doja1:

There is definitely more to the story. One problem with the family court system in the UK is the secrecy that surrounds it all, so we are definitely not being given the whole picture, both sides have things which there are not permitted to disclose which makes it impossible to understand fully what has happened here.

You know how it works!

eGuerrilla:

Well, I don't buy this line of reasoning.

In a few of the 150-odd videos uploaded to YouTube by Bishop Gloria, I see an unstable disposition which is alarming in itself.
Align this observation with the onerous task of raising '5+1 children', all under the age of 10; then tell me if it is still implausible that these parents, who were obviously constrained for time and resources, might have made some fundamental mistakes.

I call it as I see, madam.

It is no use asking Nigerians to go to war over this issue, if you are not prepared to deliver a few home truths to the Chiwars.

doja1:

There is definitely more to the story. One problem with the family court system in the UK is the secrecy that surrounds it all, so we are definitely not being given the whole picture, both sides have things which there are not permitted to disclose which makes it impossible to understand fully what has happened here.

Let us not make much of this case than it actually is.(over analysis) I live in the UK and aware of the issue of Child protection/relocation. I am certain that if this had been an abuse or neglect case, we would have heard about it as we do in the news daily.

This couple would have been in police custody of some sort and had charges brought against them but none we know of except the legal case brought against Haringey council by this couple.

This is not due process and alien to wat we know of the child protection system in the UK. Leaving in a one bedroom accommodation is no grounds to obtain people's children.

Bliss4Lyfe:

Let us not make much of this case than it actually is.(over analysis) I live in the UK and aware of the issue of Child protection/relocation. I am certain that if this had been an abuse or neglect case, we would have heard about it as we do in the news daily.

This couple would have been in police custody of some sort and had charges brought against them but none we know of except the legal case brought against Haringey council by this couple.

This is not due process and alien to wat we know of the child protection system in the UK. Leaving in a one bedroom accommodation is no grounds to obtain people's children.

Madam, you are the one who appears to have made their accomodation arrangements the main focus here, not me.
You may recall my qualification is that it more a reflection of poor judgement.

The following is the view provided by the Chiwar's representative in one of several documents I have earlier directed you to:

This case appears to hinge on the results of two forensic tests below and an assessment of Queen Elizabeth by a paediatrician;

- the comparative forensic authorship analysis between handwriting on a note allegedly found near the Musa?s accommodation and that
of Favour?s handwriting sample from her school book.

- the toxicology test for opiates in Queen Elizabeth, the Musas baby, from a sample of her body fluid taken at St. Thomas?s Hospital on 28th June 2011. The sample has been removed by the Police pursuant to court order and the results of tests in Europe are awaited. The sample is to be tested to prove it originates from the
said child. A hair strand drug test from Queen Elizabeth is also awaited.

With all Events for 16 months Haringey and their professional should Never Be trusted Because they have fabricated almost all document to enable them keep our children in long time care or adoption.

NOTE: all the reports provided hitherto are actually written from people with a favourable opinion of the Chiwars.

Now who said Colonialism is not rife? That's why their PM could assert that Any African country that ceases to adapt Same sex marriage would not get Aids from the UK.Once you are black you are treated like a MONKEY by these people.I am outta this thread.

eGuerrilla:

Well, I don't buy this line of reasoning.

In a few of the 150-odd videos uploaded to YouTube by Bishop Gloria, I see an unstable disposition which is alarming in itself.
Align this observation with the onerous task of raising '5+1 children', all under the age of 10; then tell me if it is still implausible that these parents, who were obviously constrained for time and resources, might have made some fundamental mistakes.

I call it as I see, madam.

It is no use asking Nigerians to go to war over this issue, if you are not prepared to deliver a few home truths to the Chiwars.

I really don't see your point. Parents make mistakes all the time raising their kids and are still raising those kids well. Suggesting that parents that make some 'fundamental mistakes' raising their kids should lose custody means nobody should live with their kids.

Nigerians are notorious for proper upbringing of their kids, despite our inadequacies. Whatever the issue here it, it would be proper if the British authorities allow the kids be reunited with their parents. All the data above suggest a high handed approach in separating these children from the love of their parents and frankly their excuses seems hush-wash.

When has adultery become an excuse to take kids into care?

It seems you and only you see more beyond your nose to adduce such rosy colouration to an otherwise contemptible and disgraceful act by the Haringey council

dancewith:

I really don't see your point. Parents make mistakes all the time raising their kids and are still raising those kids well. Suggesting that parents that make some 'fundamental mistakes' raising their kids should lose custody means nobody should live with their kids.

Nigerians are notorious for proper upbringing of their kids, despite our inadequacies. Whatever the issue here it, it would be proper if the British authorities allow the kids be reunited with their parents. All the data above suggest a high handed approach in separating these children from the love of their parents and frankly their excuses seems hush-wash.

When has adultery become an excuse to take kids into care? 

It seems you and only you see more beyond your nose to adduce such rosy colouration to an otherwise contemptible and disgraceful act by the Haringey council

This is an opinion you are quite entitled to hold.

You have it on good authority Haringey council's only grouse is adultery simply because you read the Chiwar's account ?

As I said before, all I have posted here are reports written by the Chiwar's and their supporters; so make of them what you will.

I will tell you this for nothing though; if you are at all interested in helping find a way forward, please advise the family to seek proper legal representation - away from McKenziean friends or loonies with an ox to grind.

set those kids free now or,

Something tells me the council may be right in this case.
Child protection is one of the most sensitive issues handled by the social serivices especially following the baby P and Victoria Climbie cases.
I have sat in many hospital directed strategy sessions( as a Paediatrician) and i tell you, there are so many stages of intervention before a decision is taken to remove a child from a family.
Adoption and fostering isnt as easy as people claim on this forum, it may take you up to 5 years before you can get to place that child in another family and in fact that is a current headache for all concerned, why do you think we have the ''Looked-After children'' group ni the UK?
Whatever the case is, i hope they can reach the best outcome for the innocent child, for the child is usually the only victim in all of these cases,

i have read the issue in passing but as much as i have reservations about the authotirites in the uk,i know for a fact that they would never take such a sensitive step without some form of evidence directly linking the woman to said allegations.
the british police are not lawless like our nigerian police and every single order made by a constabulary has to be justified and defended hence they don't take it lightly.
same goes for the child services as well.

second why would a borough seek to hold on to ,feed and take care of 5 children including a new born baby in these era of recession when all the boroughs are trying to cut costs unless there is something behind it?

i find it totally funny that they would be given the option of applying for british passports so that there children can stay in uk, im sorry i don't believe that,not in this era of immigration clamp down, both adults and children who are non eu are clamped in different detention/removal centres so i don't see why they will single this particular family out to offer them british passports.

i believe it will give much more clarification if the husband and wife stated the true version of events,I'm sure the haringey services will have their faults in the matter but stating that they are completely innocent and the police and council services just marched in one day to seize their children in a law abiding society is not only mind boggling but totally absurd

reindeer:

Something tells me the council may be right in this case.
Child protection is one of the most sensitive issues handled by the social serivices especially following the baby P and Victoria Climbie cases.
I have sat in many hospital directed strategy sessions( as a Paediatrician) and i tell you, there are so many stages  of intervention before a decision is taken to remove a child from a family.
Adoption and fostering isnt as easy as people claim on this forum, it may take you up to 5 years before you can get to place that child in another family and in fact that is a current headache for all concerned, why do you think we have the ''Looked-After children'' group ni the UK?
Whatever the case is, i hope they can reach the best outcome for the innocent child, for the child is usually the only victim in all of these cases,

lucabrasi:

i have read the issue in passing but as much as i have reservations about the authotirites in the uk,i know for a fact that they would never take such a sensitive step without some form of evidence directly linking the woman to said allegations.
the british police are not lawless like our nigerian police and every single order made by a constabulary has to be justified and defended hence they don't take it lightly.
same goes for the child services as well.

second why would a borough seek to hold on to ,feed and take care of 5 children including a new born baby in these era of recession when all the boroughs are trying to cut costs unless there is something behind it?

i find it totally funny that they would be given the option of applying for british passports so that there children can stay in uk, im sorry i don't believe that,not in this era of immigration clamp down, both adults and children who are non eu are clamped in different detention/removal centres so i don't see why they will single this particular family out to offer them british passports.

i believe it will give much more clarification if the husband and wife stated the true version of events,I'm sure the haringey services will have their faults in the matter but stating that they are completely innocent and the police and council services just marched in one day to seize their children in a law abiding society is not only mind boggling but totally absurd

Look the Uk is not a place were crimes are covered up and if this couple have in anyway mistreated their kids we definitely would have heard about it by now and dey will never finish talking about it.

I am not keen on speculations or quick to attach credibility to any government institution because we are all too aware of institutional racism in the Uk and the height bigotry can scale in the west, nobody is naive here.

There is no case on this couple substantiated and hence no news or report. The only case seems to be that of the couple against the council all over the web. Do u care to explain that, Paediatrician eGuerrilla?(reindeer)

How sound is the parents judgement if they are depnding on social services but keep having children.

The council offered them British passports - BS!

So councils are now passport issuing agencies? Even in Nigeria do local governments issue passports?

There has to have been some issues for 6 children to be taken into care - I don't know if they overreacted or not, it cannot be that the council simply 'hate' the Musas.

Outstrip:

How sound is the parents judgement if they are depnding on social services but keep having children.

Judgement? So misjudgement is ground to obtain people's children? With regards to depending on the social services, where did u get that from or is this more speculative(manufactured) grounds to obtain people's children?



@debosky, I believe they offered them forms to complete for British Citizenship i.e. passport and that would have shut all the doors for the Nigerian government to get involved in this case. Very wise of them to refuse.

Bellett added: "The Musas do not want to remain in the UK and have refused the offer from Haringey Council of an application for British passports. They cannot return to Nigeria without their children; so they are virtually prisoners in a hell created by forces beyond their control".

Bliss4Lyfe:

Judgement? So misjudgement is ground to obtain people's children? With regards to depending on the social services, where did u get that from or is this more speculative(manufactured) grounds to obtain people's children?



@debosky, I believe they offered them forms to complete for British Citizenship i.e. passport and that would have shut all the doors for the Nigerian government to get involved in this case. Very wise of them to refuse.

And who said that that should be enough to remove the children. What I said is what I said. Don't read more into it. I question their judgement in general for continuing to have children in that situation

Bliss4Lyfe:


@debosky, I believe they offered them forms to complete for British Citizenship i.e. passport and that would have shut all the doors for the Nigerian government to get involved in this case. Very wise of them to refuse.

No council can 'offer' forms for British Citizenship - it is not a function of local government. Besides if they were eligible for citizenship, no one needs to 'offer' them forms.

Bliss4Lyfe:

Look the Uk is not a place were crimes are covered up and if this couple have in anyway mistreated their kids we definitely would have heard about it by now and dey will never finish talking about it.

I am not keen on speculations or quick to attach credibility to any government institution because we are all too aware of institutional racism in the Uk and the height bigotry can scale in the west, nobody is naive here.  

There is no case on this couple substantiated and hence no news or report. The only case seems to be that of the couple against the council all over the web. Do u care to explain that, Paediatrician eGuerrilla?(reindeer)  

Madam, I know about institutional racism too; I have maintained more than just a passing interest in this particular form of discrimination.

Although I have called matters precisely as I see it on this thread, you would note that I have also enjoined the couple in question to seek help from more appropriate agencies.
The band of supporters who have been putting documents up all over the web are, in my opinion, white liberals with a good heart and a sense of misplaced loyalty.
A more cynical observer might even go as far to argue the Chiwars are simply being used as a battering ram, to advance unrelated causes.

I understand how emotive this issue is, for the family involved and compatriots alike, but also feel a sense of duty to inform, by pointing out what can easily be construed as poor parenting.
Like @reindeer, I also have first-hand experience of how the system works - from the vantage point of a professional. Over the years, I have counselled a not insignificant number of Nigerian families at breaking point, and therefore recognise certain unmistakable signs

Let us not make much of this case than it actually is.(over analysis) I live in the UK and aware of the issue of Child protection/relocation. I am certain that if this had been an abuse or neglect case, we would have heard about it as we do in the news daily.

Every case gets reported on the news?

Please refer to this report

There were 65,520 looked after children at 31 March 2011, an increase of 2 per cent compared to 31 March 2010.  
At 31 March 2011, 39,330 children were looked after under a care order (either an interim or full care order). This represents 60 per cent of all legal statuses of looked after children, and is an increase of 3 per cent from last year’s figure of 38,280.  The number of children looked after under a voluntary agreement is 20,430; this represents 31 per cent of all legal statuses and compares with 29 per cent of all legal statuses in 2007.
Of children looked after at 31 March 2011, 48,530 were cared for in a foster placement. This is an increase of 4 per cent on the previous year’s figure of 46,840 and an increase of 15 per cent from 2007 (42,030).  There were 7,910 looked after children cared for in residential accommodation; this includes secure units, children homes, hostels, residential schools and other residential settings. This represents a decrease of 4 per cent from 2010 and a decrease of 3 per cent from 2007.  

Source: http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001026/sfr21-2011.pdf

Outstrip:

And who said that that should be enough to remove the children. What I said is what I said. Don't read more into it. I question their judgement in general for continuing to have children in that situation

Fair enough, but until the government brings out a Chinese style one child policy, it is their basic human right as a married couple to have as many as they can care for. The council has a obligation to provide accommodation or alternatively private renting but most prefer low cost council housing.

debosky:

No council can 'offer' forms for British Citizenship - it is not a function of local government. Besides if they were eligible for citizenship, no one needs to 'offer' them forms.

Forms are widely available in the Uk and u could even pick one from a post office.

eGuerrilla

The band of supporters who have been putting documents up all over the web are, in my opinion, white liberals with a good heart and a sense of misplaced loyalty.
A more cynical observer might even go as far to argue the Chiwars are simply being used as a battering ram, to advance unrelated causes.

Hilarious!!

eGuerrilla:

Madam, I know about institutional racism too; I have maintained more than just a passing interest in this particular form of discrimination.

Although I have called matters precisely as I see it on this thread, you would note that I have also enjoined the couple in question to seek help from more appropriate agencies.
The band of supporters who have been putting documents up all over the web are, in my opinion, white liberals with a good heart and a sense of misplaced loyalty.
A more cynical observer might even go as far to argue the Chiwars are simply being used as a battering ram, to advance unrelated causes.

I understand how emotive this issue is, for the family involved and compatriots alike, but also feel a sense of duty to inform, by pointing out what can easily be construed as poor parenting.
Like @reindeer, I also have first-hand experience of how the system works - from the vantage point of a professional. Over the years, I have counselled a not insignificant number of Nigerian families at breaking point, and therefore recognise certain unmistakable signs
Every case gets reported on the news?

Please refer to this reportSource: http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001026/sfr21-2011.pdf

Thanks for clarifying this issue to the casual reader. It is quite easy to get all emotional about things like these. This isnt a race things as some will like you to believe here. kids get taken off the family all the time and (though i've never worked in East Anglia at all)all races are involved. The authorities are very touch about child protection, they will rather err on the part of caution. The sheer numbers of LAC children should make you realise the enormity of the problem.
Only high profile cases get reported on the news and mostly those ones in which the victim died. This often leads to people crucifying the authorities for doing nothing.

Infact to be honest she cannot feign any ignorance of the plan for the baby.
Right from pregnancy, any newborn that will be going into care(such as those from Drug abusers, women with alcohol or psychiatric problems, those with previous child protection/safeguarding issues with the state)is boldly designated as such and both the midwives and the paediatricians are usually aware of such children.
I really don't buy her story of ''surprise'' at people bursting in and taking her child, child protection plans are in usually in place months before birth.

how the man wan take feed dem all?

Dunno

The story doesn't add up. If the council put them in a one-bed maisonette, why have another child? That is clearly a Health and Safety issue. Then, is "Bishop" Gloria based in one location or does she travel? If the latter, does she travel alone, or with her family? Have there been periods where the children have been seen to be unsupervised?

If "abuse" means having another child in an overcrowded accommodation, then the Musas/Chiwars are guilty. People have done it for years to try to force the local council to provide them with bigger accommodation. Are the Musas/Chiwars entitled to this? Although some of Haringay's claims are questionable, I don't think we're getting the full story in this case.

This social services goes too far sometimes. It makes people lazy but then there are the people that really need it

Bliss4Lyfe:

Look the Uk is not a place were crimes are covered up and if this couple have in anyway mistreated their kids we definitely would have heard about it by now and dey will never finish talking about it.

yea but they have placed an allegation of being a sex worker upon the woman,for them to have taken the children off them means they would have had enough evidence, remember these councils often don't take any action unless there is glaring proof that the children might be affected? the climbie case,the baby p case and several others comes to mind. the allegations against the council in these cases were that they didn't do enough on time.
while to an extent i am speaking based on a realm of speculations,nevertheless the onus is on the woman and her husband to prove the allegations wrong and show conclusib=ve proof that they are capable psychologically of thing care of the children which they are yet to do, crying wolf and playing the victim won't do much to convince.

Bliss4Lyfe:

I am not keen on speculations or quick to attach credibility to any government institution because we are all too aware of institutional racism in the Uk and the height bigotry can scale in the west, nobody is naive here. 

well,with this kind of case where we are not being given enough facts to chew on especially by the  musas,we can only speak based on a certain level of speculations since we are not present there or privy to the facts of the case.
but there are measures in place to tackle institutional racism in any organisation in the whole of the uk,besides at every step in the council/govt bureaucracy there is always someone who has to okay any action,hence the reason some officials resign when something happens on their watch, in this case i believe that for such action not only to be suggested but okayed means there is probable cause to resort to such.
lets be factual here,in the uk we both know what council will send the police to seize a new born baby in the hospital from a minority ethnic woman knowing the likely backlash?
remember stepehn lawrence's case which highlighted institutional racism in the first place is still hot in the dailies this week in fact?

Bliss4Lyfe:

There is no case on this couple substantiated and hence no news or report. The only case seems to be that of the couple against the council all over the web. Do u care to explain that, Paediatrician eGuerrilla?(reindeer) 

exactly this means that we can only comment,judge whatever based on what the council have alleged the muss have not shown any reason to disprove the council's allegation.
in their whole statement,all you will find there are just conjectures,playing the race card without any real retorts concerning the allegation brought against them.
what i was expecting to get from the musas was an introduction about how everything happened,the reason why the council came to such conclusions and then disprove every single point the council raised

i heard the childrens mother is a lady of the night

I know a little about how the Family court operates in the UK so I am swallowing everything with a pinch of salt because all the proceedings are held in secret and there are usually gag orders on both parties to prevent them from discussing the issues in public. Only the parents and Haringey council really know what is going on, every other story is hearsay.
But if they were actually living in a one bed flat with five kids then I think that the living condition might have been unacceptable.

doja1:

I know a little about how the Family court operates in the UK so I am swallowing everything with a pinch of salt because all the proceedings are held in secret and there are usually gag orders on both parties to prevent them from discussing the issues in public. Only the parents and Haringey council really know what is going on, every other story is hearsay.
But if they were actually living in a one bed flat with five kids then I think that the living condition might have been unacceptable.

They are held in secret to protect both the alleged victim and the alleged perpetrators. If an allegation comes up against you, will you want it to be in the press before a conlusion is reached?

you sound like am supporting either side, was only explaining how the system works.  Personally I don't believe the council is deliberating trying to keep the parents from the kids without reason. I have complained on various sites about the posting of the family pictures and naming them. I am too educated  not to know why the sittings are held in private.

What are they doing in the UK?

i dont know the facts of this case but imo i think the best option right now is to allow the kids to return to nigeria.

the oldest one's whereabouts are currently unknown and she hasnt been seen for almost a year.

lord have mercy.

the family should just withdraw all suits all go into prayer and fasting instead.

not quite sure what's going on.