The following is the last interview Dim
Odumegwu Ojukwu ever granted to any
newspaper. Excerpts…
It may be difficult to determine which of these
two Dim Odumegwu Ojukwu loves most:
Ndigbo or his wife Bianca? If you speak with
Ojukwu, you immediately come away with the
impression of a man married, as it were, to both.
However, with age taking its toll on the Igbo icon
[he is in his late 70s], Bianca, his ageless wife, is
like the guardian angel attending to his needs.
That was why she stayed home on the appointed
day for an interview with Daily Sun. She stood by
her husband all through the interview to ensure
that “he did not say anything volatile” and that he
was “frugal” with his answers.
Ojukwu would naturally detest any bid to “cage”
him. At a point he got angry and called off the
interaction. Ironically, it took Bianca’s intervention
to get him back on the “hot seat”. He then fielded
questions within the ground rules, namely: that
you do not drill him for more than an hour, and
that you do not insist on all your questions being
answered.
Age may have slowed him, but not his
articulation and unflinching consistency over his
beliefs.
Forty years after, Ikemba still believes he was
right to have declared a war in defence of the
Igbo people, but would flatly refuse to talk about
the war. He believes that Ibrahim Badamasi
Babangida has a ‘sense of humour’ and ‘may
have something to offer’ should he decide to
return to the seat of power at the Presidency. The
interview is vintage Dim Chukwuemeka
Odumegwu Ojukwu.
Your Excellency, why did you choose to pursue a
career in the military?
I must confess you caught me pants down there,
completely off guard. But I thought everybody
knows why I went into the Army. I joined the
Army to serve the nation. I also joined the Army
because I liked the military. I also joined to prove
a point to myself, the point being that, as many
people said and thought, at that time, that I was
not [speaking in Igbo] Onye aba aba nna
[meaning a jolly good fellow spoilt by wealth]. I
wanted to make that point to myself first and
then to others. I needed to show that whatever
needed to be done in my country, I would do
my own part. I joined the Nigerian Army and I
am proud to say that I continued to serve to the
rank of General. I don’t know how many of us
can boast of that. I am very proud of that. I have
been seen in action in the barracks. I have been
seen in war. That’s it.
Muammar Gaddafi had on two occasions in one
month called for the splitting of Nigeria. The
Senate president described him as a mad man.
What’s your take?
No, I would not go as far as calling him a mad
man. He is a leader of his people and I respect
that fact. If you look through my entire career,
you would find that even with a country as close
to us as Ghana, at no point have I suggested
what type of government they should have,
because it is not my business. Having said that, it
is clear that whatever Gaddafi thinks, he has
every right to his thoughts, but as a political
leader, he should note that he has no right to
decide for Nigeria what Nigeria should do. So, I
say to him, my friend Gaddafi, please shut up.
Forty years after the civil war, would you say the
circumstances that led you to draw a line of
defence for your people have abated?
I hesitate to answer that question, because I don’t
like to be boxed into a corner. Quite a lot of the
issues have been raised over the years. But
whether they have abated, I would say yes, to a
certain extent. However, that we are today still
talking about the safety of our citizens is really
sad. What are our leaders doing and why is our
society so fragile? By now Nigeria should have
grown beyond all these sectarian crisis and
insecurity, which now makes people scared of
travelling to or going to live in some parts of the
country. I feel we should have gone far beyond
that. But, more than anything, I want to make
this very clear, namely: that it is for this kind of
things that we have leaders. I call upon the
leaders to guarantee the safety of our people. I
hope I have made myself clear. Let me add here
that I also speak as a General.
The Anambra State election has come and gone.
One of the remarkable things about that election
is that you stuck out your neck and your
reputation for Governor Peter Obi. What did you
see in him?
Every one is already talking about the outcome of
that election. I was very proud of the campaign
and I am still very proud that I made a call and
despite all the rough things people say about
Ndigbo, it appears very clearly that Ndigbo
listened to what I said. And by that they
obviously accepted me as their leader. They acted
in accordance with my wishes. I am very proud
of this. You are Igbo and you know how difficult
it is to get Ndigbo together to accept one person.
I am proud that I told them this was my last wish
and they responded. But then, don’t laugh at the
next thing I am about to say, but I am hoping
that Ndigbo will still be available to do other ‘last
wishes’ that I would have [general laughter], you
understand?
I do, sir.
Yes, because I am still very much around and I
will ask for more last wishes [more laughter].
You have not talked about Peter Obi.
Oh yes, Peter Obi. To start with, I like his
modesty. No doubt about that. He is one leader
who does not come here to see me as though he
was attacking a fortress. He is very modest.
Whenever we have to talk, he comes as Peter. He
does not bring half a brigade as entourage as
others would do. You notice also that whenever
he talks he keeps to the point and does not
elongate matters unnecessarily. I like Peter and I
hope I would be more useful to him in his career.
The truth, however, and Peter can claim this
more than everyone else, is that while I can say
that I have helped him in his career, he can also
stand up and say he has also helped me in my
own career. You can see there is some mutuality
in our interaction. But having said all these, my
advice for him is that he should try to be more of
a politician than a businessman.
The country has waited 40 years to read your
war memoirs and it has not come. Will it ever
come?
Yes, it will come. From time to time I tell myself
that I am just starting. Again, it is this question of
the last wish. I say it is the last wish, but
somehow the Almighty says no it cannot be the
last wish yet. War memoirs you call it, well, it will
come out in the course of my own memoirs.
When you say war memoirs, I tell you straight
away that I do not want to be remembered
necessarily as a soldier. I want to be remembered
as a patriot. I will write and I will explain whatever
needs to be explained about the war time. I will
do that because I want the truth to be available.
What time would that be?
[Long pause, then his wife Bianca says] He had
only just started. So, it would be difficult to say
when that would be. [Another long pause, then
Ojukwu says] What I find amusing is that I am
being asked to determine when what I have
described as my final act would be. I have
already said to you that there will be many other
final acts and I pray to God that it would be so.
But one thing I would tell you is that I made a
promise to my wife, and you know how much I
love her, I promised her that I would not leave
her without my own testament.
So, it is sure to come?
Yes. It is coming.
What’s your comment on Goodluck Jonathan’s
emergence as Acting President, and do you think
he should run for the 2011 election?
Has there been any problem over his emergence?
As far as I am concerned, he is a Nigerian citizen,
and the most prominent one at that, for now. If
he wants to continue, then he should run for
election next year. It is not a North and South
thing, and I noted that he is a Nigerian and he is
free to run and should run if he wants to continue
to be in charge of the country. From that point of
view, yes, he can run for as long as the
Constitution of Nigeria permits him.
The papers reported that you are backing Iwu’s
reappointment and that you have endorsed his
return as INEC boss, is it true?
Absolute nonsense! Why should I back him? He
did a good job and I am proud that I stood up to
say yes, you have done well. I will do that for
any Nigerian who has done well, not only
because he is an Igbo son who is producing for
Nigeria a good result, which the whole world
applauds. Iwu did a good job in Nigeria and
Anambra, as far as I am concerned. People
making comments about good elections are not
just talking about Anambra; for a long time
people have wondered whether we are capable
of conducting elections. We have shown that we
are capable of conducting elections and
producing results the whole world will look at
and acknowledge. We have successfully had a
civilian to civilian hand-over. That is certainly a
plus.
Should he be reappointed?
Oh, come off it. I am not his employer. The
question of his reappointment is between himself
and his employer, why should I dabble into his
job? People said when he visited the other day
that he asked for and got my support. No such
thing happened. Let me use this opportunity to
put it clearly that he came to visit me on his way
to Abia where he had a job to conclude. At no
time during the interaction on his visit did he seek
my support, nor did I give to him the said
support for elongating his tenure in INEC or for
seeking another mandate. As I said in the opening
of my response, that is a matter between him
and his employer, which in this case, is the
Federal Government. I was not even consulted
when he was appointed, so how can I now be
instrumental to his reappointment?
Why were you unable to win election into the
Senate in 1983 even when the Igbo nation stood
still on your return from exile in 1982, what
happened?
It may be that the people did not want me. But
there are records of what happened. And I don’t
go beyond that actually because I felt that
whatever happened to me then was a temporary
set back. I want you to always remember that
most leaders are not really idols where they
come from. Anything could have gone wrong.
One thing I have suffered in this sense is the fact
that Ndigbo would seem not just happy that I am
there, but they would like to claim every inch of
my skin as theirs and they would like to control
every bit of my blood, too. It is natural.
In fact, instead of just rejoicing that I am useful to
them, they seem to have cast themselves in a tug
of war with Nigeria, whether Nigeria has a greater
pull on me or they. You will always find that even
in Nnewi I am at once their most popular son, yet
I know that Nnewi people feel they have been
cheated by the rest of Nigeria that did not father
me, and are coming out now to claim a lot of
me. These petty conflicts you can find anywhere.
But let me put it very clearly, I have said this
before and I will continue to say it: I came into
politics for the Igbo cause. I came in to do what I
can to rescue Ndigbo. I shall continue to do so
and my focus remains that entity called Igbo.
That’s all about that.
If you have the opportunity to present yourself
for the Presidency, would you do that?
[Long pause, then Bianca says] No.
You won’t allow him?
Binca: No.
Ojukwu: you heard her.
Yes.
That’s my answer.
You said in the past that you will not condemn
MASSOB, neither would you support them, but
right now their leader, Uwazurike, is being held…
[Cuts in] Most unjustly. Uwazurike, like anybody
else, must have made mistakes, though I have
not seen any yet, but why should he be detained
for three months? What is worse is that even in
court his accusers do not bring him forward to
answer to the charges against him. I don’t want
to be a scare-monger, but really, to be honest
with you, I am not sure he is still alive. It is a
terrible thing for an Igbo man to disappear like
that before our very eyes. No, the Igbo race
certainly has it as a bad mark against the Federal
Government that locked him up for three
months. We demand, I will demand on their
behalf that we be told in clear terms where
Uwazurike is.
Where is he, why does he not attend court when
he is under the care of the Federal Government in
prison and in circumstances where the
government want him to answer to charges
preferred against him? Where is he? I have asked
this question and I say to the Federal Government
that I shall continue to ask; find my brother
Uwazurike, tell me where he is. If what you say
about him is right, I would feel better if he were
permitted to come out and answer to your
charges. It’s only fair. Keeping him away is
culturally an abomination.
How can a man just disappear and we cannot
give him the rightful honours he deserves as a
human being under our culture? Secondly, if you
think as a government that he has committed
certain offences, I now ask the government, has
his wife committed the same offence? Why must
his relations be punished? Bring him out. Tell us
where he is, and above all, give the courts the
opportunity of pronouncing him guilty or not. I
hope I have made myself clear. Ralph Uwazurike
cannot just disappear into thin air. Each time they
come to court to say they have adjourned for
one reason or the other, yet the man is in
custody of the government that is adjourning.
That is not right. It is this sort of thing that makes
me often wonder whether it is not part of the
suffering of Ndigbo, because I can’t see any other
tribe or any other group being handled in this off-
hand manner. If he has done wrong, let him go
to court. Try him and let us hear the verdict.
Yes. But, it is for these kinds of things that Gaddafi
called for the country to be split if certain people
are going to be treated like second class citizens in
their own country, isn’t it?
If I had said what Gaddafi said, I would stand by
it. But I did not. And we have not reached a stage
where we can now hire Gaddafi to come and be
our advocate. He has his own problems. Please,
Gaddafi, don’t mix your problems with ours and
if you feel you have to talk, come and talk to me.
I am the leader of Ndigbo. The name Gaddafi
does not appear in our lexicography.
Biafrans refined oil during the war and thus had
fuel they used. Forty years after Nigeria is
importing fuel. How does that make you feel?
It makes me feel awful and there are many things
that make me feel awful. I don’t expect every
problem to be solved at the same time, but there
are many things we could do better than we are
doing now. These things were done, but the
people who did them should come out and be
counted. I have become notorious for waving the
ethnic flag, but I am always proud of the
opportunity because what I am after is equity for
all citizens of the block I serve.
In 1966 when Nigeria experienced the first military
intervention, did you think the circumstances at
that time warranted a coup?
You will be surprised. As junior officers in the
Army, practically every thing that happened got
us thinking of the possibility of a coup de tat. So,
when you ask do I think that circumstances
warranted the coup, my answer is yes. As an
Army officer, I thought Nigeria needed a shake-
up at that time.
Do you think you were right to have declared a
war in defence of Ndigbo in 1967, was it the right
thing to do at that time?
Of course, I was right. Even now, I still believe I
was right and I will even go further to say that if I
am found exactly the same situation again, I
would wish that I have the courage to be as right
as I was then. Are you with me?
I am with you, sir. But some people did not think
you were right even at that time and I understand
that they advised you to use diplomacy rather
than war. I wouldn’t know whether looking back
you would say they were correct?
There is no situation you wouldn’t have some
supporting and others not supporting. They have
their right to support or not to support. But I
should warn you that if you think you are leading
me into a situation where I would review the
war, I think it is better for you to recognise that
before you stands a brick wall.
Why wouldn’t you want to talk about it?
[Flares up, eyes popping] Because I don’t want to.
Ok. Let’s go back to the beginning. You were said
to be a pampered child. How true?
[Turns to Bianca] Darling, was I a pampered
child?
Bianca: Well, I always tell you when you throw
tantrums that we need to go and wake up your
mother from the dead so she can come and take
better care of you, because she may have spoilt
you. Yes, you are a pampered child.
Ojukwu: My wife thinks I was pampered.
Was it true that as a child you lacked nothing as a
young growing boy?
That’s how I saw it, but others might have seen it
differently. But I certainly had everything that was
necessary. I went to the best of schools, CMS
Grammar School, Kings College, Lincoln College,
Oxford, and so on. Yes, my father did the best he
could to bring me up and I always say, and it
doesn’t take anything off me at all, that the
product which he finally got justified his efforts.
People generally say Ojukwu is a stubborn
person. How do you see yourself?
I hope I remain stubborn. If this is stubbornness,
yes. But the important thing is to get things right.
If you look around in Nigeria, we tend to sweep
things so much under the carpet only to come
back and start picking them bit by bit. If the
verdict is that I am stubborn, then I draw
comfort from the fact that Winston Churchill was
stubborn, Napoleon was stubborn. I draw
consolation that today Mandela is stubborn. All
around me the names that keep coming up are
those of very stubborn people. If I am stubborn,
then there is just one point I want to make about
stubbornness, and it is this: I believe I am
stubborn for the right reasons.
Your fellow soldiers, Olusegun Obasanjo,
Muhammadu Buhari, IBB, have all had
opportunities of leading this country at one time
or the other. Now, some of them want to offer
themselves again for the same position. People
have said that soldiers are not really good
administrators, should they be allowed to come
back?
I don’t join the group that would casually say that
soldiers are not good administrators, because I
know that in the Army you are trained to
administer. I know that in the Army you find
great administrators who lead men to make the
highest sacrifice known to this world. Soldiers are
very good administrators. In fact, you cannot be
a good soldier if are not a good administrator,
because I know that in the Army you are trained
to administer. I know that in the Army you find
great administrators. It is only in the Army you
would take a man and administer all his needs
until his death. That is true administration.
Obasanjo ruled for eight years…
Did he?
Yes. He was there for two terms. Could you
assess his tenure?
[Long pause] you are asking for trouble, but I
would not succumb. Let other people decide
whether he did well?
Why would you not want to talk about
Obasanjo’s regime?
[Voice rising] Because he is too much of a
colleague of mine, I do not want to get into this
personal conflict.
No sir, it is not personal.
[Flares up] I am talking about Obasanjo, who you
want me to talk about.
Yes, but we are talking about his regime, not his
person.
Well, his regime and himself are the same, and I
ask you to shut up.
Muhammadu Buhari wants to return as Head of
State, do you agree?
Does he?
Yes.
Well, he has not told me. When I see him next
time I shall ask him.
There is also IBB who ruled for eight years and
now wants to return to office. What do you
think?
I don’t know that he wants to come back. But
Babangida happens to be the one I know a little
bit about. If for nothing else, I like his sense of
humour and I believe that a man endowed with
such openness might have something to offer.
You think if he wants to come back he is
welcome?
Oh yes, why not? In fact, anybody who wants to
have a shot at the Presidency is welcome,
provided they go the right way. Don’t come back
to office through the wrong way such as a coup
de’tat, then I will tell you that you are cheating.
But if you are going to go through the elections,
campaigns, and get people to vote for you and
they say you are the man, then that’s okay by
me.
After eight years, IBB and others who had had a
shot before can come back if they wish?
I would even go further to say that if 16 years
were possible, provided the man is healthy and
his senses are still intact and his coordination still
alright then, he should offer himself for the job,
and if the people want him, so be it.
What are your general views on the recent
ministerial nominees by Acting President
Goodluck Jonathan?
Generally speaking, my attitude to the names is
that there is too much recycling going on and I
believe it is not a good thing to recycle people
over and over again. Most of the problems that
persist in Nigeria derive from this tendency to
recycle. There are many people in Nigeria and my
advice is that the authorities should look deeper
and look round. They will find the men and
women who can do the job.
What do you hope to see in next year’s elections?
We know the constitution. People should go
through it and make sure they present
themselves the best way. What do I hope to see?
I have indicated, for example, that if INEC does
what it did in Anambra recently then I look
forward to their taking charge again. But if they
cannot, then the leadership should move aside.
They have done their bit. That’s the way I see it. I
would like to see a transparent election. Now,
don’t go and slay me on the pages of your
newspaper, but I would also want to see an Igbo
man emerging winner of that election.
Do you think that the Igbo are ready to take the
Presidency?
Why not?
If they are going to take it, which party would
provide the platform?
I must congratulate you for being persistent.
Mark you, I did not say stubborn. What I say is
let them have their chance. That’s all. I am certain
they would be up to the task provided nobody
puts obstacles on their way.
Will your party, which at the moment is not
doing too well, work hard enough to be that
coveted platform?
If they do not work hard enough, it would not be
for my lack of trying. I will keep pushing that they
work hard enough and produce what I expect.
People believe the party Ojukwu leads should
have been the leading party in the South East. But
that has not happened, why?
Is that what people think? Then, I say Amen.
But that has not happened, why?
Let’s wait till 2011 then.