It is fairly common to hear people talk abt the great work of salvation. By this, they mean, 2000 or so years ago, a certain young man in Palestine was sent by God to die and save the world from sin. And we should believe in him or else we are doomed.
Sounds light, isn't it? But let's analyse this concept, even a child will sense some inconsistency here. First, is the sacrifice of blood necessary for salvation? Not just blood, but the blood of the son of God. Is God bloodthirsty that he wouldn't mind taking the blood of his son? What kind of a father would send his son to die for others in order for him to forgive theirs sins? Murder is a sin, how can one justify the murder of man that it is necessary for forgiveness?
These are just naive questions but it clearly shows a fundamental flaw. God, who abhors sin, cannot use the instrument of sin as tool of purification. The murder of Jesus was a sin. That aside, how can a man pay the price of a sin he or the others he intends to save haven't commited? How can it be asserted that he paid for my sins even when i am not borned nor even sinned? If God is just, wouldn't he let every man pay for his sins, as justice demands? Why must he send his son to be killed?
I don't mean to attack anyone's religion. But, a serious examining of these and similar questions will show you that the christain faith is built on fantasies and lies or at best, imaginations.
GOD ALONE IS THE TRUTH.ental flaw. God, who abhors sin, cannot use the instrument of sin as tool of purification. The murder of Jesus was a sin. That aside, how can a man pay the price of a sin he or the others he intends to save haven't commited? How can it be asserted that he paid for my sins even when i am not borned nor even sinned? If God is just, wouldn't he let every man pay for his sins, as justice demands? Why must he send his son to be killed?
I don't mean to attack anyone's religion. But, a serious examining of these and similar questions will show you that the christain faith is built on fantasies and lies or at best, imaginations.
GOD ALONE IS THE TRUTH.

elrony:

foolish fool

Typical defeatist behaviour. Instead of considering the issues presented, you try to attack the person. Learn to be civilised, bro.

you obviously don't understand and from the way you sound anybody trying to put you through would be wasting his time, except the holy spirit intervenes.

Talkyaown:

you obviously don't understand and from the way you sound anybody trying to put you through would be wasting his time, except the holy spirit intervenes.

Another defeatist attitude.
I don't like being verbose, i presented my case as simply and rational as I could that even the dumbest child can understand. I ask you, today. Do you honestly believe those theories because you KNOW them to be true? Or because you were TAUGHT they are true?
As for the Holy Spirit, let's leave for another thread.


GOD ALONE, and not religion, IS TRUE.

Okay

@agi-tuedor

Look at it this way. Man by disobeying God was destined for death.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death. .

That's number one. The second thing is that man also lost the dominion God gave him . He lost it to Satan. Man needs to get back his dominion from Satan . The just God won't interfere . The whole of human race is doomed by this. But there is no man qualified to deliver man. man was too weak to deliver himself.

Gods Word became a man100% . It is only by death that he can get to the region of the dead so as to defeat satan and take back what man lost. He was mans representative. He had to die to get there because it is a spiritual place. He had to die also to fulfil the punishment for man. The reason why he was the best person to do it was because he had the ability to cone back alive. He wasn't forced . He did it willingly.

John 10:17-18
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


The purpose of his death was realised. Man has been delivered from destruction and doom. Also there is restoration of the authority that man lost to Satan. Man can walk in dominion over Satan now.

Jesus wasn't a martyr. He lay down his life . So who is complaining?

So if he could come

^^^^^^^^^^^^ so if man didn't 'disobey' he would not have died?


imagine the trillions of people that will be alive today? when do you figure that man will over populate the earth, joe?

imagine no death and the earth remains the same; starvation and famine will not be able to kill anyone. so the hungry will be dry bones but will be alive. yes?

or there would not have any children of Adam and Eve, leaving the two legends all by themselves on this earth?

you gotta make a choice. if there was no sin and death according to the bible, Adam and Eve will have no reason for children and so they will be the two humans on earth forever or their children in generations would have over populated the earth by now that many will not have more than the space they are standing on. make a choice, maan.

@Joagbaje
christianity not a lie.

agi-tuedor:

Another defeatist attitude.
I don't like being verbose, i presented my case as simply and rational as I could that even the dumbest child can understand. I ask you, today. Do you honestly believe those theories because you KNOW them to be true? Or because you were TAUGHT they are true?
As for the Holy Spirit, let's leave for another thread.


GOD ALONE, and not religion, IS TRUE.

Let me make my earlier post clearer, If you don't speak my language you can't understand it! And for ur question, I believe Prayer works, i am a living witness. James 5:15, The Prayer of Faith shall save the sick, read to verse 20

Hmmm.

@Joagbaje
Unfortunately, this doesn't answer any of my questions but reveals a larger aspect of the issue in convuluted logic which is highly fantastical.
Perhaps some more questions may better elucidate my points. You talk of disobeying God, is it in a generic sense or does it imply that a particular individual disobeyed. If I understand the christian doctrine well, this individual is Adam. Now, why must a young man like me who wasn't party to the sin suffer the consequences? If death was necessary for salvation, then it would suffice for Jesus to die a few minutes after birth and descend to hell to kick satan and save man. Why must he murdered like a criminal? If, as christians say, that man's sin brought death into the world. I ask, what about the death of animals and all life forms (of which, man is a part of)? Did man's sin caused that too? Don't you think that death is a necessary pole to life, and was even intended for by the Creator? If Jesus's sacrifice redeemed man from sin and death, why do men still sin and die today?
In fact, christian faith has reduced the creator to a brutal and sadist being who delights in bloodshed in other to assert his supreme authority. What this implies is, either God doesn't exist or the christian idea is totally false about Him. Contraries to both ideas are mutually exclusive. Thanks.@Joagbaje
Unfortunately, this doesn't answer any of my questions but reveals a larger aspect of the issue in convuluted logic which is highly fantastical.
Perhaps some more questions may better elucidate my points. You talk of disobeying God, is it in a generic sense or does it imply that a particular individual disobeyed. If I understand the christian doctrine well, this individual is Adam. Now, why must a young man like me who wasn't party to the sin suffer the consequences? If death was necessary for salvation, then it would suffice for Jesus to die a few minutes after birth and descend to hell to kick satan and save man. Why must he murdered like a criminal? If, as christians say, that man's sin brought death into the world. I ask, what about the death of animals and all life forms (of which, man is a part of)? Did man's sin caused that too? Don't you think that death is a necessary pole to life, and was even intended for by the Creator? If Jesus's sacrifice redeemed man from sin and death, why do men still sin and die today?
In fact, christian faith has reduced the creator to a brutal and sadist being who delights in bloodshed in other to assert his supreme authority. What this implies is, either God doesn't exist or the christian idea is totally false about Him. Contraries to both ideas are mutually exclusive. Thanks.

CHRISTIANITY IS A LIE

All Abrahamic faiths are lies.

^^^ Thank you.

The Trinity of Abrahamic Faiths:

The Father: Judaism

The Son: Christianity

The Holy-Spirit: Islam

Talkyaown:

Let me make my earlier post clearer, If you don't speak my language you can't understand it! And for your question, I believe Prayer works, i am a living witness. James 5:15, The Prayer of Faith shall save the sick, read to verse 20

Don't dodge facts with such cheap words. I don't need to read a book to know when I am being lied to. The bible is a book designed to perpetrate such lies. The only force I appeal to is the force of reason and not some cheap, highly edited ancient text. Use common sense, the Truth is not far from us just that we are too stupid to see it. Thanks.

agi-tuedor:

is the sacrifice of blood necessary for salvation?

^
Yes

agi-tuedor:

Not just blood, but the blood of the son of God.

^
Yes. Most assuredly so.

agi-tuedor:

Is God bloodthirsty that he wouldn't mind taking the blood of his son?

^
Emotive words deliberately chosen by you to achieve your aim of ridiculing the gospel of Jesus of Nazareth?

agi-tuedor:

What kind of a father would send his son to die for others in order for him to forgive theirs sins?

^
You 've already been told before now: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

agi-tuedor:

Murder is a sin, how can one justify the murder of man that it is necessary for forgiveness?

^
Who is justifying murder? Where in the gospel is murder justified?

agi-tuedor:

These are just naive questions  but it clearly shows a fundamental flaw. God, who abhors sin, cannot use the instrument of sin as tool of purification. The murder of Jesus was a sin.

Of course the murder of Jesus was a sin. . .which is why: Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. (Luke 23:34 [KJV])

agi-tuedor:

If God is just, wouldn't he let every man pay for his sins, as justice demands? Why must he send his son to be killed?

^
Let me ask you a question. I hope you will lay aside your prejudices and give it serious thought. I 'd like you to answer this question: How do you balance the requirements of Perfect Justice versus Perfect Love.

The scriptures are clear that God is Holy. You yourself have said God abhors sin. True. God is Love. So how do you balance the requirements of Perfect Justice (which must mete out punishment) & Perfect Love (which seeks to forgive).

agi-tuedor:

Don't dodge facts with such cheap words. I don't need to read a book to know when I am being lied to. The bible is a book designed to perpetrate such lies. The only force I appeal to is the force of reason and not some cheap, highly edited ancient text. Use common sense, the Truth is not far from us just that we are too silly to see it. Thanks.

Make sure u come back to this site and tell us how u got saved, how u love Jesus so much, how u can't live without reading the Bible when u get saved. i'll present ur case to the church elders, the Lord will make an Example of u that prayer indeed works!!!!!!

@aletheia
Very good. Perfect love and justice are indeed one and the same thing. The Love of God is inherent in His Justice. Justice demands that a man reaps what he sows and Love seeks to teach a man to sow the right seeds. But Love doesn't cancel Justice but complements it. God may have sent prophets to teach mankind the path of Truth but it doesn't mean that the natural order (Justice) will be uplifted for this sake. Love affords man the opportunity to know Truth and Justice guides him faithfully on that path. Indeed, Love and Justice different sides of the same coin. See it as Love when Justice is meted out to a man for him to recognise the wrongfulness of his actions.
What I am saying in essence is that the Love of God lie in the opportunity given to man to learn from the wise master Jesus, the knowledge of which, if followed, can lead to salvation. The death of Jesus is atrocious and a highly sinful act. Salvation lies in his teachings and not in his death (this is the greatest lie of christianity). Thanks. Justice different sides of the same coin. See it as Love when Justice is meted out to a man for him to recognise the wrongfulness of his actions.
What I am saying in essence is that the Love of God lie in the opportunity given to man to learn from the wise master Jesus, the knowledge of which, if followed, can lead to salvation. The death of Jesus is atrocious and a highly sinful act. Salvation lies in his teachings and not in his death (this is the greatest lie of christianity). Thanks.

^^^^^^^^^^^ agi-tuedor lost me when he failed to include Moses among those people lessons are to be learnt from their actions. these people are prophets of God. he lost me far more when he didn't include any of the 'sinless' persons ever recorded by his bibles; Job with all the calamities, sinless before, during and after the calamities [or can anyone name his sin?], father and son combo; Zacharias and John; people with patience and forbearance.

yet he centered his argument on Jesus who by today's evil world standard, one will see something wrong in killing the tree if he truly did [still finds the action very odd for a prophet of God, when part of his qualities is ability to bite his tongue, patience, persevere or ability to do without, etc], or the act that drowned the pig [the same pigs christians can get enough of, and this group lay claim to follow the same man even making him their God? strange.].

he completely lost me when he said Jesus died. how? who reported it as a witness among his followers? a prophet of God that God allowed to ask Him a thing in prayer was never denied. the biblical Jesus prayed to God to protect his life. though he solved into 'Your Will oh God, not my will, Jesus who You sent'. the fact that he was allowed to make that prayer so loudly that his followers knew what he prayed for, it is enough to say God intended to grant him what he asked, to show that he was a true elect, because Moses prayed and yet God wanted him dead, God didn't kill him by installing his wife to uncover her hair, a physical sign of the reason [not that i believe the story because it will be illogical for God to want kill His Messenger before he delivered the message, and mere woman's hair will not stop God from accomplishing His Intention. the hair and the hair owner who just have been killed along if it was intended. but God allowed Moses to complete him mission without any of it unfinished before he was terminated]. why would God killed or allow Jesus who clearly begged to be killed? the same Jesus everyone of the christians say is the most beloved, how do you allow your most beloved be put through what he does not want, by those who are the low lives while you have ability to protect and prevent? yet this is what you said God allowed.

is there any sense allowing your most cherished to be violated? most spouses will fight the illegal sex partner of their mates. yet what you have suggested about God regarding the so called death of Jesus for mankind or not, but his death anyways is worse than a spouse who allows his mate to be violated by scums while she was asking him to save or help from this horror. he actually can. he has all the means. but he was the one who left the door opened so that the animals can come in. he pointed to them where his wife was sleeping. and he saw everything. is there any justice here, or mercy or fairness?

@sweetnecta,
I don't really get you but I guess we are on the same page.

@op

as simple as your write up many people will fail to reason, every one should follow their own path,dont force yours on mine. for me all religion should be wiped out.

whoever does not know, and does not know that he does not know does not know, teach him

Spiritual things and Godly wisdom is percieved as foolishness unto men, while The highest level of man's Wisdom IS complete foolishness before GOD!
Op perhaps u pride yrself of being very intelligent and believe no one else has ever reasoned this way. U R so wrong!
Until a man becomes a child in his thinking b4 God, he cant be taught by the spirit. Mind u many of us on this site have attained d highest levels of worldly knowledge & reasoning b4 we realised & submitted to the greater Truth -Jesus!

@ swiftycool
Are u suggesting that I should stup.idly accept all things I am told, as regard to spiritual matters? Doesn't such as behaviour portray foolishness? Foolishness is a sin, I hope you know. Can I ask you something? Why was man designed with a thinking brain? Why is there an innate urge in man to investigate things? Doesn't a little common sense apply in religious doctrines? If not, why do we abhor the activities of religious fundamentalists (Boko Haram, for exampe)? After all, they just believed what they were told (which is synonymous to foolishness, if you like, "foolishness of God". Reflect on this.

swiftycool:

Spiritual things and Godly wisdom is percieved as foolishness unto men, while The highest level of man's Wisdom IS complete foolishness before GOD!
Op perhaps u pride yrself of being very intelligent and believe no one else has ever reasoned this way. U R so wrong!
Until a man becomes a child in his thinking b4 God, he cant be taught by the spirit. Mind u many of us on this site have attained d highest levels of worldly knowledge & reasoning b4 we realised & submitted to the greater Truth -Jesus!

Keep on deluding yourself. Mouthing dogma doesn't score you points. Have you ever wondered why God who gave us the capacity to think and ask questions would require us to discard all those when communicating with us and obey without question?

See i won't argue wit u.bt al i want God 2 do 4 u is 2 desend d holy spirit upon u,then ur brain and ur eyes wil open wide and u wil knw truly dat God(creator and possessor of d universe) exist.God bless u.

Spiritual things and Godly wisdom is percieved as foolishness unto men, while The highest level of man's Wisdom IS complete foolishness before GOD!
Op perhaps u pride yrself of being very intelligent and believe no one else has ever reasoned this way. U R so wrong!
Until a man becomes a child in his thinking b4 God, he cant be taught by the spirit. Mind u many of us on this site have attained d highest levels of worldly knowledge & reasoning b4 we realised & submitted to the greater Truth -Jesus!

If God is also adjudged  to be a father, then there's a son(s) we,

A son (we) does not understand, it will be foolishness on his part not  to pose or ask his father
questions to enable him seek clarification over issues he do not understand


The poster is asking practical, reasonable & wise questions even if silly which i think not, tell me,  why would God
as a father or if we claim him as a father adjudged him  foolish?

Did Jesus condemned Thomas for requesting for physical evidence that he was alive? the onus was on Christ to present him with
overwhelming evidence which he did. was he adjudged foolish?, He was damn right practical,

I would rather be a doubting Thomas, until otherwise,

Sweetnecta:

^^^^^^^^^^^ agi-tuedor lost me when he failed to include Moses among those people lessons are to be learnt from their actions. these people are prophets of God. he lost me far more when he didn't include any of the 'sinless' persons ever recorded by his bibles; Job with all the calamities, sinless before, during and after the calamities [or can anyone name his sin?], father and son combo; Zacharias and John; people with patience and forbearance.

he completely lost me when he said Jesus died. how? who reported it as a witness

At last! This man has admitted that he is lost.

It is fairly common to hear people talk abt the great work of salvation. By this, they mean, 2000 or so years ago, a certain young man in Palestine was sent by God to die and save the world from sin. And we should believe in him or else we are doomed.
Sounds light, isn't it? But let's analyse this concept, even a child will sense some inconsistency here. First, is the sacrifice of blood necessary for salvation? Not just blood, but the blood of the son of God. Is God bloodthirsty that he wouldn't mind taking the blood of his son? What kind of a father would send his son to die for others in order for him to forgive theirs sins? Murder is a sin, how can one justify the murder of man that it is necessary for forgiveness?
These are just naive questions but it clearly shows a fundamental flaw. God, who abhors sin, cannot use the instrument of sin as tool of purification. The murder of Jesus was a sin. That aside, how can a man pay the price of a sin he or the others he intends to save haven't commited? How can it be asserted that he paid for my sins even when i am not borned nor even sinned? If God is just, wouldn't he let every man pay for his sins, as justice demands? Why must he send his son to be killed?
I don't mean to attack anyone's religion. But, a serious examining of these and similar questions will show you that the christain faith is built on fantasies and lies or at best, imaginations.
GOD ALONE IS THE TRUTH.ental flaw. God, who abhors sin, cannot use the instrument of sin as tool of purification. The murder of Jesus was a sin. That aside, how can a man pay the price of a sin he or the others he intends to save haven't commited? How can it be asserted that he paid for my sins even when i am not borned nor even sinned? If God is just, wouldn't he let every man pay for his sins, as justice demands? Why must he send his son to be killed?
I don't mean to attack anyone's religion. But, a serious examining of these and similar questions will show you that the christain faith is built on fantasies and lies or at best, imaginations.
GOD ALONE IS THE TRUTH.

It is an interesting point that if Jesus must die because God demands Justice, then the legitimate question can be asked that 'is it in fact Just for one person to suffer for another person's crime?'

Misbee:

See i won't argue wit u.bt al i want God 2 do 4 u is 2 desend d holy spirit upon u,then your brain and your eyes wil open wide and u wil knw truly dat God(creator and possessor of d universe) exist.God bless u.

We are not talking about God's existence. We are pointing out the illogical doctrines of the Christian faith. Of course, God exists and He doesn't represent a shadow of the Christian teaching. God is independent of religions. Thanks

@Pastoraio; « #28 on: Today at 05:29:37 PM »
[Quote]Quote from: Sweetnecta on Yesterday at 12:15:42 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^ agi-tuedor lost me when he failed to include Moses among those people lessons are to be learnt from their actions. these people are prophets of God. he lost me far more when he didn't include any of the 'sinless' persons ever recorded by his bibles; Job with all the calamities, sinless before, during and after the calamities [or can anyone name his sin?], father and son combo; Zacharias and John; people with patience and forbearance.

he completely lost me when he said Jesus died. how? who reported it as a witness

At last! This man has admitted that he is lost.[/Quote]and you are happy to the nth degree by your lie. i pity your soul. may Allah straighten it from where it is in the crooked zone.

is there no difference between you lost me [an expression to indicate a statement does not make any logical sense] and he is lost [a statement to indicate he followed the wrong way]?

those white boys in the grammar school dorms of your youth must have 'wounded' you so badly. o ga fun e, iwo aborisha lasan lasan yi. you can't even hide your hatred and speak the truth.

Alhamdulillah that i am lost to you. lost away from your evil ifa and all the orisha tio nbo. the muslims are calling you away from the path of spiritual destruction. you are stubbornly clinging to a stink. come clean. man.