Mr. Moderator, if only you could make this my post be on the front page so we all can learn,

Now, to the point,

I applied to a leading investment bank in Switzerland for a graduate position, After two days, I received an email, the usual rejection email. I then went ahead and responded, by email, to the sender of the rejection email. Within 5 minutes, I received a call from the person in question, She told me that my application was rejected because of my nationality. She said jobs would only be given to EU nationals, but not to nationals of other countries, I was impressed with the level of professionalism she displayed and thanked her for even calling to let me know why my application was rejected, She said it had nothing to do with my qualifications,


My question now is: do you guys in the West face the same wahala? Have you ever been told that you were rejected because of your nationality?

Let the discussion begin, abeg,

My broda, this is very common even for people in the west, it takes a great deal of luck to get such jobs especially in EU. I applied for a similar job as yours sometime last year, i actually dropped a hard copy resume with one of their representatives and i must say i forgot about it entirely until last month, i saw a very big envelope in my mail box with the company logo, my mind went straight to the application, i was like, could it be true. I didn't waste time in tearing the envelope apart and alas, what i saw was an official letter and a copy of my resume from the company signed by the MD saying that they acknowledge the receipt of "my impressive resume" but that they were sorry they couldn't offer me the job but of course i knew the reason so i didn't bother pressing forward but i just wondered why they had to waste their time and resources even disturbing their MD to sign the letter, an email or call from their HR could have done it as most of them have always done. It's a common thing but do not give up!

You should have known before putting an application through that EU jobs are for EU citizens. The lady has done well by going the extra mile to call you using the companies limited resources. In the UK, they don't usually tell you that you were denied the job cos of your nationality. They just send you an email that is not monitored that the application was unsuccessful. You only stand a good chance if it's an Oil and Gas career.

The lady actually told you that your application was rejected because of your nationality?  Aren't there equal opportunity laws in those places?

That was exactly what she said, By the way, congrats on your great job!

My thoughts:
It's not really discrimination. Though we as the 'black man' find it easier to think so.
With the exception of technical jobs, science and engineering etc, where your brain is the only requirement, most front office jobs would be hard to give to Africans.
Only second generation Asian immigrants are now beginning to break into the mainstream of front office jobs in Europe. Most African immigrants in Europe are still 1st generation. Your kids will stand a much better chance than you did today, if they have the right educational background, speak the right way, and have the right confidence and attitude. It's just a matter of time.

But investment banking job requires brain,

tanimola22:

But investment banking job requires brain,

Not only brain.
The customer-facing side is probably more important than the quants crunching numbers in the background. You know, perception is the key driver in banking.

A few outstanding Africans would probably break through, but I doubt we would be in as much high demand as, say, Indians, would be. With time, if our quality improves and we begin to have more 2nd generation Nigerian immigrants emerging, we might be catching up to the Indians soon.

AjanleKoko:

Not only brain.
The customer-facing side is probably more important than the quants crunching numbers in the background. You know, perception is the key driver in banking.

A few outstanding Africans would probably break through, but I doubt we would be in as much high demand as, say, Indians, would be. With time, if our quality improves and we begin to have more 2nd generation Nigerian immigrants emerging, we might be catching up to the Indians soon.

Those beautiful faces at the customer facing side would not find jobs if the quants did not crunch numbers to produce results, But I concur that perception is key any day, any job and anytime. I, myself, am really trying to improve the perception that companies have of me. Many thanks for reminding me.

Yes, I really do hope that we too will be in demand soon.

@Ajanlekoko: you've captured it all.

i-banking is basically is customer facing role. While you'd be expected to be grounded on the technicals, what would count
really would be your social skills- poise, leadership skills, relationship management, and invariably, your accent.
As an african, who grew up in africa, to break in you'd need to go to the right schools and network like a ninja.
For those in Europe, a second language would be helpful too.

For jobs in i-banking, the thing is those guys recruiting you have to be extremely comfortable with you because they'd end up
spending more time with you at work, than with their family.

Laajman:

@Ajanlekoko: you've captured it all.

i-banking is basically is customer facing role. While you'd be expected to be grounded on the technicals, what would count
really would be your social skills- poise, leadership skills, relationship management, and invariably, your accent.
As an african, who grew up in africa, to break in you'd need to go to the right schools and network like a ninja.
For those in Europe, a second language would be helpful too.

For jobs in i-banking, the thing is those guys recruiting you have to be extremely comfortable with you because they'd end up
spending more time with you at work, than with their family.

Thanks for your contribution. I had long vowed not to ever talk like somebody that is not me. My Nigerian accent, not Yoruba or Igbo or whatever accent O, is smooth to the ears, both oyinbo ears and non oyinbo. The oyinbos respect me for that. But beyond this, I personally opine that the West is on the verge of collapsing, There are simply very few opportunities for their own people, not to talk of for Africans. The UK is particularly piteous, ,

I have no problems with your other points. They doubly drive home the idea of presenting oneself in a refined manner,

Safe,

They key is confidence, nothing more!

I have a friend who got a trading role at GS.  He moved in from China not quite long ago and his English/accent is far from being in shape. . .his interviewer told him in his first 15 minute that he'd rather leave GS than not see him hired!. . .and no, he didn't attend a red brick!

No one gives a rat's arse on how posh your accent is. . . as long as you can hold on to your guns and you can pass on the feeling that you're the smartest person in your class!

The problem with some africans is that they tend to believe that they are being constantly discriminated against, while this might be true in some cases, it's not in several other cases.  Expecting to be discriminated against or thinking about it constantly will do severe damage to anybody's self esteem, and no matter how hard you try, you'd always pass across a message of being incompetent!

Your guy was lucky O,

violent:

They key is confidence, nothing more!

I have a friend who got a trading role at GS.  He moved in from China not quite long ago and his English/accent is far from being in shape. . .his interviewer told him in his first 15 minute that he'd rather leave GS than not see him hired!. . .and no, he didn't attend a red brick!

No one gives a rat's arse on how posh your accent is. . . as long as you can hold on to your guns and you can pass on the feeling that you're the smartest person in your class!

The problem with some africans is that they tend to believe that they are being constantly discriminated against, while this might be true in some cases, it's not in several other cases.  Expecting to be discriminated against or thinking about it constantly will do severe damage to anybody's self esteem, and no matter how hard you try, you'd always pass across a message of being incompetent!

Very true.
Lack of confidence is a key minus for most Africans. Dunno if it is the culture, just the general atmosphere. But we are usually short on confidence.

Unfortunately, you guys are not wrong- And the few of us that are, we are seen as a threat. I smell this all the time. I see this all the time, even in class. I don't know why. Could there be a reason for this? Many oyinbos (not all sha) no want us to believe in ourselves O. Some even get appalled when you believe and have immense confidence in what you are saying or doing. Doleful!

tanimola22:

Unfortunately, you guys are not wrong- And the few of us that are, we are seen as a threat. I smell this all the time. I see this all the time, even in class. I don't know why. Could there be a reason for this? Many oyinbos (not all sha) no want us to believe in ourselves O. Some even get appalled when you believe and have immense confidence in what you are saying or doing. Doleful!

That's called racism.
I find it amusing when a white person tells me 'you know, you're very smart.'. Just like they are surprised to find a black man that even knows what he's about. Centuries of negative stereotypes are responsible for that. So when they see a black man, they think James Brown or Richard Pryor, an entertainer.

With time and consistency, as well as our being able to build capacity back home and network effectively abroad, we will get to where the Asians are today.

AjanleKoko:

That's called racism.
I find it amusing when a white person tells me 'you know, you're very smart.'. Just like they are surprised to find a black man that even knows what he's about. Centuries of negative stereotypes are responsible for that. So when they see a black man, they think James Brown or Richard Pryor, an entertainer.

With time and consistency, as well as our being able to build capacity back home and network effectively abroad, we will get to where the Asians are today.

not going to change anytime soon. the only successful and famous homegrown nigerian youth seem to be entertainers.

oyb:

not going to change anytime soon. the only successful and famous homegrown nigerian youth seem to be entertainers.

i agree

oyb:

not going to change anytime soon. the only successful and famous homegrown nigerian youth seem to be entertainers.

I wasn't talking about homegrown youth.
I'm talking about second-generation Nigerian-Europeans who were born in Europe, or their parents migrated when they were very young.
These ones will assimilate better, and will speak European languages, as well as have a European education.

i'm telling you its not about what you know its who you know that's why they hold those networking events (which i'd advise you to attend),

IB is a very competitive industry even me that was born in the UK and holds a 1st class honors in Economics from a UK uni (not a red brick but a decent uni) is struggling to get an internship,

I wanted to ask can I still apply to other EU countries even if I don't speak their language?? that would be fun to work in Switzerland

Anyways sha good luck to all I pray we all get to where we wanna be.

mimi234:

i'm telling you its not about what you know its who you know that's why they hold those networking events (which i'd advise you to attend),

IB is a very competitive industry even me that was born in the UK and holds a 1st class honors in Economics from a UK uni (not a red brick but a decent uni) is struggling to get an internship,

I wanted to ask can I still apply to other EU countries even if I don't speak their language?? that would be fun to work in Switzerland

Anyways sha good luck to all I pray we all get to where we wanna be.

Hi,

Yes, you can! English is one of the languages spoken in Switzerland. You should also try The Royal Bank of Scotland and Goldman Sachs. Nomura and Lazards are also great to try. Who knows what can happen? Your application could be successful, you know.

UBS are currently not happy because of the rogue trader that recently caused them a 2-billion dollar loss. Try there sha.

tanimola22:

Hi,

Yes, you can! English is one of the languages spoken in Switzerland. You should also try The Royal Bank of Scotland and Goldman Sachs. Nomura and Lazards are also great to try. Who knows what can happen? Your application could be successful, you know.

UBS are currently not happy because of the rogue trader that recently caused them a 2-billion dollar loss. Try there sha.

Hey Tanimola, Yeah i'm in the process of applying to them but their recruitment process is sooo long and winded lol. I wanted to ask a quick question not too sure if you'll know the answer anyways do you know if investment banks in Nigeria do internships like they do over here, I recently been contacted by one firm via email (don't worry it isn't a scam the email was from employeename@nameoffirm.com << something like that) and they wanted to discuss times and things but i just want an internship (for a few months) because I intend to do my masters next year, do they do that? i don't wanna sound silly when they call back lol

mimi234:


Hey Tanimola, Yeah i'm in the process of applying to them but their recruitment process is sooo long and winded lol. I wanted to ask a quick question not too sure if you'll know the answer anyways do you know if investment banks in Nigeria do internships like they do over here, I recently been contacted by one firm via email (don't worry it isn't a scam the email was from employeename@nameoffirm.com << something like that) and they wanted to discuss times and things but i just want an internship (for a few months) because I intend to do my masters next year, do they do that? i don't wanna sound silly when they call back lol

You will get used to them, don't worry. But the sad truth is that, the fact that you spent many hours filling out the online application forms does not guarantee that you would be called for a test or for an interview for that matter. Once you are okay with this, then you are good to go. I advise that you fill out as many online application forms as possible. In the long run, one of them will work.

Yes, certain sell side investment houses, and even some buy side ones, give opportunities to people for at least a 3-month internship. Just tell them that you are still a student and are only interested in an internship for some months. I am sure they would be happy to take you, considering your very nice degree class from a good university and your interest in ibanking. The only challenge I sense is that they might be reluctant to pay for your travel expenses because you are only going to spend a few months with them anyway. If you can show them that you can well take care of that part, then I believe all will be fine.

By the way, did the said company just 'cold called' you or did you fill out the company's online application? If you did fill out the company's online application form, did you apply for a normal job or for an internship? I am asking because, depending on the form that you filled, it is possible for the company to assume that you are applying for a graduate role when in fact you are only hoping to be considered for an internship. I know that RenCap and some other ibanks in Nigeria have different online application forms for graduates, experienced people and interns. Which one did you fill?

P.

tanimola22:

You will get used to them, don't worry. But the sad truth is that, the fact that you spent many hours filling out the online application forms does not guarantee that you would be called for a test or for an interview for that matter. Once you are okay with this, then you are good to go. I advise that you fill out as many online application forms as possible. In the long run, one of them will work.

Yes, certain sell side investment houses, and even some buy side ones, give opportunities to people for at least a 3-month internship. Just tell them that you are still a student and are only interested in an internship for some months. I am sure they would be happy to take you, considering your very nice degree class from a good university and your interest in ibanking. The only challenge I sense is that they might be reluctant to pay for your travel expenses because you are only going to spend a few months with them anyway. If you can show them that you can well take care of that part, then I believe all will be fine.

By the way, did the said company just 'cold called' you or did you fill out the company's online application? If you did fill out the company's online application form, did you apply for a normal job or for an internship? I am asking because, depending on the form that you filled, it is possible for the company to assume that you are applying for a graduate role when in fact you are only hoping to be considered for an internship.  I know that RenCap and some other ibanks in Nigeria have different online application forms for graduates, experienced people and interns. Which one did you fill?

P.

Aww thanks for the fast response, I actually went on their website and clicked on the careers section but on their careers section it had a recruitment email and it said we should send our CV to them, so i sent an email with the subject title: Internship opportunities lol but wasn't sure if they hold short-term internships, anyways hopefully they'll call back today and I'll speak with them. Do you think this will look good on my CV because this firm in question is not an international firm, however having just got rejected by Deutsche bank after the online numerical test which i know i aced because they kept my application "under-review" for the past four weeks after taking the test just for them to reject me , things are looking gloomly for me and I need work experience before I embark on my masters, its a must because i currently have no work experience except my part-time job as a admin assistant which is sooo boring

mimi234:


Aww thanks for the fast response, I actually went on their website and clicked on the careers section but on their careers section it had a recruitment email and it said we should send our CV to them, so i sent an email with the subject title: Internship opportunities lol but wasn't sure if they hold short-term internships, anyways hopefully they'll call back today and I'll speak with them. Do you think this will look good on my CV because this firm in question is not an international firm, however having just got rejected by Deutsche bank after the online numerical test which i know i aced because they kept my application "under-review" for the past four weeks after taking the test just for them to reject me , things are looking gloomly for me and I need work experience before I embark on my masters, its a must because i currently have no work experience except my part-time job as a admin assistant which is sooo boring

I told you, you must get used to rejections and the likes from companies. Do your best on their tests, but don't expect that your application must be proceeded to the next stage. That is why you need to apply to as many places as possible. I myself have been rejected by a cornucopia of companies, but the rejections will never stop me from applying to a myriad of other companies. And the unpalatable part of everything is that I am not a novice in the investment banking world. I was a buy side junior analyst in Nigeria before I left for my master's abroad.

If the company you are talking about is Vetiva, which I guess it might be because an email is put on their website and people are asked to submit resumes through it, then go for it. In case you did not know, a relevant work experience is much, much better than an irrelevant work experience or nothing at all.

Have you applied to RBS, HSBC, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, GoldMan? I read in a forum that Deutsche Bank employees are racist. I am not sure if this is true.

Itankan?

tanimola22:

I told you, you must get used to rejections and the likes from companies. Do your best on their tests, but don't expect that your application must be proceeded to the next stage. That is why you need to apply to as many places as possible. I myself have been rejected by a cornucopia of companies, but the rejections will never stop me from applying to a myriad of other companies. And the unpalatable part of everything is that I am not a novice in the investment banking world. I was a buy side junior analyst in Nigeria before I left for my master's abroad.

If the company you are talking about is Vetiva, which I guess it might be because an email is put on their website and people are asked to submit resumes through it, then go for it. In case you did not know, a relevant work experience is much, much better than an irrelevant work experience or nothing at all.

Have you applied to RBS, HSBC, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, GoldMan? I read in a forum that Deutsche Bank employees are racist. I am not sure if this is true.

Itankan?

You have such a beautiful spirit, i need some of that. Yeah i need to develop your strategy of applying to everywhere its just frustrating you know, one app takes forever especially if they have long competency questions. But yes i'll keep going.

Nope it isn't Vetiva lol, you know the firm tho, yeah its better to get relevant experience. Now my mum is saying i can't go shes not comfortable with me going 9ja staying with relatives (having being born and bred over here), arghhh life is just frustrating one problem after another, just pray God leads the way for all of us.

I've been rejected by UBS (<< but that was expected given the crisis they are in), DB, Citi and Credit suisse, so far i've done apps for Morgan stanley, JPM and Fidelity, PwC just waiting on their outcomes. Good luck with your apps too,

Once again thanks for the fast response. x

mimi234:


You have such a beautiful spirit, i need some of that. Yeah i need to develop your strategy of applying to everywhere its just frustrating you know, one app takes forever especially if they have long competency questions. But yes i'll keep going.

Nope it isn't Vetiva lol, you know the firm tho, yeah its better to get relevant experience. Now my mum is saying i can't go shes not comfortable with me going 9ja staying with relatives (having being born and bred over here), arghhh life is just frustrating one problem after another, just pray God leads the way for all of us.

I've been rejected by UBS (<< but that was expected given the crisis they are in), DB, Citi and Credit suisse, so far i've done apps for Morgan stanley, JPM and Fidelity, PwC just waiting on their outcomes. Good luck with your apps too,

Once again thanks for the fast response. x

Yeah. But you should expect UBS to suspect everyone of us now. You know they generalize hastily. Kweku has 'spoil' ground for the boys.

There are two categories of Nigerians abroad

Those who feel inferior and as a result, display inept incompetency in all that they do- Nigerians who believe that they are living the 'dream' by  'stacking shelves' or doing all sorts of 'menial jobs' with their 'foreign qualifications' rather than return home, fall in this category. Also, those who tend to see the 'oyinbo' man as a one with an 'upper echelon' also belong here.

The other category is the fake 'wannabes'-those who by virtue of been abroad try to 'mimic' the way things are done there. I have never spoken with an American accent-it is foreign to me yet I work with Americans and I have had the opportunity to consummate good deals in the front office and my unique Nigerian accent with 'occasional pidgin' makes me stand out amongst my peers! My point is, if the British, French, Russian, Chinese and American can speak with their accent why can't I speak with mine?


Also, I banking is not a place that I would recommend for any graduate now, the pending Eurozone crisis and high unemployment levels in America attests to this. Secondly, there is some much 'public disdain' towards the financial sector especially in Europe. However, all hope is not lost, but still, applying for and hoping to be recruited for a front office role is a 'bad strategic move' if your plan is to still work in i banking. Why not try a back office or middle office role for starters and work your way up?

Additionally, most banks or FIs need people that understand the investment climate in emerging countries in Africa, hence there is a huge gap in this area, but alot of us don't realize this. For example, a friend just got a 'mouth watering' offer from Rothschilds' for a project finance role and will work out of their country office in SA and London office consecutively. The trick here is to understand the employment terrain and carve a niche for yourself.

I work for a bulge bracket PE in NY and in their FIG group with core focus on Africa and Middle East and quite frankly this is where is the action is right now. You will be amazed at the volume of transactions and deals that Nigerians in Lagos and Abuja and other cities consummate abroad.

Just my own random contribution to the thread.

.

deenee:

There are two categories of Nigerians abroad

Those who feel inferior and as a result, display inept incompetency in all that they do- Nigerians who believe that they are living the 'dream' by  'stacking shelves' or doing all sorts of 'menial jobs' with their 'foreign qualifications' rather than return home, fall in this category. Also, those who tend to see the 'oyinbo' man as a one with an 'upper echelon' also belong here.

The other category is the fake 'wannabes'-those who by virtue of been abroad try to 'mimic' the way things are done there. I have never spoken with an American accent-it is foreign to me yet I work with Americans and I have had the opportunity to consummate good deals in the front office and my unique Nigerian accent with 'occasional pidgin' makes me stand out amongst my peers! My point is, if the British, French, Russian, Chinese and American can speak with their accent why can't I speak with mine?


Also, I banking is not a place that I would recommend for any graduate now, the pending Eurozone crisis and high unemployment levels in America attests to this. Secondly, there is some much 'public disdain' towards the financial sector especially in Europe. However, all hope is not lost, but still, applying for and hoping to be recruited for a front office role is a 'bad strategic move' if your plan is to still work in i banking. Why not try a back office or middle office role for starters and work your way up?

Additionally, most banks or FIs need people that understand the investment climate in emerging countries in Africa, hence there is a huge gap in this area, but alot of us don't realize this. For example, a friend just got a 'mouth watering' offer from Rothschilds' for a project finance role and will work out of their country office in SA and London office consecutively. The trick here is to understand the employment terrain and carve a niche for yourself.

I work for a bulge bracket PE in NY and in their FIG group with core focus on Africa and Middle East and quite frankly this is where is the action is right now. You will be amazed at the volume of transactions and deals that Nigerians in Lagos and Abuja and other cities consummate abroad.

Just my own random contribution to the thread.

@Deenee

Thanks for this insightful contribution. But do your American colleagues understand Pidgin?

You see, there is a problem with the highlighted part of your post. I believe that, it is when an ibank invites one for an interview that one will be able to show how knowledgeable one is in issues concerning the emerging markets. If there is no such invite, then how will one give the appropriate signal? This is the main challenge. You know, all these ibanks treat every application according to some laid down rules; you apply, you get called for several tests, you ace all the tests, you attend assessment centres, you interview with the head of the group you want to join, you get the offer. Once there is a hitch somewhere, you are out! Irrespective of whether you have what they really need.

I second the strategy of understanding the employment terrain and carving a niche for oneself.

tanimola22:

@Deenee

Thanks for this insightful contribution. But do your American colleagues understand Pidgin?

You see, there is a problem with the highlighted part of your post. I believe that, it is when an ibank invites one for an interview that one will be able to show how knowledgeable one is in issues concerning the emerging markets. If there is no such invite, then how will one give the appropriate signal? This is the main challenge. You know, all these ibanks treat every application according to some laid down rules; you apply, you get called for several tests, you ace all the tests, you attend assessment centres, you interview with the head of the group you want to join, you get the offer. Once there is a hitch somewhere, you are out! Irrespective of whether you have what they really need.

I second the strategy of understanding the employment terrain and carving a niche for oneself.

Well, I guess they do, but hey of course, I don't use pigdin as an 'official language of business'. I just use some of the popular slangs like 'wetin dey' , 'how far', 'pepper don red 'et al. when chilling with some of my work mates (i.e having a drink or on a night out). More so, quite a handful get  the meaning behind some of these 'slangs' especially 'pepper don red' which has become a common thing to say on the 21st of each month! Anyway, the point, that I am trying to make is that you need to be yourself


Apart, from i banking, there are other finance related roles on offer in London. A good place to start your scan is efinancial careers-they post alot of job openings in finance and within different specialism. The down side of this is that you have to deal with recruiters and those lot are the most 'sleazy' set of people I have come across. I recall giving you some head start on GS internship in London. Any feedback?