According to Joagbaje, when it comes to obedience to the teachings of Jesus, "There are no laws and commandments for the church to be obeying.


Hmmm but when it comes to money and his casino (or kalokalo) gospel:

Joagbaje:
It's a law of sowing and reaping, . . . . 

Why are you against giving to the man of God , when it's clearly in the bible ? Are we wiser than God. If God lay the principle . We do the word without questioning him. We shouldnt be looking for other way around it.  If the bible says so, that settles it for me.

When we give to MOG we are the ones been blessed , not him.

"Law" of sowing and reaping? Hmmm! The Bible says so and settles it? Hmmm, but not when Jesus and the apostles said there is a new commandment --- no no no the Bible does not settle that one!

Also, when it comes to "sowing and reaping" then Jesus' teaching applies for the "Gods"; it doesn't then matter that "New testament began after Jesus death" or that "Jesus didn't function in the New Testament"

Joagbaje:

There is not supposed to be an issue for debate. We sow money we sow time, service ,smile,love,  We live by our seed. But you see God is particular about our attitude to the giving of money. The God of mammon and covetousness will not allow people to give money so they fight it. It is easier to give shoe than give its money equivalent. Sowing and reaping is a law. seed time and harvest. The first thing God gives is a seed ,when we sow ,we then have harvest to live on. . . .

Joagbaje:

sowing and reaping is an eternal law. Jesus taught you can give your jacket, coat ,help,service .etc.but I dont know when it comes to the giving of money, some people will pick up fight or when it come to giving to God in churches. Giving of money will continually be a major part of our seed because money is medium of exchange.

Eccles. 10:19
    ,  money answereth all things.

If there is anybody that illustrate attitude to money the most it was Jesus. why did he not tell the rich man to giv his goods out? Rather He told the rich man to sell the goods in exchange for money first. tthen give out the money. It is harder to sow cash but Jesus want us to conquer mammon. Annanias sold land but found it difficult to remmitt it. There is a perfection you attain by sowing money. So dont rule out money in the law of sowing and reaping it plays a major role.

"Eternal law indeed" ----- but not Jesus Royal Commandment, oh no no no, that one is not even a law not to talk of eternal law.

"Thievery" is a terrible thing. 

Sowing and reaping is also a "spiritual law" {but of course Jesus' royal commandment is not a spiritual law)!

From here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=385781.msg5380915#msg5380915

Sowing and reaping is a spiritual law.Either you give to the poor or to God Or to a pastor.

It is a law at any rate

Joagbaje:


. . .  . A real pastor doesn't live by salary. His salary is a seed in his hand. He give by example. People bless him in return . Its a law of sowing and reaping. When you start giving and you see the result , you won't criticise wealth again. . . .

Oh by the way, when it comes to this sowing and reaping thing even Jesus was "dealing with a law"!

Joagbaje:

I dont see a reason for this statement of yours. Who's talking about obsession with money.my point is that Jesus was dealing with a law . A principle of sowing and reaping. Either its in cash or kind . It's talking about giving something physical. . . . .

The kingdom of God is based upon principles. And these principles are based on revelations. We pray, not by a command, we give, we worship.not by a command.
It's children that are looking for  rules and regulations. As you yield yourself to Gods spirit and Gods word. His will is worked out through you. Not by struggle. It's natural . It's your nature. I pray because I love God and I fellowship with him . Same thing goes for my study , giving, helping others etc, it is not by a command . It is a life within.

Philippians 2:13
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Our giving triggers the blessing of God upon our lives
Whether to the pastor, music director or the children church teacher.
Your giving determines your blessing and how far you will go
It works, even for unbelievers, it's a ( let me borrow your words) principle, a law

Joagbaje:

Ok I get your point. This is an issue of semantics.  Different uses of a word. Consider the context of the post. I'm talking in terms of old testament obedience to commandment. God deals with us through a love relationship . We love the brethren . Nit as a command . It's a revelation.

I thought as much: that it is about semantics, not substance!

But Paul functioned in the New Testament and you said he obeyed. Your reference to obedience in Post #66 was to us - christians. So, you can see why I think you're adding to the lack of clarity.

In the other posts, you asked what the commadnments are. Simple, based on the ones you believe:

1. Thou shall pay your tithes (otherwise, no grace for propsperity).

2. Thou shall give genrously to the church and pastors (otherwise, you'll be poor).

3. Thou shall confess the word constantly (othersie, you'll have no force-filed of protection, making you vulnerable to Job-like attack of the devil).

4. Thou shall direct your life with your tongue (as James said).

5. Thou shall not forsake the assembly of one another.

6. Thou shall submit to a pastor (otherwise, you are a spiritual vagabond).

7. Thou shall exercise your faith (otherwise you and your innocent children may stay or die sick).

Enigma:

nlMediator, what do you think?

I have answered him. I also think his position on the words of Jesus is based on the erroneous, illogical and legally inaccurate belief that the New Testament was written only after the death of Jesus. The Bible says no such thing. And the law - that is the law today, not Bible law - that they claim supports such belief says no such thing about wills and testament. While appearing to be legal experts, or sophisticated thinkers, those espousing such views show themselves of little training.

Finally, is it not sad that people rush to Genesis to support tithing but reject the teachings in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John (and Acts). No wonder, Christianity today does not reflect much of Jesus or His teachings.

These are spiritual  principles and not commandment. Commandment were not based on revelation or relationship.  They may be a form of instructions to babies. They may look like law to some others. That's Why people should not be fed with baby food. Law was not given to reveal righteousness is was given to reveal mans inability and failings.

nlMediator:

I have answered him. I also think his position on the words of Jesus is based on the erroneous, illogical and legally inaccurate belief that the New Testament was written only after the death of Jesus. The Bible says no such thing.

Jesus was in between The old and the new. He demonstrated the power of the old and introduced some new things. But he primarily functioned under the old testament to a great extent . The new testament was cut at his death. His death was the beginning of the new. So the writings of the gospels were not Revelations if the new testament. If you want to know what the new contain. Study acts and the epistles.

]

Joagbaje:

The kingdom of God is based upon principles. And these principles are based on revelations. We pray, not by a command, we give, we worship.not by a command.
It's children that are looking for  rules and regulations. As you yield yourself to Gods spirit and Gods word. His will is worked out through you. Not by struggle. It's natural . It's your nature. I pray because I love God and I fellowship with him . Same thing goes for my study , giving, helping others etc, it is not by a command . It is a life within.

Philippians 2:13
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If you truly believe the above, especially the bolded, you'll not spend one second mentioning tithes, first fruits in church. Just teach members yieldedness to the Holy Spirit, and voila, they'll discover first fruits. I can assure you that nobody probably knew anything about first fruits in your church, until it was taught from the pulpit. Meaning that even after these many years, you don't have yielded people in the church. Oh, not only does the church believe in tithes, offering and first fruits, but they keep a record of these. For instance, nobody can aspire to leadership in these churches without being a consistent tither, giver of first fruits, etc. Yieldedness is defined by obedience to the pastor's beliefs.

Joagbaje:

These are spiritual principles and not commandment. Commandment were not based on revelation or relationship. They may be a form of instructions to babies. They may look like law to some others. That's Why people should not be fed with baby food. Law was not given to reveal righteousness is was given to reveal mans inability and failings.

And on what do you anchor these baseless assertions? I'm sorry, you seem to be confusing commandments with THE Law. Anything you're required to do to get a result (reward) or avoid punishment is a commandment. And all the things I mentioned are ones you agree are required.

mabell:

Our giving triggers the blessing of God upon our lives
Whether to the pastor, music director or the children church teacher.
[b]Your giving determines your blessing and how far you will go[/b]It works, even for unbelievers, it's a ( let me borrow your words) principle, a law

You know the bolded is plain rubbish, right? And cannot be supported by the Bible, the lives of christians and the lives of non-christians?

Joagbaje:

Jesus was in between The old and the new. He demonstrated the power of the old and introduced some new things. But he primarily functioned under the old testament to a great extent . The new testament was cut at his death. His death was the beginning of the new. So the writings of the gospels were not Revelations if the new testament. If you want to know what the new contain. Study acts and the epistles.

]

You know there's no scriptural support for this assertion, right?

Nobody doubts that some things Jesus said were not for christians. Even champions of the 4 Gospels here make clear that when Jesus spoke about tithes in Matt. 23:23, He was not addressing christians. So, I don't think there's any controversy about that. The issue is how many of Jesus' words are you willing to dismiss simply because they were not recorded in the Epistles? Those that disfavor you or do not fit into your devised and revised theology?

mabell:

Our giving triggers the blessing of God upon our lives
Whether to the pastor, music director or the children church teacher.
Your giving determines your blessing and how far you will go
It works, even for unbelievers, it's a ( let me borrow your words) principle, a law

Mrs Mabell, I'm sorry but maybe that is what your Pastor told you,

But if it is my "Giving" that triggers God's blessing on me and not God's love for me, then it is fair to say that  that Pastor is Fraudulent.

A pastor is a Person too, and if in need you give to him then it is fair,

But if you give him, especally if he does not need it or there are people you know in worse situations, for the purpose of receiving blessing (even if you stole the money) , then both you and that pastor are deceiving yourselves.

aLSO, the "pastor" that utters that rubbish has got an Agenda. ( Fraudulent agenda)

nlMediator:

If you truly believe the above, especially the bolded, you'll not spend one second mentioning tithes, first fruits in church. Just teach members yieldedness to the Holy Spirit,

You have been fair so far . Unlike those who manipulate the posts of others here. But I'm only concerned why you dwelt on the yieldedness to the holy spirit only and took away the "yieldedness to the word" because that would have answered our concern. The holy spirit works with the word of God . And the word reveals Gods will and principles. So tithing, first fruits ,prayer,worship are based on  principles. not commandments.

. I can assure you that nobody probably knew anything about first fruits in your church, until it was taught from the pulpit. Meaning that even after these many years, you don't have yielded people in the church.

First fruit is a universal principle. Even unsaved people recognise and practises it. Everyone knows there is something sacred or special about "the first "  why are firstborn given special place. First salary etc. Many take it to their parents. Because even nature teach them that there's something special about the first. In villages ,no one would eat new yam until village priest eats the first fruit. But it's a pervasion . The first is a honour to God. Abel was the first person recorded to do it.

Oh, not only does the church believe in tithes, offering and first fruits, but they keep a record of these. For instance, nobody can aspire to leadership in these churches without being a consistent tither, giver of first fruits, etc. Yieldedness is defined by obedience to the pastor's beliefs.

maybe that's how it's done in your church . And you can't use it as yardstick  for others. There can be pastors that Don't tithe or leaders that don't tithe. It is by personal revelation. But a wise person should tithe.

^^^

Interesting to know there's a church that beleives in tithing but lets people be leaders who don't tithe. Would like to know the names, in case I need them in the future.

Sorry, didn't catch the yieldeness to the WORD part. But I'm not sure how it changes much of what I'm saying. Point is that people are taught the Word, including things they're required to do. They're not left on their own to discover these things. If they're required, they're commandments. If they're not required, there's really no point spending time teaching them, when people can discover them on their own? Like firstfruits.

Which is my point about firstfruits. It may well be a universal principle. But I never heard anybody discover it until they heard some pastors preach on it. Where was their yieldedness to the Holy Spirit and the Word up till that point?

@P.JOE

you keep saying principles? are they different from the law?

Joagbaje:

New testament began after Jesus death dude. Is that What did they teach u in your church? Oh sorry I forgot you are one of the sheep without a shepherd how sad.

^
What a deluded fool you are! I pity the people that call you "pastor"; you follower of Balaam. So because Jesus uttered those words before his death they are of no effect in your theology? How silly is your reasoning: What is the New Testament? Aren't the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts and Revelation which contain the direct words of Jesus part of the New Testament? So according to your message, these words are meaningless:

(Matt 24:35 [KJV])
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

(Matt 7:24 [KJV])
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


Again I repeat: you are a fool and doubly so because you call yourself a pastor and yet have the temerity to claim: "Nowhere in the New Testament are we told to obey God"

Tell me: Do these words occur in the OT?
(Acts 5:29 [KJV])
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I am really saddened by this man's (Joe) utterances. How can a so called pastor say this things about Jesus? Infact, I am ashamed to be of the same country with this guy seriously. Joe, you are not a pastor. You are not a believer. You are just a fake that is using the Bible to enriching yourself hence you are quick to quote the Bible out of context.

Please my dear friend, Repent now and turn to the almighty GOD before it is too late. Leave this your love of money alone. It will not save you.

Joagbaje:

You have been fair so far . Unlike those who manipulate the posts of others here. But I'm only concerned why you dwelt on the yieldedness to the holy spirit only and took away the "yieldedness to the word" because that would have answered our concern. The holy spirit works with the word of God . And the word reveals Gods will and principles. So tithing, first fruits ,prayer,worship are based on  principles. not commandments.

PLS can i ask what the [b]word [/b]is?

Joagbaje ought to have learnt his game(s) are up.

It does start to seem God is using the pride in Jo to make their gospel show for the travesty of truth and decency it is. Even his latest attempts to water down the rubbish his master wrote is only worsening his case

One should not be surprised that many still frown at some new creation truths. I do not blame them. I was once as ignorant. Jesus said that it is easier for the camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. It made many of us think that it is thus impossible for the rich to be saved. Until a study of the word liberated us when we found out from what Jesus said, a camel can actually pass through the eye of a needle because the needle he referred was not the one for sewing but a gate. Many today still refer to the tailor's tool and so fail to understand. This is why many actually perish (lack of knowledge) and forsake their unconditional blessings. That I give you a brand new Home Theatre is not a guarantee that you will use it well and enjoy it. You have to read the operation manual and follow its directions. When you do this, you are not obeying to get the system, it is yours already. It came unconditionally. Your following or obeying the manual is to enable you enjoy it, and not to receive what come free. If salvation is not free, who can pay for it?

livin:

PLS can i ask what the word [/b]is?

Very good question - because they are actually saying that they themselves are "the word"; see here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-708981.0.html

So, their yieldedness to "the word" is actually yieldedness to [b]themselves; but that is no surprise, as their god is their belly so we shouldn't wonder that that is what they are yielded to!

gn4dwnow:

One should not be surprised that many still frown at some new creation truths. I do not blame them. I was once as ignorant. Jesus said that it is easier for the camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. It made many of us think that it is thus impossible for the rich to be saved. Until a study of the word liberated us when we found out from what Jesus said, a camel can actually pass through the eye of a needle because the needle he referred was not the one for sewing but a gate. Many today still refer to the tailor's tool and so fail to understand. This is why many actually perish (lack of knowledge) and forsake their unconditional blessings. That I give you a brand new Home Theatre is not a guarantee that you will use it well and enjoy it. You have to read the operation manual and follow its directions. When you do this, you are not obeying to get the system, it is yours already. It came unconditionally. Your following or obeying the manual is to enable you enjoy it, and not to receive what come free. If salvation is not free, who can pay for it?

First, the understanding that the eye of the needle refers to a gate has been there for decades, if not centuries. That you only came across it not long ago does not mean that everybody else was as ignorant, so much so that they came by this "new" truth, you're better than the rest. Second, you contradict yourself or should I say, confuse matters, when you talk of "obeying the manual." Several people here not disputing the reason or result of the obedience - to enjoy the gadget, being part of it. The controversy is whether that action of following the manual is obedience. So, to help the rest of us, do you believe that christians obey the scriptures or are required to obey the scriptures?

aletheia:

^
What a deluded fool you are!

Do you feel better now? Clap for yourself

LoveKing:

@P.JOE
you keep saying principles? are they different from the law?

Yes they are. The law abolished but things that are based on principles pre existed the law and also outlive the law.

livin:

PLS can i ask what the [b]word [/b]is?

The word of God is any thing that is consistent with Gods plan and purpose for us in christ Jesus .

gn4dwnow:

This is why many actually perish (lack of knowledge) and forsake their unconditional blessings. That I give you a brand new Home Theatre is not a guarantee that you will use it well and enjoy it. You have to read the operation manual and follow its directions. When you do this, you are not obeying to get the system, it is yours already.

Pls tell them . I like your use of the word . OPERATING MANUAL. I should have added it to my definitions of The Word.

nlMediator:

First, the understanding that the eye of the needle refers to a gate has been there for decades, if not centuries. That you only came across it not long ago does not mean that everybody else was as ignorant, so much so that they came by this "new" truth, you're better than the rest. Second, you contradict yourself or should I say, confuse matters, when you talk of "obeying the manual." Several people here not disputing the reason or result of the obedience - to enjoy the gadget, being part of it. The controversy is whether that action of following the manual is obedience. So, to help the rest of us, do you believe that christians obey the scriptures or are required to obey the scriptures?

Let us not play on semantics. The issue is the contrast between obeying the law for a blessing and unconditional blessing. You don't need to understand the law to do it. Even though many of them are still based on spiritual principles.

When you offer turtle dove, and sprinkle heifer, you don't need to understand it . It is a command to obey. And if you don't do it punishment follows. But when we do the word of God , it is based on revelation of faith. Every christian love to live right. Because the nature of God is in him. The flesh tries to get in the way. And that's why the fellowship with the Word and Gods spirit is important. We do the word because we love God.

That is why I'm so amazed at those who claim Christianity here , yet they can be so abusive . They lack the simple revelation of Gods love.

When you walk outside love, you walk in darkness . It's based on principle.

1 John 3:14-15
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Joagbaje:

The word of God is any thing that is consistent with Gods plan and purpose for us in christ Jesus .

The word you mean is it different from the bible or that described in Jn1:1 (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.)

Joagbaje:

Let us not play on semantics. The issue is the contrast between obeying the law for a blessing and unconditional blessing. You don't need to understand the law to do it. Even though many of them are still based on spiritual principles.

When you offer turtle dove, and sprinkle heifer, you don't need to understand it . It is a command to obey. And if you don't do it punishment follows. But when we do the word of God , it is based on revelation of faith. Every christian love to live right. Because the nature of God is in him. The flesh tries to get in the way. And that's why the fellowship with the Word and Gods spirit is important. We do the word because we love God.

That is why I'm so amazed at those who claim Christianity here , yet they can be so abusive . They lack the simple revelation of Gods love.

When you walk outside love, you walk in darkness . It's based on principle.

1 John 3:14-15
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Your answers on this issue remind of what I read during the recent royal wedding: that Kate Midddleton's vows would not contain the word 'obey'. Well, it's for any adult to tell whether, compared to thse who promised to obey their husbands, she's obeying her husband or not. And any adult would tell you there's no difference.

You give the impression that what distinguishes principle from law is understanding. But that's a baseless assertion. People can follow a principle without understanding as much as they can follow a law without it. You also seem to suggest that principle is different from law because of punishment or reward. Again, failure to keep the law attracts punishment; so does failure to follow a principle. Observing one confers benefits or blessings; same with the other.

So, unless you really want to amuse yourself, I really don't see the point of this long argument. Which is what I said earlier. The differences are mainly cosmetic.

No there is difference . God has blessed us already through the obedience of christ . Nothing we do can make God change his mind.