tctrills:

Another brilliant question. Now let's go to the bible for answers.
Revelations13. [8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain.
Hebrews 11.13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Now the first verse describes Christ as the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. His death was an already concluded event.
Hence the second verse, even before his physical death, people who had faith in God banked on the promises of the gospel. Their faith in the promises to come was enough to bring them forgiveness.
So even before his physical sacrifice, many could receive forgiveness through faith in him.

You didn't answer anything at all!

O! so Jesus died for your sins!

But even before Jesus died sins were being forgiven! So of what importance is his death?

1. Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors.

2. Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours

3. Jesus told a man his sins were forgiven! And he wasn't dead then!

So of what use is someone dying?

If people were forgiven without death or blood then of what importance is the Blood?

The crucified criminal in Luke was also forgiven. Jesus wasn't dead yet.

So i guess the blood atonement was useless and needless!

AntiChristian:
■Where is it explained clearly?
■ Who did Jesus tell anything about grace and then works which contradicts one another?

1. My first post provides you the answers.

2. You only think they contradict each other because before now you never realized that this Gospel preached almost 2000 years ago offered 2 separate salvation to the Lost sheep of Israel. Your understanding of things comes from the narrative that is pedaled by the religious people, the non-Israelites whom Jesus Christ clearly said would ruin and tear down that which is Holy if it were given to them. So, you have no one to blame for your confusion here.

AntiChristian:



You didn't answer anything at all!



If people were forgiven without death or blood then of what importance is the Blood?

The crucified criminal in Luke was also forgiven. Jesus wasn't dead yet.

So i guess the blood atonement was useless and needless!

But I already answered you that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ had power to save those who died before him and also those after him. That's why he is called the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.
The power of his sacrifice is not bound by time.
Everyone that ever received forgiveness from God received it because of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Have I answered your question now?

Where’s the prove he was inspired when he clearly said he was just writing as others wrote theirs?
So if he was just writing as others wrote, does it mean he was not inspired. They all were inspired.

He said it was handed down to them by eyewitness. Is eyewitness inspiration?
Every christian receives the word from witnesses but the confirmation we get comes from the spirit of God. Therein lies our inspiration.
I learnt about Jesus Christ from the witnesses in the bible but it was the inspiration of the Holy Ghost that led me to him.
2 Corinthians 3:6

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


Was Luke aware he was writing the scripture to be included in the Bible? Do you think any of those who wrote the Books of the Bible were aware their books would be included in the book called Bible?
I don't know and it's actually not important.

Luke was writing to a Theophilus. Luke was a historian writing to a specific audience! So where is Holy spirit involved? Why was a Book written to one Theophilus included in your scripture?
Luke was a follower of Jesus Christ. Entitled to the Spirit. Therein lies the inspiration.
Many prophets in the old testament were also historians. It doesn't mean they were not called of God.

tctrills:

But I already answered you that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ had power to save those who died before him and also those after him. That's why he is called the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.
The power of his sacrifice is not bound by time.
Everyone that ever received forgiveness from God received it because of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Have I answered your question now?

So those who didn't believe in him or even know him will be saved by his death!

Can we get a verse that proves this from the old testament?

1. Isaiah 43:11 I, yes I, am YHWH, and there is no Savior but Me.


2. Exodus 34:6-7
God describes Himself as merciful and forgiving, showing love to thousands while forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin.

3.Numbers 14:18-19
Moses appeals to God’s mercy, and God forgives the Israelites despite their rebellion, demonstrating His willingness to pardon.

4. Psalm 103:10-12
This passage speaks of God's forgiveness, stating He does not deal with us according to our sins and removes our transgressions from us.

5. Isaiah 1:18
God invites the people to reason with Him, promising that though their sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow, indicating forgiveness.

6. Jeremiah 31:34
God promises a new covenant where He will forgive their iniquity and remember their sins no more, highlighting His willingness to forgive.

AntiChristian:


So those who didn't believe in him or even know him will be saved by his death!

Can we get a verse that proves this from the old testament?

1. Isaiah 43:11 I, yes I, am YHWH, and there is no Savior but Me.


2. Exodus 34:6-7
God describes Himself as merciful and forgiving, showing love to thousands while forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin.

3.Numbers 14:18-19
Moses appeals to God’s mercy, and God forgives the Israelites despite their rebellion, demonstrating His willingness to pardon.

4. Psalm 103:10-12
This passage speaks of God's forgiveness, stating He does not deal with us according to our sins and removes our transgressions from us.

5. Isaiah 1:18
God invites the people to reason with Him, promising that though their sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow, indicating forgiveness.

6. Jeremiah 31:34
God promises a new covenant where He will forgive their iniquity and remember their sins no more, highlighting His willingness to forgive.

But you realize that it was Jesus Christ that was speaking in all those verses you quoted right?
That's enough evidence.
Jesus Christ is the Jehovah of the old testament.
Everyone of these people from the verses you quoted above were forgiven through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Even before his physical death, Jesus Christ sacrifice was already in force. Hence he is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
If you are asking how people in the past can be blessed by an event is the future, my answer will be that God is the creator of time and his blessings know no boundaries.
Again, asking me to prove something from the old testament doesn't really make sense. You can't dictate for God in which book he should reveal a certain truth. He chose to reveal some truths in the old testament and other truths in the new testament. You shouldn't have a problem with that.
Isaiah explained how God reveals his truth. It's here a little and there a little so don't expect all truths in the old testament or all in the new testament.
Isaiah 28:10

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

tctrills:

But you realize that it was Jesus Christ that was speaking in all those verses you quoted right?
That's enough evidence.

No, i didn't realize! Jesus was never mentioned anywhere therein so how is it Jesus?

Jesus Christ is the Jehovah of the old testament.

You need to prove this first?

Everyone of these people from the verses you quoted above were forgiven through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Even before his physical death, Jesus Christ sacrifice was already in force. Hence he is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
If you are asking how people in the past can be blessed by an event is the future, my answer will be that God is the creator of time and his blessings know no boundaries.
Again, asking me to prove something from the old testament doesn't really make sense. You can't dictate for God in which book he should reveal a certain truth. He chose to reveal some truths in the old testament and other truths in the new testament. You shouldn't have a problem with that.
Isaiah explained how God reveals his truth. It's here a little and there a little so don't expect all truths in the old testament or all in the new testament.
Isaiah 28:10

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

What is the context of Isaiah 28:10? It doesn't even mean what you are giving it.

Jesus was nowhere in the Old testament!

AntiChristian:
No, i didn't realize! Jesus was never mentioned anywhere therein so how is it Jesus?

You need to prove this first?



What is the context of Isaiah 28:10? It doesn't even mean what you are giving it.

Jesus was nowhere in the Old testament!

Ok let me prove it to you and I guess this would convince you.
Just 2 verses, one from the old and another from the new.

Exodus 3:14
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus Christ was 5he one who appeared to Moses and introduced himself as I Am.

As for Isaiah 28.10, why don't we just read from verse 9
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Is it now clear to you.
You don't expect God to give you all the knowledge at once or from one book.

tctrills:
Where’s the prove he was inspired when he clearly said he was just writing as others wrote theirs?
So if he was just writing as others wrote, does it mean he was not inspired. They all were inspired.

Give us the proof? Did Luke say they were inspired? Or he forgot! Paul had to help him later?

He said it was handed down to them by eyewitness. Is eyewitness inspiration?
Every christian receives the word from witnesses but the confirmation we get comes from the spirit of God. Therein lies our inspiration.
I learnt about Jesus Christ from the witnesses in the bible but it was the inspiration of the Holy Ghost that led me to him.

So the word you received from eyewitness is what the holy Spirit inspired? So why is the Holy Spirit Inspiration not perfect? If Matthew was perfect then there should be no need for Mark, Luke and John? Except that each were essentially different in many themes!

2 Corinthians 3:6
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Paul's letter to his congregation in Corinth to the rescue! Where did Jesus infer anything about the New testament?

Was Luke aware he was writing the scripture to be included in the Bible? Do you think any of those who wrote the Books of the Bible were aware their books would be included in the book called Bible?
I don't know and it's actually not important.

Of course! All of the writers of the new testament were just writing their letters to some people. It was never intended to be in a book called Bible. now you are saying the Holy spirit was involved in an unplanned writing!

Luke was writing to a Theophilus. Luke was a historian writing to a specific audience! So where is Holy spirit involved? Why was a Book written to one Theophilus included in your scripture?
Luke was a follower of Jesus Christ. Entitled to the Spirit. Therein lies the inspiration.
Many prophets in the old testament were also historians. It doesn't mean they were not called of God.

How was Luke a follower of Jesus?
Show us where Luke was entitled to the spirit?
I am not talking of the old testament Prophets but your new testament!

Jesus was aware of the Old testament but not of your new! The Book of John came later close to 100 years after Jesus!

tctrills:

Ok let me prove it to you and I guess this would convince you.
Just 2 verses, one from the old and another from the new.

Exodus 3:14
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus Christ was 5he one who appeared to Moses and introduced himself as I Am.

As for Isaiah 28.10, why don't we just read from verse 9
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Is it now clear to you.
You don't expect God to give you all the knowledge at once or from one book.

Is this your proof?

You are a novice!
I have passed this stage.

Go and check the Greek and Hebrew translation that was translated as "I am that i am"

"Ego eimi" is the term and It is present in many verses!

John 9:9 - Some claimed that he was, but others said, “No, he just looks like him.” But the man kept saying, “I am the one.”

Acts 26:29 - “Short time or long,” Paul replied, “I wish to God that not only you but all who hear me this day may become what I am, except for these chains.”

Mark 13:6 - Many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many.

Luke 21:8 - Jesus answered, “See to it that you are not deceived. For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them.

John 18:5 - “Jesus of Nazareth,” they answered. Jesus said, “I am He.” And Judas His betrayer was standing there with them.

John 18:6 - When Jesus said, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground

John 18:8 - “I told you that I am He,” Jesus replied. “So if you are looking for Me, let these men go.”

Matthew 14:27 - But Jesus spoke up at once: “Take courage! It is I. Do not be afraid.”

Mark 6:50 - because they all saw him and were terrified. Immediately he spoke to them and said, “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”

John 6:20 - But he said to them, “It is I; don’t be afraid.”

John 8:24 - That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

John 8:28 - So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.

So you can see how "Ego eimi" or "Eimi ego" has been translated throughout the Bible. Are they all referring to God?

AntiChristian:


Is this your proof?

You are a novice!
I have passed this stage.

Go and check the Greek and Hebrew translation that was translated as "I am that i am"

"Ego eimi" is the term and It is present in many verses!

John 9:9 - Some claimed that he was, but others said, “No, he just looks like him.” But the man kept saying, “I am the one.”

Acts 26:29 - “Short time or long,” Paul replied, “I wish to God that not only you but all who hear me this day may become what I am, except for these chains.”

Mark 13:6 - Many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many.

Luke 21:8 - Jesus answered, “See to it that you are not deceived. For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them.

John 18:5 - “Jesus of Nazareth,” they answered. Jesus said, “I am He.” And Judas His betrayer was standing there with them.

John 18:6 - When Jesus said, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground

John 18:8 - “I told you that I am He,” Jesus replied. “So if you are looking for Me, let these men go.”

Matthew 14:27 - But Jesus spoke up at once: “Take courage! It is I. Do not be afraid.”

Mark 6:50 - because they all saw him and were terrified. Immediately he spoke to them and said, “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”

John 6:20 - But he said to them, “It is I; don’t be afraid.”

John 8:24 - That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

John 8:28 - So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.

So you can see how "Ego eimi" or "Eimi ego" has been translated throughout the Bible. Are they all referring to God?

Actually I have checked all these and language scholars differ. I can link you to a number of scholastic works that are on my side of the argument. Do you want us to do this?

tctrills:

Actually I have checked all these and language scholars differ. I can link you to a number of scholastic works that are on my side of the argument. Do you want us to do this?

What language scholars do you need for this simple matter?

At this, his neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging began to ask, “Isn’t this the man who used to sit and beg?” Some claimed that he was, but others said, “No, he just looks like him.” But the man kept saying, “I am the one". “How then were your eyes opened?” they asked. He answered, “The man they call Jesus made some mud and anointed my eyes, and He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed and received my sight.” “Where is He?” they asked. “I do not know,” he answered. John 9:8-11

See the man Jesus healed. He said "Ego Eimi" too and it was translated as "I am the one".

Is he same as your God in Exodus too?

Paul said the same too below:

Acts 26:29 - “Short time or long,” Paul replied, “I wish to God that not only you but all who hear me this day may become what I am, except for these chains.”

Is he same as your God in Exodus too?

[quote author=AntiChristian post=131745581] Give us the proof? Did Luke say they were inspired? Or he forgot! Paul had to help him later?
No specific writer in the bible wrote that he was inspired but the bible teaches that all scripture is inspired.

So the word you received from eyewitness is what the holy Spirit inspired? So why is the Holy Spirit Inspiration not perfect? If Matthew was perfect then there should be no need for Mark, Luke and John? Except that each were essentially different in many themes!

That's a lame excuse. Jesus Christ taught that in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses would all truth be established. All these books are witnesses. That more than one person wrote does not show imperfections. Please explain your question better.

Paul's letter to his congregation in Corinth to the rescue! Where did Jesus infer anything about the New testament?
I am not understanding you please explain.


Of course! All of the writers of the new testament were just writing their letters to some people. It was never intended to be in a book called Bible. now you are saying the Holy spirit was involved in an unplanned writing!
Yes you have a small point there. The writers never intended for a complied book but who told you that God never intended for that.



How was Luke a follower of Jesus?
Show us where Luke was entitled to the spirit?
I am not talking of the old testament Prophets but your new testament!
You mean he was not a Christian? Now are we just trying to be funny?

Jesus was aware of the Old testament but not of your new! The Book of John came later close to 100 years after Jesus!
Jesus Christ is aware of all. He is the author and finisher of our faith. And yes the new testament had to come after him because it was a record of his life and the works of his Apostles. It makes no sense if the new testament was written before his coming.

AntiChristian:


What language scholars do you need for this simple matter?

At this, his neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging began to ask, “Isn’t this the man who used to sit and beg?” Some claimed that he was, but others said, “No, he just looks like him.” But the man kept saying, “I am the one". “How then were your eyes opened?” they asked. He answered, “The man they call Jesus made some mud and anointed my eyes, and He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed and received my sight.” “Where is He?” they asked. “I do not know,” he answered. John 9:8-11

See the man Jesus healed. He said "Ego Eimi" too and it was translated as "I am the one".

Is he same as your God in Exodus too?

Paul said the same too below:

Acts 26:29 - “Short time or long,” Paul replied, “I wish to God that not only you but all who hear me this day may become what I am, except for these chains.”

Is he same as your God in Exodus too?

Now this your argument is not making sense because "I Am" was not used in the same sense in the verses you quoted.
In Exodus and Joh 8, it was clearly used as a name.
Please see the difference

Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
And in John 8
Before Abraham was, I am.
Is it not so clear that the words are not used in the same context as in the verses you quoted?

tctrills:
Give us the proof? Did Luke say they were inspired? Or he forgot! Paul had to help him later?
No specific writer in the bible wrote that he was inspired but the bible teaches that all scripture is inspired.

The Bible teaches? Who is the one teaching if not Paul? Luke was Paul's student/companion so he wrote what he learnt from Paul. The scripture that is inspired is definitely not the Bible!

So the word you received from eyewitness is what the holy Spirit inspired? grin So why is the Holy Spirit Inspiration not perfect? If Matthew was perfect then there should be no need for Mark, Luke and John? Except that each were essentially different in many themes!

That's a lame excuse. Jesus Christ taught that in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses would all truth be established. All these books are witnesses. That more than one person wrote does not show imperfections. Please explain your question better.

Okay, How do you resolve errors from the four gospels in what they narrate differently? Example is the case of the criminals crucified with Jesus. Mathew and Mark says both abused Jesus. Luke said one abused the other believed in Jesus. John didn't even see the event all but narrates how Jesus handed over his mum to John?

Paul's letter to his congregation in Corinth to the rescue! Where did Jesus infer anything about the New testament?
I am not understanding you please explain.

Paul came to correct and amend the Gospel. Without Paul's letters there's no Christianity. That's why you must quote Paul.

Of course! All of the writers of the new testament were just writing their letters to some people. It was never intended to be in a book called Bible. now you are saying the Holy spirit was involved in an unplanned writing!
Yes you have a small point there. The writers never intended for a complied book but who told you that God never intended for that.

No one knows the intention of God but we know God revealed the Torah to Moses and Psalms to David. It is clear Jesus was not even aware that his biography would be compiled decades after he left the world as Scripture!

How was Luke a follower of Jesus?
Show us where Luke was entitled to the spirit?
I am not talking of the old testament Prophets but your new testament!
You mean he was not a Christian? Now are we just trying to be funny?

Give your proof he was inspired to write! Nobody was mentioned as a Christian until Paul came with his boy Luke!

Jesus was aware of the Old testament but not of your new! The Book of John came later close to 100 years after Jesus!
Jesus Christ is aware of all. He is the author and finisher of our faith. And yes the new testament had to come after him because it was a record of his life and the works of his Apostles. It makes no sense if the new testament was written before his coming.

It makes no sense as it was not written when he was alive. Jesus taught people to make heaven! Why can't what he taught be written during his lifetime? It took from 30-100 years after he left for people to come up with what you call New testament now!

tctrills:

Now this your argument is not making sense because "I Am" was not used in the same sense in the verses you quoted.
In Exodus and Joh 8, it was clearly used as a name.
Please see the difference

Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
And in John 8
Before Abraham was, I am.
Is it not so clear that the words are not used in the same context as in the verses you quoted?

What sense do you want?
The sense that when Jesus says something you always see more to it than what it is!

What is the name "I am that i am" or "I am"?

What does Ego Eimi truly mean?

The Bible teaches? Who is the one teaching if not Paul? Luke was Paul's student/companion so he wrote what he learnt from Paul. The scripture that is inspired is definitely not the Bible!
When you say a student and companion of Paul, you mean he is also a Christian hence a follower of Jesus Christ right?

Okay, How do you resolve errors from the four gospels in what they narrate differently? Example is the case of the criminals crucified with Jesus. Mathew and Mark says both abused Jesus. Luke said one abused the other believed in Jesus. John didn't even see the event all but narrates how Jesus handed over his mum to John?
In all the very little differences, they all teach the same message and principles. Even if this were a court of law, witnesses with up to 90% similarities in their stories are credible enough.
Also, the bible had been through a lot in it's thousands of years history. That it is still able to reflect the message of Jesus Christ is a miracle in itself. Get tens of men span over thousands of years and places to write a book and let's see 5he outcome.

Paul came to correct and amend the Gospel. Without Paul's letters there's no Christianity. That's why you must quote Paul. Paul was not even a Christian when Jesu Christ said the following. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


No one knows the intention of God but we know God revealed the Torah to Moses and Psalms to David. It is clear Jesus was not even aware that his biography would be compiled decades after he left the world as Scripture!

Give your proof he was inspired to write! Nobody was mentioned as a Christian until Paul came with his boy Luke!
How do you know it was God that revealed the Psalms to David. My proof is that all scripture are given by God.


It makes no sense as it was not written when he was alive. Jesus taught people to make heaven! Why can't what he taught be written during his lifetime? It took from 30-100 years after he left for people to come up with what you call New testament now!
So you big point is, if a book about you is written after your time on earth, it makes no sense right. Ok, I can't agree with such logic. And I know that if not for the sake of argument, even you will disagree with yourself.

AntiChristian:


What sense do you want?
The sense that when Jesus says something you always see more to it than what it is!

What is the name "I am that i am" or "I am"?

What does Ego Eimi truly mean?

Exodus 3:14 in which God gives his name as אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה‎, Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh, translated most basically as "I am that I am" or "I shall be what I am". In the Hebrew Bible (Exodus 3:14), it is the personal name of God, revealed directly to Moses.

AntiChristian:
Jesus says:
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?
(Matthew 27:21-22)

Paul's guy Luke reported that Jesus answered saying: “Work hard to enter the narrow door to God’s Kingdom, for many will try to enter but will fail. (Luke 13:24)

Jesus emphasizes doing the will of the father as a condition to enter the Kingdom of heaven!

Paul says
For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. (Romans 9:15-16)

Paul says it's by God's mercy oooooooooo!

Is it by God's mercy or by doing God's will aka works?

The age-old debate: is it works or mercy that gets us into the Kingdom of heaven? At first glance, it may seem like Jesus and Paul are at odds on this one. But, I'd love to offer a different perspective.

You see, Jesus' emphasis on doing the will of the Father (Matthew 27:21-22) and working hard to enter the narrow door (Luke 13:24) is not about earning our way into heaven through good deeds. Rather, it's about demonstrating our love and commitment to God through our actions. It's about living out our faith in a way that honors Him.

On the other hand, Paul's statement about God's mercy (Romans 9:15-16) highlights the fact that our salvation is ultimately a gift from God. We can't earn it, no matter how hard we try. It's God's mercy and compassion that make it possible for us to enter into a relationship with Him.

So, is it works or mercy? I'd say it's both. You see, when we receive God's mercy and accept His gift of salvation, it naturally flows into a desire to do His will and live out our faith in a way that honors Him. It's not about trying to earn our way into heaven, but about responding to the love and mercy we've received from God.

Think of it like a marriage. When we fall in love with someone, we don't do things for them because we're trying to earn their love. We do things for them because we love them, and we want to show them that love. It's the same with our relationship with God. When we receive His mercy and love, we respond by doing His will and living out our faith in a way that honors Him.

So, let's not get caught up in the debate. Instead, let's focus on receiving God's mercy and responding with a life that honors Him. That's the true path to a deeper, more meaningful relationship with our Heavenly Father.

armchairscholar:


The age-old debate: is it works or mercy that gets us into the Kingdom of heaven? At first glance, it may seem like Jesus and Paul are at odds on this one. But, I'd love to offer a different perspective.

You see, Jesus' emphasis on doing the will of the Father (Matthew 27:21-22) and working hard to enter the narrow door (Luke 13:24) is not about earning our way into heaven through good deeds. Rather, it's about demonstrating our love and commitment to God through our actions. It's about living out our faith in a way that honors Him.

On the other hand, Paul's statement about God's mercy (Romans 9:15-16) highlights the fact that our salvation is ultimately a gift from God. We can't earn it, no matter how hard we try. It's God's mercy and compassion that make it possible for us to enter into a relationship with Him.

So, is it works or mercy? I'd say it's both. You see, when we receive God's mercy and accept His gift of salvation, it naturally flows into a desire to do His will and live out our faith in a way that honors Him. It's not about trying to earn our way into heaven, but about responding to the love and mercy we've received from God.

Think of it like a marriage. When we fall in love with someone, we don't do things for them because we're trying to earn their love. We do things for them because we love them, and we want to show them that love. It's the same with our relationship with God. When we receive His mercy and love, we respond by doing His will and living out our faith in a way that honors Him.

So, let's not get caught up in the debate. Instead, let's focus on receiving God's mercy and responding with a life that honors Him. That's the true path to a deeper, more meaningful relationship with our Heavenly Father.

I understand your point and i agree academically it should be both!
But textually there's no agreement that Jesus supported grace!

1. Jesus met the rich ruler - No Grace - all works, works and works!
2. Even the disciples were all works and works!

AntiChristian:


Why didn't Jesus say this to the rich ruler?

Did the man Jesus told his sins were forgiven believe in Jesus as you believed in him?

Jesus had to first of all make the rich ruler understand that his works were not sufficient.
First Jesus pointed him to the ten commandment.
Then told him to sell all he had and give to he poor then come and follow him.

The rich ruler trusted in his ability to keep the commandment but by Jesus adding other things to it exposed his sinfulness.

Salvation is by grace through faith in christ however, saving faith comes when ones sinfulness is exposed.

Before the death of Christ people could be forgiven temporarily base on the old covenant but however everlasting forgiveness of sin lies only in Jesus christ.

AntiChristian:


I understand your point and i agree academically it should be both!
But textually there's no agreement that Jesus supported grace!

1. Jesus met the rich ruler - No Grace - all works, works and works!
2. Even the disciples were all works and works!

Do you not see the contradiction of being saved by grace and works?
The fact you need mercy already prove that your works couldn't save you, if works can save you then you don't need mercy.

Imagine a student who couldn't meet up the cut off mark to pass an exam but the examiner had to upgrade his mark, the fact is, he initially failed, if he didn't fail he wouldn't need to be upgraded.

AntiChristian:
The Bible teaches? Who is the one teaching if not Paul? Luke was Paul's student/companion so he wrote what he learnt from Paul. The scripture that is inspired is definitely not the Bible!
!

Your Quran says Paul is a true messenger of God.

If Paul is a true messenger of God, according to ur Quran, then Paul's teachings are inspired by God.

If you say Paul's teachings are not inspired by God, then u are saying your Quran is lying.

Boy, you keep on scoring own goals against Islam.

I noticed that you ignored my last comments. Is like you realize that you've been defeated.

You guys can only lie successfully when dealing with uninformed Christians.

But when you are challenged by Christians who have knowledge of your Quran, you run away with your tails between your legs---defeated!

Steep:
Do you not see the contradiction of being saved by grace and works?
The fact you need mercy already prove that your works couldn't save you, if works can save you then you don't need mercy.

Imagine a student who couldn't meet up the cut off mark to pass an exam but the examiner had to upgrade his mark, the fact is, he initially failed, if he didn't fail he wouldn't need to be upgraded.

What cut-off mark did the crucified Criminal met?

Did Jesus tell the rich ruler about grace to gain eternal life?

Discuss both instances squarely!

effort1:


Your Quran says Paul is a true messenger of God.

If Paul is a true messenger of God, according to ur Quran, then Paul's teachings are inspired by God.

If you say Paul's teachings are not inspired by God, then u are saying your Quran is lying.

Boy, you keep on scoring own goals against Islam.

I noticed that you ignored my last comments. Is like you realize that you've been defeated.

You guys can only lie successfully when dealing with uninformed Christians.

But when you are challenged by Christians who have knowledge of your Quran, you run away with your tails between your legs---defeated!

Where did the Qur'an mention Paul's name? Just show me Paul's name in Arabic Qur'an?

AntiChristian:
Jesus says:
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?
(Matthew 27:21-22)

Paul's guy Luke reported that Jesus answered saying: “Work hard to enter the narrow door to God’s Kingdom, for many will try to enter but will fail. (Luke 13:24)

Jesus emphasizes doing the will of the father as a condition to enter the Kingdom of heaven!

Paul says
For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. (Romans 9:15-16)

Paul says it's by God's mercy oooooooooo!

Is it by God's mercy or by doing God's will aka works?

if you don't understand the bible why don't you learn from others who are christian on this forum

Kingsempires:
if you don't understand the bible why don't you learn from others who are christian on this forum

Make I learn from you.

Your own explanation will be different from your pastor's own!

AntiChristian:


Make I learn from you.

Your own explanation will be different from your pastor's own!

Omo you dey make me dey laugh ooo

As you can see am not good in teaching or explaining [/b]At list oga steep is on this thread he will explain it for you very well.


[color=#990000][/color] but the problem is "[b] you will never agree with his explanation"

There are other people who can explain it for you very well

Kingsempires:
Omo you dey make me dey laugh ooo

As you can see am not good in teaching or explaining [/b]At list oga steep is on this thread he will explain it for you very well.


[color=#990000][/color] but the problem is "[b] you will never agree with his explanation"

There are other people who can explain it for you very well

I won't agree if it's not convincing! Steep will come with his own denominational bias.