You can also say He breaks His laws or suspends them bla bla,

Sometimes, a little honesty 'i have no answer' goes a long way,

musKeeto:

Tbaba, wonderful, just got new insight into Islam.

May Allah grant you goodness,

musKeeto:

You can also say He breaks His laws or suspends them bla bla,
Sometimes, a little honesty 'i have no answer' goes a long way,

That's what I don't get about religious people or people who insist on clinging to these obviouly made up stories.

Why does the universe exist?
I have no idea is a better answer than "invicible superman" known as allah/god did it so he can test u and then reward us with eternal life. Eternal life indeed.

As knowledge accumulates (not religious assumptions), we will know more about how the universe works and what else is out there. If we just accept that some desert people from the middle east have all the right answers in books that include things like about angels and dragon, then we are doomed.

Martian:

That's what I don't get about religious people or people who insist on clinging to these obviouly made up stories.

are you willing have a logical discussion about this 'obviously made-up story'? We will see if it makes sense or not,

tbaba12345:

are you want have a logical discussion about this 'obviously made-up story'? We will see if it makes sense or not,

I'm beyond "logical dicussions" about mythology maquerading as reality. There are a couple of ways to convince me about religious claims and they are, a physical manifestation of your god or a repeatable miracle like the instant healing of an amputee. I'm 100% sure that you can't deliver on those challenges, so every rhetorical jargon you will come up with will just sound like Snow white and the Seven Dwarves. Fairytales.

Allah is as real as Zeus.

@Op the answer to n.1,8 and 25 is something you should have know of cos the time in heaven is different from time on earth for every 1 year on earth is 1 day in heaven so counting the 6 days is only in the earthly way and not the way you see it and n.25 GOD did'nt create disease like hiv human themselves commit abomination by sleeping with animals and contacting it, cos GOD did'nt intend in anyway

GOD did'nt create human to sleep with animal,so whoever did so carry their cross and spread their sin to others as Adam n Eve did to human kind and make everyone suffer for their own sin

Actually, let me chip in this little bit: somebody was asking about time & sombodi was answering dat one year on Earth is one day in Heaven. I'm not condemning d reply, but I desire to add dat wat d Scriptures actually said was "like one day in Heaven" (i.e in comparison) & not absolutely "equal to one day in Heaven". Elsewhere in 2 Peter 3:8, d Bible says ", with the Lord one day is AS a thousand years, & a thousand years AS a day". Firstly I BLIV D WHOLE EVRITIN in d Bible is true bcoz of personnal conviction & experience. But now, I AM A PHYSICIST, & I know dis passage might seem so contradictory coz how can d two parts of it be true at d same time? However, the Holy Spirit revealed this truth to me in purely physics-framed terms: TIME DOES NOT EXIST IN HEAVEN ! There is no beginnin & there is no end.This is one reason why God was there, is there & will always b there. This is why torture in Hell is also everlasting. I hope I av bin helpful??

foluski:

But now, I AM A PHYSICIST, & I know dis passage might seem so contradictory coz how can d two parts of it be true at d same time? However, the Holy Spirit revealed this truth to me in purely physics-framed terms: TIME DOES NOT EXIST IN HEAVEN ! There is no beginnin & there is no end.This is one reason why God was there, is there & will always b there. This is why torture in Hell is also everlasting. I hope I av bin helpful??

I AM A PHYSICIST 

Martian:

I'm beyond "logical dicussions" about mythology maquerading as reality. There are a couple of ways to convince me about religious claims and they are, a physical manifestation of your god or a repeatable miracle like the instant healing of an amputee. I'm 100% sure that you can't deliver on those challenges, so every rhetorical jargon you will come up with will just sound like Snow white and the Seven Dwarves. Fairytales.

Allah is as real as Zeus.

No one is beyond a logical discussion. There are many things in our world that we do not see, that does not preclude its existence. Some are deducible from scientific experience and knowledge. We simply have no explanation for others but we know about their existence. e.g. the human mind.

Now i am willing to show you how by logical rationalization and evidences, how you can come to the conclusion of a transcendent being.

tbaba12345:

No one is beyond a logical discussion. There are many things in our world that we do not see, that does not preclude its existence. Some are deducible from scientific experience and knowledge. We simply have no explanation for others but we know about their existence. e.g. the human mind.
Now i am willing to show you how by logical rationalization and evidences, how you can come to the conclusion of a transcendent being.

Lets have a logical discussion about Pegasus, Perseus and the Invincible Cosmic Custodian.

I'm sure you looked at the sentence above and concluded that there is no "logical rationalization and evidences" that will make their existence logical or real. That's the same way I view your allah and his prophet. There is nothing to discuss.  Either make your trancendent being manifest physically or perform a verifiable miracle in the name of your god. If you can't do either, NO AMOUNT OF RHETORIC WILL MAKE SENSE because religious assumptions all fall apart without that little thing called FAITH.

Martian:

Lets have a logical discussion about Pegasus, Perseus and the Invincible Cosmic Custodian.
I'm sure you looked at the sentence above and concluded that there is no "logical rationalization and evidences" that will make their existence logical or real. That's the same way I view your allah and his prophet. There is nothing to discuss.  Either make your trancendent being manifest physically or perform a verifiable miracle in the name of your god. If you can't do either, NO AMOUNT OF RHETORIC WILL MAKE SENSE because religious assumptions all fall apart without that little thing called FAITH.

The first thing to establish is the existence of a creator, the name of the creator can then be deducted from our conclusions.

The Quran asks us to think and reflect, not just have blind faith,

30:8. Do they not reflect in their own minds? Not but for just ends and for a term appointed, did Allah create the heavens and the earth, and all between them: yet are there truly many among men who deny the meeting with their Lord [at the Resurrectio]

10:24. The likeness of the life of the present is as the rain which We send down from the skies: by its mingling arises the produce of the earth- which provides
food for men and animals: [It grows] till the earth is clad with its golden ornaments and is decked out [in beauty]: the people to whom it belongs think
they have all powers of disposal over it: There reaches it Our command by night or by day, and We make it like a harvest clean-mown, as if it had not flourished
only the day before! thus do We explain the Signs in detail for those who reflect.

30:21. And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and
mercy between your [hearts]: verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.

7:184. Do they not reflect? Their companion is not seized with madness: he is but a perspicuous warner.

So i am just asking you to think and reflect as we establish the fact of a creator, .

tbaba12345:

The first thing to establish is the existence of a creator, the name of the creator can then be deducted from our conclusions.[/b]The Quran asks us to think and reflect, not just have blind faith,
30:8.[b] Do they not reflect in their own minds? Not but for just ends and for a term appointed, did Allah create the heavens and the earth, and all between them: yet are there truly many among men who deny the meeting with their Lord [at the Resurrectio]
10:24. The likeness of the life of the present is as the rain which We send down from the skies: by its mingling arises the produce of the earth- which provides
food for men and animals: [It grows] till the earth is clad with its golden ornaments and is decked out [in beauty]: the people to whom it belongs think
they have all powers of disposal over it: There reaches it Our command by night or by day, and We make it like a harvest clean-mown, as if it had not flourished
only the day before! thus do We explain the Signs in detail for those who reflect.
30:21. And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and
mercy between your [hearts]: verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.
7:184. Do they not reflect? Their companion is not seized with madness: he is but a perspicuous warner.
So i am just asking you to think and reflect as we establish the fact of a creator, .

A long time ago, Olurun lowered a chain from the sky down to the Earth, which at that time was all water. He sent Obatala (either his son or a lesser god) down to Earth with a chicken, some dirt and a palm nut. Obatala used the chicken to spread dirt until there was dry land. Obatala planted the seed and started the first kingdom, Ile-Ife. He was the kingdom's first ruler and all of Yoruba are his descendants

tbaba12345:

The first thing to establish is the existence of a creator, the name of the creator can then be deducted from our conclusions.[/b]The Quran asks us to think and reflect, not just have blind faith,
30:8.[b] Do they not reflect in their own minds? Not but for just ends and for a term appointed, did Allah create the heavens and the earth, and all between them: yet are there truly many among men who deny the meeting with their Lord [at the Resurrectio]
10:24. The likeness of the life of the present is as the rain which We send down from the skies: by its mingling arises the produce of the earth- which provides
food for men and animals: [It grows] till the earth is clad with its golden ornaments and is decked out [in beauty]: the people to whom it belongs think
they have all powers of disposal over it: There reaches it Our command by night or by day, and We make it like a harvest clean-mown, as if it had not flourished
only the day before! thus do We explain the Signs in detail for those who reflect.
30:21. And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and
mercy between your [hearts]: verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.
7:184. Do they not reflect? Their companion is not seized with madness: he is but a perspicuous warner.
So i am just asking you to think and reflect as we establish the fact of a creator, .

In the beginning the earth was a bare plain. All was dark. There was no life, no death. The sun, the moon, and the stars slept beneath the earth. All the eternal ancestors slept there, too, until at last they woke themselves out of their own eternity and broke through to the surface.

When the eternal ancestors arose, in the Dreamtime, they wandered the earth, sometimes in animal form -- as kangaroos, or emus, or lizards -- sometimes in human shape, sometimes part animal and human, sometimes as part human and plant.

Two such beings, self-created out of nothing, were the Ungambikula. Wandering the world, they found half-made human beings. They were made of animals and plants, but were shapeless bundles, lying higgledy-piggledy, near where water holes and salt lakes could be created. The people were all doubled over into balls, vague and unfinished, without limbs or features.

With their great stone knives, the Ungambikula carved heads, bodies, legs, and arms out of the bundles. They made the faces, and the hands and feet. At last the human beings were finished.
Thus every man and woman was transformed from nature and owes allegiance to the totem of the animal or the plant that made the bundle they were created from -- such as the plum tree, the grass seed, the large and small lizards, the parakeet, or the rat.

This work done, the ancestors went back to sleep. Some of them returned to underground homes, others became rocks and trees. The trails the ancestors walked in the Dreamtime are holy trails. Everywhere the ancestors went, they left sacred traces of their presence -- a rock, a waterhole, a tree.

For the Dreamtime does not merely lie in the distant past, the Dreamtime is the eternal Now. Between heartbeat and heartbeat, the Dreamtime can come again.

tbaba12345:

The first thing to establish is the existence of a creator, the name of the creator can then be deducted from our conclusions.[/b]The Quran asks us to think and reflect, not just have blind faith,
30:8.[b] Do they not reflect in their own minds? Not but for just ends and for a term appointed, did Allah create the heavens and the earth, and all between them: yet are there truly many among men who deny the meeting with their Lord [at the Resurrectio]
10:24. The likeness of the life of the present is as the rain which We send down from the skies: by its mingling arises the produce of the earth- which provides
food for men and animals: [It grows] till the earth is clad with its golden ornaments and is decked out [in beauty]: the people to whom it belongs think
they have all powers of disposal over it: There reaches it Our command by night or by day, and We make it like a harvest clean-mown, as if it had not flourished
only the day before! thus do We explain the Signs in detail for those who reflect.
30:21. And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and
mercy between your [hearts]: verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.
7:184. Do they not reflect? Their companion is not seized with madness: he is but a perspicuous warner.
So i am just asking you to think and reflect as we establish the fact of a creator, .

Who made heaven and earth?
Who made insects?
Who made men?
Made male and made female?
I who speak don't know.
Heavenly King made heaven and earth,
Ziene made insects,
Ziene made men and demons,
Made male and made female.
How is it you don't know?
How made heaven and earth?
How made insects?
How made men and demons?
Made male and made female?
I who speak don't know.
[b]Heavenly King was intelligent,
Spat a lot of spittle into his hand,
Clapped his hands with a noise,
Produced heaven and earth,
Tall grass made insects,[/b]Stories made men and demons,
Made men and demons,
Made male and made female.
How is it you don't know?

Nice improvisation but it goes like this:

When we reflect upon our own existence we will come to the realisation, that at some point in time, we began to exist. Since we were once non-existent and are now in existence, it follows that we must have had a beginning. In light of this, the Qur’an raises some profound questions: were we created by nothing? Did we create ourselves? Or did we create the universe?

“Or were they created by nothing? Or were they the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heavens and earth? Rather, they are not certain.” Quran 52:35-36

Things that began to exist were either:-

1. Created or brought into being from nothing
2. Self caused or self created
3. Created or brought into being by something else that began to exist
4. Created or brought into being by a non-created or un-caused entity

We can look at each option step by step if you want,

tbaba12345:

Nice improvisation but it goes like this:
When we reflect upon our own existence we will come to the realisation, that at some point in time, we began to exist. Since we were once non-existent and are now in existence, it follows that we must have had a beginning. In light of this, the Qur’an raises some profound questions: were we created by nothing? Did we create ourselves? Or did we create the universe?
“[b]Or were they created by nothing? Or were they the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heavens and earth? Rather, they are not certain.” Quran 52:35-36[/b]Things that began to exist were either:-
1. Created or brought into being from nothing
2. Self caused or self created
3. Created or brought into being by something else that began to exist
4. Created or brought into being by a non-created or un-caused entity
We can look at each option step by step if you want,

In the beginning , the heavens and earth were still one and all was chaos. The universe was like a big black egg, carrying Pan Gu inside itself. After 18 thousand years Pan Gu woke from a long sleep. He felt suffocated, so he took up a broadax and wielded it with all his might to crack open the egg. The light, clear part of it floated up and formed the heavens, the cold, turbid matter stayed below to form earth. Pan Gu stood in the middle, his head touching the sky, his feet planted on the earth. The heavens and the earth began to grow at a rate of ten feet per day, and Pan Gu grew along with them. After another 18 thousand years, the sky was higher, the earth thicker, and Pan Gu stood between them like a pillar 9 million li in height so that they would never join again.

When Pan Gu died, his breath became the wind and clouds, his voice the rolling thunder. One eye became the sun and on the moon. His body and limbs turned to five big mountains and his blood formed the roaring water. His veins became far-stretching roads and his muscles fertile land. The innumerable stars in the sky came from his hair and beard, and flowers and trees from his skin and the fine hairs on his body. His marrow turned to jade and pearls. His sweat flowed like the good rain and sweet dew that nurtured all things on earth. According to some versions of the Pan Gu legend, his tears flowed to make rivers and radiance of his eyes turned into thunder and lighting. When he was happy the sun shone, but when he was angry black clouds gathered in the sky. One version of the legend has it that the fleas and lice on his body became the ancestors of mankind.

The Pan Gu story has become firmly fixed in Chinese tradition. There is even an idiom relating to it: "Since Pan Gu created earth and the heavens," meaning "for a very long time." Nevertheless, it is rather a latecomer to the catalog of Chinese legends. First mention of it is in a book on Chinese myths written by Xu Zheng in the Three Kingdoms period (CE 220-265). Some opinions hold that it originated in south China or southeast Asia.

There are several versions of the Pan Gu story.

Among the Miao, Yao, Li and other nationalities of south China, a legend concerns Pan Gu the ancestor of all mankind, with a man's body and a dog's head. It runs like this: Up in Heaven the God in charge of the earth, King Gao Xin, owned a beautiful spotted dog. He reared him on a plate (pan in Chinese ) inside a gourd (hu, which is close to the sound gu ), so the dog was known as Pan Gu . Among the Gods there was great enmity between King Gao Xin and his rival King Fang. "Whoever can bring me the head of King Fang may marry my daughter, " he proclaimed, but nobody was willing to try because they were afraid of King Fang's strong soldiers and sturdy horses.

The dog Pan Gu overheard what was said, and when Gao Xin was sleeping, slipped out of the palace and ran to King Fang. The latter was glad to see him standing there wagging his tail. "You see, King Gao Xin is near his end. Even his dog has left him," Fang said, and held a banquet for the occasion with the dog at his side.

At midnight when all was quiet and Fang was overcome with drink, Pan Gu jumped onto the king's bed, bit off his head and ran back to his master with it . King Gao Xin was overjoyed to see the head of his rival, and gave orders to bring Pan Gu some fresh meat. But Pan Gu left the meat untouched and curled himself up in a corner to sleep. For three days he ate nothing and did not stir.

The king was puzzled and asked, "Why don't you eat? Is it because I failed to keep my promise of marrying a dog?" To his surprise Pan Gu began to speak. "Don't worry, my King. Just cover me with your golden bell and in seven days and seven nights I'll become a man." The King did as he said, but on the sixth day, fearing he would starve to death, out of solicitude the princess peeped under the bell. Pan Gu's body had already changed into that of a man, but his head was still that of a dog. However, once the bell was raised, the magic change stopped, and he had to remain a man with a dog's head.

He married the princess, but she didn't want to be seen with such a man so they moved to the earth and settled in the remote mountains of south China. There they lived happily and had four children, three boys and a girl, who became the ancestors of mankind.

tbaba12345:

Nice improvisation but it goes like this:
When we reflect upon our own existence we will come to the realisation, that at some point in time, we began to exist. Since we were once non-existent and are now in existence, it follows that we must have had a beginning. In light of this, the Qur’an raises some profound questions: were we created by nothing? Did we create ourselves? Or did we create the universe?
[b]“Or were they created by nothing? Or were they the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heavens and earth? Rather, they are not certain.” Quran 52:35-36[/b]Things that began to exist were either:-
1. Created or brought into being from nothing
2. Self caused or self created
3. Created or brought into being by something else that began to exist
4. Created or brought into being by a non-created or un-caused entity
We can look at each option step by step if you want,

:1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 1:2Now the earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep. God’s Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.
1:3God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 1:4God saw the light, and saw that it was good. God divided the light from the darkness.1:5God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. There was evening and there was morning, one day.

Interesting stories but off topic;

I was trying to establish an argument for God's existence,

tbaba12345:

Interesting stories but off topic;
I was trying to establish an argument for God's existence,

Your convictions are as valid as those held by believers of the other bullsh#t stories I posted. You have as much chance of convincing me of any god's existence as people who believe the other stories . An Omnipotent entity shouldn't need a puny human to argue in it's favor. If your god exists, no need for arguments, just tell it to manifest physically.

Martian:

Your convictions are as valid as those held by believers of the other bullsh#t stories I posted. You have as much chance of convincing me of any god's existence as people who believe the other stories . An Omnipotent entity doesn't need a puny human to argue in it's favor. If your god exists, no need for arguments, just tell it to manifest physically.

Many of the things we know about today are not seen but we have some evidence they exist.

I am willing to give you a logical base for the existence of God and evidences to back that up. God willing

tbaba12345:

Many of the things we know about today are not seen but we have some evidence they exist.

Excluding scientific findings due to research, what are these things that you have evidence for?

tbaba12345:

I am willing to give you a logical base for the existence of God and evidences to back that up. God willing

Anything short of I don't know who/what created the universe is going to be laughed at. Martian willing.
BECAUSE NO ONE KNOWS. At least not yet.

Actually we have enough evidence to conclude on that

I only request that you read with a critical but open mind;

So we have established 4 possibilities for the existence of our universe:

1. Created or brought into being from nothing
2. Self caused or self created
3. Created or brought into being by something else that began to exist
4. Created or brought into being by a non-created or un-caused entity

Now let's examine each:

Created or brought into being from nothing

We know the universe couldn’t have come out of nothing, because out of nothing, nothing comes! This is an undeniable philosophical principle,

A significant point to raise here is that nothingness should not be misconstrued as the nothingness that some physicists talk about. The term nothingness in this context refers to the absence of anything physical, in other words there is no pre-existing ‘stuff’. In light of the beginning of the universe, there was absolutely nothing before it began to exist, which is why physicists have explained the universe as having a space-time boundary.

However, nothingness as defined by some physicists relates to the quantum vacuum. This is misleading because the quantum is something. In quantum theory the vacuum is a field of energy pervading the whole of the universe. In the word’s of John Polkinghorne, a philosopher of science, the quantum vacuum,

“…is not ‘nothing’; it is a structured and highly active entity.”

So, in context of some of the physicists’ definition, the universe could not have come from absolutely nothing, as the quantum vacuum is something. It is a sea of fluctuating energy, which is still part of the cosmos and it did not pre-exist the universe. This point leads us nicely to the next possible explanation.

Self caused or self created

Philosophically, the universe couldn’t have created itself because that would imply a paradox. It would mean that something can exist and not exist at the same time. The logical ends of this explanation are tantamount to saying that your mother gave birth to herself!

To assert that the universe created itself would be absurd and self refuting, because in order for something to create itself it would need to exist before it existed!

Created or brought into being by something else that began to exist

This is not an adequate explanation for the origins of the universe. The universe could not have owed its existence to another state of temporal physical existence. To maintain such an explanation would be equivalent of expanding the boundaries of the universe, as all things which have a temporal beginning exist within the universe. Also, if temporal physical existence owes itself to another temporal physical existence ad infinitum, it doesn’t explain anything. Rather it highlights the absurdity of an infinite regress, and that there has to be a beginning to the temporal physical states, which logically must be a non-physical state.

Take the following example into consideration. If the universe, U1, followed another temporal cause U2, and U2 followed another temporal cause U3, and this went on ad infinitum we wouldn’t have the universe U1 in the first place. Think about it this way, when does U1 come into being? Only after U2 has come into being. When does U2 come into being? Only after U3 has come into being. This same problem will continue even if we go to infinity. If U1 depended on its coming into being on a chain of infinite temporal causes, U1 would never exist. As the Islamic Philosopher and Scholar Dr. Jaafar Idris writes,

“There would be no series of actual causes, but only a series of non-existents, as Ibn Taymiyyah explained. The fact, however, is that there are existents around us; therefore, their ultimate cause must be something other than temporal causes.”


So now we have eliminated 3 options, we are left with one: Created or brought into being by a non-created or un-caused entity

Now this does not mean God, we can now analyse this last option

tbaba12345:

Actually we have enough evidence to conclude on that
I only request that you read with a critical but open mind;
So we have established 4 possibilities for the existence of our universe:
1. Created or brought into being from nothing
2. Self caused or self created
3. Created or brought into being by something else that began to exist
4. Created or brought into being by a non-created or un-caused entity
Now let's examine each:

Created or brought into being from nothing
We know the universe couldn’t have come out of nothing, because out of nothing, nothing comes! This is an undeniable philosophical principle,
A significant point to raise here is that nothingness should not be misconstrued as the nothingness that some physicists talk about. The term nothingness in this context refers to the absence of anything physical, in other words there is no pre-existing ‘stuff’. In light of the beginning of the universe, there was absolutely nothing before it began to exist, which is why physicists have explained the universe as having a space-time boundary.
However, nothingness as defined by some physicists relates to the quantum vacuum. This is misleading because the quantum is something. In quantum theory the vacuum is a field of energy pervading the whole of the universe. In the word’s of John Polkinghorne, a philosopher of science, the quantum vacuum,
“…is not ‘nothing’; it is a structured and highly active entity.”
So, in context of some of the physicists’ definition, the universe could not have come from absolutely nothing, as the quantum vacuum is something. It is a sea of fluctuating energy, which is still part of the cosmos and it did not pre-exist the universe. This point leads us nicely to the next possible explanation.
Self caused or self created
Philosophically, the universe couldn’t have created itself because that would imply a paradox. It would mean that something can exist and not exist at the same time. The logical ends of this explanation are tantamount to saying that your mother gave birth to herself!
To assert that the universe created itself would be absurd and self refuting, because in order for something to create itself it would need to exist before it existed!
Created or brought into being by something else that began to exist
This is not an adequate explanation for the origins of the universe. The universe could not have owed its existence to another state of temporal physical existence. To maintain such an explanation would be equivalent of expanding the boundaries of the universe, as all things which have a temporal beginning exist within the universe. Also, if temporal physical existence owes itself to another temporal physical existence ad infinitum, it doesn’t explain anything. Rather it highlights the absurdity of an infinite regress, and that there has to be a beginning to the temporal physical states, which logically must be a non-physical state.
Take the following example into consideration. If the universe, U1, followed another temporal cause U2, and U2 followed another temporal cause U3, and this went on ad infinitum we wouldn’t have the universe U1 in the first place. Think about it this way, when does U1 come into being? Only after U2 has come into being. When does U2 come into being? Only after U3 has come into being. This same problem will continue even if we go to infinity. If U1 depended on its coming into being on a chain of infinite temporal causes, U1 would never exist. As the Islamic Philosopher and Scholar Dr. Jaafar Idris writes,

“There would be no series of actual causes, but only a series of non-existents, as Ibn Taymiyyah explained. The fact, however, is that there are existents around us; therefore, their ultimate cause must be something other than temporal causes.

So now we have eliminated 3 options, we are left with one: Created or brought into being by a non-created or un-caused entity
Now this does not mean God, we can now analyse this last option

You must be fairly new here. Copy pasting some  apologist's jargon isn't going to convince anybody. You're not the first to mine bullsh#t form apologist websites, even jesoul the moderator used to do it to support her version of your desert mythology.

At the end of your copy and paste job, your conclusion is going to be ALLAH DID IT just like a christian apologist will conclude Jesus/God did it. Same sh#t different smell.

Martian:

You must be fairly new here. Copy pasting some  apologist's jargon isn't going to convince anybody. You're not the first to mine bullsh#t form apologist websites, even jesoul the moderator used to do it to support her version of your desert mythology.

At the end of your copy and paste job, your conclusion is going to be ALLAH DID IT just like a christian apologist will conclude Jesus/God did it. Same sh#t different smell.

I guess the question is,

Do you disagree with any of the assertions so far?, I want to engage and have an honest discussion here,

tbaba12345:

I guess the question is,

Do you disagree with any of the assertions so far?, I want to engage and have an honest discussion here,

lol, Seriously dude, physical manifestation or STFU.

Don't you think it is a little arrogant to request a physical manifestation of the lord of all that exists to you, a lowly human,

40:57. Assuredly the creation of the heavens and the earth is a greater [matter] than the creation of men: Yet most men understand not.

78:4. Verily, they shall soon [come to] know!
78:5. Verily, verily they shall soon [come to] know!

Later,

Safe.

@poster, talking about creation, christians are sure of adams exact years spent on earth & when he was created, a true christian never takes d view of creationists who believe that d earth was created in literal days, (1000yrs=1day), days in d bible does also refer to long periods of unknown times, adams existence can be truly calculated since we know adam lived for over 900 literal yrs,but all that existed b4 man created as d last on Gods last creation days had existed way back in unknown times or years, which culd amount to millions of years, and remember how genesis 1:1 tells us, in d beginning God created the heavens & d earth, no exact time range was pin pointed, d universe had long existed b4 man was created, so no true christian will tell u that creation days were actuallly literal days in Gods eyes, and becos God is omnipotent doesnt mean he doesnt control d use of his power, he controls them perfectly,& he also applied that wisdom in creation, he allowed his works manifest until they were good in his eyes,b4 he moved to d next,

@poster, talking about creation, christians are sure of adams exact years spent on earth & when he was created, a true christian never takes d view of creationists who believe that d earth was created in literal days, (1000yrs=1day), days in d bible does also refer to long periods of unknown times, adams existence can be truly calculated since we know adam lived for over 900 literal yrs,but all that existed b4 man created as d last on Gods last creation days had existed way back in unknown times or years, which culd amount to millions of years, and remember how genesis 1:1 tells us, in d beginning God created the heavens & d earth, no exact time range was pin pointed, d universe had long existed b4 man was created, so no true christian will tell u that creation days were actuallly literal days in Gods eyes, and becos God is omnipotent doesnt mean he doesnt control d use of his power, he controls them perfectly,& he also applied that wisdom in creation, he allowed his works manifest until they were good in his eyes,b4 he moved to d next,

tbaba12345:

Actually we have enough evidence to conclude on that

I only request that you read with a critical but open mind;

So we have established 4 possibilities for the existence of our universe:

1. Created or brought into being from nothing
2. Self caused or self created
3. Created or brought into being by something else that began to exist
4. Created or brought into being by a non-created or un-caused entity

Now let's examine each:

Created or brought into being from nothing

We know the universe couldn’t have come out of nothing, because out of nothing, nothing comes! This is an undeniable philosophical principle,

A significant point to raise here is that nothingness should not be misconstrued as the nothingness that some physicists talk about. The term nothingness in this context refers to the absence of anything physical, in other words there is no pre-existing ‘stuff’. In light of the beginning of the universe, there was absolutely nothing before it began to exist, which is why physicists have explained the universe as having a space-time boundary.

However, nothingness as defined by some physicists relates to the quantum vacuum. This is misleading because the quantum is something. In quantum theory the vacuum is a field of energy pervading the whole of the universe. In the word’s of John Polkinghorne, a philosopher of science, the quantum vacuum,

“…is not ‘nothing’; it is a structured and highly active entity.”

So, in context of some of the physicists’ definition, the universe could not have come from absolutely nothing, as the quantum vacuum is something. It is a sea of fluctuating energy, which is still part of the cosmos and it did not pre-exist the universe. This point leads us nicely to the next possible explanation.

Self caused or self created

Philosophically, the universe couldn’t have created itself because that would imply a paradox. It would mean that something can exist and not exist at the same time. The logical ends of this explanation are tantamount to saying that your mother gave birth to herself!

To assert that the universe created itself would be absurd and self refuting, because in order for something to create itself it would need to exist before it existed!

Created or brought into being by something else that began to exist

This is not an adequate explanation for the origins of the universe. The universe could not have owed its existence to another state of temporal physical existence. To maintain such an explanation would be equivalent of expanding the boundaries of the universe, as all things which have a temporal beginning exist within the universe. Also, if temporal physical existence owes itself to another temporal physical existence ad infinitum, it doesn’t explain anything. Rather it highlights the absurdity of an infinite regress, and that there has to be a beginning to the temporal physical states, which logically must be a non-physical state.

Take the following example into consideration. If the universe, U1, followed another temporal cause U2, and U2 followed another temporal cause U3, and this went on ad infinitum we wouldn’t have the universe U1 in the first place. Think about it this way, when does U1 come into being? Only after U2 has come into being. When does U2 come into being? Only after U3 has come into being. This same problem will continue even if we go to infinity. If U1 depended on its coming into being on a chain of infinite temporal causes, U1 would never exist. As the Islamic Philosopher and Scholar Dr. Jaafar Idris writes,

“There would be no series of actual causes, but only a series of non-existents, as Ibn Taymiyyah explained. The fact, however, is that there are existents around us; therefore, their ultimate cause must be something other than temporal causes.”


So now we have eliminated 3 options,  we are left with one: Created or brought into being by a non-created or un-caused entity

Now this does not mean God,  we can now analyse this last option

Evidence to show that Allah is real and you are bringing some poorly worded arguments that are nothing but question begging?. . . . .I laugh in Arabic. . . .Can you perform a verifiable miracle in Allah's name like healing of an amputee and restoring his amputated limbs back or calling on Allah to destroy all his enemies the Jews living in Israel today so that we know that he is not imaginary?. . .The fact that you are here trying to sell Allah to us shows that he is just another human construct like all the other Gods, your religion is nothing other than following another man's tradition and culture, and your God remains imaginary as such he can not do anything by himself, he has to rely on men to do EVERYTHING for him, write down his words, build his temples, fight for him, propagate his message etc, because he is a man made entity. . . .There is NO more evidence to show that Allah God is better than Zeus God, or Sango God or any of the pantheon of Hindu Gods. . . . They are all imaginary and man made end of story. . . .If you can perform any miracle in Allah's name or make him manifest himself to show that he is not imaginary then do it, STOP using poorly worded arguments to further the mythology. . ,

You see the problem i have with religious people is false assumptions and pretending to know things that they don't. . .Right know with our present scientific knowledge we really do not know how the universe came about, but that does not mean that we should fill in the gaps with baseless assumptions of ancient men that have been shown to be FALSE over and over again. . . .

tbaba12345:

Don't you think it is a little arrogant to request a physical manifestation of the lord of all that exists to you, a lowly human,
40:57. Assuredly the creation of the heavens and the earth is a greater [matter] than the creation of men: Yet most men understand not.
78:4. Verily, they shall soon [come to] know!
78:5. Verily, verily they shall soon [come to] know!
Later,
Safe.

"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship".
Yoda

Martian:

"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship".
Yoda

. . . . .Martin you are the man!!!. . . . .I wonder why he keeps quoting from a book of mythology whose origin he has NO clue about as the word of the force responsible for the universe. . . .Pathetic. . . .