The practice of catholics is just like the Muslim religion.They
1. Use Rosery(not biblical)
2. Call the name of Mary(instead of Jesus)
3.Confess sin to the priest(instead of sin to Jesus)
4.Pray in the name of mary(and not in Jesus name) which contradict the vs in the bible, I AM THE ONLY WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE,
5.Worship Idols in their churches by diplaying some statues(even though they call them Jesus statues)but these are graven images as opposed to , THOU SHALL SERVE NO OTHER god ,
6.Their leader is Pope(who probably is not born-again)
HOW CAN WE THEN CONTINUE TO CALL CATHOLICS XTAINS A ND BELIEVERS? OF COURSE THEY ARE NOT! FELLOW NAIRALANDERS WHAT IS UR VIEW?

See this thread:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-75506.672.html

I think it should rsolve your worries. Start from page 1.

andrew3338:

Are Catholic Xtians?

Yes, protestant, they are.

Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless
and the treasury of compassion -inexhaustible, look kindly upon us and
increase your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor
become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your
holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself. Amen.

sure they are. though as you mentioned they have many differing views from protestants. however, even pentecostal churches have all sorts of wierd beliefs and they are called christians.

what type of question is this? there are about a billion catholics in the world, who believe they are the real christians. other sects of christianity are doing what ever they feel is right and biblical to them,so no body can come out and point at who is wrong or right when it comes to christianity because i personally believe all christians are confused and confounded because every sect does what they believe is right to them,and thats just how it is.

What could be "wrong" with a system that calls itself 'Christianity' and yet we hear the clear call of the Lord Jesus Christ saying:

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." (Revelation 18:4-5)

There is nothing "wrong" in Catholicism abi? - and why is God calling His people to COME OUT of that system? This has nothing to do with anybody's "personal" beliefs, especially when such people are no longer reading the Bible.

The call of God is clear: "COME OUT of her" and be not partakers of her sins!

pilgrim.1:

What could be "wrong" with a system that calls itself 'Christianity' and yet we hear the clear call of the Lord Jesus Christ saying:

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." (Revelation 18:4-5)

There is nothing "wrong" in Catholicism abi? - and why is God calling His people to COME OUT of that system? This has nothing to do with anybody's "personal" beliefs, especially when such people are no longer reading the Bible.

The call of God is clear: "COME OUT of her" and be not partakers of her sins!

Hmm, that's curious. I looked up the verses and the preceding and following verses, and for the life of me, I couldn't find "Catholicism", or any of its derivatives, anywhere. Could it be that maybe, just maybe, John wasn't talking about the Catholic sect?

KAG,

those of us who understand and live by prophecy know that it is about Catholicsim. The Word of God has never failed in its fulfilment right from Daniel to Revelation. They have all happened at one point in time or the other. History is there for the records for all to see.

The Vatican is the beast and the LovePeddler of revelation. The papacy is the tool of the antichrist whose over dozens of the so-called official titles all add up to 666, the number of man, the beast whose deadly wound was healed!

It is very simple.

The Book of Life


Foreword
My beloved brethren and fellow creatures of God, the time is fulfilled: your salvation is at hand; believe the gospel of the grace of God. Then again, one cannot be made to believe what his conscience has not convicted him to believe: therefore every one, at some point, shall be convicted of the truth. Now is the time when both Jew and Greek, religion and science, though varying, yet unidirectional, merge at their source of light. And for the benefit of the scientific mind, this gospel is written, encompassing the varying perspectives.

What is the Gospel, and what is Truth? Gospel means Good News; and Truth shall unfold in the text. What is the news; and what makes it good? To understand the news, you must first understand Good; and this is the point where science and religion come to meet: the point of light. There is an eternal conscious energy force known to man as God, or Life, whose very core is a glorious light known as Love, and by whom the universe was created; even then this force once laid dormant: and in its dormancy, a negative void known as darkness pervaded space, encircling the atom containing this energy. If the light that is God was darkness; what good is that darkness?

An atomic fission occurred within, (as does the energy known as the Sun), generating a combustive living energy (Exodus 24: 17 and Hebrews 12: 29) known as Consciousness, or Light (thus, When God speaks, man, in his natural sensory, hears thunder): which perception was good. Darkness is a void, and light is a presence: thus in the absence of light, darkness pervades: in the absence of knowledge, ignorance pervades. Upon the emergence of consciousness, awareness came of the depravity of this negative void (Darkness, or, Death); and the process of transforming this negative void into a positive presence became relevant; thus conceiving a formula, which formula became known as The Word.

As was with God in the beginning (Genesis 1: 2), man, the expressive image of God, was encompassed by darkness; but through times have received deliberate flashes of light, giving him some form of hope in what might seem to him as a hopeless and discouraging state of being, yet through which comes wisdom and knowledge. The good news (gospel) is the revelation (unfolding) of those things that have been kept a mystery by design.
Creation is still in the making process: consciousness is still unfolding subconsciously; and all, at their varying appointed times, shall unfold incontrovertibly; acquiring perfect knowledge through experiencing the once unknown. Man can learn nothing except by allowing himself (yet directed by God) to explore consciousness beyond the apprehensive limit of his fear. Being made in the image of God, you cannot limit yourself below that which was set for you: for God found himself by not having inhibitions; in this found he wisdom: attaining true knowledge. Likewise shall all his creatures come to the conscious awareness of their true being: Divine Lights.

Every thing you see (all matter, and all transpirations) has its roots in the unseen world: (as man lives in constant motion in the seen world, so also is his spirit constantly in motion in the unseen world; at point of sleep, he transcends the seen into the unseen: the spirit never sleeps): the forms may change (vary), even as the trees; yet the essence remains the same. All matter originates and exist by virtue of a force: and this force exist out of a conscious (intelligent) energy known to man as God. Consciousness is the bases of all life, and the field of all possibilities; its nature is to unfold exponentially to its fullness: and the attainment of this fullness is the reconciliation of all of its molecules wholly to it (him), the source, even God.

Consciousness (Light) is limitless (unconstrainable); neither is there separation in consciousness, though it takes both the positive and the negative (two separate entities) to manifest it (light): for it is incontrovertible, regardless of how you self-justifyingly slice or dice it: for though malice may attack it, and ignorance may deride it; but in the end, there it is: unequivocal. And because consciousness has been proven, hence belief. It is one thing to believe; it is yet another thing (an experience) to see through the mind’s eye (perceiving beyond the flesh) that which you believe. For you cannot have faith in something non-existent: you have true faith only because that which you believe has been proven. It costs nothing to move from faith to sight: yet it is priceless to see, perceptively, the unseen.

All things you see, perceive, and believe, are limitable: these limitations are governed by emotional variableness (fear), prevalent due to an awareness of the unseen (unknown) world; preventing you from exploring consciousness beyond the apprehensive limit of fear.
Apprehensive limits serve as a gauge, a deterrent, and a test; yet implied by the prejudices of tradition (one’s social environment). And this emotional variableness known as Fear causes you to be apprehensive of the immutably pure and endearing emotion known as Love, which energy is emitted from the source of consciousness.

All feelings (emotional states) are transmittable (influential), being inter-connected: one’s emotional state is simply an extension of another’s; as emotional current flows through each and every element, all being filaments (reactors) of electrical current; and being a strand in this filament-web, the current that runs through the filament affects each strand equally, yet at varying times, according to the directional flow of current (energy). And this energy emanates from the source, which source is God, even as the brain sends signals through the nerves to all parts of the body. Therefore there is no Self, but a conglomerate of multifaceted molecules: filaments.

Find freedom in learning that the elements that surround you (in both realms), and the way in which they affect your outer being, are set up to refine your inner being (the true you) into a perfect holy spirit-being (Holy Ghost). Fear comes through ignorance; but in discerning the timeline (time allotment) of the outer being, and the timelessness (eternalness) of the inner being, fear then is excommunicated. For once all matter (outer beings) become extinct, then death (time limiter: constrainer) becomes powerless: destroyed.

But then, due to the bondage of fear, (as fear is the catalyst of self), man strives with himself against the freedom to learn that of which he is. To which I ask: Do you stop for a minute to wonder within if that which you suppose you know is the fullest knowledge: the end of all learning? For if it was, you would know the mystery of God, which obviously has remained veiled to man by divine design; to be revealed as denoted in Revelation 10: 7 and 3: 17-20, and in both the Qu’ran and the Torah. True knowledge is to recognize the extent of one’s own ignorance: for until you become reconciled to the source of consciousness, you know only that which was allowed you: (see Job 38: 11, 28: 21, and 11: 6-12). You do not know what you need not know; but at each appointed time you shall know what you need to know, as there is a preordained time for all things. To a simplified (humble) living, the law of the universe has no bearing.
As to the unfolding of the divine mysteries, the power and the wisdom of God, discern its relativity to the first and to the last comings: for thus it is written, Unto all who are called, Jews (at the first) and Greeks (the West, at the last), is Christ the power of God (at the first), and the wisdom of God (at the last: In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge). For the Jews (at the first) require a sign (hence the miracles), and the Greeks (the West) seek after wisdom (practical discernment: scientific relativity): but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling-block, and to the Greeks foolishness (supposing to know, yet reveling in ignorance).

The birth of man is the beginning of his sorrows, as he enters a world of delusion. The longer he lives in it, the more deluded he becomes, as his anxiety to avoid unavoidable death becomes more and more acute: thus he invents age-defying processes, anxiously reaching for that which is out of reach: when all he has to do is be. His thirst for survival in the future makes him incapable of living in the present: thus he says to the Holy Spirit who is directing his life’s steps, “Not now, I am busy”, (preoccupied with worthless matter, which is subject to time). Thus he must be born again: not once, but twice (John 3: 5). For unless you become as a little child, you cannot perceive the things of the kingdom of heaven (the unseen world).

Being born again by the word (water, as in John 3: 5 and Ephesians 5: 26) does not mean hearing the gospel and professing John 3: 16; but awakening to Christ through the word (wisdom). And awakening is not seeing new things (elements of nature) or receiving enlightening insights: it is the fluorescence of one in the light of true consciousness: for the mystery of life is not a problem to be solved (for the equation has been solved); but a reality to be experienced. It is finding yourself in a new vista, from where you look back at the path you have walked, and the being that you were. From this point you evolve into perfection, upon your translation.

The energy of the sun is like unto the spirit: discern the sun in its cycle, and relate it to the spirit: for it is one with the cycle of consciousness. At reconciliation, the incandescent is transformed into a fluorescent: at which point one no longer is a filament, but becomes a radiant (Spirit). What good then is the delusive ornament he strives to nourish while as yet an element in his refining process?
Man lives a life he cannot see, in a world which though he sees, yet does not perceive, nor comprehend; as, in his haste, being preoccupied with his deluded goals, nature blurrily goes by. If he cannot see the elements of nature, which are before his eyes, how then can he perceive the things which cannot be seen (of the unseen world)? The forces of the unseen world direct the elements of the seen (natural) world. That which you see, which you experience, is simply a reflection of what the real you, the spirit, is going through in the unseen world: for the outer being bears the burdens of the inner being (see Psalm 84: 2, 42: 1&2, and 63: 1&2). All you have to do is be; submitting to the power that directs your very steps through your making process: for it is God which is working in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure; thus it is foolish to resist.

The world’s current state of polarity is the preparing of man for the unfolding of truth. In your making, the outer being bears the burden of the inner being, until he realizes the foolishness of bearing such worthless burdens, and finds the simple resolve of the inner being unto reconciliation to his true being: finding one’s corporate membership (see 2nd Peter 1: 19 and Malachi 4: 2). It does not matter what you asseveratingly hold as truth: what matters is what IS (I AM). Thus the end of all exploration is to know the beginning.

In today’s world, time has become man’s master: time was not created to rule you, but to keep you abreast. The flesh is limited in time, but the spirit is timeless. Man wastes much energy and life force striving with time; and this is simply because his main concern is about the time constrained flesh he is snared in, instead of the timeless and priceless spirit that is his true being. When you allow time to dictate your choice and state of being, you limit yourself to a restrained world governed by man, who himself is governed by the idol of Self, and so on in an endless cycle of bondage (enslavement).

There is a time and season for all things: but only as a point of reference in the unfolding mystery of consciousness; unto the fullness of divine illumination, at the point of reconciliation to the source of conscious energy. Submit to the fashioning of your inner being, and allow it to guide your outer being through its allotted time. Believe in that which you are being fashioned to become; and learn who you are, and the reason and beginning of your being.
Wisdom states, The fear (awesomeness) of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge. If you start with God, you will understand all things; but if you rely on man’s ingenuity, you will be snared in confusion, confoundedly. Now discern creation:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (two kingdoms: fashioned after his image): a foreword to creation and its making. For the purpose of creating the earth came by virtue of the dual image of God, and the pervasion of darkness: for in the beginning darkness pervaded the face of the deep (space), which deep is wisdom, which wisdom is God; therefore knowledge was, at this point, non-existent; as God could not perceive his wisdom: thus, conscious of his dual image, positive and negative, he commanded light to be, and he became: thus perceiving (unveiling) his wisdom.

With this transpiration came knowledge: for God then saw (learned of) the light (the wisdom of conscious energy), that it was good: thereby realizing the evilness of darkness; and began the process of eliminating (separating) darkness from his being: discern Proverbs 3: 19. Thus, in the beginning, Genesis 1 referred to him as God; but upon perceiving his wisdom, attaining knowledge through creation, and separating himself, he then became the LORD God, which regard began in Genesis 2: 4. Discern Exodus 3: 14 as written in Hebrew: EHEYEH ASHER EHEYEH; meaning, I WILL BE THAT WHICH I WILL BE: (wholly Holy: upon full reconciliation).

It is written, It is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure: for you are that part of him pervaded by darkness. That which God is doing in you, he is doing for his good pleasure, in transforming his eternal body (which members of you are: see Ephesians 2: 21&22) into his chosen likeness (Holy: Light). God became aware of his dual nature, and realized the dark side of his being (the negative) was preeminent, overshadowing his positive side. As with a battery, to generate light, you must connect to both the positive and the negative: thus, to generate light, God connected unto his twain image (as denoted in Isaiah 45: 7, and in Ephesians 2: 15: For to make in himself of twain one new man). Having learned the goodness of light, through which wisdom came to life (came alive), God began to conceive (create) the process with which to completely cleanse (separate: rid) himself from the evil of darkness.
To cleanse a contaminated absorbable object, you must break it down into little particles (molecules), and run them through a chemical purification process (refinement): thus God broke his body down, through the process of reproduction, into molecules known as man; setting each one, being intrinsic members of the whole, on a purification course known as Afflictive Tribulation, in a laboratory known as the World, through a painstaking and longsuffering process of purifying each member, using natural elements that reactively affect man’s chemical balance, in reforming the complete body. And the conception of the method by which God broke down his body he conceived through creation; and he started by separating wisdom (symbolized as water): the spiritual from the worldly.

Now discern this parable, as presented by Buddhist folklore: Two traveling monks reached a river, where they met a young woman, who, being weary of the current, asked if they could carry her across. One of the monks hesitated; but the other monk quickly picked her up onto his shoulders, and transported her across the water, and put her down on the other bank. She thanked him, and departed. As the monks continued on their way, the one monk was brooding and preoccupied. Unable to hold his silence longer, he spoke out, saying, “Brother, our spiritual training teaches us to avoid any contact with women, but you picked that woman up on your shoulders and carried her.” “Brother,” said the second monk, “I sat her down on the other side, but you are still carrying her.” Do not allow legalism to distort righteous love, even God’s righteousness.

And now discern this mystery in Joshua 3: 2-4: It came to pass after three days, that the officers went through the host; and they commanded the people, saying, When you see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then you shall remove from your place, and go after it (follow). Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure (about two thousand years between the first and the last comings, signified by the two cherubims shadowing the Mercyseat): come not near unto it (but observe it as you follow), that you may know the way by which you must go: for you have not passed this way heretofore (prior). And understand that the Jordan river empties into the Dead Sea: therefore crossing it is overcoming it in purification, as all shall do by grace: as denoted in verse 17.
Back to the refining process: To commence on this process, the refinery (the natural world) had to be built, and the elements (perils) put in place, and then the body had to be biologically broken down into molecules in the refinery, to be sent through the process, and reformed back in purity (holiness) as whole, ready to be reconciled to the head: thereby making the LORD God wholly Holy.

The refinery had to have its by-laws, known as World Wisdom; thus the waters (wisdom) were divided: the spiritual to the heavens (the unseen world), and the natural to the earth (the seen world: carnality). But then, as was with the spiritual at the beginning, the wisdom of the natural had to start from zero: hence Dry land. And after this came the concept of reproduction: thus the vegetation was created, each having seed and bearing fruit, whose seed was in itself. Then came the elements and chemicals (gases) required to furnish the refinery. After which came the concept of flesh in the conception of the mammals (starting with the whales), and the concept of the angels (as with the fowls of the air). After which God then made man in his image as Adam (male and female), and then commenced the process of refinement unto perfecting his eternal body as Holy, rid of all impurities (all darkness).

Now understand this, No man, being lost to self (ego), can be made to learn what he does not want to learn: if pressured, he might learn of it, but he will not know it. Only when he seeks to know it will he make the commitment to learn it. It is something you find from within, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, of whom you are; yet experience from without, as the Spirit directs your steps. If you are grounded on the foundation of the scriptures and Christ, as many claim to be, you should be able to discern any text (doctrine) without fear, and perceive what is or isn’t (truth): such a one is weaned from the milk. In the war of life, fear always brings with it false hope: but true hope can only be found in love. Right before the end, fear might present a form of false victory; but at the very end, love overcomes, thereby putting fear to shame, to the glory of love.

The mystery regarding life is that as the righteous work of God unfolds, so do the secrets of life; but as you cannot see dough rising, so also can you not see God’s righteous work as it unfolds: thus it might seem to the naked eye as if nothing is changing.
The soul will have attained the fullness of incontrovertible consciousness; yet it will seem as if there’s been no change. The power of the world to come is being transmuted in all; yet it cannot be perceived in its mutation: in the end, all shall find themselves perfected. Thus it is written, Whosoever shall fall on this stone (Love), which the builders rejected (being self-righteous), shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Thus Paul confessed, saying: For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father (God) of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, (being one with him), that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, (in keeping with his righteousness), to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man (the true you); that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith, (as you also become transformed into Christ: Love); that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints the very breadth, length, depth, and height (of the mystery of the righteous work of God); and to know the love of Christ, (which is manifested unto all, to become permeated in all), which surpasses knowledge, (which fullness of, man, in his conceit, is yet to know), that you might be filled with all the fullness of God.

But to be filled with the fullness of God, you must apprehend first the knowledge of his righteous work; for which Paul confessed, Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended, (yet many seem to think they have no need for further knowledge of the kingdom of God; supposing to know all there is to know; ignorant of their unclothedness): but this one thing I do, forgetting those things that are behind, (leaving behind that which has been fulfilled), and reaching forth unto those things which are before (ahead), I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

You are a greater witness than the literal word when you become the word. There comes a time in your transmutation when you internalize (embody) the scriptures (Word), even as did Jesus: this is what being born of the word (water) is; and after this you are on your way to be born of the Holy Spirit as Holy Ghost, after the similitude of Christ: (John 3: 5 and Romans 1: 4). And now discern the gospel of the kingdom of God as it unfolds; for which course you were told, Seek first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness.

Preface

Dearly beloved of the Father in heaven: be you Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Moslem, or of any other faith, or heathen; grace to you, and peace be unto you. Though you segregate yourselves confoundedly, yet know that you are all heirs of the one true and faithful God. Deep within, you believe there is a greater being, though you see him not: this is faith, implanted within all; and his essence is your very being, making all equally precious. And the foundation of every faith is called Christ: indicated symbolically in the beliefs of each faith, in varying terms; else there is no faith. For each name (term) used to identify each faith simply means Believer.

O straying precious sheep; the reason for the knowledge you have always sought of life, and of God, is being made manifest unto you, to the end that you be reconciled to God in his living likeness. Therefore be of good cheer: for your Salvation is at the door: even the last (Omega). For by grace are you saved through faith; and not of yourselves: but the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast; but of the quickening of the Spirit: for you were once dead in sins against God, and in trespasses against each other; and when you were yet dead in sins, were you quickened together with Christ, by whose grace you are saved from sin, looking unto the finish, the peace offering, unto reconciliation: for your works cannot perfect you, being flawed. This is the exceeding greatness of the power and wisdom of God toward all who believe in him (both faithful and heathen). And in this shall the sacrifice of the Gentiles also be acceptable: the marriage supper: being sanctified by the Holy Ghost: for the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.

And, though being sanctified of the Spirit in the consolation; yet, as ordained, only through much travail shall you enter into the kingdom of God, after the order of the first begotten, being fellow heirs: thus partakers of the sufferings of the great tribulation, the travail of birth, which God spoke of by the mouth of his holy prophets. For, while you feel at home in the flesh, you are absent from the LORD: therefore mortify the flesh daily, that the Spirit might be prevalent in you. For as they that knew Christ after the flesh knew him no more after the flesh, but after the Spirit; so must you also no longer glorify the flesh, that the soul might be glorified.
Of the consolation: O Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall (is) he come forth to me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting (preordained). Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she (Zion) which travails has brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren (Gentiles) shall return unto the children of Israel (as a body of believers). And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace (Salem) when the Assyrian shall come into our land (into the land of Ephraim: US): when he shall tread in our palaces (even the towers).

Peter said to you: Repent, all of you, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the LORD; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached to you, (which mystery is significantly hidden within the doctrine of all faiths): whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Therefore discern this sign of the time, you who suppose that the kingdom of God should immediately appear: The kingdom of God is likened to a certain nobleman who went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return: yet know that as a snare shall his return be. For the kingdom of God comes not with observation: neither shall they say, Look, there he comes! for he would already be in your midst. For as the lightening, that lightens one part under heaven (the first), and shines also unto the other part under heaven (the last); so shall also the Son of man be in his day. To he that has perception: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: he that opens up to me shall receive of me the bread of life from above.

*He that alters the words of this testimony, or sells this book for personal gain, seeks to exalt his idolatrous self, and is in danger of experiencing the wrath. As you receive freely of the wisdom and knowledge of God, so also pass on freely unto your brethren.

cgift:

KAG,

those of us who understand and live by prophecy know that it is about Catholicsim.

Of course! I keep forgetting that each sect and/or individual that manages to interpret the Bible in a certain way is the sole example of a True Christian^TM, and all others that don't agree, are defective in some way. I mean, I could go the xtra mile of googling and then showing you the interpretatins of other Christians (who probably believe that they understand and live by "prophecy", but what would be the point.

The Word of God has never failed in its fulfilment right from Daniel to Revelation.

Except when it has, but that's another topic.

They have all happened at one point in time or the other. History is there for the records for all to see.

I certainly agree that history is there and the reality can be seen.

The Vatican is the beast and the LovePeddler of revelation. The papacy is the tool of the antichrist whose over dozens of the so-called official titles all add up to 666, the number of man, the beast whose deadly wound was healed!

It is very simple.

I'm just glad I don't share your mindset or "logic" - if there was God I'd be thanking her.

KAG:


I'm just glad I don't share your mindset or "logic" - if there was God I'd be thanking her.

Can c there is no point for further engagement.

cgift:

Can c there is no point for further engagement.

There was prior engagement? At what point?

@andrew3338
It's rather sad that you choose to display your level of ignorance in a public forum. Perhaps the joy of controversy seems to have deprived you of any sense of moderation. You castigate christian brothers and sisters with in your overwhelming ignorance as to the foundation of their doctrine. The catholic doctrine is the first and oldest surviving christian doctrine and it is by no means secret. You can most readily find materials to educate you on who a catholic is.
Let me introduce you to a fundamental catholic by restating to you the basis of our belifes as stated in the nicene creed

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered death and was buried; and on the third day He rose again as the Scriptures had fore-told; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Are you more christian than those who proffess, practice and live by this creed?
Take some instructions from Proverbs 21:23

@tomX:

Are you more christian than those who proffess, practice and live by this creed?
Take some instructions from Proverbs 21:23

We are waiting for those who have made a creed of taking the divine titles of God and ascribing them to Mary - are they more "Christian" than those who know that Mary is NOT the following:

* She is NOT the "Glory of Israel" (GOD is the Glory of Israel - Isaiah 60:19)

* She is NOT the "HOPE" of the Christian (Christ is the HOPE of the Christian - 1 Tim. 1:1)

* She is NOT the LIGHT of the Christian (The LORD is the Light of believers - Psalm 27:1 and John 8:12)


WHY has the Catholic Church taken the divine titles of GOD and ascribed them to Mary?!?

@pilgrim
You latch unto what ever claims you've made like a pit bull and simply refuse to let go even when proven wrong.

She is NOT the "Glory of Israel

You made this claim in some other thread claiming it originated from the Litany of Loreto . I've given you refrences where you can download the litany and verify your claim. If you have any different material then present them and let them speak for themselve rather than making more furoe.
base your criticism on proven facts (if any) and not on smear campaigns.

My bad!!!
I just refered to the previous thread and seen your replies and I'm going through them. I will check out the sites and let you know what I think.
My appologies for not checking that first.

@tomx,

@tomX:

@pilgrim
You latch unto what ever claims you've made like a pit bull and simply refuse to let go even when proven wrong. . .

base your criticism on proven facts (if any) and not on smear campaigns.

@tomX:

My bad!!!
I just refered to the previous thread and seen your replies and I'm going through them. I will check out the sites and let you know what I think.
My appologies for not checking that first.

Okay - no worries. Thanks for your patience.

@pilgrim.1
Okay here it is. Seen the alternative Litany and compared with mine and seen the diffrences and it still does not change much. Why? Well for starters we could waste a lot of steam argueing over which site is the real McCoy and it could well be that none of them is. Almost anyone can write something and post it online. It doesn't make that material authoritative. So I'm not going to go along that line.

There is a fundamental starting place for everything - a foundation so to speak - and everything else builds up from there. The foundation of the Catholic faith as I was taugt from childhood is as is stated in the Nicene Creed. Everything else is one level removed. You can spend your whole life carrying a rosesary about making alot of fuss about relics and stuff and not even have a clue what christianity is about. The fundamentals of your faith is what grounds you in.

The catholic faith has evolve over the centuries (I'm not a historian so might be shaky on this) and there have been some defining periods when certain custom got introduced into the customs of the church. My belife is that most of this customs were introduced to bolster up the faith of adherents in the wake of the vairous apostacy and herecies that have dogged christianity right from the days of the appostles. It probably didn't help matters that at certain periods in history the church became dancing partners with the crown(s) of Europe (religion and politics shouldn't mix). People capitalised on relics to milk the peasant laity dry and naturaly relics became a booming business for wealth seekers lurking in the church.

One can not remove traditions of various forms from christianity (any denomination). It can sometimes get ugly especialy when you consider the fact that in christianity, democracy is not the other of the day. You accept the house rules or leave. The house rules also bends depending on the bias of the Leaders.

I've taught for many years in the foundation bible school and sunday school of Pentecostal Fellowship. We have gone through their own doctrine with open mind compareing scriptures with scriptures and laying line upon line and at the end, in the face often opposite (biblical views) on some issues, the leadership will have to take a stand, after due prayers and meditation, belivieng with a clear consience that as long as the fundamentals are based on the scriptures the body of the doctrine though open to other interpretations, will stand.

Controversies in christendom arise when we try to tailor those non-fundamental parts to our own views
--cover hair in preyer vs dont cover hair
--saints will be raptured b4 tribulation vs saints will be tried by tribulation
etc.

so lets stick with the fundamentals.
The fundamentals of the Catholic church as I know it (I stand corrected) is as is described in the Nicene Creed. Anything else is one level remeoved.
The fundamentals are scriptural (100%) and cannot be shaken.

We are taught that there are blessings in praying the Rosary for instance, nobody ever said if you don't pray the rosary then you don't get blessed or go to heaven. The rosary was introduced into the church at certain points in it's history but it is not fundamental to the church (the catholic church existed b4 the rosary).

If you don't find faults with the fundamentals then let it lay. If you beat at the add-ons for the next hundred years you don't get any where. People have been doing that for centuries (not only in christiandom). No denomination is 100% compliant. There is always something that is open to personal interpretation and these thing do get ugly.

So please ENOUGH ALREADY with making the Catholic church the whipping boy of Christiandom

Hi again @tomx,

@tomX:

@pilgrim.1
Okay here it is. Seen the alternative Litany and compared with mine and seen the diffrences and it still does not change much. Why? Well for starters we could waste a lot of steam argueing over which site is the real McCoy and it could well be that none of them is. Almost anyone can write something and post it online. It doesn't make that material authoritative. So I'm not going to go along that line.

I was hoping to see something to the gist about the Catholic tenet of holding Mary as the "GLORY of ISRAEL" - just to show indeed that I had ferreted articles from wrong, or rather "NON-Catholic" sources. It would seem to me that your response simply puts paid to the fact, and indeed Catholicism actually holds that and other stated appellations to MARY.

@tomX:

There is a fundamental starting place for everything - a foundation so to speak - and everything else builds up from there. The foundation of the Catholic faith as I was taugt from childhood is as is stated in the Nicene Creed. Everything else is one level removed. You can spend your whole life carrying a rosesary about making alot of fuss about relics and stuff and not even have a clue what christianity is about. The fundamentals of your faith is what grounds you in.

True that - concerning the fundamentals of Christianity as a good start point. However, I don't carry a rosary, since I'm not Roman Catholic. The reasons why I even discuss the issues of the relics at all is to help Catholics reflect on the fact that Catholicism is a DEPARTURE from the purity of the Christian faith, so those who can have the boldness to face up thereto may also come back to God's WORD.

@tomX:

The catholic faith has evolve over the centuries (I'm not a historian so might be shaky on this) and there have been some defining periods when certain custom got introduced into the customs of the church. My belife is that most of this customs were introduced to bolster up the faith of adherents in the wake of the vairous apostacy and herecies that have dogged christianity right from the days of the appostles. It probably didn't help matters that at certain periods in history the church became dancing partners with the crown(s) of Europe (religion and politics shouldn't mix). People capitalised on relics to milk the peasant laity dry and naturaly relics became a booming business for wealth seekers lurking in the church.

I see your point.

@tomX:

One can not remove traditions of various forms from christianity (any denomination). It can sometimes get ugly especialy when you consider the fact that in christianity, democracy is not the other of the day. You accept the house rules or leave. The house rules also bends depending on the bias of the Leaders.

Again, I see your point. However, I'd rather be persuaded that God has always recommended that believers leave a system that is contrary to His WORD, nevermind that such a system may claim to be "Christian".

@tomX:

I've taught for many years in the foundation bible school and sunday school of Pentecostal Fellowship. We have gone through their own doctrine with open mind compareing scriptures with scriptures and laying line upon line and at the end, in the face often opposite (biblical views) on some issues, the leadership will have to take a stand, after due prayers and meditation, belivieng with a clear consience that as long as the fundamentals are based on the scriptures the body of the doctrine though open to other interpretations, will stand.

Okay.

@tomX:

Controversies in christendom arise when we try to tailor those non-fundamental parts to our own views
--cover hair in preyer vs don't cover hair
--saints will be raptured before tribulation vs saints will be tried by tribulation
etc.

so lets stick with the fundamentals.
The fundamentals of the Catholic church as I know it (I stand corrected) is as is described in the Nicene Creed. Anything else is one level remeoved.
The fundamentals are scriptural (100%) and cannot be shaken.

It is true that the fundamentals are Scriptural and cannot be shaken. That is why all else that are one level removed should be removed indeed! As individuals, we can help on this by both exposing the departures and then sharing Biblical truths as well. To be complacent with these disturbing issues is definitely not the way to go.

@tomX:

We are taught that there are blessings in praying the Rosary for instance, nobody ever said if you don't pray the rosary then you don't get blessed or go to heaven. The rosary was introduced into the church at certain points in it's history but it is not fundamental to the church (the catholic church existed before the rosary).

I would not be so in agreement with your view here. In the first place, we know that Catholics are called upon to hold and cherish ALL tenets of the Catholic faith; and especially for leaders, this is crucial, as it may be a deciding factor to their election (e.g., Popes and anti-Popes). Just as it is a serious matter for Catholic leaders to jettison any tenet of Catholicism, so it is for the Christian to embrace the indefensible traditions of the Vatican! It is upon the rejection of Catholicism that the Popes predicate that non-Catholics are without salvation!

@tomX:

If you don't find faults with the fundamentals then let it lay. If you beat at the add-ons for the next hundred years you don't get any where. People have been doing that for centuries (not only in christiandom). No denomination is 100% compliant. There is always something that is open to personal interpretation and these thing do get ugly.

So please ENOUGH ALREADY with making the Catholic church the whipping boy of Christiandom

I'm sorry, because in reality these efforts are producing massive results!! Some may be sad, most are worth celebrating. At the personal level, 3 readers who have read my debates on Catholicism have LEFT the Catholic Church - 2 of them are now active evangelicals, the 1 is still carefully researching these issues, and we all keep in touch by emails. I've also benefitted immensely from the wealth of experience of one of them (now a very close friend) - and that is aside from the fact that another dear friend on Nairaland (lawyer) has departed from Catholicism, and is still open to consider what truths we may share. Added to this, there are now more than 110 emailers (73 of them from Catholics) who write me - most of which I have not had time enough to reply (I apologise to those who are yet to read from me - please be patient).

That's just on the personal level. Infact, when they read your rebuttal that the Litany of Loreto did not have the "Glory of Israel appellation" to Mary, my mailbox was inundated with queries that I should quickly address that issue or my integrity was hanging in the balance! I hope that they have read my replies - as well as checked the links I provided.

Now, when you look at the combined efforts of many others, you could imagine why Catholicism itself is facing a dire decline situation, especially in South America. If you need references to the fact, I could as well provide them.

All the same, do have a great day - and the Truth of God's WORD prevails.

Enjoy.

Hi @Pilgrim.1,
thanks again for your post. But in response I would say you took some thing out of context.

It would seem to me that your response simply puts paid to the fact, and indeed Catholicism actually holds that and other stated appellations to MARY.

My soft pedaling was because I happen to know that this kind of dbates have been on for centuries and will continue to remain for much longer. Their was no point in wasting further time on it. but if it will help clarify things , here we go again.

You've tried to make a point that catholics equate mary to God by alluding to her in the Litany of Loredo as the Glory of Isreal, well lets say for arguement sake that there are 1billion websites that say so, the statement still does not mean that Mary was equated with God:
The Litany in question was a prayer that venerated Mary amongst other things. Now when King David was reffered to as the "Ligth of Israel" in 2nd Samuel 21:17 did that equate him with God? When you go to court and Call the Judge "My Lord" or "Your Worship" does that equate him/her with God? Don't take veneration out of context. Mary was described in the bible as "Blessed among Women" and YES, WE VENERATE HER.
in reaction to a part of my post,

One can not remove traditions of various forms from christianity (any denomination). It can sometimes get ugly especialy when you consider the fact that in christianity, democracy is not the other of the day. You accept the house rules or leave. The house rules also bends depending on the bias of the Leaders.

you said,

Again, I see your point. However, I'd rather be persuaded that God has always recommended that believers leave a system that is contrary to His WORD, nevermind that such a system may claim to be "Christian".

Traditions have been a part of christianity right from the days of the Apppostles.
The Jewish christians practiced christianity differently from the gentiles. They all infused their traditions into it.
The fundamentals are laid out as a foundation. The traditions do not detract from it. It's the unnecessary controversies which people drag up about these traditions that get ugly. Appostle Paul addressed these things in his vairious letters. So in any denomination you either accept the tradition that goes with the fundamentals or leave. Wether it's the issues of covering hair, women holding priestly positions, women wearing of trousers, etc. Every denomination has a diffrent tradition that are based on interpretation/persuation of men. That is why there are denominations in the first case.

It is true that the fundamentals are Scriptural and cannot be shaken. That is why all else that are one level removed should be removed indeed! As individuals, we can help on this by both exposing the departures and then sharing Biblical truths as well. To be complacent with these disturbing issues is definitely not the way to go.

when I talk of things that are one-level-removed from the fundamentals I did not in any way mean that they are evil. Whats all this stuff with pentecostals carrying whit hankerchiefs to service and treating them like miracle stuffs. The appostles were not recorded to have done that. Paul said categoricaly that women should not braid their hair nor adorn themselves with Gold.Take a look around your congregation and tell us what you see. Circumcision or non-circumcision, these are choices we make. THEY ARE ONE LEVEL REMOVED, but no one is saying they should be removed from the church. It simply means that these traditions do not form the basis by which one may judge a doctrine to be sound.

I said,

We are taught that there are blessings in praying the Rosary for instance, nobody ever said if you don't pray the rosary then you don't get blessed or go to heaven. The rosary was introduced into the church at certain points in it's history but it is not fundamental to the church (the catholic church existed before the rosary).

you said,

I would not be so in agreement with your view here. In the first place, we know that Catholics are called upon to hold and cherish ALL tenets of the Catholic faith; and especially for leaders, this is crucial, as it may be a deciding factor to their election (e.g., Popes and anti-Popes).

Where there no popes in the catholic church before the Rosary was introduced. A lot of thing in the church are being reviewed and debated upon. Different cardinal hold different opinion on issues and when the Vatican take a stand after prayerfull deliberation, the decide what stays and what goes. WETHER YOU AGREE OR NOT IS NOT THE ISSUE.

You said,

I'm sorry, because in reality these efforts are producing massive results!! Some may be sad, most are worth celebrating. At the personal level, 3 readers who have read my debates on Catholicism have LEFT the Catholic Church,

In the time it took them to leave the catholic church how many left your denomination? How many more joined the catholic church? how many have left the denominations that the said "three" joined to go to other denominations? ABEG!!!!!!!!!!

The Catholic Church is the Most Universal denomination from the begining of Christianity and it will endure till the end.
GLORY TO JESUS AND HONOR TO MARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ALL TRUE CATHOLICS SHOULD PROUDLY SAY AMEN TO THAT.

I think they are christians.

how can they be xtian? they are not!

tomX,

My guy, you sound like a liberal catholic. Were you a priest, you stand to be uncerimoniously interdicted and excommunicated and branded an heretic. Your popes have said sevreally that anyon who does not believe in anyone of the traditions that have been instituted is already anathemised.

More lucidly, the traditions you have on pugratory, infant baptism, works as a means of salvation, the various blasphemies of the papacy, the unwavering devotion to mary, the legalisation of sin, the displacement of the second commandment which nullifies making and bowing down of/to images, the history of the RCC, and the avowed discouraging of reading the bible and interpreting it except based on what the popes and the slaves of the popes, priests say it is, is just some of the dogmas that shows the RCC is not of God.

The truth is, the doctrines of the catholic church is just same as that of pagan worship of those days xcept with a change of names. These things are too clear to see.

Escape!

Reading your post is like watching someone try to make omletes with potatoes.
Hear you:

cgift:

, More lucidly, the traditions you have on pugratory, infant baptism, works as a means of salvation, the various blasphemies of the papacy, the unwavering devotion to mary, the legalisation of sin, the displacement of the second commandment which nullifies making and bowing down of/to images, the history of the RCC, and the avowed discouraging of reading the bible and interpreting it except based on what the popes and the slaves of the popes, priests say it is, is just some of the dogmas that shows the RCC is not of God,

There are no biblical contradictions on the issues of infant baptism, your congregation may baptised only the grown up and thats for them.
Yes we venerate Mary and as she said in the bible "Hence forth all generations shall call me Blessed". Better to venerate the Mother of Christ than to run around pillars calling the wife of some General Overseer of Pastor "Mama".
Lagalisation of sin, please how does confession of sins and subsequent absolution for the penitent sinner equate to Legalisation. When you take your bath do you go around telling people that you just got entrenched in dirt. You are realy getting scrambled up.
Bowing down to images? The same Moses who brought down the Ten Commandments is the same one who raised up the serpent. An image of something beneath the heavens!!! Looking up to the serpent for salvation did not connote sin, not then, because they knew it wasn't the image that brought salvation but God. Generations latter, when the Isrealites look up at the same serpent as an authority of itself, it was Idolatary, and it had to be destroyed.
Have you met one Catholic out of the hundreds of millions that abound on this planet that say that when they genuflect before the cross of Christ or Kneel in prayer before and image of the saints that they are praying to the image? If I look at the picture of a patron saint and reflect upon the good works that God did on this Earth through that saint and used that as a focus of my prayer does that mean i am worshiping idols?
Prayer is a communication between Man and God. A third party like you is in no position to judge as to the efficacy ofy the prayer. When Hannah Prayer in the temple, a priest seeing the strange mode of worship called her drunk. When the appostle spoke the utterances of the spirit during pentecost, people called them drunk. We don't relly on the approval of people to tell us the efficacy of our prayers (we are Roman Catholics not Pharasees).

Every catholic I know has a bible and every Catholic Church I know Provide Bibles and bulletins for the benefit of the congregation and here you are boldly saying the Catholic church discourage the reading of the bible.

Escape! Yes Escape from your ignorance and hold your peace!!

Of course yes

I'd want to say a few words to Catholics. Your counter-arguments so far are hilarious. Rather than open the same Bible that the Catholic Church has boasted of canonizing, you've been offering excuses for the well articulated exposés that you read from pilgrim.1. Sad, but that is usually how far removed Catholics are from reality. I know - because I've been there once.

There are questions she had asked repeatedly. The one that I've been hoping that any sound Catholic apologist would deal with is this: "Why has the Catholic Church taken the divine titles of God and ascribed them to MARY?"

It is not a question that should solicit lame excuses. There are a few things we need to realize in that loaded question:

1. Is it true that Mary is called those titles that Pilgrim.1 has highlighted? If it is not true, then Catholics should state it so, and then show us with proof that Mary has not been called such. But what we see is a serious laugh, because even though someone tried to deny it, I held my breathe to see how she picked you apart cell by cell and made nonsense of that cover-face!

Even you here, mr tomx, I'm sorry to observe that your rejoinder to pilgrim.1's is seriously admitting to the fact that you can't deny the facts! Let's help stop deceiving ourselves. The one question I have here in mind for you is this:

                         Is Pilgrim.1 telling the truth, or she is not?

2. WHY then has the Catholic Church given those divine titles to MARY? I'm not sure that any Catholic has offered an answer to that question (which was one of the reasons forcing me to make this post). I don't even have an answer to that; and yet, we cannot deny that this is what the Catholic Church has done! Especially because she continues to ask if MARY has become our "God" to have merited such divine titles - quoting Isaiah 60:19. Nobody has explained to her the real meaning of what is meant by Mary being the "Glory of Israel", and even though I checked with the lame excuse that our Bishops have given for that, we have to come round the fact that Catholic scholars know that divine title is meant for none other than Jesus Christ.

3. What about the SKULL worship in the Catholic tradition? What answers have we given to the articulate response she made? Is that a false, ill-informed and non-existent practice in the RCC? Or is it a fact - as she has taken the time to show in her responses?
We should stop fooling ourselves here. Pilgrim knows what she's talking about (one could almost mistake her as a former Catholic - seeing that she has such deep knowledge about our own tradition, and yet so many of us have absolutely no clues as to what we think we know). We only tend to follow the Popes blindly, and if anyone is going to share truth with us, we attack her to our own detriment.

I know that many times we seem to struggle with these issues. But, like the Bible says, he that has an ear, let him (or her) hear.

RB.

@b.rent,

Thank you for yours. I just have one line to recall for the special attention of Catholics on the Forum:

b.rent:


Even you here, mr tomx, I'm sorry to observe that your rejoinder to pilgrim.1's is seriously admitting to the fact that you can't deny the facts! Let's help stop deceiving ourselves. The one question I have here in mind for you is this:

Is Pilgrim.1 telling the truth, or she is not?

Abeg una Catholics, could you kindly address that question?

Shalom.

@tomX :


Lagalisation of sin, please how does confession of sins and subsequent absolution for the penitent sinner equate to Legalisation.

The confessionl? That's a different ball game entirely. Cos i know the numbr of priests that have fallen through that means. I know the lewdness of too many priest who bask on the confessional to draw young female penitents to sin through the questions they ask. LEt me leave that issue for another day if God permits.

Back to the bone of contention: Have you heard of St. Liguori? Do you know that he said interalia, that a priest is permitted to fall seldomly in his book the Duties and Dignities of the Priest? and that such a preist should not be interdicted or excommunicated. Why do you think they hardly interdict pedophile priests/bishops in the RCC? Do you know the only punishment they give them is to transfer them to another diocess entirely?

St. Liguori also said that you can lie under oath in another of his publication. So what do you call that? Isn't that a legalisation of sin. Will get the book for you if you care. He states the priest is a superhuman but is allowed to fall into sin once in a while. Go and study more about the writings of St. Liguori which is one of the recommended publishers of the Vatican. Probably your priests may have it. Go and ask him.

@tomX :

Every catholic I know has a bible and every Catholic Church I know Provide Bibles and bulletins for the benefit of the congregation and here you are boldly saying the Catholic church discourage the reading of the bible.

But the same bible you claimed to canonise cannot support any of your ridiculous doctrines. Isn't that comical to you? If what you do cannot be traceable to Christ's sayings/teachings or any of his disciples, then it is overtly satanic and cannot be of God. It is of the anti-christ.

@tomX :

Escape! Yes Escape from your ignorance [/b]and hold your peace!!

You have IGNORANCE in abundance because you do not know even 2% of what catholicism is. We are exposing the secret of the Vatican to you and you are hre blindly arguiing and whinning on what does not hold water. Your serpent in Moses time, did they bow to it?
[b]
Let me put a poser to you amidst others: why is the cross of the pope inverted? Look at most of his seats? Is the cross inverted or not?

Many other posers are out there for you, go and answer them.

Hi @tomx,

How body? I'm still waiting for answer to the one querry I copped out from b.rent's earlier:

b.rent:


Even you here, mr tomx, I'm sorry to observe that your rejoinder to pilgrim.1's is seriously admitting to the fact that you can't deny the facts! Let's help stop deceiving ourselves. The one question I have here in mind for you is this:

Is Pilgrim.1 telling the truth, or she is not?

Of course, you certainly not obliged to answer; but it would have been nice if you attempted, though.

Nonethless, there are two lines in yours that caught my attention:

@tomX:

Yes we venerate Mary and as she said in the bible "Hence forth all generations shall call me Blessed". Better to venerate the Mother of Christ than to run around pillars calling the wife of some General Overseer of Pastor "Mama".

Just because the wife of some General Overseer or Pastor is called "Mama" does not justify the Mariolatry of Catholicism. In due course, perhaps, we shall have good occasion to look further into the central role of Mary in Roman Catholicism.

@tomX:

Every catholic I know has a bible and every Catholic Church I know Provide Bibles and bulletins for the benefit of the congregation and here you are boldly saying the Catholic church discourage the reading of the bible.

It is one thing to have a copy of the Bible; quite another thing to READ and STUDY it! It is obvious that Catholics know more about the Litanies than they do about the Bible!

Anycase, cheers.

You asked if the Blessed Virgin Mary is being equated to God when call the "Glory of Isreal".
I asked you if King David was being equated to God when he was call "the Light of Isreal" (2nd Samuel 21:17).
Was Melchisedec being equated with God whe he was refered to as "King of righteousness" and "King of peace"? (Hebrews 7:2)

cgift:

Let me put a poser to you amidst others: why is the cross of the pope inverted? Look at most of his seats? Is the cross inverted or not?

Many other posers are out there for you, go and answer them.

I'll let you answer your poser yourself (since you claim to be or used to be Catholic) so here are some clues to help you along
Who is the First Pope of the Catholic Church? (ans = Apostle Peter)
How did he die? (Ans = On an inverted Cross)