hercules07:

Seems I am in a minority here, can we have records of when the europeans came and when we had contact with the fulani and Arabs. Anyway that is my opinion sha, its been a nice and cultured debate.

I think you misunderstood my objection. The issue is not with when they came or who came first, It's about what you said they brought.

Neither of those two brought my people civilization. They brought hegemony and pure ideological marketing and it worked, but we were already civilized in our own way.

Yea good discussions really, I enjoyed your contributions.

Hercules, Id love to listen to your case. Share with us the reasons and the markers that put the Northern tribes ahead of Yoruba civilization and enlightenement.

@Kilode

Maybe civilization was a harsh word, more like they had access to things we were not privy to, the discussion has been nice. @Negro, you do know that the Arabs at that point in time were quite ahead of us, it follows that people who are exposed to the arabs early enough will be ahead of those who were still warring within themselves, I should say this relates to Oyo and the Ekiti people more, the Egbas, Ekos and Ijebus might have had early exposure to portuguese sha, I am not demeaning our tribe, we were organised, very organised, but, we learnt a lot from the fulanis, can not say its the same in reverse.

^did you check out the threads on yoruba art and architecture in culture section?

*slow clap for Kilode's earlier post*

Well, if they failed to learn from us that goes to show how close-minded and ignorant they were.

Ignorance and closemindedness is synonymous with backwardness.


I'm specifically referring to  Arabs and Europeans here because the argument about Fulanis, I will not even entertain at all. There's absolutely no reason to think of Fulanis as more "advanced"

I'm more concerned about the argument being made on behalf of their so-called teachers: Arabs and maybe Europeans.

@Negro, you do know that the Arabs at that point in time were quite ahead of us, it follows that people who are exposed to the arabs early enough will be ahead of those who were still warring within themselves, I should say this relates to Oyo and the Ekiti people more, the Egbas, Ekos and Ijebus might have had early exposure to portuguese sha, I am not demeaning our tribe, we were organised, very organised, but, we learnt a lot from the fulanis, can not say its the same in reverse.

No, I did not know that.   I want to make sure that we have the same understanding by your inferrence of 'civilized", "enlightened", 'exposed". . . .and so on.

By civilization, I am looking for a culture that evolved from within itself to compete at or above parity level with its contemporaries in shaping and modeling a new world order and thus becoming pioneers of ideas and knowledge which chained the thoughts and evolution of other less societies.

Oyo did that successfully.  Fulani did that successfully.    Fulani in fact followed in the footsteps of Oyo.  Hausa, at its polytheistic age was superior to Fulani at its monotheistic age.  So to say that the Arab philosophy of monotheism was a heirarchical influence is wrong.  By the way, which Arabs are you referencing. . . the ancient Black ones or the modern age white ones?    Hausa had state kingdoms. . . . Fulani never in its history in West Africa established state kingdoms of that scale.  They merely stepped in what was existing when they toppled Hausa.   The Hausa 7 state structure itself was modeled after the Ife 7 state Empire. . .  .which spun off Oyo and Bini and by the glory of which, thank God, today we have a Yoruba commonwealth extending into Ghana.

^did you check out the threads on yoruba art and architecture in culture section?

tpia, I am not sure he did. I think he should go familiarize with that first and then come back here and dobale and say Kabiyesi. . . . instead of Ran ka ya dade.

that statement by hercules can only mean one thing:

fulanis have invaded yorubaland.

i hope i'm wrong.

@tpia, Fulanis invaded Yorubaland a long time ago ( I know you are insinuating that I am a fulani), @Negro, I might have got the word civilization wrong, I am talking about learning from others, I am not aware our "technologies" were as advanced as those of the Arabs (17th to 19th century).

I don't know how a different country/tribe establishes an emirate and imposes a king on another country/tribe and yet people of the latter say those people weren't conquered. Ilorin is apart of the Sokoto Caliphate. It is conquered yorubaland. The yoruba were conquered by the fulani. And Ilorin was not the only yoruba territory conquered. Accept it.

We have always cohabitated with Fulani, but that does not mean they brought us any enlightenement that we did not already have.   In fact, at the height of scholarship in West Africa. . . .two cities were the seat of knowledge - Timbuktu in Mali and Ife in Nigeria, period!    

Timbuktu had Islamic scholarship and Ile-Ife had Ifa philosophical thought.  Ifa itself as a sacred manuscript of nature predated revelation of Holy Quran.

Negro_Ntns:


Timbuktu had Islamic scholarship[s] and Ile-Ife had Ifa philosophical thought[/s]. Ifa itself as a sacred manuscript of nature predated revelation of Holy Quran.

OMG!!!!! [size=30pt] ROTFLMAO!!!!![/size]

@Negro, I might have got the word civilization wrong, I am talking about learning from others, I am not aware our "technologies" were as advanced as those of the Arabs (17th to 19th century

I believe you did.  As far as learning from others. . . . thats is human nature!  Our existence is relative from one to the other. . . . there is continous interexchange of ideas and new awareness between the ruled and the ruler.  It is innate!  Civilization on the other hand has a political and dominion inference to it and it does not necessarily has to be technologically based. . . . you can create a new world order and become a super power via art.   Egypt was not as technologically advanced as Babylonia but yet the scholars of Babylon were trooping to Egypt to learn the secrets of nature and divinity.

I don't know how a different country/tribe establishes an emirate and imposes a king on another country/tribe and yet people of the latter say those people weren't conquered. Ilorin is apart of the Sokoto Caliphate. It is conquered yorubaland. The yoruba were conquered by the fulani. And Ilorin was not the only yoruba territory conquered. Accept it.

Historical list of wars fought by Ibo.

1. market women riot of Aba - 1929. Quelled by British.
2. Biafran cessesion - 1967 to 1970. Conquered by Nigeria.

Chyz, did I leave any out?

I defer to Negro-Ntns on this one. Smart brotha!

He made all the point's I wanted to make.


@Topic

If you are reading this thread and you are hiding a Kiriji war memorabilia in your grandmother's bedroom, please take a picture and share, don't be like my brother Ekt-bear, we want to see history.

Hercules

where in my post is giving you the impression i think you're fulani?

For Hercules to get a deeper understanding and appreciation for the Yoruba sacred manuscript. . . please read this book/journal.  I want to say I like your attitude and openess about the differences and Im glad you have opportunity to gain a new awareness and pride in the legacy of our fore fathers.  Yoruba is no joke. . . . look at how much is uncovered just discussing Kiriji alone.  There are plenty wars in our history and none is more fascinating than the internal ones because they reveal the galantry and fortitude and resolve of Yorubas to strategize and counter-strategize against their opponents in war.  One things is clear. . . .none of them ever underestimated the capabilities of the other side, not even the war hardened Ibadan and without doubt there is consistency in the way they responded and acted on the value of building coalition and alliances.

http://www.oyansoro.com/archives/Archives/Oyansoro/Marketkplace/OsogbeSoro/OsogbeSoro.PDF


Kilode, O se o jare.  

First Actions leading to war

Latosa sent Ilori (son of Ogunmola) and Iyapo (son of Ibikunle) on an expedition to retrieve gun powder bought by Allafin Adelu at Cotonou but left at Bokofi for fear of the shipment been seized by the Egba who, together with the Ijebus, had blocked the sale of gunpowder and guns to Ibadan and Oyo after the Ijaiye war. The expedition had to pass by Abeokuta and the Egbas (Balogun Ajagunjeun) retaliated by shutting the route to Lagos to Ibadan traders. Latosa had sent the two sons of Ibadan legends in the hope that they would encounter the Egbas and one or both of them could be eliminated.

Latosa was obsessed with eclipsing the name and legend of Ibikunle and Ogunmola. He realized that the only way to do this would be through war. So he declared war would start and sent a message to all other states (Ilorin, Ekiti, Ife, Ijesha, Ijebu) requesting their services. He didn’t realize that they would all seize the opportunity to engage Ibadan. All the Ibadan chiefs cautioned Latosa against war but replied " I am going to perform a task which God has allotted to me to do, and those who say they shall see that I do not accomplish it will not live to see it done, as done it shall be, and when I have finished there shall be no more wars for ever in the Yoruba country."

In August 1977, Latosa and his war chiefs, against their wishes, captured a few Egba towns - Atadi and Alagbara. The Ijebus recalled their Agurin at Ibadan to indicate they were going to fight beside the Egbas against Ibadan.

Source - History of The Yoruba

Negro_Ntns:

Where is DK. . .are you going to vie for Are Ona Kakanfo or not? Don't let Akintola down. . . . it will be nice to have in history that two Ares came from same bloodline.

[img]http://sirismm.si.edu/eepa/eep/eepa_01956.jpg[/img]

See how Ben Gurion dey look the Aare ona kakanfo in fear

S.L. had an air of courage and confidence in both of those pics. Nice!

the second picture is symbolic. . . . Nigerian Jews should fear you once you begin sitting on the leopard skin too.

@Negro_Ntns
@Katsumoto

I have learnt a lot about Yoruba history from you guys

I never knew we were this great - I always had the impression that the greatest civilizations in West Africa were Ghana, Mali and Songhay

Thanks guys

shymmex:

@Negro_Ntns
@Katsumoto

I have learnt a lot about Yoruba history from you guys

I never knew we were this great - I always had the impression that the greatest civilizations in West Africa were Ghana, Mali and Songhay

Thanks guys

You never knew what! You never heard; Ajisebi Oyo la ri, Oyo o se bi baba enikan kan? There is a reason behind those words. True, Katz and Negro_Ntns are great.

@Negro_Ntns
@Katsumoto

I have learnt a lot about Yoruba history from you guys

I never knew we were this great - I always had the impression that the greatest civilizations in West Africa were Ghana, Mali and Songhay

Thanks guys

ehnn, Negro ke . . . niwaju Katz!

With great pleasure Shymmex, whatever I can share. . . in fact, whatever we all can share and learn from one another. I have learnt a lot from the great Katz, and as well from many others here on NL. Katz is the database here and he will bring you facts with dates and reference and authors and the publisher and all that. No joke, he is that detailed, and very smart.

On many occassions he had set a trap and got me cornered for a horrifying beating online. . . . but I learnt long ago to write in aniticipation of an encounter with him. . .I know how to slip out of his chokehold. Most of what I write on Yoruba history come from direct contact with custodians who shared the narratives and wisdom in oral form. I am blessed to have come in contact with many, not just on Yoruba history but also Hausa and Fulani. Particularly, Im versed in Yoruba esotericism and alchemy of the elements.

Hey, if you have not already done so, I should recommend these topics for you to read in culture section -
1. Ife Bronze Heads and 2. Yoruba Architecture. I guarantee, you will love them.

[img]http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTmXaGYuMMp5nb1YbNkTShQCVSLCHrj-VKjAhqbSoV1JXZ-cQaABQ[/img]

This is a nice picture as well.  For the longest time, I think it was the only one (or one of two max!) of the late Akintola, that was available online.  The large one above that DK posted must be newly posted online, because I remember searching for some a couple of months ago and it was like pulling teeth!


Shymmex, In addition to the NL Culture section topics referred by Negro, you should also check out the thread I linked earlier re: Great Leaders Pre-Colonisation.  That one is in Politics section.  If I link it one more time, it will feel like self-promotion.

First, Aigbofa, thanks for your word. I wanted to include in last post and forgot.

Isale_Gan, I agree that pre-colonisation post is a very good read. A summary collection of heroes, very good and instructive. You know what, is it possible that we can have an index repository containing links to these highly valuable topics? So there is a single point for the record keeping, instead of scattered all over.

Personally, I think Akintola's error of political judgement ought to be forgiven by Yorubas in every camp. We must ask if his betrayal was out of character with what the Aare position has become notorious for doing - rebelion against the land? We have to go withe precedence. Has not Afonja been forgiven for his own betrayal in Ilorin? Has not Abiola been forgiven for his own dilly dallying with North? Maybe its time to bury the leopard skin and retool the Aare title and its meaning for our land in contemporary terms.

Isale I dont know if that coloured picture of that quality could have been taken in the 60's when Akintola lived.

Maybe it was retouched

Well done people. Nice

@katz
Ok.
I was just messing about seant,really.
Nothing against Lisabi exploits.

@topic Maybe the Ifa doctrines,its acceptance and practice unified our fathers more than wars and trade.
Though I don't do Ifa but the embrace of Ifa believe system/religion by our fore fathers may just be the source of what we know as Yoruba today.Yoruba language may just be the Ifa language originally and spread through acceptance and practice.
Just as christianity helped spread the English language and catholic-practice, the Spanish lang.

Just thinking.

With respect to the Kiriji wars, it is said that the war truce was observed at a site around Igbajo. It is said that two trees were planted in memory of the wars. This picture below is the site of the truce:

^

Tony Spike, are you fishing around for ideas? A park? Business venture or is it just curiosity?

It will be great it you can share. I read that the Ekiti State Govt is interested in Kiriji war re-enactments, documentaries or even tourism ideas. It will be great if you can share more about your interests. I'm interested too.

Chyz*:

Either this gets moved to the Culture section or[b] I put up thread on Igbo history[/b], preferebly Afikpo, or in fact, where ever in Igbo land.

Please do. I'd like to read. Politics or Culture - doesn't matter.