good, if he is ever to become a voluntarily law-abiding citizen–and this is God’s goal, to make voluntary law-abiding citizens in His Kingdom! In fact, all “things that offend, and them which do iniquity” will be cast out of His Kingdom into a furnace of fire (Matt. 13:41-42). The Kingdom of God is for those who willingly submit to its King. The blood of Jesus displayed the tremendous mercy of God toward His enemies, and is meant to produce a holy hatred for sin in the repentant soul. It is able to cleanse away not only the sin committed but also guilt in the conscience.

The giving of oneself to sin/lawlessness produces slavery in the soul (Rom. 6:16). A man needs supernatural help to escape from this slavery. And so God sent His Word to heal us, He proclaimed His gospel of salvation to us, and He shed His own blood to change our hearts from rebellious to submissive, to atone for sin, and to erase the guilt of our past crimes so that we are free to serve Him as fully forgiven children.

Past crimes? Not present and future crimes too?

Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the REMISSION OF SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God. (Rom. 3:24-25)

While it is true that the body of Jesus Christ was offered “once for all” (Heb. 10:10), when we come repenting of a life of rebellion against God, we come to the King and ask forgiveness for having been lawless citizens in the past. It should be understood that we must lay down our arms and surrender if we wish to be pardoned! We come as those whose hearts have been moved and changed by the self-sacrifice of this King–though we once proudly resisted Him, now we know He is all-wise, all-loving, all-merciful, and worthy to be obeyed. We come ready to submit to the King’s commands from henceforth because we know that in His commands is life (John 12:50). We come as those sorrowful for our past sins, ready and willing to take His good yoke upon us and learn from Him the way we should walk in–we intend to be lawless citizens no more. Beloved, if we do not come to the King of the Universe this way, we do not receive a real salvation. Sorrow for sin brings repentance unto salvation (2 Cor. 7:10), and this salvation is the salvation from sin’s bondage. It is not merely a get-out-of-jail-free card. No, Jesus did not die so that you could admit you are a sinner, say “thanks” in a trite prayer, and continue to sin without consequence. He died to set you free from sin, to purify for Himself a peculiar people who are zealous to do good (Titus 2:14). He commands you to abide in Him and follow Him continually, so that you can produce good fruit instead of the evil fruit you produced when you followed your flesh!

Listen to the inspired words of Peter:

His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature (holiness!), having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if (IF!) these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Unfruitfulness will lead you to being separated from the Vine and thrown into the fire!–John 15. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be burned!–Matt. 3:10)

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (Purged from old sins, not future sins.)

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if (IF!) ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Pet. 1:3-11)

Clearly, there are conditions to never falling. The doctrine that all sin–past, present, and future–is forgiven in a moment, and God chooses to blind Himself to our behavior for the rest of our lives, is a doctrine that reassures sinners and encourages them to stay on the wide road that leads to destruction. When they experience guilt for their sin, they tell themselves there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, forgetting that the rest of the verse defines “those in Christ Jesus” as being those who are not obeying their flesh, but are obeying the Spirit of God. (Rom. 8:1, KJV) Sometimes they try rebuking the devil for their guilt, instead of confessing and stopping the sin that is causing the problem!

Walking with Christ (salvation) is characterized by freedom from sin and willingly serving righteousness. Though we used to yield our bodies as servants of sin, now we yield our bodies as servants of righteousness unto holiness (Rom. 6:18, 19). He that commits sin is of the devil, and Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil (sin) in our lives, not to merely overlook them. Only he that does what is righteous is considered righteous in the eyes of the Lord, which are in every place, beholding both the evil and the good (I Jn 3:1-9; Prov. 15:3).

Now, it is still possible to sin after being reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore–

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (I John 2:1-6)

The goal is to sin not, but if a man sins, he can be reconciled to God through the advocate Jesus Christ, returning to keeping His commandments once again, and walking as Christ walked. His sin can be cleansed away–

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (I Jn. 1:9)

Jesus, as the Good Shepherd, guides us and corrects us. We have a responsibility to listen to His voice and follow Him (Jn. 10:27), submitting to His correction if we go astray.

My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. (Prov. 3:11-12)

The Lord chastens us “for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness,” without which, no man shall see the Lord (Heb. 12:10,14). But–hear this warning–”he, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.” (Prov. 29:1)

There are more passages of Scripture that teach that our present and future behavior has a direct bearing on our final salvation, and these we will discuss in a future post. God bless you!

http://israeliteindeed./

One of the fallacies that is repeated in many churches is that when you become a Christian, all sins–past, present, and future–are forgiven, and God no longer acknowledges your present or future sin.

So what sins do you imagine are forgiven the sinner on believing? Only their past sins? If so, does Christ have to die each time forgiveness is sought to forgive them their present sins? How about their future sins? And how could He die for any sins before they were committed?

Calvinists do not say God does not aknowledge present or future sins of believers, they say rather that, He does not ''lay anything to their charge'' nor does He impute ''their trespasses unto them''(Rom.8:33 and 2Cor.5:19).

And what does Calvinism have to do with 'many churches'? How well known is it today?

5solas:

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

For starters.

You'd have to get on with the rest, as what you have provided for starters does not lend much support to the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination. Jesus was there merely stressing the point that you can't get to know the Father without learning from him, the Son.

Besides, how do you square off that idea with Jesus's statement at John 3:16 - whosoever believes. . . ?

hello frosbel, before what u further wrote after this line of tot, u have to clarify what 5solas has brought up first.

5solas:

So what sins do you imagine are forgiven the sinner on believing? Only their past sins? If so, does Christ have to die each time forgiveness is sought to forgive them their present sins? How about their future sins? And how could He die for any sins before they were committed?

Calvinists do not say God does not aknowledge present or future sins of believers, they say rather that, He does not ''lay anything to their charge'' nor does He impute ''their trespasses unto them''(Rom.8:33 and 2Cor.5:19).

And what does Calvinism have to do with 'many churches'? How well known is it today?

give a good clarification becos with that it will help us understand why we are only forgiven our past and NEVER present and future sins.
Do you know that the word REMISSION used in this verse
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the REMISSION OF SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God. (Rom. 3:24-25) does not mean forgiveness but TOLERATION? read it in and see for yourself.

Tonye-T should have posted his criticism of Steve Chalke on this thread. Basically what we are talking about is Atonement, ba? Okay, let me go and get a post from the Emerging Thread and bring it here.

Tonye says:

Tonye-t:

. . .accept it or not!. . .every movement has its pioneers - leaders as others might call them. I laugh when I read folks saying this "new wave of christians" do not have men as leaders amongst them, it gets my mind wondering if no one ever talked to anyone about the idea of coming together.

These pioneers may not necessarily have originated this movement, but the fact that they spearhead it will show them as frontrunners or better still light bearers in this "saint movement".

Now this is the onus, to understand the intentions of a movement, simple wisdom will demand that you check the idealogies and teachings of their "pioneers"/"leaders"/"light-bearers". . .now lets go there. . .

1st case study: (*Steve Chalke and Alan Mann, The Lost Message of Jesus, pp. 182-183.)

*Steve Chalke and Alan Mann are both strong leaders of the EC movement.
Written in their book I'll like to quote "If the cross is a personal act of violence perpetrated by God towards humankind but borne by his Son, then it makes a mockery of Jesus’ own teaching to love your enemies and to refuse to repay evil with evil.”

This single quote sparked so much razzmatazz amongst their keen and staunch admirers such that it was ascribed the title of "the new solid scholarship" . .why wont it? afterall the ECs messages always come as sweet and appealing to man's ears. . .little wonder their massive followership.

But the falsehood in these ECs movement is that they'll only give you their "new discoveries" and hide the truth that exposes their "fallacious truth". . .I call it the obama strategy - making a mess of bush's leadership by taking advantages of Bush's mistakes to gain new followers for his hidden cruelty.

Now see, while the celebration was going on amongst the EC faithfuls, some other christians (bereans) were searching the scriptures to verify the genuity of this Steve Chalke's "new solid scholarship" and not too long it was discovered where Paul wrote in 1Cor. 2:2, “For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” and 1cor.1:23 - "For I paul will always preach Jesus crucified".

And when these scholars where approached to clerify themselves and their stance on this Scriptures, Alan Mann wrote in defense "Whoever believes God would kill someone to save others has simply ascribe God a murderer".

Alan Jones also wrote in defense that the substitutionary death of Christ to appease an angry God was a “vile doctrine”! He wrote, “The other thread of just criticism addresses the suggestion implicit in the cross that Jesus’ sacrifice was to appease an angry god. Penal substitution [Christ’s death on the Cross] was the name of this vile doctrine.”

He continued: “The Church’s fixation on the death of Jesus as the universal saving act must end, and the place of the cross must be reimagined in Christian faith .

Men's pride will never allow them admit their mistakes. . .takes us back to my quote of Proverbs.21:2 - "Everyman wants to always believes he is right"

What else can I say of this Emerging church or Emergent church. May God help. . .I'll continue later!

To which I responded with:

Pastor AIO:

I really hope the following does not derail the topic, but I just want to show the theological complications of the issue of atonement. If this issue grows wings and starts to fly, I'll take it to another thread.

Even the whole atonement, and the mechanism of it is something that is much discussed and argued over in theology. http://adrianwarnock.com/2005/10/arguing-about-atonement/

and more . . .
http://www.the-highway.com/articleJuly02.html
The above is John Calvin's view. Going back 2,000 years plenty of ink has flowed on this topic.

It is not helped by the fact that in the bible itself there appears to be contradictions about this business of atonement/forgiveness.

Check out Jesus' own words at the sermon of the mount. Jesus teaches his disciples how to pray:

12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matt 6

Imagine Jesus said that and one of the disciples said, 'o come off it, rabbi, that's just not true'
Surprised Jesus responds,'Why do you say that?'
and he says," Cos you'll die brutally in a couple of years and then my heavenly father will forgive me on account of that and that alone." (sticks out his tongue at Jesus).

This presents a totally different principle of forgiveness from that of the crucifixion. And it is not only in one place. It is a principle that Jesus reiterates over and over again.

35 "But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Highest. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.
36 "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
38 "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."
This passage lends weight to Chalke's argument come to think of it because Chalke argues that, how can a God that demands that we be forgiving insist that he must wreak vengeance on someone for our sins. If we must be merciful just as Our Father is merciful then Jesus is saying that we must get an eye for an eye, and if we don't get the eye of the person that offended us then the eye of somebody else will do.
You see how complicated this issue is. Of course there is Romans chapter 1 and chapter 3 verse 25:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

So the exercise is, how do we reconcile this with what Jesus taught?

35 "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses." Matt 18.

Maybe Jesus' death on the cross atones for past sins, but thereafter if you sin in the present or the future you have to forgive other people before you can get any forgiveness yourself.

@unphilaz[quote]
hello frosbel, before what u further wrote after this
line of tot, u have to clarify what 5solas has brought
up first. [/Quote]
Thanks. The clarification is for starters.

MyJoe:


For starters.

You'd have to get on with the rest, as what you have provided for starters does not lend much support to the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination. Jesus was there merely stressing the point that you can't get to know the Father without learning from him, the Son.

Besides, how do you square off that idea with Jesus's statement at John 3:16 - whosoever believes. . . ?

Mere cavillation. I will give you thirty more verses.

FIRST AND SECOND VERSE
[Quote]
JOHN 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
[/Quote]
Please tell us what Jesus was merely saying above.

Pastor AIO:

Maybe Jesus' death on the cross atones for past sins, but thereafter if you sin in the present or the future you have to forgive other people before you can get any forgiveness yourself.

Thanks for your contribution and linking of the thread with yours on atonement.

@MyJoe
I permit you to count a group of verses as a single verse.
VERSE 4 (In the proof of election)
Ephesians 1
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

@5solas

So what sins do you imagine are forgiven the sinner on believing? Only their past sins? If so, does Christ have to die each time forgiveness is sought to forgive them their present sins? How about their future sins? And how could He die for any sins before they were committed?

2 Peter 1 -, " 8. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.


"God overlooked people's ignorance about these things in earlier times, but now he commands everyone everywhere to repent of their sins and turn to him." - Acts 17:30

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." - Romans 6:15


God forgives us  our past sins when we come to Jesus.


If we sin again ( God forbid ) then we need to REPENT of our sins as ask Jesus to forgive us. But  if we continue in sin , we will DIE and be cut off.


Ezeikel 18 : 24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die."

Calvinists do not say God does not aknowledge present or future sins of believers, they say rather that, He does not ''lay anything to their charge'' nor does He impute ''their trespasses unto them''(Rom.8:33 and 2Cor.5:19).

Yes at the time of rebirth.


First of, telling people that their past , future and present sins are forgiven is actually giving them a license to SIN. This is a LIE from hell and many have perished because they thought while they induldged in pornography, perversions, drunkness etc that they were forgiven without repentance.

This is turning the grace of God into a license for immorality.

"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." - Jude 1 :4

Most profesing christians reject the true gospel. Christ only atoned for his chosen ppl, the true seed and the true children of God. If you are a sinner, perpetual sinner, going to church every sunday, doing good works etc, its not by good works. God already knows who will be saved, who will be saved for a while and then walk away, who will not be saved etc. God even ordained that most of mankind will burn in hell for all eternity:

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up to God forever and ever".

Only those Christ wills to save will be saved. I repeat, only those Christ wills to be saved will be saved and only those he endues with power to endure to the end will enter heaven. Rest of humanity, pls back your sleeping bags and utensils and get ready for everlasting punishment.