JeSoul:

 thehomer, thank you very much for this interjection, very well stated sir.

 Lagosshia, I'm going to challenge you a little harder brother. We discussed not too long ago on that 'mad man thread' about obvious answers that may clash with our religious beliefs. I have no intention of 'using your own answer against you', infact on the contrary it would improve the negative estimation of muslims in this section to hear someone like you call out something wrong for what it is.

 Should it be right for a man to be sentenced to death simply because of what he believes? How does that reconcile with your faith? thanks in advance.

JeSoul:

You missed the point.

  You attempted to cite the 'oldest church in the world' in Iran as an example of their tolerance to which I was responding as I did a yr ago: Get it now?

debosky:

As for Iran giving more rights to minorities than Europe, may I just remind you that NO MOSLEM would be killed for preaching his religion in Europe. You are definitely right about that - no minorities in Europe have the 'right' to be killed for preaching other religions.

LagosShia:

this my response is both to you and to "the homer".

i have later on stated my personal view and thoughts on this issue as i see it fit from the Quran.in another forum,i have even gone as far as calling death penalty for apostacy as un-islamic because it clear goes against what the Quran says.so i really dont know why people over here have a fanatical way of dragging on issues even after answers have being provided.

i am not scared to be judged by anyone be he muslim or not.i follow what is in the Quran.it is through that way that i am muslim and i am shia.i also depend on my god-give intellect to think deep.this is what i said earlier on on my view on this issue:

when talking about punishment for apostacy in islam,the death penalty is not prescribed as punishment in the Quran.there is no killing for apostacy.this issue is controversial even in islamic circles.that is my personal take on the issue.i believe capital punishment for apostacy is a judeo-christian tradition found in the bible where "everyone should be stoned" literally.however,if a law exists somewhere,then it must be respected.we know how you must behave as a roman when in rome.it is part of iranian law that proselythization is a criminal act.then dont go there doing it.that also does not mean that iran does not respect or protect its minorities among them christians who have being there for about 2000 years.

this is the take of the Quran:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects Taghut and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." [2:256]


"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path."[4:137].

if (4:137),if a person is to be killed for apostacy,then how can he believe again after he disbelieves?

thehomer:

You are being inconsistent here. You claimed that you do not agree with the death penalty for apostasy yet you seem to support the death penalty in this case because there is a law like that? For you to be consistent, you would either reject your thought that the death penalty is wrong or you would agree that the law is unjust.

Keep in mind that laws can be unjust e.g laws that condone slavery etc. I don't think you would say slavery is unacceptable but they should keep the law since it is their own law. So, I think you need to evaluate your thoughts and please let us know what your conclusion is.

LagosShia:

why are you trying to evade my point deliberately?

in iran non-muslim communities exist there and they are treated well.infact both christians and jews are guaranteed a minimum quota in the iranian parliament regardless if they vote or not.do you know that?

if you compare the treatement of iranian minorities who have lived there for thousands of years,you will know that all iranians live peacefully as one.the problem comes in when american zealot missionaries want to test iranian law when they fully know what the law this.that being said is regardless of what i think is right or wrong when it comes to capital punishment.we have our views against capital punishment.that is fine.

but why do you also want to ignore those who put themselves into trouble?it is not my or your duty to change whatever law they have in iran.you have to respect that too.it is their country.
[b]
would you blame countries who sentence people to death because of having cocaine in their possession? nigerians that are found guilty of having cocaine in asian countries and are killed are mostly blamed by nigerians back home for risking their lives.[/b]why do you risk your life and then all in a bid to have some arguments to make against iran or their law?

as for the church,whether it is used or not,got to do with tolerance.if the iranian who are shia and proudly so are like the salafist/wahhabi taliban,they would have blown up that church as the taliban blew up the buddha statues in bamiyan even after the UN made it a world heritage site.iranians are proud in preserving their culture and history.they even hold the pagan period before islam when their civilization was at its highest peak and persia was strong with pride.likewise,they know well iran has a christian history and jewish history.tolerance is when we accept one another.it is not when i fold my hands and watch you brainwash me.you also have to respect and acccept that the iranians are predominantly muslims.

LagosShia:

this my response is both to you and to "the homer".

i have later on stated my personal view and thoughts on this issue as i see it fit from the Quran.in another forum,i have even gone as far as calling death penalty for apostacy as un-islamic because it clear goes against what the Quran says.so i really dont know why people over here have a fanatical way of dragging on issues even after answers have being provided.

i am not scared to be judged by anyone be he muslim or not.i follow what is in the Quran.it is through that way that i am muslim and i am shia.i also depend on my god-give intellect to think deep.this is what i said earlier on on my view on this issue:

when talking about punishment for apostacy in islam,the death penalty is not prescribed as punishment in the Quran.there is no killing for apostacy.this issue is controversial even in islamic circles.that is my personal take on the issue.i believe capital punishment for apostacy is a judeo-christian tradition found in the bible where "everyone should be stoned" literally.however,if a law exists somewhere,then it must be respected.we know how you must behave as a roman when in rome.it is part of iranian law that proselythization is a criminal act.then dont go there doing it.that also does not mean that iran does not respect or protect its minorities among them christians who have being there for about 2000 years.

this is the take of the Quran:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects Taghut and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." [2:256]


"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path."[4:137].

if (4:137),if a person is to be killed for apostacy,then how can he believe again after he disbelieves?

LagosShia:

you are missing the point on purpose and that is why you said i'm being inconsistent.islamically,death sentence for apostacy is a controversial issue and the Quran does not support it.on the other hand,proselythization is a crime in iran and missionaries know that yet they break the law knowingly banking that people like you with biase towards iran and hate for muslims and islam would spread propaganda to pressure iran and give muslims a bad image wrongly.

LagosShia:

slavery laws which were put in effect to enslave other people are different from laws against disbelief or possessing cocaine which are meant to protect the people in their own country and the majority of people agree with the law.

thehomer:

No, you're the one missing the point. Even if it is a controversial issue ( though I wonder why it should be controversial to decide whether or not it is okay to kill someone for changing their religion),

if you think it is wrong, then you should condemn the law as it stands for being a bad law.

Why should proselytizing should be a crime?

Or do you think any law devised must be free of criticism?
It isn't propaganda when they're giving themselves a bad image by murdering people for changing their religion.

I know they are different. I'm using it as an example of a bad law that was rejected by people.

You should be free and bold to do the same. If not, you're considered as being part of the problem since you're a Muslim and you're unable to even voice an opposition when you see your religion being used in a way you do not approve.
So, you're still being inconsistent.

frosbel:

Yet more circular logic , truth seems to be a foreign word to you !!

frosbel:

Are you rebuking Muhammad 

LagosShia:

in islamic law,differences in interpretations are a norm but the basis is the same and likewise the goal.this is so because we do not have among us a prophet or imam to lead us under one view accepted by all muslims.

LagosShia:

i have my own view which i gave from an islamic point and the Quran and it is against capital punishment .other than that,i am not an iranian to interfere in their laws in far away iran.na busy body dey worry una.if an iranian comes to nigeria to lecture us on our laws,the first sentence we nigerians are fond of arrogantly telling foreigners on the most trivial to the most important issue issue would be:"do you think you are in your country.this is nigeria.this is my country".

LagosShia:

simply because missionaries target the "soft spots".they go for the youths and the guillible ones or unlearned and poor people.if they want to proselythize,they who are learned in christianity should face those who are learned in islam.Ahmad Deedat,the legendary muslim preacher who literally crushed christianity in all its forms and defeated in debates the most learned of christianity converted thousands of christians into islam through those encounters.his videos are found widely on youtube.even after his death,he still attracts people through those videos and his books.

further on,Sheikh Ahmad Deedat invited the pope personally into an open debate.but the pope,the head of the largest and oldest christian denomination, refused.these people are not interested in finding the truth or reasoning together through dialogue.they care about buying people's souls with the promise of material reward.

LagosShia:

discuss nigerian law my friend.you are not a muslim and you're not iranian.you're from far away africa.therefore your blabbing is worse than propaganda.it is foolishness out of blindness and hate.

LagosShia:

mind you,the laws that are in iran were voted for in two referendums in 1979 and 1989 under Ayatollah Khomeini and the iranian people in their majority voted in favor.

when last did nigeria hold a referendum on its constitution?

LagosShia:

i have told you that there are two interpretations to apostacy and i have explained my stance.if among the muslims,be they sunni or shia,part of them both think proselythization by missionaries aimed at changing their demography and population is a threat and poses many risks then they pass law for capital punishment,that is their FREEDOM also to govern themselves.if you dont like that law,avoid them.if you dont avoid them,then you have a choice to follow your "crusader" goal and die.if you believe in Jesus,as christians like boasting,and you love him,dying for him or to spread the "gospel" is not much.is it?

LagosShia:

@the above

i have explained things perfectly well,if you like hear.if not,na you sabi!

i am not ready for a personality contest.

thehomer:

Heard you loud and clear, continue support Islamic countries that kill people for changing their religion.

thehomer:

Heard you loud and clear, continue support Islamic countries that kill people for changing their religion.

why offend others,when their very own bible says:

2 Peter 2:12
"These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed."

LagosShia:

continue defending provocators and those who are bent on deceiving guillible and unlearned people by using material bribe and politicising religion meant to offend other countries to cover up for their ill-intended acts.

why offend others,when their very own bible says:

2 Peter 2:12
"These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed."

the topic of the thread is misleading.

the presence of christianity in iran and countries like syria,lebanon,palestine and jordan are centuries old.christians are well treated in iran as a minority.

however in the case of this pastor,it has nothing to do with foricing him to accept islam.the pastor was allegedly muslim and iranian before he became christian at the age of 19 years old.iran is not against christians and that has being the policy of the islamic republic by treating minorities with respect.

however there is a recent plot by evengelicals who go to iran to wreck havoc.they first of all confuse young iranians and lay captive for them.they exploit their financial conditions to offer them things like money and even visas to western countries promising them honey and butter.that is the entire issue about this iranian pastor.

it is of more concern to me because iranians are most Shia,like myself.and the tolerance and implimentation of verse 2:256 of the Holy Quran is given more importance and emphasis by the Shia school of thought than the Sunnis do.and worse are the salafists aka wahhabis (a minority among sunnis) who believe "infidels should be killed".LOL

"there is no compulsion in religion" (Holy Quran 2:256)