Can Evil Exist Without God? - Religion - Nairaland
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| Can Evil Exist Without God? by Nobody: 12:53pm On Jan 28, 2012 |
Many skeptics of Christianity claim that the existence of evil in the world proves that a good God cannot exist. I believe this viewpoint is exactly backwards. If you truly believe that there is evil in the world, then you must believe that there is good in the world as well. We can’t know what is wrong unless we know what is right. We can’t know a crooked line unless we know a straight line. We can’t know injustice unless we know justice. But if there is real good and real evil in the world, then there must be an ultimate standard, a measuring stick by which to judge goodness and badness. This measuring stick must be perfect, so that all moral activity can be compared to it, just like determining the straightness of any line requires a perfectly straight line by which to compare. Here is the argument summarized in short from: evil implies good , good implies a perfect standard by which to define it. Now, if you believe that there exists real, objective evil in the world – evil that any person from any place or time would agree is really evil – then you are stuck with admitting that there must be a perfect standard of goodness also in existence, a moral law. Where does this perfect standard of goodness come from? The Christian answer is that this standard originates in the nature of God. God’s own nature is the perfect standard of good, and God has always existed as the first cause of everything. If you’re a person who wants to escape this answer, you can claim that this moral law just sort of exists, like a floating “cloud” of goodness that just permeates the universe. But the Christian can ask: “Where did this floating ‘cloud’ of goodness come from?” You could say that the objective moral law, the perfect standard of goodness, comes from blind, purposeless, natural processes (the standard atheist account of everything that exists). The Christian can ask: “Why should anyone feel obliged to follow and obey a perfect moral standard that comes from atoms randomly banging together over billions of years?” I don’t think there is a good answer to that question. The person who wants to affirm the existence of evil while denying the existence of God finds himself caught in a deep hole of irrationality. He asks us to obey moral laws that come from rocks. Some atheists, like Nietzsche, saw where this hole was leading and bailed out quickly. They affirmed that there is no such thing as real moral evil in the world. What we think is evil is really just our personal preferences. You like to kill people and I don’t. I like red and you like blue. The consistent person who wants to affirm the existence of evil really must affirm the existence of a personal moral lawgiver – God. If you don’t think God exists, then you should stop complaining about all the evil in the world. You’re not making any sense. Article |
| Re: Can Evil Exist Without God? by buzugee(m): 2:45pm On Jan 28, 2012 |
Evil cannot exist without God. God created evil for his own use. isaiah 45 vs 7 amos 3 vs 6 lamentations 3 vs 38 proverbs 16 vs 4 |
| Re: Can Evil Exist Without God? by Nobody: 4:03pm On Jan 28, 2012 |
^^^^ And yes evil exists because God allows evil to afflict wicked people , hoping to bring them back to their senses and lead them to repentance. Problem is man is rock stubborn and in many cases they will rather coexist with evil than submit to God. Pharaoh comes to mind. Furthermore, it is funny that people say there is no God but yet attribute all the ills of society To him. God is good all the time. |
| Re: Can Evil Exist Without God? by lagerwhenindoubt(m): 5:27pm On Jan 28, 2012 |
frosbel: Good Evening @frosbel Genesis 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of [b]Good and Evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."[/b] Man, Angels, Demons were not created/designed to obey but to make a choice between Good and Evil, I am thinking God is the source of both. Otherwise Eve would not eaten had she not thought about what the serpent offered and made a choice to disobey God. Surely you must agree we are I also do not agree that majority attribute the ills of the world to God - SATAN is always the convenient scape goat for Man's problems - Jerry: 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? |
| Re: Can Evil Exist Without God? by Nobody: 6:49pm On Jan 28, 2012 |
lagerwhenindoubt: They were created with the ability to obey but not in a robotic fashion which agrees with your mention of choice between right and wrong. But God cannot be the source of evil, because he made everything perfect , though it might be more correct to say that God created us with an inbuilt awareness of good and bad. Otherwise Eve would not eaten had she not thought about what the serpent offered and made a choice to disobey God. Agree Surely you must agree we are Humans are stubborn by nature, it takes the power of the God to makes their hearts pliable and obedient. I also do not agree that majority attribute the ills of the world to God - SATAN is always the convenient scape goat for Man's problems - SATAN is the embodiment of the word EVIL itself , but is restricted in his dealings with man, in the sense that he is still under God's reign and cannot operate actively in personal or national lives except due to gross evil or a total rejection of the rule of GOD. Therefore SATAN operates in situations where people have totally given themselves over to moral deprivation and filthiness. Still all he can do is bring sickness and pain , but he does not hold the joker when it comes to the DEATH of man according to the new testament. Jesus Christ holds the key to death and life. |
| Re: Can Evil Exist Without God? by lagerwhenindoubt(m): 7:36pm On Jan 28, 2012 |
I had given up trying to make excuses for the 1: Can Good come out of Evil or vice-versa (We are talking at divine levels now since our human nature wobbles between Good and Evil) 2: Can a Poison hold a Cure - Can what is ultimately fatal also hold source of Life 3: Can a Bad Tree bear Good Fruits - Can the Incapable cause the Capable For me this question is not about Absolutes but about States and Conditions. it is an age-old unanswered philosophical question which leaves a whole lot of room for presumptions. If God is the source of Good (Morality is still a contestable philosophical theme) then the source of Evil could not possible have allowed God to exist or pre-exist existence in the first place (or vice-versa). unless the Conditions allow for a State of Good and Evil to exist but not in the same Space and Time (You cannot be Good and Bad in one instance). If I accept that God is the perfect standard for Good, who is the perfect standard for Evil - It cannot be Lucifer AKA SATAN (according to the Bible, Evil pre-dates Lucifer and the creation) - It is a dilemma I am too lazy to ponder --- so I accept that Evil is a Condition where the State of God does not exist, in other words, When the Cat is out the mice will play. |
| Re: Can Evil Exist Without God? by buzugee(m): 8:48pm On Jan 28, 2012 |
lagerwhenindoubt:your three questions are asking the same thing in a different way. and the answer is YES, good can and must come out of evil or the evil will get destroyed. when God said he created evil for his own purpose, he is saying he created evil so as to smack some sense into you so that you can revert to being good. humans only respond to pain suffering and misery. so thats why he created evil to inflict you with pain misery and suffering. however if you do not respond to the pain and suffering and you dont turn good, then you will ultimately be destroyed. so , yes, good can and is supposed to come out of evil. the second part of your question makes no sense. i think you are trying too hard to sound philosophical and like a deep thinker but failing at the attempt. good and evil can co-exist in the same space and time and this is the double edge sword of the human spirit. it can revert to being good or being evil. they both co-exist. always have and always will till the messiah returns and gives those who make it to the end a renewal of spirit to remove the evil and leave their Godly side last part of your question. satan and lucifer are two different things. satan is a spirit that works in cahoot with the lord while lucifer is a physical being or a group of beings that are against the Lord (american empire, the white man, the roman catholic church, the illuminati) Isaiah 14 vs 16 and isaiah 14 vs 12-13. what this scripture tells youis that in those days lucifer who made the nations tremble (with wars) will be thrown down from heaven (heaven is rulership on earth) down to the earth (they will become the slaves now. they will fall from rulership to being slaves). also says lucifer likes to ascend into the heavens ( NASA space programs )their kingdoms will be destroyed and those whom they have kept below them will now rule over them. revelation 13 vs 10, revelation 11 vs 18, also read the book of obadiah (very short book. just 1 page. tells you what will happen to lucifer (the king of the world). the european empire is basically lucifer. |
| Re: Can Evil Exist Without God? by buzugee(m): 9:01pm On Jan 28, 2012 |
why is the european empire lucifer ? since being in control of the earth job 9 vs 24, they have delighted in reversing everything that the lord has put in place 1. they formed religion and led the whole world stray 2. they put their images as the image of Christ when he is clearly described as a black man in the bible 3. abortion hence reversing what God has done 4.starting wars, building nuclear bombs and committing genocide 5. capitalism 6 chattel slavery 7 getting the whole world to eat pork, shrimps, lobster (all scavenger animals) 8 eating bloody meat (when it clearly states in the book of leviticus not to eat blood) 9 women equality (when the bible clearly states that women and men are not equal 10 prevalence and legalizing homosexuality 11 spreading diseases so as to control world populations 12 using other races for human experiments and infecting them with diseases (AIDS in africa, syphilis in black america, gonorrhea in guatemala ) 13 colonizing other races 14 unfair trade and making million starve while they accumulate all their resources 15 just about anything you can think of that the lord put in the bible, the white race, the european empire, the roman catholic church, illuminati have reversed it all. they delight in pissing off God. thats lucifer. satan and the lord work hand in hand. satan is basically the spiritual police man of the world. anyone who deserves a butt whooping, the lord use him to make that happen. lucifer works for himself and destroys people by himself for himself even though the lord will not let him destroy the people who worship him. the people who are right with him |
| Re: Can Evil Exist Without God? by lagerwhenindoubt(m): 9:38pm On Jan 28, 2012 |
Drats! And double drats! I am found. |
| Re: Can Evil Exist Without God? by claremont(m): 1:03am On Jan 29, 2012 |
frosbel:So according to your line of reasoning, ALL the people that evil supposedly happens to are wicked?! You see the reason why we say that religion is the only thing that can make a supposedly good person say/do bad things. |
| Re: Can Evil Exist Without God? by Nobody: 1:45am On Jan 29, 2012 |
claremont: Evil exists because of the poor choice our ancestor made by disobeying God, therefore giving SATAN a foothold in the affairs of mankind. Ever since this fall people have chosen to be evil and reject GOD altogether. "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil." - John 3;19 Surely you do not expect a judge to reward a criminal for bad behaviour, on the contrary he/she is punished according to the laws of the land. And we have the executors of that punishment , the police, prison officials etc. In this world, God has instituted laws that determine your destiny. "The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." = Galatians 6:8 If you continually flout God's divine laws , evil spirits will have the permission to invade the privacy of your life, don't blame God for this, it was that person's choice. These evil spirits are the executors of God's wrath , and they come with a baggage of sorts, such as depression, drunkennesses, intimate deviant behaviour, anger , financial loss and a host of other issues. "Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done." - Romans 1:28 |
| Re: Can Evil Exist Without God? by God2man(m): 7:29am On Jan 30, 2012 |
Thanks, frosbel, Great thread. God bless you. God2man. |
| Re: Can Evil Exist Without God? by UyiIredia(m): 7:54pm On Jan 30, 2012 |
lagerwhenindoubt: Okay. lagerwhenindoubt: I partly agree with this. I opine that God presented 2 alternatives but had one in mind to which they should conform to (i.e good). However, He didn't want to impose it upon them. lagerwhenindoubt: I agree. In fact, I think both christians and atheists fnd it hard to accept reconcile evil with God's goodness. I have made peace with the good and evil finding its source in God. The Christian cop-out that Satan made evil is facile for two reasons: First, God made the tree of knowledge of good and evil and acknowledged the fact that man had the capacity to know good & evil just like Him. Secondly, if God is supposedly not responsible for creating evil why would He create the being that is responsible for such ? lagerwhenindoubt: Of course, we would be complex for God to handle. He put a piece of His essence inside of humanity. Even a hardcore atheist knows that humans are a unique species, one that has made the most alterations to Nature bar none. lagerwhenindoubt: I don't bother myself with Satan. I'm okay with God. Besides, did Jesus bog Himself about devils ? Humans were (and still are) the major obstacle to His ministry on earth. |
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