plaetton:

@Enigma.
I do understand the definition of objective morality.
I have also stated that morality is fluid. Infact, I have used the example you cited above many times in the past.
I am not contradicting myself.
You guys seem to be confused and are shifting the goal post to suit yourselves.
My point is simple, Morality, objective or otherwise, is not a neither a product of nor an exlusive  domain of theology.

Enigma:

^^ I might have guessed you simply can't lift yourself to the necessary level for both understanding and objectivity/honesty.

Who introduced "God" into this discussion?

Enigma:

Maybe you don't understand the topic or maybe you are just too inured to your un-objective way of thinking.

The OP says the idea of "evil" means there is no God. Well, the question to him (and to you if you are capable) is: what is the basis for regarding something as "evil" or "good" in the first place and he/you must define the "God" that is disproved by the existence of evil. We simply put the theistic point to him, that you cannot establish "good" or "evil" objectively unless you start with a premise that recognises God, Simples.

Look, for you to get going, you have to define "God", "good", and "evil". As I said before, if you can't do that you are just wasting everyone's time. 

Enigma:

Is female circumcision "good" or "evil" and what makes it either?

mazaje:

The sophist songs they keep singing to themselves all the time

. . . You did. . . .

The presence of Evil lays the biggest doubt of the existence of an OMNIBENEVOLENT God. If there is an all good being, who in his pursuits CHOOSES good despite his ability to do bad, why is there evil? If he has elected none? If he is all perfect?

Enigma:


Daiquiri

No it wasn't me; but the sad news quite touched me too rather.  

Enigma:

Post above is just one example of why I don't bother with your posts.

Here is the opening post.

Any person of intelligence and honesty can see who introduced "God" into the discussion and associated him with evil ---- thus with morality. Simples. Of course, I will revert to simply ignoring your nonsense.

Daiquiri:

@Enigma

Thanks for the prompt reply

OK then. Must have been another Enigma then

42, that's a bit too young to die and suddenly too just like that.

Wales was looking promising since he took over  

There are one or two theories on the net on why he topped himself though . . .

Pray his wife and family are strong

PS: You're doing a great work. Mind you sinful evil, permitted evil etc are at your disposal too

Enigma:

Is female circumcision "good" or "evil" and what makes it either?

Thelstan:

You must be kidding! There are recently discovered examples of such colonies and societies in Papua, Uganda and other places. And there may be yet undiscovered ones as well. I see how you have evaded the question by recoursing to non-existence of such a society. The point is that you are relying entirely on a fallible society to define your own evaluation of good and evil.
Wait, I don't understand this. Diseases, death, abortion and self-defence are instances of evil?  

mazaje:

And any one with intelligence will also see the point plaetton was making. . .

Enigma:

Is female circumcision "good" or "evil" and what makes it either?

Kay 17:

Yes, cos life is terminated, a potential is lost. And its tragic. Evil is an imperfection, a conflict with a system. Also i hate repeating myself too often. Tb has defined God, i ve defined evil and good. While u and enigma didnt read them.

Kay 17:

Yes, cos life is terminated, a potential is lost. And its tragic. Evil is an imperfection, a conflict with a system. Also i hate repeating myself too often. Tb has defined God, i ve defined evil and good. While u and enigma didnt read them.

plaetton:

And ofcourse ,you are the only one who truly understands. That's what you tell yourself.
Bravo to you.

Majzaje is aguing against your god-centered objective morality .
I have already made my case for objective morality. Once any idea becomes god-centered, it takes  convoluted pathways to validate itself.

[Male circumcision] reduces the risk for HIV, chancroid, syphilis, neonatal urinary tract infection, penile and cervical cancers, and possibly herpes simplex virus II.[4-6] Current evidence suggests that some cells found in the male foreskin are especially vulnerable to infection with HIV,[7] and that routine circumcision of all men in Africa, for instance, could prevent 2 million new HIV infections and avert 300,000 deaths over the next 10 years.[8-10] After 20 years, 3.7 million new HIV infections would be prevented and 2.7 million deaths averted.[10]

Immediate complications of FGC include severe pain, cellulitis, sepsis, urinary retention, hemorrhage, shock, and even death. Long-term complications, seen predominantly in women who have undergone type III procedures, include cysts, abscesses, keloids, recurrent infections, dyspareunia, and dysmenorrhea due to the infibulated scar overlying the vaginal introitus.[21,22] Neuromas, which can cause sharp, excruciating pain, are rare. Decreased sexual responsiveness is understandably common, and some women suffer infertility, but there is no increased risk for sexually transmitted infections.[21,25]

Women with FGC are significantly more likely than those without FGC to have adverse obstetrical outcomes, including prolonged or obstructed labor, obstetric fistulas, caesarean section, postpartum hemorrhage, extended maternal hospital stay, infant resuscitation, stillbirth or early neonatal death, and low birthweight.[19,26] Risks are higher with more extensive FGC. FGC leads to an extra 1-2 perinatal deaths per 100 deliveries, likely secondary to unattended or inappropriately treated obstructed labor caused by vulvar scarring.[19,23] Fetal complications are rarely seen in developed nations.[15]

Psychiatric sequelae of FGC include shame, fear, depression, posttraumatic stress disorder, and memory problems.[21,27] Male complications resulting from FGC include difficulty in penetration, wounds and infections on the penis, and psychological problems.[28]

plaetton:

And ofcourse ,you are the only one who truly understands. That's what you tell yourself.
Bravo to you.

Mazaje is aguing against your god-centered objective morality .
I have already made my case for objective morality. Once any idea becomes god-centered, it takes  convoluted pathways to validate itself.

The presence of Evil lays the biggest doubt of the existence of an OMNIBENEVOLENT God. If there is an all good being, who in his pursuits CHOOSES good despite his ability to do bad, why is there evil? If he has elected none? If he is all perfect?

plaetton:

@Thelstan:
It is interesting that you are invoking medical science, and not god ,as the definer of objective morality for this particular issue of female Core circumcision .

Enigma:

@ Thelstan

I think we might need another thread to discuss the medical aspects; however, I am actually familiar with that site that you posted; I will say "health risk" is one thing and the real statistics are another. I will also note that western opposition to it are truly largely cultural and couched in human rights terms. But as i said --- another thread, another time.

Kay 17:

@thelstan

i support abortion, but like selfdefense, life is lost. So its unfortunate.

If there is an omnibenevolence God, why is there evil in his creation.

Thelstan:

I have a problem with people who argue on threads like this and will start gallivanting when they are shown to have gaffed, it has happened often on this thread already. No one can be right all the time. Let's wait and see what mazaje and plaetton will return to say concerning their indicated solecism about a God-centered objective morality.

mazaje:

Sure no one can be right all the time, enigma implied that morality comes from God and all I have said is that it is false since all moral laws and codes of conduct can be show very clearly to be created by humans ALL the time in an evolving and continuous manner. . . .God centered morality poses a problem to God believers since God believers believe in different Gods hold different moral laws and codes of conduct. . . .