Third definition from wikipedia seems like a reasonable one to me:

The set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group

ekt_bear:

Third definition from wikipedia seems like a reasonable one to me:

The set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group

There is nothing wrong with wiki its a good poiter in the right direction, anyway I would define culture as: [size=15pt]a set of rules and procedures for solving problems and meeting needs[/size].

You don't have a culture for the sake of having it – its primary aim is to solve problems.  I will also add that there is a strong correlation between Language and Culture.  When a culture no longer solves problems to meet the needs of the participants it must be transformed.  The transformation will be based on solving those needs.  If people abandon there culture they will die, why because they are no longer meeting their needs or solving the problems that confront them. Can you now see why we have bad leadership in Nigeria and Africa as a whole?

Let us take a look at the Asian nations that have progressed since 1960, with a particular focus on the Asian Tigers of  Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan. These four nations maintained high growth rates of over 7% a year between 1960 to 1990. During this time, they used their high GDP growth to industrialize their nation. We cannot forget that the Asian Tigers focused on their own respective competitive advantage. Singapore became a trading depot, South Korea focused on electronics and cars which allowed them to compete with Japan, Hong Kong is an international banking center and Taiwan has a diversified economy. However, I believe the main reason these nations were able to grow so rapidly and industrialize is, because they had a common origin and goals. Are these nations as diverse as the African states that make up our continent? The answer is no.

we nigerians also contributed our own quota to the failure of the country, there are lots of manfacturing companies in china, these companies are owned by chinese citizen and not the government, they invested in thier own country and it is these investments that is increasing the development in china.

Do we nigerians invest in our country? there are so many nigerians and even here on nairaland that are far richer than these chinese manufacturing companies owners, do they invest in nigeria?, instead they take thier family abroad and also invest abroad hence improving the economy of another country.

Malaysia have good roads, malls, condominium, even manufacture cars and so on, these things are not done by the government, but by companies and individuals, We all wait for Government to establish companies and do everything for us. You all will wait and grow old

I'm glad this discussion is still going on with minimal diversion, @Nolongthing, thank you for pushing the point very few of us made earlier on in the thread. I saw the replies you gave to Kay, Playmode and others, you saved me a lot of trouble bro. Its not easy to get away from my okada business.

Let's keep one thing in mind, the people commenting on this thread probably care a lot about fundamental issues, they want changes and they desire progress for their people. We might have different ideas about how to solve these problems, but we mostly want them solved.

I've noticed 3 major views on this thread now.

1. Those who believe that we need a cultural and ideological revolution/change.

2. Those who believe there is something inherently wrong with the African.

3 Those who believe we just need to get better at embracing what works elsewhere.

I sympathize with 3 but I'm firmly and unashamedly in support of 1. Like I mentioned on page one and two. Until we find an ideological anchor that can bind us all together, something rooted in our own philosophy and worldview, we may never stop lagging behind. Same for the rest of Africa.

It is not easy to build a Nation and nurture an ideology, we've never tried building one, we've tried copying, but never invented or innovated a national philosophy, the Americans did, the British did, the Chinese did, Russinas did, french did, even with the close cultural affinity these people share, you can still see the unique differences in political ideology and culture. It starts and end with philosophy, ideology and culture.

When Gandhi a Western trained lawyer was wearing "sari" and practicing the virtues of Hinduism while using the same ideas to push for independence and anchor his people's mind on those principles, some folks called him crazy, although his country still have a long way to go, but today, they've made tremendous progress and they will definitely make more.  

I asked a question on page one, I will ask again: What is the Nigerian ideology? What is the Nigerian culture?

okada_man:

I'm glad this discussion is still going on with minimal diversion, @Nolongthing, thank you for pushing the point very few of us made earlier on in the thread. I saw the replies you gave to Kay, Playmode and others, you saved me a lot of trouble bro. Its not easy to get away from my okada business.

Let's keep one thing in mind, the people commenting on this thread probably care a lot about fundamental issues, they want changes and they desire progress for their people. We might have different ideas about how to solve these problems, but we mostly want them solved.

I've noticed 3 major views on this thread now.

1. Those who believe that we need a cultural and ideological revolution/change.

2. Those who believe there is something inherently wrong with the African.

3 Those who believe we just need to get better at embracing what works elsewhere.

I sympathize with 3 but I'm firmly and unashamedly in support of 1. Like I mentioned on page one and two. Until we find an ideological anchor that can bind us all together, something rooted in our own philosophy and worldview, we may never stop lagging behind. Same for the rest of Africa.

It is not easy to build a Nation and nurture an ideology, we've never tried building one, we've tried copying, but never invented or innovated a national philosophy, the Americans did, the British did, the Chinese did, Russinas did, french did, even with the close cultural affinity these people share, you can still see the unique differences in political ideology and culture. It starts and end with philosophy, ideology and culture.

When Gandhi a Western trained lawyer was wearing "sari" and practicing the virtues of Hinduism while using the same ideas to push for independence and anchor his people's mind on those principles, some folks called him crazy, although his country still have a long way to go, but today, they've made tremendous progress and they will definitely make more.  

I asked a question on page one, I will ask again: What is the Nigerian ideology? What is the Nigerian culture?

spot on, if you notice i have asked the same question, but most want escapism and start talking about south east asia

I will answer your question

Nigerian ideology - NONE

Nigerian culture - NONE

phew! that was hard lol!

okada_man:

I'm glad this discussion is still going on with minimal diversion, @Nolongthing, thank you for pushing the point very few of us made earlier on in the thread. I saw the replies you gave to Kay, Playmode and others, you saved me a lot of trouble bro. Its not easy to get away from my okada business.

Let's keep one thing in mind, the people commenting on this thread probably care a lot about fundamental issues, they want changes and they desire progress for their people. We might have different ideas about how to solve these problems, but we mostly want them solved.

I've noticed 3 major views on this thread now.

1. Those who believe that we need a cultural and ideological revolution/change.

2. Those who believe there is something inherently wrong with the African.

3 Those who believe we just need to get better at embracing what works elsewhere.

I sympathize with 3 but I'm firmly and unashamedly in support of 1. Like I mentioned on page one and two. Until we find an ideological anchor that can bind us all together, something rooted in our own philosophy and worldview, we may never stop lagging behind. Same for the rest of Africa.

It is not easy to build a Nation and nurture an ideology, we've never tried building one, we've tried copying, but never invented or innovated a national philosophy, the Americans did, the British did, the Chinese did, Russinas did, french did, even with the close cultural affinity these people share, you can still see the unique differences in political ideology and culture. It starts and end with philosophy, ideology and culture.

When Gandhi a Western trained lawyer was wearing "sari" and practicing the virtues of Hinduism while using the same ideas to push for independence and anchor his people's mind on those principles, some folks called him crazy, although his country still have a long way to go, but today, they've made tremendous progress and they will definitely make more.  

I asked a question on page one, I will ask again: What is the Nigerian ideology? What is the Nigerian culture?

You have a point but how can we even nurture an ideology when we don't even love each other? Have you ever witnessed a tribal war on nairaland before? We have so many issues that divide us as a nation that it might just be impossible for us to collectively nurture one ideology.

okada_man:

It is not easy to build a Nation and nurture an ideology, we've never tried building one, we've tried copying, but never invented or innovated a national philosophy, the Americans did, the British did, the Chinese did, Russinas did, french did, even with the close cultural affinity these people share, you can still see the unique differences in political ideology and culture. It starts and end with philosophy, ideology and culture.

When Gandhi a Western trained lawyer was wearing "sari" and practicing the virtues of Hinduism while using the same ideas to push for independence and anchor his people's mind on those principles, some folks called him crazy, although his country still have a long way to go, but today, they've made tremendous progress and they will definitely make more.  

I asked a question on page one, I will ask again: What is the Nigerian ideology? What is the Nigerian culture?

You ask an interesting question, but the answer is known to many. There is nothing like a "Nigerian ideology," nor is there a "Nigerian culture." This is not only found in Nigeria, but throughout the African continent. Our nations with the exception of Ethiopia, Somalia and Egypt to a lesser extent were made by an outside foreign power. Even though India went through foreign domination, the Indian subcontinent is united through a common culture that is deeply rooted in Hinduism and a common history. Gandhi was able to use this shared culture to his advantage, and he challenged the system that was deeply rooted in the history of his people. Nigeria and many African nations have no shared history or culture to use. The answers are as clear as the sky on a sunny day. How do our nations which were drawn so arbitrarily at the Berlin Conference of 1884 will progress if we do not have a shared history, culture or language compared to the nations that you mentioned? It will be very hard to create an ideology that would unite a people, when this unity was created through the domination and subjugation of a diverse group of people.

Rousseau:

Let us take a look at the Asian nations that have progressed since 1960, with a particular focus on the Asian Tigers of  Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan. These four nations maintained high growth rates of over 7% a year between 1960 to 1990. During this time, they used their high GDP growth to industrialize their nation. We cannot forget that the Asian Tigers focused on their own respective competitive advantage. Singapore became a trading depot, South Korea focused on electronics and cars which allowed them to compete with Japan, Hong Kong is an international banking center and Taiwan has a diversified economy. However, I believe the main reason these nations were able to grow so rapidly and industrialize is, because they had a common origin and goals. Are these nations as diverse as the African states that make up our continent? The answer is no.

150 million Japanese 127 million speak Japanese

Korea 70 million (South Korea ~ 49 million) speak Korean

Hong Kong 7 million speak Chinese and English

China ~1.3 billion people 70% of the people (900 million people) speak Mandarin 

Taiwanese most speak Mandarin  - 27 million people

Malaysians speak  Bahasa Malaysia – the malay language

Singaporians speak Chinese, Malay, and Tamil English is the first language of the nation and is the language of business, government and medium of instruction in schools.

Now in the case of Singapore (former british colony) they only have 3 languages apart from English, Nigeria has around 240 languages some say more!

Anthropologists have proved that life started in Africa and the further you move away from WEST Africa the fewer languages you will find. Hence we need a different social paradigm in Africa we are unique beings indeed.

What do most Africans speak?

What do most Nigerians speak?

If African communicate in a foreign language LIKE WE ARE NOW and have no national culture will they be able to develop quickly?

lol@Logica, 9

You are hilarious, old chap!! So now I am White-hehehehehehe, so what makes you say that? Because I can string along a sentence without sounding ridiculous? Because I know a lot about European history? It seems that, according to you, it’s only whites who possess the “magic” of logic and reason. Lol, Who is the self-hater now, me or you? Well, to answer your narrow-minded little brain, I am not white or even mixed race. I am just allergic to ignorance and inanity. I know about European history  because I went to school in the Netherlands for post-graduate study.

Now, to summarize my points,  so that even you can  understand (you need to seriously stop watching so much TV. watch this instead:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BVNN1wqw3k lol!!!!!!

1. You cannot blame the West for Africa’s woes, all our woes are self inflicted. Why?

 Africa has become materially more decrepit AFTER Independence — hungrier, poorer, less educated, more pessimistic, more corrupt, and you can’t tell the politicians from the witch doctors. We still rely on colonial-era infrastructure. In the post colonial era,  Africa has given almost nothing to anybody apart from raw materials, political shenanigans, complaints and self pity.SHAME

 Singapore, Hong Kong, China, Taiwan, South Korea, Ireland, Finland, the Netherlands, etc. were all former colonies of various Imperial Powers. Finland was colonized for 700 brutal years by the Russians. In the 18th and 19th Centuries many Finns escaped to the United States and Canada to escape famine and oppression. Ditto the Irish under British rule.

2. Why is Africa so poor?

 The only Africans I single out for blame are the corrupt, idiotic and thieving leaders. The elite in Africa, even those with an Ivy League education are incredibly ridiculous.

 Uniquely among other human beings, we utterly refuse to do anything about our predicament. We are unable or unwilling to do so. Most leaders in Africa are elected, its a poor reflection of the voters in general.

 There are few African Lee Kwan Yeuw, Artuturk, Deng Xiaoping, David Ben-Gurion, Vladimir Putin, Sir Seretse Khama, Fashola……Why are so few of them elected into office?

 Other cultures have had it worse than Africans; Apocalyptic floods, earthquakes, harsh winters year in , year out, terrible tribalism, Fukushima, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the violation of Nanking, worse Colonialism, slavery, famine, wars that lasted 100 years, Revolutions, Genocides, the Holocaust, Cannibalism, etc, etc,

But even as they bury their thousands of dead after these disasters, one thing you will not hear from these people is complaint or self-pity.

 There are aspects of African culture are incompatible with Modernity.

Modernity does not equal Westenization. If you ever see a Shinto priest in Tokyo, Japan, blessing a Bullet train in an ancient ritual. You will realize that Japan is very traditional, but very modern as well.

Africans are fun loving, happy smiley folk, but we don't plan and organize too well, we live for today. We don't know the meaning of planning. African lives are not guided by rational, logical thought processes because for the most parts there are no viable state institutions. Instead, we have Potemkin or Shell states; Ministries of Labour which don't create any jobs and Central Banks which never have any money. Even the little money that is there is frivoulously wasted on shiny buildings, vehicles and generous Per Diems, never on the core function, the Raison d'être.

 Africa has received ten “Marshall plans” since the 1960’s (in purchasing power parity Dollar terms).
Which was all spent on frivolous Western and Japanese consumer goods:  Mercedes Benz, Toyota, Sony, I-pad, Dolce & Gabbana,  Swiss banking, London and Dubai properties. Why are more Mercedes Benz and Armani suits sold in Nigeria than in Singapore. WHY?

 Why is Haiti so bone crushingly poor 500 years after her liberation from slavery? Why is Jamaica and most of the Caribbean poor? How about black Colombia and the favelas of Brazil? Why is the Bronx in New York and Peckham in London poor? Are Africans pre-destined for misery?

If you don’t answer the above questions honestly, you might as well wear your tin-foil hat and continue burying your head in the sand.

Thanks.

I'm firmly in camp #3, I guess.

There may be some merit to camp #1. Perhaps partitioning Nigeria (or less drastically, heavily federalizing it) would be enough (Incidentally, I'm in favor of federalization and possibly partitioning the country.) But I personally think that more is necessary.

Hmm, maybe I'm more in camp #1 than I think. But all the stuff when people complain about speaking European languages, blahblah, African culture being killed off. . . I think that is all a crock, personally. I think the conflict in Nigeria between the geopolitical regions and especially the core North and the rest of the country has certainly held us back a lot. But complaining about the white man making you speak English, colonization, whitey holding back Africa. . . all very lame to me.

ekt_bear:

I'm firmly in camp #3, I guess.

There may be some merit to camp #1. Perhaps partitioning Nigeria (or less drastically, heavily federalizing it) would be enough (Incidentally, I'm in favor of federalization and possibly partitioning the country.) But I personally think that more is necessary.

Hmm, maybe I'm more in camp #1 than I think. But all the stuff when people complain about speaking European languages, blahblah, African culture being killed off. . . I think that is all a crock, personally. I think the conflict in Nigeria between the geopolitical regions and especially the core North and the rest of the country has certainly held us back a lot. But complaining about the white man making you speak English, colonization, whitey holding back Africa. . . all very lame to me.

Exactly

playmode:

Exactly 

You should be afraid to talk when Im around, you are firmly in camp ZERO  how pathetic, going around highlighting other peoples words 

go on, wait for me to log out before you type some more sissy sh^57t lol!

[size=13pt]Those who are in camp 2 are self-hating fools
folks in camp 3 are self-deluded fantasists, running around looking for something thats on their doorstep but they are too short-sighted to see it - full of crap!
Those in camp 1 are enlightend realists with the solutions[/size]

nolongTing:

spot on, if you notice i have asked the same question, but most want escapism and start talking about south east asia

I will answer your question

Nigerian ideology - NONE

Nigerian culture - NONE

phew! that was hard lol!

Now we are getting some where.

I must add that a lot of people will come on here and tell you we have culture, they will mention agbada and obi cap and several other fleeting things, they will ignore the ideology part.

playmode:

You have a point but how can we even nurture an ideology when we don't even love each other? Have you ever witnessed a tribal war on nairaland before? We have so many issues that divide us as a nation that it might just be impossible for us to collectively nurture one ideology.

Good questions you are asking too.

TO nurture( great choice of words, btw) you have to positively indoctrinate (not necessarily a bad word)

We "indoctrinate" our kids right from age 0, it is an essential part of development, we need to teach ourselves a coherent set of values that we can connect to, values rooted in the principles that we already agree with in ways that our people can understand.

Language is important

History is vital

Values are key


If you ask people not to steal public funds, they need to understand why and what the consequences are; our culture and ideology must have ready answers that we all can understand and connect to, even the littlest and most "illiterate" of us.

If you want Nigerians to manufacture cars and go to space you must support that quest with an ideology, people must have a higher philosophical reason why they need to do that, Our farmer ancestors didn't just till the soil for no reason, they had to feed themselves and provide for the gods, it was a calling, an ideological vocation rooted in community values that transcended the individual.

I have a lot more to say, a lot more, but this is just not a good medium for it.

I'm not sure the democracy we presently practice can do it, but even if we need to use it some paste and copy ideas will have to be modified.

We need a philosopher leader, someone or a set of people who believe and can articulate these ideologies, can guide it and can enforce it. not necessarily in a brutal way.

We need these idea to find a connection to what we already accept as good values. I'm not a supporter of communism for African countries But when Engels and Karl Marx formulated the first few ideas of socialism, It was not because they loved to write and preach, but because they saw a problem that needed a solution. Their ideas were not perfect -or maybe they were too perfect- they were not devils or Satan, or control freaks, But they were looking for solutions to the issues that plagued their society, same for the founders of Capitalism and most other isms.

But these isms needed to be indoctrinated through peace or war through propaganda or hegemony, You need to find away to get the people immersed in it, My argument is that it is easier and less painful when you connect it to something they already believe.

The Chinese think financial corruption is so evil that they need to kill people for it, Street based Nigerian agree with the Chinese, so they kill you if you steal N20 at the market, (trust me I'm an okadaman I've seen it many times) Nigerian leaders and other office based Nigerian don't think it's a big deal, unfortunately they are not even taking any coherent steps to counter it, so people are confused: maybe N20 is bad but 2, 000,000,000 is fine.


Summary: Our values are dis-jointed, we need to find that synergy. We need to actively get our people indoctrinated to believe and accept a given set of ideas and those ideas must be rooted in positive values they already share and believe in.

Rousseau:

You ask an interesting question, but the answer is known to many. There is nothing like a "Nigerian ideology," nor is there a "Nigerian culture." This is not only found in Nigeria, but throughout the African continent.

We need to find it or create the damn thing. Our progress depends on it, else we will continue to occupy the lowest rung.

nolongTing:

150 million Japanese 127 million speak Japanese

Korea 70 million (South Korea ~ 49 million) speak Korean

Hong Kong 7 million speak Chinese and English

China ~1.3 billion people 70% of the people (900 million people) speak Mandarin 

Taiwanese most speak Mandarin  - 27 million people

Malaysians speak  Bahasa Malaysia – the malay language

Singaporians speak Chinese, Malay, and Tamil English is the first language of the nation and is the language of business, government and medium of instruction in schools.

Now in the case of Singapore (former british colony) they only have 3 languages apart from English, Nigeria has around 240 languages some say more!

Anthropologists have proved that life started in Africa and the further you move away from WEST Africa the fewer languages you will find.  Hence we need a different social paradigm in Africa we are unique beings indeed.

What do most Africans speak?

What do most Nigerians speak?

If African communicate in a foreign language LIKE WE ARE NOW and have no national culture will they be able to develop quickly?

Language is key, it is a vehicle for the transportation of ideas and culture. If you don't have a deep connection to the language you use officially, you are at a disadvantage

ekt_bear:

I'm firmly in camp #3, I guess.

There may be some merit to camp #1. Perhaps partitioning Nigeria (or less drastically, heavily federalizing it) would be enough (Incidentally, I'm in favor of federalization and possibly partitioning the country.) But I personally think that more is necessary.

Hmm, maybe I'm more in camp #1 than I think. But all the stuff when people complain about speaking European languages, blahblah, African culture being killed off. . . I think that is all a crock, personally. I think the conflict in Nigeria between the geopolitical regions and especially the core North and the rest of the country has certainly held us back a lot. But complaining about the white man making you speak English, colonization, whitey holding back Africa. . . all very lame to me.

There is nothing lame about self determination. You are almost there.

let's leave whites out of the issue, they did what they had to do to push and advance themselves, The question is how do we fix our own issue?

We all know our leadership is bad. My real question is why we haven't done anything about it?   Good leadership don't just fall down from the sky.

nolongTing:

You should be afraid to talk when Im around, you are firmly in camp ZERO  how pathetic, going around highlighting other peoples words 

go on, wait for me to log out before you type some more sissy sh^57t lol!  

***Yawn*** Afraid to talk Are u you high on meth,what is there to say to someone who speaks "monkey".I dared you to open a thread and challenge me there but you are too chicken to do so instead you want to steal someone else's shine.I told you before this is not your thread and the longer you continue to attempt to derail the thread with your childish rhetoric ,it shows that you do not have respect for the Op ,the thread and other Nlers.

You talk about being Afraid ,what do you know about fear? You obviously have no clue about the person you are dealing other wise you will crap your pants.  

Always funny when i see little internet warriors like you starting trouble from the safety of your computer.You have been going on and going like you are attracted to me.Dude i don't roll like that,look for your azz playmate elsewhere.We are having a debate which is educative but you have not being able to hold back your area boy mentality.Just exploding in short bursts like a mad man on steroids  . If this was a debate on Tv ,is this how you will insulting and attacking people like a 'bush man"?  

I don't take you serious my boy ,you are like a fly buzzing around an elephant.You know when you swat a fly it never goes away ,it keeps coming back because it is too silly to realize that he is irrelevant.Why are you so desperate for my attention? It is like you need my approval before you gain manners.Go play i am busy.If anything ,all you have being doing is making me sleepy.Your username should be valium.

Now if you continue your crazy rants on this thread it means you are an illmannered ,classless,uncultured ,slow junky who suffers from acute inferiority complex and IQ deficiency. 

Another problem is that we Africans cant discuss without insulting eachothers

nolongTing:

I agree with you  d.umb f_ool! You are like a cockroach trying to scare a Lion, if you knew me you would apologise for dreaming of showing disrespect, I will have you disappear you lil Arrow  - I have had enough of telling what a fool you are

You and what army ? Better ask "beaf" before you get yourself into trouble   . I am a patient guy but when i pounce on you are on your own!

**sigh** You can take the monkey out of the jungle and give it an education but you can never take the jungle out of the monkey.You are mainly an educated abgero.  

Rgp92:

Another problem is that we Africans cant discuss without insulting eachothers

True words,i have been trying to get this leach of my back since yesterday but he just won't let go.Remember when i said Nigerians always love to bicker? this is a typical example.The least the man-lover that can do is respect the thread but NO ,he just wants to be the center of attention at the expense of the important topic at hand.

My-Key:

You are hilarious, old chap!! So now I am White-hehehehehehe, so what makes you say that? Because I can string along a sentence without sounding ridiculous? Because I know a lot about European history? It seems that, according to you, it’s only whites who possess the “magic” of logic and reason. Lol, Who is the self-hater now, me or you? Well, to answer your narrow-minded little brain, I am not white or even mixed race. I am just allergic to ignorance and inanity. I know about European history  because I went to school in the Netherlands for post-graduate study.

LOL. Look at this mo.r.on. I can just imagine this fool preening because I suspect he's white. Where in my post did I suggest that you are white because you know about European history? What do you know about European history that I don't know even better? Monkey. I indicated why I suggested this dyslexic cretin  is white (because he referred to me as "nigger" and he went off on a tangent of self-adulation. Jezuz, some mothers do have them. I don't remotely care whether you are a white monkey or green, or where you schooled. LOL @ post-graduate study in Netherlands. And so? LMAO.

My-Key:

 Why is Haiti so bone crushingly poor 500 years after her liberation from slavery? Why is Jamaica and most of the Caribbean poor? How about black Colombia and the favelas of Brazil? Why is the Bronx in New York and Peckham in London poor? Are Africans pre-destined for misery?

Now see the silly questions he's asking. Why did you also have Italians and Jews in the ghettos of New York in the early 20th century? Why do discriminated and down-trodden people end up in the ghetto? Is that a rhetoric question, since the answer is already in the question?

Anybody who doesn't know why Haiti is still poor after 500 years does not even need to be noticed. Continue basking in your own ignorance and self-adulation.

For the more info on Haiti's debt, those who need to know more should read these:

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/relief-and-reconstruction-watch/france-is-not-paying-back-what-it-owes-haiti-after-all

Media reports that France would pay back an historic debt – essentially a ransom that it demanded in order for Haiti to have international diplomatic and economic recognition – in order to aid Haiti’s earthquake recovery were revealed to be a hoax. Embarrassed by the reports, which came out as France enjoyed its national holiday of Bastille Day, the French government has said it is looking into legal action against the perpetrators.

But the question should be why doesn't France make this restitution? In the Twenty First Century, it is difficult to argue that this is a legitimate debt that Haiti owed France, rather than economic punishment for Haiti's achievement of liberty. Imagine if all of Europe had shunned the newly born United States of America in 1784 upon its successful revolution, and that Britain had demanded an exorbitant sum from the US in order for it to have diplomatic recognition and be able to trade with other nations. Imagine if the sum were so large, and the U.S. were so damaged by the war, that it did not finish paying off Britain until 122 years later – which is how long it took Haiti to finally make its last payment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti

Haiti’s legacy of debt began shortly after gaining independence from France in 1804. In 1825, France, with warships at the ready, demanded Haiti compensate France for its loss of men and slave colony. In exchange for French recognition of Haiti as a sovereign republic, France demanded payment of 150 million francs (modern equivalent of $21 billion).[1] In 1838, France agreed to reduce the debt to 60 million francs to be paid over a period of 30 years.[2] In 1883, Haiti made the final payment

Though I must say the date 1883 may not be quite accurate.

And this is quite a good article:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Haiti/White_Curse.html

And even more:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/01/14/why-haitis-earthquake-is-frances-problem.html

In fact the whole Internet is full of articles on this matter. Even the blind cannot miss knowing this injustice against Haiti, except for self-loathers and fools who already have their minds made up. Oh, and those who have a post-graduate degree from Holland LMAO!

logica:

LOL. Look at this mo.r.on. I can just imagine this fool preening because I suspect he's white. Where in my post did I suggest that you are white because you know about European history? What do you know about European history that I don't know even better? Monkey. I indicated why I suggested this dyslexic cretin  is white (because he referred to me as "nigger" and he went off on a tangent of self-adulation. Jezuz, some mothers do have them. I don't remotely care whether you are a white monkey or green, or where you schooled. LOL @ post-graduate study in Netherlands. And so? LMAO.
Now see the silly questions he's asking. Why did you also have Italians and Jews in the ghettos of New York in the early 20th century? Why do discriminated and down-trodden people end up in the ghetto? Is that a rhetoric question, since the answer is already in the question?

Anybody who doesn't know why Haiti is still poor after 500 years does not even need to be noticed. Continue basking in your own ignorance and self-adulation.

For the more info on Haiti's debt, those who need to know more should read these:

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/relief-and-reconstruction-watch/france-is-not-paying-back-what-it-owes-haiti-after-all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti

Though I must say the date 1883 may not be quite accurate.

And this is quite a good article:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Haiti/White_Curse.html

And even more:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/01/14/why-haitis-earthquake-is-frances-problem.html

In fact the whole Internet is full of articles on this matter. Even the blind cannot miss knowing this injustice against Haiti, except for self-loathers and fools who already have their minds made up. Oh, and those who have a have a post-graduate degree from Holland LMAO!

I think that oyinbo guy should pay you for all this free education 

nolongTing:

I think that oyinbo guy should pay you for all this free education 

To be honest, I don't expect the self-adulator to be educated. Nothing I write up there will sink in. He not only suffers from delusions of grandeur and superiority complex (after all he has a PGD from the Netherlands), he is unteachable. I am only writing for the benefit of those with an open mind coming to this thread to read. My advice to him would be to go collect his school fees back if all he learnt in school was self-loathing and to think like a Boer (why not come to Nigeria to effect Apartheid?).

logica:

To be honest, I don't expect the self-adulator to be educated. Nothing I write up there will sink in. He not only suffers from delusions of grandeur and superiority complex (after all he has a PGD from the Netherlands), he is unteachable. I am only writing for the benefit of those with an open mind coming to this thread to read. My advice to him would be to go collect his school fees back if all he learnt in school was self-loathing and to think like a Boer (why not come to Nigeria to effect Apartheid?).

Oh, don't be silly.

Wasn't it you who said. " Your white singlet (that was peeking a bit from onset) and white thong is to showing from under your fake and torn black adornment. I'm sure you feel white don't you (that's not if you are actually white)? Kindly take a walk, Uncle Tom.", ? huh? ? WTF?!

See, that right there is the problem in Africa. Why would you deny a statement you made today at 07:34:08 AM  , yet it's on record? lol!! :Lack of a logical thought process, devoid of all reason, it's there for all to see!!!

Then, instead of attacking the points that I have put across, you attack me personally. Typical.

I suggest you read the following books urgently:-

From Third World to First-Lee Kuan Yeuw.
Putin's Progress-Peter Truscott.
The trouble with Nigeria-Chinua Achebe.
In the footsteps of Mr. Kurtz-Michela Wrong.
Keith Richburg-out of America.

Then come back and we could have a chat.

Cheers

logica:

LOL. Look at this mo.r.on. I can just imagine this fool preening because I suspect he's white. Where in my post did I suggest that you are white because you know about European history? What do you know about European history that I don't know even better? Monkey. I indicated why I suggested this dyslexic cretin  is white (because he referred to me as "nigger" and he went off on a tangent of self-adulation. Jezuz, some mothers do have them. I don't remotely care whether you are a white monkey or green, or where you schooled. LOL @ post-graduate study in Netherlands. And so? LMAO.
Now see the silly questions he's asking. Why did you also have Italians and Jews in the ghettos of New York in the early 20th century? Why do discriminated and down-trodden people end up in the ghetto? Is that a rhetoric question, since the answer is already in the question?

Anybody who doesn't know why Haiti is still poor after 500 years does not even need to be noticed. Continue basking in your own ignorance and self-adulation.

For the more info on Haiti's debt, those who need to know more should read these:

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/relief-and-reconstruction-watch/france-is-not-paying-back-what-it-owes-haiti-after-all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti

Though I must say the date 1883 may not be quite accurate.

And this is quite a good article:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Haiti/White_Curse.html

And even more:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/01/14/why-haitis-earthquake-is-frances-problem.html

In fact the whole Internet is full of articles on this matter. Even the blind cannot miss knowing this injustice against Haiti, except for self-loathers and fools who already have their minds made up. Oh, and those who have a post-graduate degree from Holland LMAO!

Yet more contradictions, complaints and self pity (in that order).

So you admit that there were Italian and Jewish slums in New York in the early 20th Century. Well, are they there now? the Italians and Jews went up the ladder, they bettered their lives. I am sure you've never been to New York, have you? well, lemme school you, old chap.

In the Borough of Queens, there is a Jewish neighbourhood known as Jamaica Estates-nice, clean, pleasant, safe. Almost all thanks to local efforts. A subway stop or two away is the ghastly black slum known as Queens Jamaica. The staircases of people's apartments stink of urine, there is a huge crack addiction problem and muggings and violence are endemic-almost all thanks to local efforts. The irony is that the Government houses would look quite nice if they were well maintained-you know, a lick of paint here, a lawn mowed there, , simple things like that.

You attempted to answer a question about Haiti, but failed. Haiti is similarly poor thanks to local efforts. When elections do take place there they are a joke. In 1997 only six percent of the voters even bothered to show up at the polls for parliamentary elections. The results were annulled because of fraud. In May 2000 there was finally another parliamentary election. Fifteen people were killed leading up to the vote, two were killed on the day of the vote, and three opposition leaders killed after the vote (one was stoned to death). The government arrested more than 20 opposition candidates after the elections. The balloting itself was rife with fraud. The ruling Lavalas Party of Mr. Preval and former president Jean-Bertrand Aristide controlled the polling stations and thousands of votes were “lost” in transit to the capital Port-au-Prince.

Mr. Aristide was barred from consecutive terms by the Haitian constitution but still “won” a November 2000 election with 92 percent of the vote, after an opposition boycott. Not even the United Nations could stomach this farce.

Also, bear in mind that Haiti is a nation of eight million people whose illiteracy rate is 60 percent, the unemployment rate 65 percent, and the average per capita annual income is estimated at $225. The United Nations says 60 percent of the population is sexually active by age 12 and the average number of births per woman is 4.8. The population is expected to double to 16 million by 2030, and Haiti’s overpopulation is ravaging the environment. At the turn of the century it still had half of its original forests, but today only 1.5 percent are left. Most Haitians depend on firewood for fuel. Haitians cut down 25-30 million trees, causing the erosion of 15,000 acres of farmland. As a result, 25 of Haiti’s 30 watersheds are essentially denuded. Haiti must import 60 percent of its food, and is teeming with poor, diseased, desperate people,

But as always, you wear your tin foil hat and bury your head in the sand.

For anyone who might be economically inclined who might be reading this thread, I started reading about this Singapore CPF (central provident fund, basically their mandatory savings plan).

I had the suspicion that this was the secret to their success. Then did a bit more reading, and came across this blog post.

Any thoughts, NL economists (e.g., Katsumoto)? It seems that high savings is the path to high GDP growth.

It's a shame in predictable fashion what started off well as a good thread with great intellectual arguments, seems to have being bitten by the nairaland bug of name calling and point scoring. Please could we keep the discussions civil without resorting to mudslinging. The ability to articulate and put your points across to an audience is a sign of intelligence. The ability to do so in a manner that shows respect and without contempt to a different view is a greater sign of intelligence and maturity.

Nija4Life:

It's a shame in predictable fashion what started off well as a good thread with great intellectual arguments, seems to have being bitten by the nairaland bug of name calling and point scoring. Please could we keep the discussions civil without resorting to mudslinging. The ability to articulate and put your points across to an audience is a sign of intelligence. The ability to do so in a manner that shows respect and without contempt to a different view is a greater sign of intelligence and maturity.

You have now been awarded a NL nobel peace prize, get real NL is full of dimwits and they only understand one language; stop trying to be a goody two shoes and make a constructive point. The OP messed up his own thread talking about Crock and whatever , so its all about leading by example.

ekt_bear:

For anyone who might be economically inclined who might be reading this thread, I started reading about this Singapore CPF (central provident fund, basically their mandatory savings plan).

I had the suspicion that this was the secret to their success. Then did a bit more reading, and came across this blog post.

Any thoughts, NL economists (e.g., Katsumoto)? It seems that high savings is the path to high GDP growth.

high saving - nope thats a load of crock as you put it, just ask your Gods the japanese