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| Why Modern-day Apostles And Prophets Are Unscriptural by sagenaija: 10:42pm On Jun 11 |
Why Modern-Day Apostles and Prophets Are Unscriptural (Exposing how Today's Apostles and Prophets Contradict Scripture) In recent years, there has been a burgeoning movement within certain Christian circles emphasizing the roles of "prophets" and "apostles" in contemporary church life. This "prophetic" and "apostolic" craze suggests that these roles, akin to their New Testament counterparts, are being restored to guide and direct the modern church. While proponents argue that these offices are vital for the church’s spiritual growth and alignment with divine will, a closer examination of the Scriptures reveals several issues with this perspective. The Scriptural Basis for Apostles and Prophets In the New Testament, apostles and prophets played foundational roles in the early church. The apostles were those directly chosen by Jesus (Mark 3:13-19, Acts 1:21-26) or recognized as such by other apostles (e.g., Paul in Romans 1:1). Their primary task was to witness Christ’s resurrection (Acts 1:22) and lay the church's doctrinal foundation (Ephesians 2:20). Prophets, on the other hand, were individuals who received direct revelation from God to guide the church (Acts 11:27-28, 21:10-11). Apostolic Office and Succession One of the primary arguments against the contemporary apostolic movement is that the office of the apostle was unique to the early church. According to Acts 1:21-22, an apostle had to have been a witness to Jesus’ ministry and resurrection. Paul, who considered himself an apostle “abnormally born” (1 Corinthians 15:8 ), met the risen Christ in a direct and extraordinary encounter. No current claimant can meet these criteria, making the establishment of modern-day apostles unscriptural. Furthermore, Ephesians 2:20 describes the apostles and prophets as the foundation of the church, with Jesus as the cornerstone. Once a foundation is laid, it is not continually rebuilt; it is established once to support the subsequent structure. Therefore, the foundational nature of the apostolic and prophetic offices suggests their non-replicability in the contemporary church. The Cessation of Prophetic Revelation The role of prophets in the New Testament involved receiving and conveying direct revelation from God. Hebrews 1:1-2 states that God, who previously spoke through prophets, has now spoken through His Son, Jesus Christ. This shift underscores the sufficiency and finality of Christ’s revelation, further emphasized by the closing of the biblical canon. Revelation 22:18-19 warns against adding to or subtracting from the words of prophecy in the Bible, indicating the completion of divine revelation. Paul also suggests in 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 that prophecies will cease when “the perfect comes.” While interpretations of “the perfect” vary, many scholars argue it refers to the completion of God’s revelation in Scripture. Thus, the cessationist view holds that once the apostolic foundation was laid and the New Testament canon completed, the need for prophetic revelations diminished. Practical and Theological Concerns Beyond scriptural arguments, the practical outworking of the modern prophetic and apostolic movements raises concerns. Often, these movements rely on subjective experiences and personal revelations that can lead to doctrinal error and division. The New Testament emphasizes discernment and testing of spirits (1 John 4:1), suggesting an inherent risk in claims of new revelations. Historically, many movements claiming prophetic or apostolic authority have deviated significantly from orthodox Christian doctrine, leading to sectarianism and even cult-like behaviors. These movements can undermine the authority of Scripture, placing experiential revelations on par with or above the biblical text. The Sufficiency of Scripture One of the central tenets of Scripture is the sufficiency of Scripture, encapsulated in the doctrine of sola scriptura. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 affirms that all Scripture is God-breathed and sufficient for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. This sufficiency implies that the Bible contains all necessary guidance for faith and practice, negating the need for additional prophetic or apostolic revelation. The New Testament epistles, written to guide early churches, contain comprehensive instructions on church governance, doctrine, and Christian living. If the early church, in its formative and turbulent period, found Scripture sufficient for guidance, how much more should the contemporary church rely on the completed canon? The Role of Prophecy and Apostles Today While the specific offices of apostle and prophet, as described in the New Testament, are not seen as continuing, this does not mean God is no longer at work through His people. The Holy Spirit continues to guide, convict, and empower believers for ministry (John 14:26, Acts 1:8 ). The spiritual gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 include prophecy in the sense of forth-telling or proclaiming God’s truth, which is distinct from the foundational, revelatory prophecy of the early church. Likewise, the term “apostle” can be understood in a broader sense as “one who is sent” (from the Greek apostolos). In this sense, missionaries and church planters act as apostolic figures, spreading the gospel and establishing new communities of believers. However, these roles do not carry the same authoritative, foundational function as the original apostles. Conclusion The contemporary craze surrounding prophetic and apostolic movements often lacks a robust scriptural foundation. The roles of apostles and prophets, as described in the New Testament, were unique to the early church's formative period and served a foundational purpose that does not require repetition. The sufficiency of Scripture, the closure of the canon, and the historical misuse of claimed apostolic and prophetic authority caution against embracing these modern movements. Instead, Christians are called to uphold the completed revelation of Scripture, relying on its sufficiency for all matters of faith and practice, and to exercise discernment in all claims of new spiritual authority. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Rev. 2:29). Look at what the Bible says: The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Revelation 21:14. Does the highlighted speak to you? The twelve! The twelve! The twelve! What happened to the rest of those who call themselves “Apostles”? |
| Re: Why Modern-day Apostles And Prophets Are Unscriptural by sagenaija: 9:49pm On Jun 12 |
What we see in Scripture is that true prophets spoke out to majorly redirect God's people when they go astray from God's laws. They were not people who were "consulted" to give a peep into individuals future lives or event unless they fell in line with God's larger plan. What we find today are so-called prophets who think what food to eat or drink to take is what matters most. God's revealed word means little or nothing to them. Today's "prophets" seek popularity. They claim a 'new word' has come from God even when such 'word' contradict and contravene clear teachings of the Bible. they are either self-appointed or have the title "conferred" on them by other self-appointed persons like themselves. It is clear from the Bible that a prophet must be accurate 100% of the time to actually be a prophet. How many of today's "prophets" do you know who meet this scriptural standard? “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son…” (Hebrews 1:1) |
| Re: Why Modern-day Apostles And Prophets Are Unscriptural by achorladey: 10:58am On Jun 13 |
The noun prophets and apostles versus the verb prophets and apostles  |
| Re: Why Modern-day Apostles And Prophets Are Unscriptural by SeraphEl: 2:17pm On Jun 13 |
Cessation is a demonic doctrine you are warned of. It is a tool of the devil to cripple church of it’s effectiveness along with producing fakes just as satan produces false teachers, pastors. If no more apostles and prophets, THEN, no more teachers, pastors and evangelists. Simple. Let us do away with ALL of them. Ephesians 4:11-17 lists 5 various offices for church. You cannot remove 2 of them, you hear? It’s like chopping off head and neck of a body and leave the body headless, neckless and bleeding out with just chest, abdomen and limbs. Are you well at all?! Bible tells us why they are given: equipping church, perfecting, extorting church. It tells you when it ceases: when we come to the perfect ONE; Christ when returns HE returns. Now, bear with me per logic and common sense, let us reason: Is Church still here? Yes. Is church immature, imperfect and needing perfecting, and exhorting and maturing!? Yes. Is Christ returned? No. Ergo: apostles, prophets, teachers, shepherds and evangelists will continue until Christ the perfect returns. |
| Re: Why Modern-day Apostles And Prophets Are Unscriptural by SeraphEl: 2:37pm On Jun 13 |
I agree that todays apostles, prophets (just like pastors) are self appointed, thrive on popularity, and money it brings. Plus, most of them do not understand what biblical prophets are or how they function. However, with regards to accuracy, it is a common misunderstanding and erroneous to think prophets has to be 100%. You will be shocked to learn that most biblical prophesy were actually what is termed "conditional". That is, the prophesy coming to pass is dependent on people's response to the message. If judgement is pronounced and people repent, then the LORD relents of punishment. IF blessings are proclaimed and people disobey, the LORD also relents of blessings. The classic case of conditional prophesy is Jonah and Nineveh. Another great general example is the nation of Israel. Ancient Israel was given great prophesies about dwelling and prospering n the land of Israel; but the prophesies were dependent on them keeping the Law of Moses. They did not and they were subsequently cast out of it till today. But you are right. The core function of biblical prophets were to preach the message of repentance and return to the Law of the LORD. Plus proclaiming judgements and blessings. More often true prophets' messages were negative because humans by nature are sinful, disobedient and rebellious. Thus, the LORD matched HIS prophesies of judgments with humanity's depravity. Also according to Deut 13, 18: a false character can indeed prophesy 100% and still be false. Satan has knowledge. Also, the LORD can give true words to false characters: check out Balaam in bible; a false prophet who the LORD used to speak truth about Israel and the coming Messiah. That is why scripture warns concerning prophesies: 1. test the spirit behind the prophesy/prophet; 2. judge by the fruits; 3. judge the words of prophesy rather than the person. Word to the wise. The things of the Spirit and the supernatural aren't as black and white as Christians like to think. That is why gift of discernment, wisdom is so critical in the body of Christ, especially in these last days. sagenaija: |
| Re: Why Modern-day Apostles And Prophets Are Unscriptural by sagenaija: 9:36pm On Jun 13 |
SeraphEl: On 100% accuracy: A prophet hears from whom? From God. So what the prophet is to do is SIMPLY restate what he heard from God. Now, what should bring obscurity in this? Let’s take an example: God told Moses to tell Pharaoh, “Let my people go.” What was expected of Moses when he got to Pharaoh? To simply restate what God had asked him to tell Pharaoh. On apostles’ and prophets’ position: Only the apostles and prophets are said to be responsible for the foundation of the church. NONE of the other offices is said to be so – Ephesians 2:20, “…. built on the FOUNDATION of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.” Once a foundation is laid, does it need re-laying? On conditional promises, etc.: Where a biblical prophecy is CONDITIONAL, it will be clearly stated. Unconditional promises and prophecies of God about Israel that are not yet fulfilled will still be fulfilled. This is because God is NOT through with Israel. The book of Romans makes that very clear. On “Things of the Spirit”, “The supernatural”: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” When the Christian way of life is seen as esoteric, when the Scripture is no longer seen as clear or the objective basis to run the Christian’s spiritual life, then error becomes inevitable, as personal interpretations and subjective experiences replace the authoritative guidance of the Bible. This leads to a drift from the core tenets of the faith, creating a landscape ripe for confusion and doctrinal deviations. |
| Re: Why Modern-day Apostles And Prophets Are Unscriptural by MaxInDHouse(m): 9:42pm On Jun 13 |
Hmmmmmmmm so where do the real disciples of Christ gather? Since all those claiming Christians today follow either Prophet, Apostle or Pastor this and that!  |
| Re: Why Modern-day Apostles And Prophets Are Unscriptural by SeraphEl: 10:33pm On Jun 13 |
1. Like I said, many if not most prophesies are conditional. I did not say ALL of them were. The point of prophesy was to give people a chance to return, change and make amends. NOT necessarily fore telling or predicting random future. So, when the LORD sent Moses to Pharaoh, the mission was fixed. Mind you, it took 400+ years for the LORD to 'decide' on freeing Israel from Egypt. Who know why it took so long? Perhaps HE was waiting on some 'conditions'. 2. Ephesians 2:20: yes, church is built on foundation of apostles and prophets. Finish the chapter tho. The church is STILL being built and fitted together for a temple of the LORD in whom we are built together for habitation of the LORD (vs 21-22). But, answer me this: is the church finished being built? Because if you say so, that would be like saying the church is perfect. The Church is still here, still being built. Ergo: church will still need apostles and prophets. The foundation has being laid, but the building is NOT finished. No one can lay another foundation, but we can continue to build upon it. Ephesians 4 and 1 Cor 13 tells us when we no longer need these offices to build the church- when Christ returns. 3. Conditional prophesies are rarely stated. See examples below. Actually, conditional aspect of prophesies are implied NOT stated. Read the first few sentence of the story of Nineveh. When the LORD initially gave message to Jonah, HE did not specify the condition. That is why when Jonah learnt the prophesy was conditional seeing GOD did not destroy them because they repented, Jonah was mad. See other examples of non stated conditional prophesy below. The remnant of Israel to be saved in the end times is because of the covenant GOD made with their forefathers. They broke HIS covenant and HE kicked them out. So, for now, true Isrealites are not living in the land of Israel because the prophesy was conditional. The initial prophesy given dealt with their immediate future, but that the ultimate re-gathering happens when they recognize the messiah and are saved. THIS is the condition that will be met as Paul speaks of in ALL Israel shall be saved. Key word: SAVED. Being saved is then the condition that GOD will re-gather them along with gentile believers. 4. Yes, bible is good for correction, reproof and teaching. However, you cannot enclose GOD in a collection of 66 books that reveals only .1% of GOD. You cannot trap GOD in a book lest you have created an idol and a god of your own making and understanding. HE is the creator of heaven and earth. HE can speak outside the bible anyway, anyhow and whenever. I am not saying open yourself up to esoteric knowledge, gnostic knowledge and the like. Certainly, people can drift into heresies and deviate from doctrinal purity and truths. Still thou, what I am saying, "HIS ways are higher, HIS thoughts higher". HE is beyond and above a collection of ancient books. One simply cannot and must not enclose GOD in collection of books. See few among many other examples of non stated conditional prophesy: king Saul's kingship: prophet Samuel didn't tell Saul that he will be dethroned if he disobeyed. king David kingship: he was promised peace in his reign, yet peace was taken when he slept with Bathsheba and killed Uriah. Ahab's judgement: Elijah didn't give any conditions and yet when Ahab repented, and the LORD relented. king Hezekiah' death: prophet Isaiah didn't give him any conditions and yet the LORD prolonged his life after Hezekiah prayed. king Josiah's death: prophet Huldah prophesied he would die in peace and did not give any conditions. Yet, he died in a battle with Egypt. king Zedekiah's death: prophet Jeremiah told him to surrender to Babylon to live, yet he was killed by Babylonians when captured. By today's 100% standards, you would label these prophets 'false', but we know they were not false. Their prophesies did not happen because there was an implicit conditions that the recipients did not uphold or meet. sagenaija: |
| Re: Why Modern-day Apostles And Prophets Are Unscriptural by sagenaija: 9:14pm On Jun 14 |
SeraphEl: On 100% accuracy: My point here is that the justification for modern-day “prophets” failing in their so-called prophecies have no scriptural backing. Prophets are simply to restate what God told them. A “Thus said the Lord” that comes from a “prophet” who is simply trying to decipher what God is saying rather than clearly hearing from God shows that there is already a flaw in that claim. On apostles’ and prophets’ position: Once a FOUNDATION has been laid does it need to be rebuilt? The plain answer is, no! The superstructure may be in the process of still being built BUT NOT the foundation. So, who are the foundation builders of the church? Once the foundation has been laid, can it continue to be laid? Once God chooses to reveal himself and his will to man, no one is at liberty to seek any other source for the revelation of God to man. That will be arrogance or outright rebellion. If any revelation comes to man, the revealed word of God is what should be used to evaluate the validity of that revelation. Sticking to what God has revealed is not enclosing God. After all, he is the one who chose to reveal that to man. We must never forget that. It is in seeking to go outside what God has revealed or not using what he has revealed to evaluate experiences and the like, that many have ended up in deviation from the truth. Quiz: If a man says “Thus says the Lord for his church” today can we hold that word to be at par with the Bible? |
| Re: Why Modern-day Apostles And Prophets Are Unscriptural by SeraphEl: 11:26pm On Jun 14 |
Mr. I am not here to get into philosophical argument with you. Not interested in the least bit. I have laid out common sense, logical and biblically supported conclusions for apostles and prophets for today. It is really simple. I can't make it any clearer. The bottom line is this: Ephesians 4 and 1 Cor. 13 tells us when the 5 office gifts cease: WHEN THE PERFECT, CHRIST RETURNS!!! There were no ifs, ands, buts in these passages. It doesn't say, but apostles and prophets are not longer needed because church foundation is laid. In plain English I wrote: once a foundation of a house is laid, no need to continue to lay foundations, but only to build. Modern day apostles and prophets are NOT laying new foundations, THEY ARE BUILDING UPON THE FOUNDATION- that is, the rest of the building construction carries on. Have you not seen a house being built? Do builders keep laying foundation forever? Repeatedly it is written "heavens and earth cannot contain HIM". If heavens and earth cannot contain him, how much less 66 books??. I hate to break it to you, but the god you claim you know in the bible, I am 100% certain is a false god, an idol. Most Christians do NOT actually KNOW the GOD they claim they believe in or worship......just a figment of their imagination. A god of their own fanciful, contorted, delusional construct. That's why many will say on that day, 'but LORD, LORD, and will be dismissed to hell'. I am really finished with this bit. So, I will let you have the last word as it seems you are bent on that. Nothing more for me to add apart from repeating myself. Shalom. sagenaija: |
| Re: Why Modern-day Apostles And Prophets Are Unscriptural by sagenaija: 11:14am On Jun 15 |
SeraphEl: First, I do not claim to know all. When I engage here I always expect it to be a healthy interaction. Not one borne out of a negative approach. Sometimes it is in the course of a discussion that a person gets a clearer understanding of some issues. You made some strong claims and assertions. What makes you think that you are right? Also, what makes me think that I am right? If there is no objective basis on which to evaluate either of our positions then we would just be running on the fuel of emotions. This is where clear arguments based on clear facts comes in. Since you said that you're done here I do not think you will respond to this. But I just wanted to chip this in. I will come up with a scripture passage later on regarding this same issue and I will want others who are reading this thread to answer the question I will ask after giving the passage. Maybe you too can respond but responses should be scripture-based and not just assumptions. That may settle the matter for many people where we should stand on this issue. Cheers. |
| Re: Why Modern-day Apostles And Prophets Are Unscriptural by sagenaija: 8:13am On Jun 16 |
To revisit one passage earlier stated: Revelation 21:14 – “The city wall had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the Lamb’s twelve apostles.” The foundation is the beginning stage of building a house and cannot be continually laid down over time. A foundation comes first in the history of a building. This corresponds to the first century in the Bible. The centuries after the Apostolic Age represent the rest of the structure which is still being built on the foundation. The early church fathers which followed the apostles in the second and third centuries also saw the apostles and prophets as those who laid down the foundation of the church. These early, and even later fathers, did not view themselves as apostles no matter how high of status they held in the church. Question: The Bible here talks ONLY about “the Lamb’s twelve apostles.” Why are those who will claim to be apostles throughout human history left out here? |
| Re: Why Modern-day Apostles And Prophets Are Unscriptural by sagenaija: 10:01pm On Jul 06 |
No so-called “apostle” or “prophet” today is giving scriptural-level revelation from God. True or false? |
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