italo:


Now in order to fully grasp this you must know that the Catholic Church teaches that we will pay for every sin we commit, in this life (through suffering, prayer, acts of charity etc) or in the next life (purgatory), even if those sins are already forgiven.

In other words, you will pay for every sin that has been forgiven? Nice. I'll wait to see your 'scriptural backing'.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5: who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Loading

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

One quick question before you go on.

italo:

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5: who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge.

Matthew 5:26 - 'Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison' (Catholic Douay Rheims version)

You said that the 'adversary' (ie., 'opponent' - antidikos) is likely a reference to the devil. If that were the case, the logical conclusion of that verse would be suggesting that believers were to 'BE AT AGREEMENT' with the 'antidikos' - the devil, according to you.

Bearing in mind that the NT teaches that Christians and the devil (ie., Belial) have no 'agreememnt' (2 Cor. 6:15), the question is: since when does the Catholic Church preach that Christian believers should "be at agreement" with the devil?

Perhaps you want to think again about the interpretation you're deriving from Matthew 5:26 and Luke 12:58. Do Christians have any "agreement" with the devil?

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.. Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

@Joagbaje, I'll wait to see if you're following and/or have any reservations before I continue.

All I've been doing is try to show that there's a state in the afterlife that is neither heaven nor hell.

*trying to avoid any distraction or deviation in this search for truth*

Hell is a temporary abode of the wicked till the final judgement.But not a place for second chance for those who had turned down the gospel

Nowhere did I say there's a 2nd chance for one who turns down the gospel.

And if hell is the temporary abode of the wicked, where is their permanent abode?

Their end is lake of fire. Hell itself and its occupants will be cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

italo:

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.

Paul was dealing with a people who don't believe in resurrection . He was exposing their contradiction. But we can't build on it as a christian practice. Because nobody taught such. The verse has contoversy though.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.. Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

The mercy is a kind of reward at the judgement seat if christ or every believer. We are not all going to have thesame reward. Some christians will not recieve any reward .there will be categories in heaven. Onesiphorus was a christian already . He didn't deny being identified with paul. He shunned the risk of arrest .

2 Timothy 1:16-17
. . . for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: 17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.


That's the greatest commitment. Peter denied christ. But this guy identified with paul And there was no indication that he was dead.

Bravo, Wordtalk.
I enjoyed your handling of faith and works. I didn't have the pleasure of joining as I came in too late. I am inviting you to this thread on the same issue: www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-754485.32.html#msg9166333.

I think both WordTalk and Italo are right. The Bible in some cases state that Works are required for one to be saved and in other cases implied that grace is all it takes. This raises issues about the obvious contradictions in the Bible. It makes it easy for anyone to pick or select a verse to prove a case. But if you take it as a whole, you will DEFINITELY spot the contradictions.

@Joagbaje,

Well 'hell', when it's used in the Bible is a translation from three words: the hebrew word 'sheol', the greek word 'hades' (which both mean a temporary abode for the dead - good and bad); and the greek word 'gehenna' (which means a place of eternal fire and damnation).

Proof of 'hell' being used as 'gehenna' can be found in Mark 9: 43-48 & Matt 18: 8 & 9.

And there's more than an indication that Onesiphorus was dead

Because Paul speaks of Onesiphorus only in the past tense, wishes present blessings upon his family, and mercy for him "in that day", towards the end of the same letter, in 2 Timothy 4:19, Paul sends greetings to "Prisca and Aquila, and the family of Onesiphorus", again distinguishing the situation of Onesiphorus from that of the still living Prisca and Aquila.

So paul prayed for mercy for Onesiphorus, I don't want to believe you are insinuating that Paul was praying for Onesiphorus to have a greater reward, Because, firstly, there no indication of that; secondly, what mercy could you wish for one who already has eternal life? Do you not see what Rev 20: 6 says about them? "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years".

Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

italo:

@Joagbaje,
And there's more than an indication that Onesiphorus was dead

Because Paul speaks of Onesiphorus only in the past tense,

The man definately was not in Pauls vicinity as at that time . Probably travelled or something. There is no indication of death. Even if he was dead, it still doesn't justify your claim. There different levels of reward in heaven. Heaven itself is nit a reward. If you're born again you automatically becomes an "heaven" man. Is  Being a Nigerian a reward? . You're born into it. We are born from above.

Philippians 3:20
20 We, however, are citizens of heaven. We look forward to the Lord Jesus Christ coming from heaven as our Savior.

So paul prayed for mercy for Onesiphorus, I don't want to believe you are insinuating that Paul was praying for Onesiphorus to have a greater reward,  Because, firstly, there no indication of that;

A reward is given for a work done. Those of us who serve the master in soul winning,and every other work of service have reward for it. Some have more rewards others have less. Yet some will have no reward at all. But they will still be saved
.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Some will recieve a crown some will recieve many crown some will have no crown. Jesus talked about the greatest  in the kingdom. Great ,greater,greatest . These are levels .

secondly, what mercy could you wish for one who already has eternal life?

Eternal life is on earth ,not in heaven. It is now and here a man has to recieve eternal life.

1 John 5:11-13
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

If you don't have it now, you can not have it in heaven.

Its good you brought this:

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

In verse 15, you have ignored the 'if any man's work shall be burned', 'he shall suffer loss' and 'yet so as by fire' parts, and boldened only the 'but he himself shall be saved' part.

But that 'suffering loss' and 'saved as by fire' is what we Catholics call PURGATORY.

Also remember post #44

And have you admitted that good works are necessary for salvation or are you insisting that faith alone without doing good works can earn you salvation?

I think that's also crucial to this argument.

@Italo
It is important that you give an explanation of what you think salvation is and when it is gotten, otherwise you will both be using the same word for different things.

I'll answer you 5solas(remember, we r talkn about purgatory, But just a question for you, Joagbaje and anyone else.

Where did the good thief on the cross go immediately after he died?

Heaven or hell?

5solas:

Bravo, Wordtalk.
I enjoyed your handling of faith and works. I didn't have the pleasure of joining as I came in too late. I am inviting you to this thread on the same issue: www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-754485.32.html#msg9166333. 

Thanks 5solas. I've been trying to follow the discussions in both threads but have been quite busy as to be online to post comments. I appreciate how you handle these issues in a far simpler manner.

italo:

I'll answer you 5solas(remember, we r talkn about purgatory, But just a question for you, Joagbaje and anyone else.

Okay, as long as we're talking about purgatory, we'll keep our eyes on that subject.

Where did the good thief on the cross go immediately after he died?

Heaven or hell?

My dear sir, the relevant verses should be sufficient to show that the 'good thief' did not go to "purgatory". Here, read it for yourself -

Luke 23:42-43
[list]'And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.'
(Douay Rheims version used by the Catholics)[/list]

Please tell us: is "paradise" in the Bible the same thing that Catholics refer to as "purgatory"?

You tell us if "paradise" is the same thing that protestants refer to as "heaven" or "hell"

italo:

You tell us if "paradise" is the same thing that protestants refer to as "heaven" or "hell"

That must be the eleventh wonder of the east! Is it that you don't know what Catholics refer to as paradise, or you just want to quickly and cleverly duck out of the thread?

No, Protestants certainly do not refer to "hell" as 'paradise'.
Nor do Protestants refer to "paradise" as "PURGATORY".
- in this, I speak for myself, and not on behalf of all Protestants.

I'm not sure that even Catholics use 'paradise' as meaning the same as 'purgatory' (although I've seen a few in Catholic forums that argue that they are the same thing - which was why I asked YOU in particular if that were true in your case).

Further, I don't think that Catholic doctrine officially refers to purgatory as a "place" - it is more a state or process in their doctrine, even though no such thing is taught in the Bible. Some Catholics argue that purgatory is "a place" more like a "prison" where people will be held until they have paid for every sin they have commited - including those sins which have already been forgiven!

Now, when Jesus spoke of PARADISE in Luke 23:43, He certainly was not referring to what Catholics assume is PURGATORY. For one, the word 'paradise' as used in Scripture is with reference to, or indicates a place - "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise". Revelation 2:7 says that the tree of life is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Seeing that paradise at least does not refer to "hell", the question would be whether you as a Catholic use that term ('paradise') for 'PURGATORY'?

no.

So can u answer mi in clear terms too? Where did d penitent thief go immediately afta his death? Heaven, hell or somewhere else?

^^ Paradise. Luke 23:42-43.

italo:

So can u answer mi in clear terms too? Where did d penitent thief go immediately afta his death? Heaven, hell or somewhere else?

This question has already been answered in clear terms in post #51. I further explained in post #53 above.

The amazing thing about your style is that you seem to ignore what has already been said - which makes me wonder IF you ever read them at all before replying.

So again, as in post #56 above, the answer in clear terms is Paradise - Luke 23:42-43.

@italo,

Now that we know that the thief did not go to 'purgatory' (since paradise is not purgatory), can we then ask that you kindly address the pertinent issue at hand regarding salvation?

I'm still waiting to see what exactly you may mean by this -

italo:


Now in order to fully grasp this you must know that the Catholic Church teaches that we will pay for every sin we commit, in this life (through suffering, prayer, acts of charity etc) or in the next life (purgatory), even if those sins are already forgiven.

Where does the Bible teach that you will pay for those sins that are already forgiven? And if that were the case, WHY then did Jesus die for you - was it so that YOU will have to pay for your own sin by yourself?

I was using post #33, 34, 36, 43, 44, 46 to show scriptural evidence of some of the different parts of the doctrine of purgatory.

That there is/are a place/places or state/states in the afterlife that is/are neither heaven(eternal bliss) nor hell(eternal damnation) and That there can be forgiveness of/atonement for sins after death.

So while paradise is not exactly purgatory, its not irrelevant to my argument in that its neither heaven nor hell. Or do you disagree?

italo:

I was using post #33, 34, 36, 43, 44, 46 to show scriptural evidence of some of the different parts of the doctrine of purgatory.

I read those posts, and I honestly don't see how purgatory could be derived from the verses you cited there.

That there is/are a place/places or state/states in the afterlife that is/are neither heaven(eternal bliss) nor hell(eternal damnation) and That there can be forgiveness of/atonement for sins after death.

For all intents and purposes, those do not amount to 'purgatory'. I also noted earlier that official Catholic doctrine does not refer to purgatory as a place - rather, it is more a process. It is confusing to read you refer to it as 'a place or state' because that is not saying something concrete or definite.

So while paradise is not exactly purgatory, its not irrelevant to my argument in that its neither heaven nor hell. Or do you disagree?

If we have already established that purgatory is neither heaven nor hell nor even paradise, why does the question (post #49) even appear in your argument at all? Your enquiry would perhaps have made some sense if the thief was ushered into such a state or process of 'purgatory', whereas Luke 23:42-43 shows he was not (and you agreed that purgatory is NOT paradise) - so what exactly was the point in your reference to it?

Ansa 2 post #58

Ecclesiastes 12:14 says: "God will bring every deed into judgment." And In Matthew 12:36-37 Jesus says: "On the Day of Judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter."

E.g: "To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children (Gen. 3:16)
That was punishment for Eve's sin which still affects every woman today, whether they are "saved" or not. Has God taken away the punishment for that "original sin"? NO!

"Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’" (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). Did God 4giv? Yes. Did he still punish? YES!

Do you think I was expectn Wordtalk to see how purgatory could be derived from my posts? You who cdnt see how 'works being necessary for salvation could be derived from James 2: 20:"See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone". Naaa! I'm only posting these for anyone who might be reading with an open mind, genuinely seeking the truth.

Sori abt d confusion bt d state or process or condition of purgation will happen in a place, hether physical or spiritual.

#49 was to show that when we die, there's a place or state in the afterlife that is neither the eternal bliss of heaven or the eternal damnation of hell. Get it?

italo:

Ansa 2 post #58

Thanks, italo.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 says: "God will bring every deed into judgment." And In Matthew 12:36-37 Jesus says: "On the Day of Judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter."  

E.g: "To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children (Gen. 3:16)
That was punishment for Eve's sin which still affects every woman today, whether they are "saved" or not. Has God taken away the punishment for that "original sin"? NO!

"Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’" (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). Did God 4giv? Yes. Did he still punish? YES!

So let me ask you directly two important questions:

(1) are you saying that YOU still have to pay for your own sins (including those sins which have already been forgiven)?

(2) IF you still have to pay for your sins by yourself (including those that have been forgiven), what then was the purpose of Jesus' death and resurrection for you?