i seem to remeber the topic is northern killer muslims at work again.

all of a sudden 'its the muslims are killing us'. i pointed it out earlier, as a question - babs 787, mukina, belloti, and a host of other muslims read the quran , and they don't kill christians. how come?

stop looking for simple answers to complex questions you are more intelligent than that( if you wish to be. you couldn't have long necked through all of medical school, could you? )

if all northern muslims are as violently inclined as you claim, you and your whole family in the north would have been wiped out a long time ago.

Uche2nna:

@ oyb

If I am obtuse to the fact, I would not be pointing it out, would I?

my bad. I aplogise

@ Oyb

U are absolutely rite and that is the issue that needs a lot of addressing. I have known many muslims in my life time and honestly some of them do not approve of these killings. So, the question is wat is the difference between these muslims that are not fanatics to the point of violence and those that are violent? This brings us back to the point Wes was trying to make ( and she was labelled a teeny bopper ). Majority of the answers to the question lies in the socio economic levels of these people and also the educational level. Those that are violent (or are used for violence) tend to lean towards the poorer class. The almajiris constitute 90 percent of this class.

Violence on religious minorities is not a unique phenomenon to Northern Nigeria so it can't be validly claimed that this is an isolated event whose root causes can be confined to socio-economic factors in the North.

We have similar violence in many parts of the world-Sudan,Algeria,Egypt,Indonesia,Iraq,Pakistan,Bangladesh,Turkey.e.t.c

Oyb can adduce all the straw man argument he likes but the fact remains that there is an inherently violent element to Islam,more so than any other religion,which prompts certain susceptible people to violence.

the sad answer is that in a country like nigeria- people will always have a need for poor uneducated masses

uneducated masses make election rigging possible-which is why political parties use bright simple symbols

they provide a pool for recruiting political thugs/enforcers/cultists

they provide a means for schemers to achieve their ends. ( i envy my successful neighbours business. my neighbour is a foreigner. its so easy. stir up some local illiterate urchins with stories of how the man is cheating us all, and before you know it they've mobilised , burnt his house, etc.)

the almajiris are illiterate. they can't read english charcters .the quran is in arabic. they can recite it alright, but they don't know what they're reading. so how can they be acting on what they read?all thats required is a demagogue of a similar cut of davidlyans and co's ilk-who will stir them up.

one of my goals( that i've put off indefinetely is to read and comprehend arabic, rather than read the quran and refer to the translations.

Wes or was it laudate put it best- Education is required. but i doubt that will happen. we have a democracy now.more than ever , there is a need for an pool of illiterate simple minded people who will serve as the foot soldiers in the 'capturing' of a state.

I-man:

Violence on religious minorities is not a unique phenomenon to Northern Nigeria so it can't be validly claimed that this is an isolated event whose root causes can be confined to socio-economic factors in the North.

We have similar violence in many parts of the world-Sudan,Algeria,Egypt,Indonesia,Iraq,Pakistan,Bangladesh,Turkey.e.t.c

Oyb can adduce all the straw man argument he likes but the fact remains that there is an inherently violent element to Islam,more so than any other religion,which prompts certain susceptible people to violence.

yawn. . .
I'm too lazy to repost all my 'wiki wiki' links_{( no doubt all the time you've been away, you've been playing Internet vandal man - vandalising wikipedia)} but as my previous posts indicated, similar atrocities have been executed by christians.

oyb:

the almajiris are illiterate. they can't read english charcters .the quran is in arabic. they can recite it alright, but they don't know what they're reading. so how can they be acting on what they read?all thats required is a demagogue of a similar cut of davidlyans and co's ilk-who will stir them up.

So its non-Muslims like "Davidylan and co" who "stir up" Muslim violence? I guess if Muslims kill Christians,its the non-Muslims that stirred them up.

Here is what I ask you,Oyb,why don't you target your righteous indignation towards the people that are carrying out the violence instead of blaming non-Muslims?

I-man:

So its non-Muslims like "Davidylan and co" who "stir up" Muslim violence? I guess if Muslims kill Christians,its the non-Muslims that stirred them up.

Here is what I ask you,Oyb,why don't you target your righteous indignation towards the people that are carrying out the violence instead of blaming non-Muslims?

you seem to be missing my point. this is what I'm saying
all that is required is a muslim similar to davidlyan, a demagougue ( usually with his own agenda) who hates christians and who delights in stirring up people against christians. though most of the time, he's probably stirring up the people for an ulterior motive.

is that simple enough for you?

oyb:

the sad answer is that in a country like nigeria- people will always have a need for poor uneducated masses

uneducated masses make election rigging possible-which is why political parties use bright simple symbols

they provide a pool for recruiting political thugs/enforcers/cultists

they provide a means for schemers to achieve their ends. ( i envy my successful neighbours business. my neighbour is a foreigner. its so easy. stir up some local illiterate urchins with stories of how the man is cheating us all, and before you know it they've mobilised , burnt his house, etc.)

the almajiris are illiterate. they can't read english charcters .the quran is in arabic. they can recite it alright, but they don't know what they're reading. so how can they be acting on what they read?all thats required is a demagogue of a similar cut of davidlyans and co's ilk-who will stir them up.

one of my goals( that i've put off indefinetely is to read and comprehend arabic, rather than read the quran and refer to the translations.

Wes or was it laudate put it best- Education is required. but i doubt that will happen. we have a democracy now.more than ever , there is a need for an pool of illiterate simple minded people who will serve as the foot soldiers in the 'capturing' of a state.

So basically, U are saying we should live with it  

@ I man
Rite! But U should know that no situations are exactly the same. The situation is not restricted only to Nigeria but then the underlying causes might be unique in each case. I dont know much about other regions( sudan, egypt et al) apart from wat I get in the media but I think I know very well about the situation in the north having lived there for over a decade. Socio economic factors play a huge role in the North, at least in Kano where I lived. Most peole that exclusively go to Koranic schools are people @ the lower end of the socio economic ladder. The middle class and the rich send off thier children to acquire western education. They also get Koranic education but only as a side kick. Now during riots, 90 percent of the mob come from the pool that exclusively go to Koranic schools (mind U the very poor) while the other pool that had gotten some taste of western education, for one reason or the other never join.

I-man:

So its non-Muslims like "Davidylan and co" who "stir up" Muslim violence? I guess if Muslims kill Christians,its the non-Muslims that stirred them up.

Here is what I ask you,Oyb,why don't you target your righteous indignation towards the people that are carrying out the violence instead of blaming non-Muslims?

what he actually wants us to say is

"the bad muslims are killing Christians"
The boy is dense.

Islam is the problem
when we know Mohammed did the exact same things and these bad ones are merely following his footsteps.

They'll blame it on almajiris being poor,on Arabs being short tempered.
How about Indonesians who are neither Arabs nor almajiri.
abeg

Don't mind oyb running his mouth on nairaland
If they start their rikichi in Kano,his infidel Yoruba Muslim butt won't even save him.
Yoruba Muslims in Northern Nigeria are not spared.
He can grow his beard like nebuchadnezzar but the "real slaves of allah" will cut him down with his bia bia.
He is a step away from the real infidels.

Religion of peace my foot

Uche2nna do you remember the prominent Yoruba prof that died in the "Benny Hinn" riots ?
He even shouted allahu but before he could say akhbar,gbosai
his poor head was rolling on the ground.
That's how quick they are,terrible folks.

Nope I did not remenber

@Uche2Nna

The question is,whether those socio-economic factors are unique to Northern Nigeria.It will be lazy to say that there is one single factor,be it Islam or deprivation,I tend to think there is an interplay between both of them.

There are a multitude of causes but I do believe that where violence is started over Mohammed Cartoons,maybe, just maybe,such violence might have Islam as one of its main causes.You may disagree but this is how I see it

Uche2nna:

So basically, You are saying we should live with it

Nope- I'm saying I can't see us doing what needs to be done. I'm from ilorin. Saraki Snr has Ilorin in a stranglehold.back in 1999 he jumped from anpp to pdp, and kwara stae followed him. why did this happen? because there is a large number of poor people in the stae. there was a day he was in town. there was a large queue of fifty year old women trouping to his house to collect N50. a friend with me said-' this man will never do anything to elevate these people. he needs them to be like this to remain in power.

thats the same reason why , though education is the answer, I can't see it happening. Too many people have a stake in the almajiris remaining as they are

nwando:

Don't mind oyb running his mouth on nairaland
If they start their rikichi in Kano,his infidel Yoruba Muslim butt won't even save him.
Yoruba Muslims in Northern Nigeria are not spared.
He can grow his beard like nebuchadnezzar but the "real slaves of allah" will cut him down with his bia bia.
He is a step away from the real infidels.

Religion of peace my foot

its nice to see you keeping to type.when all else fails threaten oyb with the northern boogeyman. .

those vicious northerners must be gnashing their teeth for letting you get away.

The stories told here have been real.
no threats,it is possible.
Mo set a bad example and now we are forced to deal with it.

I wish we could ship y'all to Niger

perhaps we should go for david (the most brilliant mind of his generation ) 's solution-

kick the northerners out of nigeria. ( but wait- do we kick out all northerners, or just the muslim ones?)

after that do we kick out the militant niger deltans? do we kick out states harboring militant opc and Massob elements?

hmm. . . when we're done , whats left? is that the way to go?

oyb:

Nope- I'm saying I can't see us doing what needs to be done. I'm from ilorin.

What if Dan Fodio Jihadists hadn't seized Ilorin. . . . would Oyb's perspective be different?

nwando:

The stories told here have been real.
no threats,it is possible.
Mo set a bad example and now we are forced to deal with it.

I wish we could ship y'all to Niger

thats more like it.i do love it when you shed the 'osisi is a lover not a hater ' bull and come right out with it!

you hate muslims. you must be pretty stupid if you actually think christians are being killed up north because as you put it 'Mo set an example.'

@ I man
I am only pointing out the most prominient factor which is entirely my opinion anyway. There might be an interplay of other factors. The Muhammad cartoons is no exception. It followed the same pattern. Some over zealous Imams raised concerns that thier prophet is being desecreted and the almajiris took to the streets.

Islam we all know was spread by the sword but I am hoping that the very small pool of peaceful muslims would give us a way out. I can stay here and say that Islam is a very violent religion and Muhammad is this or that but it does not help me or any of my relatives living in the north. At the end of the day we are all still gonna be dealing with one another as Nigerians.
And I dont even believe that the carving up of Nigeria into  different countries is gonna help, at least not in this situation. Cos @ the end of the day, Igbos nay other tribes will still be living in the north but now as foriegn nationals. To me that is even a worse option. They now have to reasons to chop off ur head, U are a non-muslim and U are not even of the same country.

anyway, I'm off. today was a public holiday, which is why i got to waste so much time that should be put to better pursuits trading insults with the internets most fearsome crusader. just so you won't say i ran away.ciao!

keep right on hating

On your backside (oyb)

I see you here again propagating your "it is the fault of bad muslims" theory that holds no water. Yes deprivation might play a factor but are the muslims in Holland, England e.t.c. deprived? Why are they forever outraged?

Was it poverty that saw Theo Van Gogh's blood spilling on the street?

good muslims don't kill
bad muslims do

Actually, it is the other way round

Uche2nna:

Actually, it is the other way round

I guess we need the bad ones like my dear oyb.
I love that boy!
with the love of the Lord of course.

I love a man who can hang on even by the skin of the teeth.
The guy's no wimp.
The guy we women love.

I'm sure I've increased his testosterone surge by quantum
allahu akhbar!

Muslim clerics write the pope to sue for peace!

As Muslims, we say to Christians that we are not against them and that Islam is
not against them—so long as they do not wage war against Muslims on account of their
religion, oppress them and drive them out of their homes, (in accordance with the verse
of the Holy Qur’an [Al-Mumtahinah, 60:8] quoted above). Moreover, God says in the
Holy Qur’an:

A "peace" laden with inherent threats. . . a "peace" that is only on islamic terms. Is this really peace?

back to topic:

Possible solutions:

option 1 . this is an option for peaceful christians who advocate tuning the other cheek.leave the north and its barbarians.

Nigeria is an unsafe country. Migrations are for economic reasons. As I said earlier, I´m from ilorin. I have , never worked a day of my life in ilorin. I never intended to. So I´m in lagos - the center of excellent area boys, bribe taking, set u uping killer policemen, go slow armed robbers, overzealous lastma, ferma, FRSC and 'local government ' officials. Its a crazy town. but since I´ve decided that i must get that paper($), I close my eyes to the madness around me, and pray that when and if my turn comes, i make out alright.

Some may say Lagos is a bad methapor. so try PH. MEND, Cultists - yet people still hustle down to PH everyday. They decide that the possibility of getting kidnapped, catching a stray bullet, being arrested for spying are acceptable risks.

that is the reality of nigeria. the north is a voltile place, full of mad almajiris - then what are you doing there? is a business venture worth your life?

A lot has been previously said about Saudi Arabia. My Dad worked there for ten years. Plenty of devout christians worked there as well. no one forced them to go there.they decided on their own that they would work in a place where churches, drinking , and going about uncovered is illegal. they decided that financial security was more important than the luxury of freedom of religious expression.

Nwando has so much to say about the north where she and several of her relatives grew up.why did they choose to reside in a repressive, anachronistic society? is nigeria that small? or did her relatives come to the decision that financial opportunities/possibilities are more important than freedom of religous expression?


_{'these abokis, they´re very stupid! this N3 shoe they are buying it for N20! ha buisiness good for this place O! wetin? dem dey kill us? no worry, God go protect us.No church for this place? that one na small thing. . .'}


you're all 'authorites' on islam. you must have know that Prophet Muhammed had to emigrate from Mecca to Medina because of hostilities. In Islam emigration for religious prurposes is one of the best good deeds. i don't know if its the same in christianity- but for devout christains who consider their faith the most important thing in thier life- just leave the infidel, barbabrian north.

here is a second , surefire solution -


government backed reprisals in flagrant violation of every UN charter - Jukun style. the government simply calls in soldiers to ´wipe out´almajiris after an incident in which christians are killed. if this happens twice, all attacks will most definetely cease. nigeria will lose face with the UN, Amnesty international, etc, but the christians will be safe. so, what do you think?

this worked in lagos two years ago.some foolish area boys killed a soldier in oshodi.for a forthnight, it was open season on area boys. they vanished from the streets.the soldiers dealt with them. we actually thought the area boy menace was gone forever.sadly, it transpired( that was the story, anyway-that the 'area fathers' made a big cash settlement with the army chiefs, and all was forgeotten/ forgiven).

since education is not achieveable, violence is a better option.this may backfire though,if the culture of arming miscreants( well established down south) is adopted up north.

you better hope no backward northern governors decide to follow the examples of their sophisticated southern counter parts.can you imagine almajiris with guns? everything considered, though, i dont think the northern governors will make that mistake. arming miscreants is what led to the current niger delta crisis. the governors and elite probably realise that if they arm the almajiris, they are shifting power to them.

so all things considered, the reprisal option is the best.preferably within hours after an incident. are the self described 'pacifist' christians ok with that? are you worried about collateral damage?

davidylan:

On your backside (oyb)

I see you here again propagating your "it is the fault of bad muslims" theory that holds no water.

my, my, my, 7+ posts and thats all you could see? please point out where i proposed 'a bad muslims' theory. oh well. . . i've always said you see what you want 2 see. _{(hope this dosen't get in the way of your academic research. )}

How do thousands of peaceful muslims help me when tens of thousands of Nigerian Christians and non Muslims worldwide are continually slaughtered at allah's altar without a cause?

just because the thousands of peaceful muslims don't "help you" doesn't mean you have to stereotype them as suicide bombers.

Or does it not bother you that something as innocent as a cartoon in Denmark would cause a Muslim in Bangladesh to kill a non Muslim fellow kinsman.

when the first cartoon was published, the danish muslim held a public protest and that was it.
it was when the cartoons got published in 50 other countries (the "christians" must have been having some sadistic fun with it) that got muslims all around the world annoyed and led a few of them to act through violent measures.

i wasn't surprised about the result of the incident. i don't agree with the people who decided to act in a violent means but what did you expect?
and can you explain to me how the cartoons were "innocent"?

the connection that came to my mind (no offense) when i saw the pictures the first time, was the pictures i've seen depicting african americans as "coons" in the early 1900s.
if (God Forbid) some pictures like that were published in the papers today (it's freedom of speech right?) http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/picaninny/more/clean.jpg, I'll be surprised if violence doesn't break out. lol nwando, maybe then, you'll be twisting an angry face rather than calling them "innocent cartoons"

a lil bit off topic

@Wesleyan A

i find it a lil absured, considering you have always decleared yourself a feminist, that you are so much against Moslems "mordenizing" and blaming the west for trying to change their way of thinking

You seem to forget that women in the west also had their place iin society not too long ago and the feminists were the ones demanding for a change in the western way of life. Whats wrong with applying the same principle that feminists have always advocated to the Islamic world?

WesleyanA:

the connection that came to my mind (no offense) when i saw the pictures the first time, was the pictures i've seen depicting african americans as "coons" in the early 1900s.
if (God Forbid) some pictures like that were published in the papers today (it's freedom of speech right?) http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/picaninny/more/clean.jpg, I'll be surprised if violence doesn't break out. lol nwando, maybe then, you'll be twisting an angry face rather than calling them "innocent cartoons"

there are thousands of cartoons depicting Africans as apes, coons e.t.c. everywhere. Even the quran refers to you as a raisin head, gone on a violent protest yet?