IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?

By Dr. Rafat Amari

Muslims believe that Mohammed is a descendant of Ishmael. As proof of their position, Muslims refer to genealogies written around 770-775 A.D. by Ibn Ishak.

What he has written is simply not true. Ishmaelite tribes, especially the tribe of Nebaioth from which, according to Ibn Ishak, Mohammed is said to have come, were nomadic tribes who lived in the Sinai and Fertile Crescent deserts. These tribes disappeared after the 7th century B.C.

Mohammed's family was a Sabaean Yemeni family, while the Ishmaelites, who lived in the deserts of the Fertile Crescent, became extinct many centuries before Mohammed's family left Yemen.

Historians say that the family of Mohammed was a family which lived in Saba-Yemen. In the 5th century A.D., Qusayy Bin Kilab, the 8th ancestor of Mohammed, gathered an alliance of many Yemeni families forming Quraish, the tribe from which Mohammed later came. These families only came to occupy Mecca in the 5th century A.D. The city of Mecca was built by the tribe of Khuzaa'h in the 4th century A.D.

Mohammed’s family is not connected to any Ishmaelite tribe because Mohammed’s family didn’t leave Yemen until the 5th century A.D., and that’s about 1,100 years after the Ishmaelites disappeared. Mohammed’s tribe could not have lived in the same locations as the Ishmaelite tribes at any time throughout history. . .



http://www.google.com/search?q=Judah+was+a+father+and+grandfather+in+a+short+time&hl=en&gbv=2&gs_l=serp.3...13153.20792.0.21058.51.15.0.36.0.0.203.1359.8j2j2.12.0...0.0.5kYidoK6S_s&oq=Judah+was+a+father+and+grandfather+in+a+short+time&aq=f&aqi=&aql=

This is the silliest thing, i have seen in a while...

Why?

the tribe of Nebaioth .... According to your bible, nebaioth is the first son of Ishmael, Kedar is the second son... Muslims believe that the prophet descended from Kedar not nebaioth.... so first of all, your information is wrong


...Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bore unto Abraham. And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the first-born of Ishmael, Nebaioth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa; 15 Hadad, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedem; these are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their villages, and by their encampments; twelve princes according to their nations... (Book of Genesis 25:12-16)

Muslim sources trace the geneaology to kedar not nebaioth, There is more evidence to believe the prophet descended from kedar. (Hughes, Thomas Patrick (1995) [First published 1885]. A Dictionary of Islam: Being a Cyclopaedia of the Doctrines, Rites, Ceremonies, and Customs, Together With the Technical and Theological Terms, of the Muhammadan Religion. New Delhi: Asian Educational Services. p. 19. ISBN 978-81-206-0672-2. Retrieved 2010-07-24.)

The genealogy from kedar is as follows

Abraham (AS) (Ibrahim)--- was father of
Ishmael(AS) (Ismail) --- was father of
Kedar (Qaydar) --- was father of
'Adnan --- was father of
Ma'ad --- was father of
Nizar --- was father of
Mudar --- was father of
Ilyas --- was father of
Mudrikah --- was father of
Khuzaimah --- was father of
Kinanah --- was father of
Al-Nadr --- was father of
Malik --- was father of
Quraysh (Fihr) --- was father of
Ghalib --- was father of
Lu'ayy --- was father of
Ka'ab --- was father of
Murrah --- was father of
Kilab --- was father of
Qusay --- was father of
'Abd Manaf --- was father of
Hashim --- was father of
'Abdul Muttalib --- was father of
'Abdullah --- was father of
MUHAMMAD (SAW)

http://books.google.com/books?id=JherW50tVyAC&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=false

Your conclusion is based on a wrong premise in the first place. so this whole exercise of yours was a waste of time. you say historians and give no references... [size=14pt]which historians? [/size]you started by saying the tribe of nebioath disappeared and ended with the ishmaelites disappearing Ishmael had 12 sons from your bible.... That means there were 12 tribes at least from him.... Did they all die off??

The pagan arabs in mecca even before islam identified themselves as sons of abraham/Ismail. So they were familiar with Ismail. There is DNA eveidence to show the common ancestry of the Jews and arabs. http://www.dangoor.com/73page25.html

^May Allah bless you with additional knowledge and wisdom.

tbaba1234: This is the silliest thing, i have seen in a while...

The pagan arabs in mecca even before islam identified themselves as sons of abraham/Ismail. So they were familiar with Ismail. There is DNA eveidence to show the common ancestry of the Jews and arabs. http://www.dangoor.com/73page25.html

I wonder why you keep insisting that the people living during the time of Mohammed were not exposed to the stories of the bible. . .Funny. . .

mazaje:
I wonder why you keep insisting that the people living during the time of Mohammed were not exposed to the stories of the bible. . .Funny. . .

The pagan arabs knew their ancestors, how does that relate to the bible? They knew that the Kaaba was built by their father Ismail... the bible does not say that or acknowledge that... Ismail/abraham were renowned for building the kaaba which was a central place for worship at the time... The story of Ismail to the arabs is independent of the bible or any other book.

tbaba1234:

The pagan arabs knew their ancestors, how does that relate to the bible? They knew that the Kaaba was built by their father Ismail... the bible does not say that or acknowledge that... Ismail/abraham were renowned for building the kaaba which was a central place for worship at the time... The story of Ismail to the arabs is independent of the bible or any other book.

Pls which pre-islamic text from the pagan arabs says this? pls provide it let me see. . .

mazaje:

Pls which pre-islamic text from the pagan arabs says this? pls provide it let me see. . .

Oral tradition. How did Alex Haley confirm that Kunta Kinte was originally from the Gambia?

maclatunji:

Oral tradition. How did Alex Haley confirm that Kunta Kinte was originally from the Gambia.

Tbaba123 stated something is is very false, so I wanted him to back it up. . . .

maclatunji:

Oral tradition. How did Alex Haley confirm that Kunta Kinte was originally from the Gambia?

It's a lie, that book by Alex Haley was fabricated and plagiarised. Check it out on wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots:_The_Saga_of_an_American_Family#Plagiarism

mazaje:
Tbaba123 stated something is is very false, so I wanted him to back it up. . . .

Before the prophet, there were individuals who called themselves hanifs... They were not pagans.. they claimed to follow the religion of abraham/ismail. This were people who retained what they considered the true faith of abraham. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif

Ibn ishaq records the stories of some of the hanifs in pre islamic arabia (Ibn Hisham, 1, 77) and how the religion degenerated to idol worship.... ibn abbas also has similar narrations in bukari. there are a few other historical records of these kinds of references to abraham in pre-islamic Arabia. The Quran also records the hanifs in some verses

“So set your countenance for the deen (faith) as a hanif ? the original nature on which Allah created man.” (30:30)

“Say: As for me, my Lord has guided me to a straight path , a correct deen, the way of Ibrahim as a hanif and he was not a polytheist.” (6:161)

As regards finding pre Islamic literature, most of what is preserved of pre islamic literature are in arabic books in libraries somewhere. And many of the topics spoken about are not necessarily relevant to the discussion. It was a largely oral tradition that the arabs believed in.

Ndipe:

It's a lie, that book by Alex Haley was fabricated and plagiarised. Check it out on wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots:_The_Saga_of_an_American_Family#Plagiarism

And your point being? . . . Coz the bulk of African history was transmitted orally, in essence would u then say the Yorubas for instance whose history was transmitted orally are lies concocted?

tbaba1234:

Before the prophet, there were individuals who called themselves hanifs... They were not pagans.. they claimed to follow the religion of abraham/ismail. This were people who retained what they considered the true faith of abraham. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif

Did you bother to read the link you posted?. . .The link you posted has nothing to to with a group of people that called themselves the Hanif before the advent of islam rather it is the muslim claim that there were a group of people that claimed to call themselves the hanif. . .

[quote]Ibn ishaq records the stories of some of the hanifs in pre islamic arabia (Ibn Hisham, 1, 77) and how the religion degenerated to idol worship.... ibn abbas also has similar narrations in bukari. there are a few other historical records of these kinds of references to abraham in pre-islamic Arabia. The Quran also records the hanifs in some verses

“So set your countenance for the deen (faith) as a hanif ? the original nature on which Allah created man.” (30:30)

“Say: As for me, my Lord has guided me to a straight path , a correct deen, the way of Ibrahim as a hanif and he was not a polytheist.” (6:161)

As regards finding pre Islamic literature, most of what is preserved of pre islamic literature are in arabic books in libraries somewhere. And many of the topics spoken about are not necessarily relevant to the discussion. It was a largely oral tradition that the arabs believed in.

I have told you that Islamic commentators and their commentaries are doubted by academics in part or in whole. . . . You made a very False claim that according the pagan arabs Abraham built the kaaba. . .Where is that recorded?. . .The Kaaba was not built by Abraham, it was were the arabs at that time used to house their gods before Mohamed came changed it, and brought the Abraham built the kaaba meme. . .

double post

^^
and do u have evidence(not missionary sources) to back up ur incredulous wild guess?

Abraham,Ishmael (as) and Their Relationship to Makkah As Testified In The Bible.


Hajj-Pilgrimage To Makkah (aka Bacca in the Quran) Psalm 84:4-7
"Blessed are those who dwell in your house;they are ever praising you.Selah Blessed are those whose strength is in you,who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.As they pass through the Valley of Baca,they make it a place of springs;the autumn rains also cover it with pools.They go from strength to strength,till each appears before God in Zion.Hear my prayer, O Lord God Almighty;listen to me, O God of Jacob.Selah Look upon our shield,c O God;look with favor on your anointed one.Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere;I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. For the Lord God is a sun and shield;the Lord bestows favor and honor;no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless. Lord Almighty,blessed is the man who trusts in you.

Pilgrimage of Ezekiel to Mecca:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ezekiel_pilgrimage.htm


Makkah in the Bible (below in quotes from the thread whose link appear right under here):
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-804239.64.html#msg9633958

@ those talking what the Quran/Islam mentions specifically about Abraham and the Ka'bah in particular,let me first bring to your notice that in your very own bible Hagar,the mother of Ishamel,who we believe along with his father Abraham rebuilt the ka'ba and placed the black stone is mentioned to have being in arabia.

Galatians 4:25
Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
(note that the above verse cannot be taken figuratively as the christian would speculate because Hagar is not from arabia but from egypt).so if really Hagar (as) was in arabia,why do you find it hard to believe Abraham stepped foot in Makkah?

here is even more explicit verse regarding the "wilderness of Paran" which is Arabia:

Genesis 21:20-21 (KJV) “And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.”

and you can read here for archaelogical finding that mount sinai is actually in saudi arabia (note that the israelites according to the bible are said to have roamed the desert for years.that could only be in arabia):

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/mt__sinai_found.htm
http://antipas.net/15faq.htm


read about Paran (Faran in arabic):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_of_Paran

Numbers 10:12
Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran.


In Surah 3:96, Makkah (refered to as Mecca) is given the name Bakkah:
Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-`Alamin (the mankind and jinns).

The Bible, in Psalm 84:5,6, mentions the valley of Baca:
Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage. As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs: the autumn rains also cover it with pools. (NIV)

furthermore we read about Paran (arabia) in the bible:

Numbers 10:12 (KJV) “And the children of Israel took their journeys out of the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud rested in the wilderness of Paran.”

Numbers 13:1-3 (KJV)
“And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Send thou men, that they may search the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel: of every tribe of their fathers shall ye send a man, every one a ruler among them. And Moses by the commandment of the LORD sent them from the wilderness of Paran: all those men were heads of the children of Israel.”


Habakkuk 3:3
God came from Teman, the Holy One from [b]Mount Paran. Selah His glory covered the heavens and his praise filled the earth.
(we know that the first revelation that descended upon Muhammad (sa) was in a cave called hira in a mountain known as Jabal an-Nur in Makkah).

Pilgrimage of Prophet Ezekiel (mentioned in the bible) to Makkah:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ezekiel_pilgrimage.htm

Mai-suya:
^^
and do u have evidence(not missionary sources) to back up ur incredulous wild guess?

The claim that the Kaa'ba came ONLY from the muslims. . .I don't want to provide any source because you will claim that it is from the missionaries. . .You claimed it was built by Abraham, pls can you provide any source outside the islamic stories that state that the Kaaba was built by Abraham?. . .The history of the Kaaba before is islam came around is known a little, they people used to house their gods inside it. . .But lets drop that, provide any source outside the muslim propaganda that states that kaaba was built by Abraham or Ishameal. . .

mazaje: I have told you that Islamic commentators and their commentaries are doubted by academics in part or in whole. . . . You made a very False claim that according the pagan arabs Abraham built the kaaba. . .Where is that recorded?. . .The Kaaba was not built by Abraham, it was were the arabs at that time used to house their gods before Mohamed came changed it, and brought the Abraham built the kaaba meme. . .

the earliest evidence recorded points to the fact that the Ka'bah was built by Abraham and Ismael (as) and the Quran too confirms that without any contention from the pagans.

now if you want to doubt the beliefs of the pagans because (i and apparently others here have not heard of records by pagans confirming the Ka'aba was built by Abraham) Islamic sources wrote these down,then DO YOU YOURSELF HAVE ANY RECORD DISPUTING THE FACT THAT ABRAHAM BUILT THE KA'BA? so now we have records centuries old witnessed,recorded and preserved by arabians who were pagan accepting and confirming the Ka'bah was built by Abraham.now even if any record is found written by the pagans,that record must have to be preserved by muslims because the arabians turned to Islam and abandoned idolatry.in Islamic sources,we do read the confirmation that those arabians who saw themselves as descendants of Abraham do accept the Ka'bah was built by Abraham.

for you to doubt something simply because they are recorded in this or that source shows bias.nontheless,if we are to move any further in this discussion,i want to stop at this point by asking you for this:

DO YOU HAVE ANY ANCIENT RECORD THAT INFORM YOU WHO BUILT THE KA'ABA? WHAT DOES YOUR RECORD SAY? DO YOU HAVE ANY RECORD THE PAGAN ARABIANS DISPUTING THAT THEIR ANCESTOR ABRAHAM BUILT THE KA'ABA?

if you do,then please bring your evidence forth.you do not have the privilege to cast doubts and build beliefs based on no evidence but what you feel like saying.present your own evidence and let us examine it if you are truthful.

mazaje:

The claim that the Kaa'ba came ONLY from the muslims. . .I don't want to provide any source because you will claim that it is from the missionaries. . .You claimed it was built by Abraham, pls can you provide any source outside the islamic stories that state that the Kaaba was built by Abraham?. . .The history of the Kaaba before is islam came around is known a little, they people used to house their gods inside it. . .But lets drop that, provide any source outside the muslim propaganda that states that kaaba was built by Abraham or Ishameal. . .

You made a claim, and I asked u for evidence, you can't now turn the table around and ask me to provide evidence? For what? I made no claim. I am just a silent observer, and even as a Muslim tbaba' evidence fortified argument and your wild guess assertion only tells me you are not a serious debater. By the way if you provide evidence and it is not bias it will be glaring and Muslims will have to prove otherwise, but if indeed it is from the bible thumpers, then we will have no option than reject it. It's simply logic.

Ndipe:

It's a lie, that book by Alex Haley was fabricated and plagiarised. Check it out on wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots:_The_Saga_of_an_American_Family#Plagiarism

The claims of plagiarism do not affect the fact that Alex Haley visited the Gambia and traced the family tree down to Kunta Kinte based on Oral tradition. Missing the point you are. Oral traditions are an important part of West African culture, read the story of Mansa Musa as well. Sebi you like to do research, I go give you assignment tire. The same thing applies to Arabs in terms of tracing their ancestry.

Of course you are free to dispute all-you-want.

Mai-suya:

You made a claim, and I asked u for evidence, you can't now turn the table around and ask me to provide evidence? For what? I made no claim. I am just a silent observer, and even as a Muslim tbaba' evidence fortified argument and your wild guess assertion only tells me you are not a serious debater. By the way if you provide evidence and it is not bias it will be glaring and Muslims will have to prove otherwise, but if indeed it is from the bible thumpers, then we will have no option than reject it. It's simply logic.

Read about the deity called Hubal. . .From wikipedia. . .

Hubal (Arabic: هبل‎) was a god worshipped in pre-Islamic Arabia, notably at the Kaaba in Mecca. His idol was a human figure, believed to control acts of divination, which were made by tossing arrows in front of the statue. The direction in which the arrows pointed answered questions asked of the idol. Access to the idol was controlled by the Quraysh. Devotees of Hubal fought against Muhammad's followers at the Battle of Badr. After Muhammad entered Mecca in 630, the image of Hubal was removed from the Kaaba.

Even the hadith records that pagans controlled the Kaaba before Mohammed started his religion, and that the Kaaba contained 360 idols. After Mohammed returned to Mecca from Medina and broke the "Truce of Hudaybiyyah" he had made with his own tribe the quraish, he then removed all the idols ..... except one. The black stone that remains to this day is the same that pre-Islamic pagans went on pilgrimage to and circumambulated, in arabian moon god and Star Family worship. . . .

Bukhari V2, B26, #689 (V1, B8, No 365): Narrated Abu Huraira:
“In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'”

“Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed, “You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa.” He answered, “Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them.”

mazaje:

Read about the deity called Hubal. . .From wikipedia. . .

Hubal (Arabic: هبل‎) was a god worshipped in pre-Islamic Arabia, notably at the Kaaba in Mecca. His idol was a human figure, believed to control acts of divination, which were made by tossing arrows in front of the statue. The direction in which the arrows pointed answered questions asked of the idol. Access to the idol was controlled by the Quraysh. Devotees of Hubal fought against Muhammad's followers at the Battle of Badr. After Muhammad entered Mecca in 630, the image of Hubal was removed from the Kaaba.

Even the hadith records that pagans controlled the Kaaba before Mohammed started his religion, and that the Kaaba contained 360 idols. After Mohammed returned to Mecca from Medina and broke the "Truce of Hudaybiyyah" he had made with his own tribe the quraish, he then removed all the idols ..... except one. The black stone that remains to this day is the same that pre-Islamic pagans went on pilgrimage to and circumambulated, in arabian moon god and Star Family worship. . . .

Bukhari V2, B26, #689 (V1, B8, No 365): Narrated Abu Huraira:
“In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'”

“Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed, “You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa.” He answered, “Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them.”

Recycled, regurgitated thrash from a confused mind. How slow can anyone be? Islam and idols are not compatible Mr. The rites of Hajj go back to as far back as the time of Abraham (the site of the Ka'aba has always been an holy site even before then). Are you saying Abraham (AS) was a pagan?

Your insecurity of heart will never give you peace.

@Mazaje, if your great grandfather built a house and for some reason, enemies overpowered you his descendants up to the point that they took control of his house, would you throwaway the antique furnishings that your great grandfather owned after you regained possession of the house because your enemies made use of them? I know you wouldn't. However, you would be all-too-quick to throwaway the memorabilia of your enemies because they are of no value to you.

Of course, you will just go ahead and dig deeper until you get consumed in your own hole.

mazaje:

Read about the deity called Hubal. . .From wikipedia. . .

Hubal (Arabic: هبل‎) was a god worshipped in pre-Islamic Arabia, notably at the Kaaba in Mecca. His idol was a human figure, believed to control acts of divination, which were made by tossing arrows in front of the statue. The direction in which the arrows pointed answered questions asked of the idol. Access to the idol was controlled by the Quraysh. Devotees of Hubal fought against Muhammad's followers at the Battle of Badr. After Muhammad entered Mecca in 630, the image of Hubal was removed from the Kaaba.

Even the hadith records that pagans controlled the Kaaba before Mohammed started his religion, and that the Kaaba contained 360 idols. After Mohammed returned to Mecca from Medina and broke the "Truce of Hudaybiyyah" he had made with his own tribe the quraish, he then removed all the idols ..... except one. The black stone that remains to this day is the same that pre-Islamic pagans went on pilgrimage to and circumambulated, in arabian moon god and Star Family worship. . . .

Bukhari V2, B26, #689 (V1, B8, No 365): Narrated Abu Huraira:
“In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'”

“Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed, “You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa.” He answered, “Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them.”

All what you just said doesn't affirm your claim that the Kaaba was not built by Abraham... If any thing, you have just historically cherry picked what suits u and left out what does not. The position of islamic sources (which for some reasons u deny, yet affirm ur above post by) clear

1. Abraham and ismael built the Kaaba
2. Over the centuries idolatry crept into the believe system of the Arabs
3. It eventually became so pervasive that they used the house of God- Kaaba - to store idols
4. When Islam came it destroyed such practice (idolatry) and it's symbols (idols) and reverted back to the true abrahamic faith and the purpose of the Kaaba.

So u just picked point 2 and 3 to prove ur point (which by the way are from Islamic sources) and threw out points 1 and 4

Nonetheless don't forget that what I asked for is for u to substantiate ur claim that Abraham didn't built the Kaaba, either through direct factual sources or logical deductions therefrom. Not what or what not the Kaaba was used for.

LagosShia: Abraham,Ishmael (as) and Their Relationship to Makkah As Testified In The Bible.


Hajj-Pilgrimage To Makkah (aka Bacca in the Quran) Psalm 84:4-7
"Blessed are those who dwell in your house;they are ever praising you.Selah Blessed are those whose strength is in you,who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.As they pass through the Valley of Baca,they make it a place of springs;the autumn rains also cover it with pools.They go from strength to strength,till each appears before God in Zion.Hear my prayer, O Lord God Almighty;listen to me, O God of Jacob.Selah Look upon our shield,c O God;look with favor on your anointed one.Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere;I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. For the Lord God is a sun and shield;the Lord bestows favor and honor;no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless. Lord Almighty,blessed is the man who trusts in you.

Pilgrimage of Ezekiel to Mecca:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ezekiel_pilgrimage.htm


Makkah in the Bible (below in quotes from the thread whose link appear right under here):
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-804239.64.html#msg9633958

I thought you guys say the Bible is false and unreliable. Why call the Bible to ''testify" in this matter?

Is it only true and reliable when it appears to back your side of the story?

*shakes head*

tiarabubu:

I thought you guys say the Bible is false and unreliable. Why call the Bible to ''testify" in this matter?

Is it only true and reliable when it appears to back your side of the story?

*shakes head*

hypocrites do not need to shake their heads even when they pretend ignorance.you are using an old tactic that i answered in this forum a long time ago-why muslims use the bible even though it is as apparent full of contradictions and errors?

LagosShia:
the bible as a whole is indeed corrupt and has being tampered with.therefore it is not the "infallible word of God" as the Quran is.that can be seen through internal evidence from the bible itself and from external evidence in terms of manuscripts and science.

your question is why do muslims still bring out verses from it and present it to convince the christians since the bible is corrupt?

firstly when the muslim presents those verses,he does so not to convince fellow muslims that islam is the truth.the muslim uses the bible to present islam as a kind gesture to our christian brothers.christians see the bible as the "word of God" and they believe in the bible.so it would be unreasonable for muslims to use the Quran to convince christians on particular issues.christians believe in the bible,so for them it is authoritative.

this is even more the case,because we muslims also believe in Jesus (as) and other biblical prophets (as).therefore using the bible to bring out verses that support islam and where those previous prophets (as) proved that they were muslims is important to demonstrate our conncetion and truthfulness and also to convince christians that those prophets and men of God in the bible were like us muslims and not like you christians,who in all your 1001 sects and denomination are polytheists and idolators.

you may still ask us,how do we accuse the bible on the one hand of being corrupt and on the other hand use it to support islam? are we not contradicting ourselves?

the answer definitely is a big NO!

then how so?

we are not contradicting ourselves.our stance on the bible itself is the following:

we believe that the bible contains at least up to 4 types of verses.

the first type are verses that are truly the word of God and they are consistent with Quranic teachings.example:

Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he.Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

the second type of verses found in the bible are those attributed to prophets based on what God taught them.example:

Mark 9:23
"'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."

the third type of verses found in the bible are the words of fallible men who are the scribes or historians.examples:

Mathew 9:9
"As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him".
(note that we are supposed to believe that the writer of the "book of Mathew" is Mathew himself according to christians,even thought we do know that the author is anonymous).


Deuteronomy 34:7
"Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone".
(note that we are meant to believe that it was Moses himself who authored Deuteronomy.one wonders how Moses could have written that he was 120 years old when he died after he had died!)


the fourth type of verses are verses that were tailored by the church either through adding or editing.when you compare the bible version of one church to the version of another church,you will clearly see that something is wrong as the passages of the same verse are either not consistent or are totally absent in the other's.those verses are tailored to fit church teachings and doctrines. two examples:

the catholic church and the doctrine of the trinity in the catholic version of the bible-(see below in quote)

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost

Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," represents a rare biblical reference to the Holy Trinity. However, the trinity did not become church doctrine until the third century, and even fourth century citations of this verse by Eusebius of Caesarea mention only baptizing in the name of Jesus, as do similar biblical passages (e.g. Acts 19:5).

1 John 5:7-8
The only other apparent scriptural Trinitarian reference is in 1 John 5:7-8, which reads, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the [u]Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the [/u]Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." The NIV omits the underlined portion, indicating in a footnote that it is "not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century."

to read more on interpolations in the bible and more examples,read here:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bible_interpolation#The_Father.2C_the_Son.2C_and_the_Holy_Ghost

the Jehovah's wtinesses and their belief in "Binity" in the 'New World Translation' version of the bible the witnesses use
they do not believe in trinity but they however believe Jesus is divine.they also play with words to establish their doctrine in the bible.

John 1:1
"In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god".

John 1:18
"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him".

the highlighted words (in the above two verses) are not found in other versions.they are interpolations added by them to establish Jesus' divinity since they deny the trinity and believe trinity is unbiblical.

furthermore,the tetragrammaton from which the word "Jehovah" is derived (a word nonexistent before the 16th century),does not appear once in the greek manuscripts of the new testament.they have replaced anywhere the words "lord" and "god" are found with "Jehovah" on the supposition that the word could have being lost from hebrew or aramaic during translation and writing into greek.all this is to establish their belief in what they believe to be the only "unique name of God".if Jesus did not utter the word they believe the name of God is,then alot can be said.and if the most basic knowledge which is the name of God is supposedly lost in the new testament as they try to explain why it is absent,then how many more complex things,narrations and words could also have gone missing?

i will conclude by quoting the bible as evidence against itself:

Jeremiah 8:8
“How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie".

^^^^
by your admission the Bible is corrupt- why use it to validate your stand?

If you are sure of what you are writing and the Bible is corrupt why not search for secular proofs to back up your claims?

Show us archeological proofs then! or even secular writings to back up your claims! Show us - without the Bible and based on Islamic text ONLY - facts about your Jewish prophets.

We Christians never reference Islamic writings to validate the Bible. We turn to archeological proofs and other juxtapositions of place and time to authenticate Biblical writings. Just Google "Biblical Archeology" and see validations made time and again, and others waiting for validation.

What more powerful proof can one get?

By quoting the Bible to validate your position, you give it credence. Its like referencing an encyclopedia. The encyclopedia - quoted time and again - is for ever better than the secondary material its text are used to support.

For every quote you make from it weakens your argument against it. It advertises it as THE SOURCE from whom all else seek legitimacy - its inevitable really cos it is the SOURCE. Hate it yet you can help but relay on it, despise it but you will still need it within the hour. You will rant about this post in a couple of hours but i know you will need to quote from it (bible) again pretty soon.

Its pure common sense really.

We allow you to quote from it in silence, and we will pretend its not awkward and silly on your part to do so - quoting from a book you deride.

tiarabubu: ^^^^
by your admission the Bible is corrupt- why use it to validate your stand?

If you are sure of what you are writing and the Bible is corrupt why not search for secular proofs to back up your claims?

Show us archeological proofs then! or even secular writings to back up your claims! Show us - without the Bible and based on Islamic text ONLY - facts about your Jewish prophets.

We Christians never reference Islamic writings to validate the Bible. We turn to archeological proofs and other juxtapositions of place and time to authenticate Biblical writings. Just Google "Biblical Archeology" and see validations made time and again, and others waiting for validation.

What more powerful proof can one get?

By quoting the Bible to validate your position, you give it credence. Its like referencing an encyclopedia. The encyclopedia - quoted time and again - is for ever better than the secondary material its text are used to support.

For every quote you make from it weakens your argument against it. It advertises it as THE SOURCE from whom all else seek legitimacy - its inevitable really cos it is the SOURCE. Hate it yet you can help but relay on it, despise it but you will still need it within the hour. You will rant about this post in a couple of hours but i know you will need to quote from it (bible) again pretty soon.

Its pure common sense really.

We allow you to quote from it in silence, and we will pretend its not awkward and silly on your part to do so - quoting from a book you deride.

my friend,repetition does not serve your case any good.you asked why muslims quote the bible even when the bible is corrupt and the answer was given to you in details.

archeological evidence is used when it comes to history and artifacts.in the links i presented earlier on Makkah and the Ka'bah i have given archeological evidence to show the relationship between Makkah and the israelites.you are just trying to spill the argument further since you have been cornered with an answer to your bible question.

i do not know why a christian would ask for archaeological proof over his own bible.or do you think this is a tactic against ignorance and uneducated muslims? try a better trick next time!

^^^ Archeological proofs validate the Bible to the world and reinforces faith. Other faith based books aren't that spot on.

Actually I am more concerned about your penchant for using the Bible to try to validate your writing not just here but elsewhere. I care little about your argument here.

I am just saying you are better off quoting less of the Bible to lend credence to your religious points. Eg Makka in the Bible, Abrahamic journey and lineage, Islamic kingdoms, prophets of old etc

Its best you stick to Islamic writings

Shei you get?

^ When archeology supports the bible you accept it, but fail to recognize the many other times the bible fails in this regard. And there are many, for instance today archeologists claim that there were no wall in Jericho because cities were not built with walls in that age. The use of 'pharaoh' for the leader of egypt at the time of abraham and Joseph is wrong. I can go on and on.

So the bible contains some archeological facts, this is to be expected from any historical book... But it also contains some archeological fails, again expected from any work of man.So, archeology is not the science that will validate your book.

As regards using quotes from the bible, It depends on your audience and the place... If i am talking to a christian audience, i might want to use a book they revere. However, if i am talking to a atheist, i might use scholarly work. Some words of God still exist in the bible, it is just muddled up with the word of the prophet, the historian and God knows who else.

The Quran confirms what is true in your book.

tbaba1234: ^ When archeology supports the bible you accept it, but fail to recognize the many other times the bible fails in this regard. And there are many, for instance today archeologists claim that there were no wall in Jericho because cities were not built with walls in that age. The use of 'pharaoh' for the leader of egypt at the time of abraham and Joseph is wrong. I can go on and on.

So the bible contains some archeological facts, this is to be expected from any historical book... But it also contains some archeological fails, again expected from any work of man.So, archeology is not the science that will validate your book.

As regards using quotes from the bible, It depends on your audience and the place... If i am talking to a christian audience, i might want to use a book they revere. However, if i am talking to a atheist, i might use scholarly work. Some words of God still exist in the bible, it is just muddled up with the word of the prophet, the historian and God knows who else.

The Quran confirms what is true in your book.

well said.

let me also add that no matter the evidence which exists on the ka'ba and makkah,it will still boil down to be described as muslim or islamic evidence.makkah over 1400 years fell into the hands of muslims and all its people embraced islam.whatever existed before islam whether in writing or orally was subsequently transmitted by muslims.

moreover,someone cannot come from no where with no context or topic and demand for archaeological proof.there are instances from the Quran where archaelogical proof can be given.and the Quran as it is fails in no point at all when it comes to it claims particularly relating to the sciences.