goshen360:

In red, the word of God is very clear, contributing to SUPPORT NOT TO PAY SALARY to JESUS and HIS DISCIPLES. This is where the bible. Am I reading another thing here.

What is the difference between support and salary?

This is all about the heart of the person involved - if I am seeking to be a Pastor simply to gain support/salary, then it is wrong regardless of what you call it.

If on the other hand, if the intent to preach the word is genuine, then the how exactly the support is provided is irrelevant.

If giving salary is prohibited, kindly share the scripture prohibiting it.

goshen360:

@ Joagbaje,

I cannot dig deep with you because you are holding on to a certain believe. There are things I cannot say here on this forum because it will mean a different topic altogether. The same Paul you quote simple said,

But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me. I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast. 1 cor 9:15 (NIV)

You see, we are not like the many hucksters who preach for personal profit. We preach the word of God with sincerity and with Christ's authority, knowing that God is watching us. 2 cor. 2:17 NLT

We can go on and on this topic but simply we rather divide the word of truth rather than sit on bible verse that suits us.

That Paul has chosen not to use the rights does not make using those rights a bad thing.

Clearly that passage condemns preaching simply for profit, which is what is wrong, not the receipt of support in itself.

@Goshen

goshen360:

@ Joagbaje,

I cannot dig deep with you because you are holding on to a certain believe. There are things I cannot say here on this forum because it will mean a different topic altogether.

The word of ahold is open before all of us dear. It's not personal. If I'm wrong I'll accept but if you're wrong can you accept?

]The same Paul you quote simple said,

But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me. I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast. 1 cor 9:15 (NIV)

Study. . . Study. . Study. . That was Paul personal choice and it only happened in Corinth.  He didn't do that in other churches. The reason he did that was because of carnal nairslanders who would call him thief . There are other things Paul did as personal sacrifice. HE WAS CELIBATE! He denied himself marriage. Are you married ? Why don't you pick on that to condemn marriages. . . See what I'm saying.

@ debosky and Joagbaje,

Read from my comments, you will see lots of scriptures quoted. To support using other references of bible verse means to share what God had blessed you with a man of God not salary my brother. People supported Jesus and the Apostles but didn't give them salaries. You are saying Paul chose not to use his right then where is 1 Cor. 11:1 (NIV)

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

Stop quoting Apostle Paul in words and not following same examples, OK

Paul didn't marry ,will you follow that example? Can you be humble enough to admit you're wrong?

^^^
Wrong as in, we both agree from the scriptures that support is valid, Right.

You believe pastors should get salary and I don't believe it. Am using same scriptures you guys quote to explain to you that support doesn't means same thing as paying salary to a preacher. Apostle Paul also told you to follow his example, do you see that? Where am i wrong?

stepo707:

I do hear this phrase everywhere "my ministry". who the hell authorised you to open a ministry?God is not an author of confusion.The church belongs to Christ as he is the head(Eph 5:23-25) and no one to any individual.Infact when you here any pastor saying that phrase,that man/woman must be a false prophet/pastor.
Its because everyone sees church as an avenue to quick money that's why there is so many conflicting doctrines.
Back to the topic, A pastor/preacher is no supposed to get any monthly salary.No where in the scripture where the apostles or disciples that went about preaching received a dime for preaching the gospel.When the Lord calls you,he will definitely provide for your needs but dont expect compensation in form of monthly salary for doing God's work.

[/quote

One definition of Ministry - the service, functions, or profession of a minister of religion. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ministry
Anymore misunderstanding regarding why the phrase 'my ministry' is often used?

goshen360:

^^^
. Apostle Paul also told you to follow his example, do you see that? Where am i wrong?

What paul did in Corinth ,labouring with his hand instead of collecting money and support. Did he do it in other churches? Have you realised he only did it under a specific circumstance.? Did he make his actiona law for the body?
So why do you now criticise other ministers on that account?

The problem of indoctrination in the church today to justify all the bible verses of Apostle Paul to mean salary is that, the Apostles of early church had their vocation and still preached the gospel rigorously. Apostle Paul combined his tent making trade with Apostolic assignment. Peter and others didn't return to their fishing business as main source of their income, however there is not record that they received regular salaries from the church. Today, we have lazy men that don't want to work rather than depend on church salary, hence they carve out baseless teachings to support their salary earnings.

Every Pastor should get a job or run a business. Yes, the church can rise up to support them in times of need but we do not have a foundation from early Apostles for preachers to receive salary. Pastors have created a salary system simply because they made clergy a job and professionalize it giving it terms such as "full time". Jesus preached full time but never received salary but support. Every child of God of God is a full time minster, God didn't call us into part time service or fellowship.

Again, we have a foundation by the early apostles and we cannot build something else on such foundation. Support preachers and pastors? scripturally YES. Pay preachers and pastors salary? Biblically, NO. We do not have such example from Christ or from the Apostles.

@op Seeing you cannot deny the fact that support may be in the form of salary, I think I should tell you that good and bad in Christianity is not always a direct opposite or white and black. There are alot of things that are neither wrong nor bad.
Also you should endeavour to read bible passages in appreciation of the context in which it was written.
Just like when Jesus told his disciples to give freely. He was simply referring to acts like demanding a reward from people before or after preaching or praying for them. This has nothing with churches supporting their ministers

Lastly, I would prefer if you refer to it as stipend and not salary. Because if you know how much many priests are said especially those in orthodox churches you would understand that it in no way equates to their effort and is rather just to meet basic needs

2 Corinthians 11:7-8

7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel freely?

8 I robbed other churches, taking WAGES of them, to do you service.


I am sorry goshen, like I said your initial scripture bore you witness. Pls stop trying to ' muzzle the ox that threadeth the corn.'

jedisco:

@op [b]Seeing you cannot deny the fact that support may be in the form of salary,[/b] I think I should tell you that good and bad in Christianity is not always a direct opposite or white and black. There are alot of things that are neither wrong nor bad.

Also you should endeavour to read bible passages in appreciation of the context in which it was written.
Just like when Jesus told his disciples to give freely. He was simply referring to acts like demanding a reward from people before or after preaching or praying for them. This has nothing with churches supporting their ministers

Lastly, I would prefer if you refer to it as stipend and not salary. Because if you know how much many priests are said especially those in orthodox churches you would understand that it in no way equates to their effort and is rather just to meet basic needs

Bolded in black. I do not say support and salary mean the same thing. What really is support? When you support someone, it means such person also have little means of livelihood right? Many preachers get gifts when invited to preach, they write books, they have businesses etc and in this case, they are supported should in case their income is not enough from the above mention source. Support is not same as giving salary.

Bolded in Red. How do you know what Jesus was referring to? Jesus simply said, Freely you have received, freely give. The same Jesus you quoted also received support in his ministry and yet did God's work full time more than these lazy pastors of today.

Bolded in green. Exactly what am saying. Because they have created a structure out of them church and such structure will allow them to collect salary. This is a wrong structure. Let them go get a job, or do business with support from the church if need be. The bible is clear on this subject sir.

goshen360:

The problem of indoctrination in the church today to justify all the bible verses of Apostle Paul to mean salary is that, the Apostles of early church had their vocation and still preached the gospel rigorously. Apostle Paul combined his tent making trade with Apostolic assignment. Peter and others didn't return to their fishing business as main source of their income, however there is not record that they received regular salaries from the church. Today, we have lazy men that don't want to work rather than depend on church salary, hence they carve out baseless teachings to support their salary earnings.

Every Pastor should get a job or run a business. Yes, the church can rise up to support them in times of need but we do not have a foundation from early Apostles for preachers to receive salary. Pastors have created a salary system simply because they made clergy a job and professionalize it giving it terms such as "full time". Jesus preached full time but never received salary but support. Every child of God of God is a full time minster, God didn't call us into part time service or fellowship.

Again, we have a foundation by the early apostles and we cannot build something else on such foundation. Support preachers and pastors? scripturally YES. Pay preachers and pastors salary? Biblically, NO. We do not have such example from Christ or from the Apostles.

@ Mr Goshen please try hard to read your comments, you are as guilty of the charge you accuse others.

You have tried real hard to convey your position, but as debosky has tried to point out, its the heart/intent that matters and is more important than all the semantics/word play you are concerned about.

Please tell what is regular support, what is salary are both not just a means of blessing from that which God has given you. Some people receive salary daily, weekly , monthly or even yearly so how does that differ from daily, wekly , monthly or yearly support.

If you do not come out and state categorically that all should be CELIBATE then please drop this. Souls are perishing.

@Goshen

goshen360:

The problem of indoctrination in the church today to justify all the bible verses of Apostle Paul to mean salary is that, the Apostles of early church had their vocation and still preached the gospel rigorously.

Every Jewish boy learns a skill.Paul learned tent making  Jesus trained as carpenter. Peter was gusher man. did Peter go back to fishing? Did Jesus go back to carpentry?

Apostle Paul combined his tent making trade with Apostolic assignment. Peter and others didn't return to their fishing business as main source of their income, however there is not record that they received regular salaries from the church. Today, we have lazy men that don't want to work rather than depend on church salary, hence they carve out baseless teachings to support their salary earnings.

Why do you make your own law and insult Gods servants? Ministry is of the holyghost . Every minister follow Gods direction for their ministry . Why will you judge others for what you know little of ?

Every Pastor should get a job or run a business.

Which job was Jesus doing ? Which job was Peter doing? Even Jesus had to rebuke him when he tried to go fishing .

The point is this, those who have been called into lay ministry should focus on laity , those who have been called into full time shoukd devote their attention full time.

Pastors have created a salary system simply because they made clergy a job and professionalize it giving it terms such as "full time". Jesus preached full time but never received salary but support. Every child of God of God is a full time minster, God didn't call us into part time service or fellowship.

Luke was a lay minister ,a practicing doctor . Priscilla and Aquila were pastors and tent makers . They were lay ministers.

Support preachers and pastors? scripturally YES. Pay preachers and pastors salary? Biblically, NO. We do not have such example from Christ or from the Apostles.

It's just semantics , the principle is thesame. You're saying two things . "They  must work in the labour market" "it's wrong to be paid" who made that law ?

What do you say of these?

1 Timothy 5:17-21
7 Elders with a gift of leadership should be considered worthy of respect, and of adequate [size=15pt]salary[/size], particularly if they work hard at their preaching and teaching. Remember the scriptural principle: 'You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads the grain', and 'The labourer is worthy of his wages'.

A man in full time ministry is called into it. Just like the apostles. The Orkney requires a devotion that labour market will be a distraction.  Such has to study , intercede, fasting, just to mention few. . 24hr of the day seem too short for such people because of the load of work.

The apostles needed so much focus that they could not even attend to some matters they had to get deacons .why? For one reason.

Acts 6:4
4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.


According to you a full time minister is a lazy man, why do you judge what you know little about?

Romans 14:10
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Snowwy:

2 Corinthians 11:7-8

7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel freely?

8 I robbed other churches, taking WAGES of them, to do you service.


I am sorry goshen, like I said your initial scripture bore you witness. Pls stop trying to ' muzzle the ox that threadeth the corn.'

Why do you try to interpret scripture like you chose to? So you mean Paul "robbed" Peter to Pay Paul? Did he owe the Corinthians anything? You can't seems to understand the context. Paul simply humbled himself and made sacrifice for the corinthian church. How many men of God today will do that? Am not surprised at you, since you justify tithe, why wont you justify pastor receiving salary.

Again, read english very well. In the verse you quoted, "taking WAGES of them" simply means support. Do you take wages of someone or FROM someone? I leave you to answer that question.

^^
The thing being pointed to you is that Pail didn't make a law out of what he did , you are the one making a law out of what paul did, his sacrifice was based on his faith . That doesn't mean it was the best descision he himself. Acknowledged that he had right like other apostles like Peter but he just chose to labour for a specific reason.

@ Joagbaje,

I will not attempt to answer your stuffs. You are always found of hiding under the verse of judge not when the truth reveals your intentions. Jesus and the Apostles you talked about that didn't go back to their vocation, did they receive salary? It is very clear from scriptures that even with them doing only the gospel, they didn't get salary from people. Please stop hiding under some set of scriptures that suits you to justify your love for money. Godliness with contentment is a great gain.

@Goshen

goshen360:

@ Joagbaje,

I will not attempt to answer your stuffs. You are always found of hiding under the verse of judge not when the truth reveals your intentions. Jesus and the Apostles you talked about that didn't go back to their vocation, did they receive salary? It is very clear from scriptures that even with them doing only the gospel, they didn't get salary from people. Please stop hiding under some set of scriptures that suits you to justify your love for money. Godliness with contentment is a great gain.

You're the one hiding here. You said every minister must work . And a minister who has no outside job is lazy. Youdaid there is nothing like full time minister. Isn't it so?

Ehem,
He's got a wife, kids, needs & all. Do u want to really encourage a full time Pastor not being paid? Common!!!

@ goshen you have a doctrine you believe and i wont say you are wrong but I disagree with you. You are as much indoctrinated like any other christain.

The issue I take is your attempt to call any minister been paid by ministries lazy, that is way out of line.

We can judge righteously and am not against speaking against some of the excesses we see in some of our ministries, but calling people you dont know lazy is not judging righteously and really plainly wrong.

Believe what you choose to, but there is a sound scriptural basis to financial support of ministers. No matter how hard you try its in the bible.

Again, if you cant state categorically that all should be CELIBATE, stop this pick and choose example.

@goshen,
You have previous unanswered questions before my last post.

If you were not so worked up, you will have seen that I had no interpretation. I simply posted the scripture there.
Plainly, you just showed that you were fighting the word of God since I made no comment on that.

You initially came up with 'sitting on one scripture' to justify your trying to do away with I Cor 9, despite the fact that the scripture speaks for itself and other scriptures were being quoted.
Now you say 'taking wages of them' simply means support. The very thing you were fighting.

I will advise you step back and take a look at your posts and see how they look even to you.
I respect you want to leave me to my answer as I can see you have nothing more to add.

the problem is simple - in nigeria the idea of having a "ministry" is no longer about selfless sharing of the gospel as led by the Holy Ghost but another form of regular avenue for paid employment.

@ poster

away4real:

@ Mr Goshen please try hard to read your comments, you are as guilty of the charge you accuse others.
You have tried real hard to convey your position, but as debosky has tried to point out, its the heart/intent that matters and is more important than all the semantics/word play you are concerned about.
Please tell what is regular support, what is salary are both not just a means of blessing from that which God has given you. Some people receive salary daily, weekly , monthly or even yearly so how does that differ from daily, wekly , monthly or yearly support.
If you do not come out and state categorically that all should be CELIBATE then please drop this. Souls are perishing.

Someone needs to tell him

What is the difference between wages and support?  Is it that one is fixed and regular while the other is subject to the whims of the supporter?  Or is not wages in and of itself not a form of support?  if wages were bad they would say, 'support preachers, but not in the form of fixed wages'.

davidylan:

the problem is simple - in nigeria the idea of having a "ministry" is no longer about selfless sharing of the gospel as led by the Holy Ghost but another form of regular avenue for paid employment.

Are you talking from experience?
Even if you feel this way it does not mean it's true,
If you have a pastor over you am sure he'll be able to explain some things better to you, but this statement you just made clearly shows you are not under a pastor

Snowwy:

@goshen,
You have previous unanswered questions before my last post.

If you were not so worked up, you will have seen that I had no interpretation. I simply posted the scripture there.
Plainly, you just showed that you were fighting the word of God since I made no comment on that.

You initially came up with 'sitting on one scripture' to justify your trying to do away with I Cor 9, despite the fact that the scripture speaks for itself and other scriptures were being quoted.
Now you say 'taking wages of them' simply means support. The very thing you were fighting.

I will advise you step back and take a look at your posts and see how they look even to you.
I respect you want to leave me to my answer as I can see you have nothing more to add.

Shows you are not in line. Taking wages of them and taking wages from them? Can you explain this? I am not fighting the word of God and i am not fighting support for pastors and preachers.

away4real:

@ goshen you have a doctrine you believe and i wont say you are wrong but I disagree with you. You are as much indoctrinated like any other christain.

The issue I take is your attempt to call any minister been paid by ministries lazy, that is way out of line.

We can judge righteously and am not against speaking against some of the excesses we see in some of our ministries, but calling people you dont know lazy is not judging righteously and really plainly wrong.

Believe what you choose to, but there is a sound scriptural basis to financial support of ministers. No matter how hard you try its in the bible.

Again, if you cant state categorically that all should be CELIBATE, stop this pick and choose example.

I am subject to correction on the use of words. Thank you.

'of' and 'from' really mean the same thing in english language.  It's just that in some contexts one term is more used than the other.  but in other context it doesn't matter which one is used.

Paul of Tarsus.  Means Paul from Tarsus.

Azibalua:

Are you talking from experience?
Even if you feel this way it does not mean it's true,
If you have a pastor over you am sure he'll be able to explain some things better to you, but[b] this statement you just made clearly shows you are not under a pastor[/b]

huh? What does it mean to "have a pastor under you"? You mean shirking your own spiritual responsibility and expecting to be spoonfed by another? What of the Berean christians? Werent they under the pastorship of Paul? why did the bible record that they were more blessed because they went home critically reading to be sure they were being taught the truth by Paul?
Quite sad . . . this age has spawned a bunch of christians who are spiritually lazy, heavy on man's doctrine and light on the truth of the gospel.

@goshen,
It is obvious to everyone what that scripture means.

', taking wages of them, to do you service'

You are the one that has the issue, trying to define 'taking wages of them' and 'taking wages from them'. I do not know why you want me to explain it.
I would rather you tell me how both differ since you claim to know better.

You can read the scripture in context as well to aid your definition.