An Historical Query!

Islam asserts that Abraham nearly sacrificed Ishmael, while Christianity says it was Isaac that was taken to the mountain. Which historical account should we take, or what could be wrong with the seemingly conflicting claims.

it was issac now!!!!!! anan!!!!

i believe everyone should choose what they want to believe. i choose chirstianity i therefore belive that Abraham almost sacrificed Issac. Thank you.

he almost sacrifice Isaac
where did ishmael come from?

ishmael was the child he had with haggai i think. haggai was one of the maids. ishmael was the "illegitimate" child

i guess we should not be bothered about whether it was isaac or ishmael. the bottomline is that he nearly sacrificed his son.
the person involved doesn't matter as long as we know the significance of the whole story

i guess we should not be bothered about whether it was isaac or ishmael.

I am bothered, friend, and that's why I started this thread. Why should these two great books give different account of the same event. A lot of our religion is based on the premise that the two books are from God. If they are truly from Him, and God, as I know Him is not double-tongued, then I care for some clarification on this historical anomaly . So if you can figure it out, please do speak out!

I'd agree with you that it matters who was the son in particular that Abraham would have sacrificed. The answer determines who has been on the wrong track of life's journey: if Ishmael, then Christians got it wrong; if Isaac, then Muslims got it wrong. We both have our convictions of one or the other based on interpretations of the Bible or the Qur'an. You scored a good point by asking for historical verification as to who exactly could have been the 'son' in question.

At this time, I haven't thought much on it from the historical perspective - I've had reasons from the Bible itself to believe the son in question was Isaac. . . reasons which, if you so desire me, I'd be glad and willing to share. Perhaps also, if I come up with anything that sheds light on the historical antecedence, you'll read it soonest here. However, my faith is anchored in the belief that the prophetic significance is so overwhelming as to pass lightly for any other than Isaac.

it was Isaac he almost sacrificed, not Ishamael

At the end of the day almost both of them
Isaac with his own hand as god ask him to
And Ishamael by sending him away with his mother.
The bible tells us Ishamael almost died but God promised his Mother he will make of him a great Nation .

Isaac. Read your bible.

Like I said earlier, I'm only trying to see which event is historically valid. Most of what we call history are not objective reports of events as they really happened. Man will likely 'tilt' history to favour him. This is strictly my opinion. The Qouran was evidently written after the Bible and these two books are a great library for students of history. I would greatly appreciate it if we can approach the subject matter from an historical perspective devoid of our religious sentiment, if that is possible!

abbgstar,

pardon me, but you left me all the more puzzled with your enquiry. There are a few questions I'd like to ask, if you don't mind:

(a) how does the verification help you personally - are you a believer (Muslim or Christian)?

(b) how do you hope to solve the mystery of your enquiry from a historical perspective?

(c) what is informing your enquiry - do you have something to share for our mutual benefit, or ___ . .?

(d) do you believe any other record in either books (Bible and Qur'an) - and why?

So many questions, but perhaps I might have something useful to share once you let me understand where you're coming from.

Kind regards.

u people have started again, ishamel neraly sacrificed?

Moh@mmed was born 570 years after Christ. He modified the scriptures to suite his politico-religious agenda.

The book of Hebrews (written at least 500 years before Moh@mmed) corroborates the OT==>

Hebrews 11:17-19 -->

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son"

the qu'ran doesnt even support the muuslim fantasy that Ishmael was the son sacrificed.
In the chapter refering to this story in the qu'ran, Isaac is mentioned, ishmael is mentioned ZERO times.

First of all, i would like all the christians to open their bible to Gen 17:7-14,24 Almighty God made an everlasting convenant with Abraham(pbuh), then He (Abraham) was 99year then, Isaac(pbuh) was not born then and God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his only son. The question now is, How old was Abraham when he wants to sacrifice his only son, Who is the first born son of Abraham, ?

imhotep:

What gave Moh@mmed the audacity to modify the OT 570 years after Christ??

I think you should rephrase the question to "Why did they deceive us that it was Isaac?" Probably to make ishmael less important. Your question to the my interpretation is just like you saying: "Why should God speak the truth?". You see why you maybe seen cruel?!

Frizy:

I think you should rephrase the question to "Why did they deceive us that it was Isaac?" Probably to make ishmael less important. Your question to the my interpretation is just like you saying: "Why should God speak the truth?". You see why you maybe seen cruel?!

Anybody can claim that God/angels spoke to him/her. Its the easy way out. Especially when it comes 570 years after the major events. How suspicious.

Frizy:

@Femi 1
Good question

@4 Him
Lie of the century

1. Femi1 asked a daft question that exposes the fact that he hasnt properly read the biblical story he is claiming to be referencing.
2. Pls do me a favour, post the qu'ranicn version of that story here quickly before i do. (i will post it here in a few hrs).

Femi 1:

First of all, i would like all the christians to open their bible to Gen 17:7-14,24 Almighty God made an everlasting convenant with Abraham(pbuh)

You decietful son, read verse 19 of the very same chapter you quoted - 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

No ambiguity there, God clearly spelled out who was going to be the recipient of the covenant He made with Abraham . . . it certainly wasnt Ishmael.

Femi 1:

then He (Abraham) was 99year then, Isaac(pbuh) was not born then and God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his only son.

1. Isaac was born in Genesis 21.
2. The commandment to sacrifice his son was recorded in Genesis 22 when Isaac was already born, old enough to talk, bear the wood on his head and walk a long journey to the mountains.
3. Ishmael was sent away with his mother in Genesis 21.

Now which son did Abraham go to sacrifice? Isaac who lived with him or Ishmael who was already married in Genesis 21?

Femi 1:

The question now is, How old was Abraham when he wants to sacrifice his only son, Who is the first born son of Abraham, ?

these are very irrelevant questions meant to chase shadows than deal with the real issue at stake.

4Him welldone with your response to those deceived, gullible and confused believers in the Q'uran,
One can only pray that their eyes would one day be open to the truth that is staring them in the retina

First of all, i would like all the christians to open their bible to Gen 17:7-14,24 Almighty God made an everlasting convenant with Abraham(pbuh), then He (Abraham) was 99year then, Isaac(pbuh) was not born then and God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his only son. The question now is, How old was Abraham when he wants to sacrifice his only son, Who is the first born son of Abraham, ?

I'm sorry dear, this does not speak on the sacrifice but the covenant of circumcision. In this chapter God also told Abraham that Sarah was to give birth to Isaac.

In Genesis 21, God sends Ishmael and his mother away, as Sarah demanded.
In Genesis 22, God tests Abraham by asking him to sacrifice his son.

Ishmael was already gone.

The esteemed people who are not musl'lims, please read the below article, But please post your Biblical response so that I can read it, them. .


The Story of Ibrahim's sacrifice

olabowale:

And how did the Biblical storytellers know about the story of "Ishmael", especially the "Desert years and decades" till the end of his life in Makka?

- neither does the qu'ran have all you accuse the bible storytellers of not knowing. Where are the detailed stories of Ishmael in the qu'ran? The bible gives us a very accurate depiction of God's dealings with the jews for a good 4000 yrs with specific details and dates . . . where is all'ah's own story of his time with ishmael and his descendants? where are his prophets? who were his descendants?

Why do you expect the bible to contain tales of ishmael's desert yrs? The bible is only concerned with the history of those to whom the covenant was made (Isaac) . . . everyone else shld go find their own book.

olabowale:

because we see that even the Jews and now the Christians know about Ishmael's life, inclusively. Even the Bible recorded his marital status!

isnt it funny that such details are CLEARLY ABSENT from the very qu'ran that is supposed to have come from his descendants?

olabowale:

Now to Jacob;

uncle, what has the question got to do with jacob? Was he alive when the sacrifice was to take place too?
Are you so deluded and empty of excuses to cover for the qu'ran's many lies that you now have to resort to genuflecting?

You have indeed written a long epistle, what is glaring though is the clear lack of anything pertinent on the topic.

olabowale:

As usual, when falsehood is defeated on intellectual grounds it resorts to plotting and oppression.

this is the story of isl'am.

olabowale:

He left the land of his fathers to become a stranger in the land of promise.

This is evidently stolen shamelessly from the bible. What land of promise?
Why was this land the possession of the Jews and judaism for up to 4000yrs now? Is this why the "palestinians" and arabs are vehement on destroying the land of Israel today? Could it be because deep down you all know that as long as this nation lives it puts a blatant lie to the qu'ran?

olabowale:

So there was joy and rejoicing in Ibrahim's house as Ismail was quickly growing under the sun of his father's love.
But God decided that it was not to remain so.
Ibrahim was to be tried once more. Ibrahim had a vision in which he was commanded by God to slaughter his only son.
Why should Ibrahim, whose entire life was devoted to prophethood, to Jihaad, to removing ignorance, to laying the foundations of tawheed be tried once again ?

here is the problem . . . this has no basis in the qu'ran.

olabowale:

How can Ibrahim take his beloved son, the fruit of his life, the joy of his heart, the meaning of his living and staying, his Ismail, and hold him on the ground, put a knife to his throat and kill him ?
If it were only the slaughter of Ibrahim at the hand of Ismail, how easy ! But no ! The young Ismail must die and the old and aged Ibrahim must remain !

ismail's name is not ONCE mentioned in the qu'ran's rendering of this story. Issac's name however appears at least TWICE.
The writer of this article has in the very same spirit of isl'amic deciet smuggled it in.

It also exposes another problem . . . what was al'lah's purpose for telling abraham to sacrifice his son? What is the qu'ranic significance of this "test"?

olabowale:

But Ibrahim, khalil-ul-God, the intimate friend of God

It is impossible for a slave to be an intimate friend of God. The qu'ran is in serious danger of contradicting itself in the shameless aim of copying the bible.

olabowale:

In Mina, an amazing and frightening conversation between a father and a son took place.
Ibrahim said to Ismail : "O my Son, I see in a vision that I offer you in sacrifice. Now see what is your view ? " (37:102)

Thou man of deciet . . . this is how the qu'ran renders this passage - And when (his son) was old enough to walk with him, (Abraham) said: O my dear son, I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice thee. So look, what thinkest thou ? He said: O my father! Do that which thou art commanded. God willing, thou shalt find me of the steadfast.

where is ismail's name mentioned?

Long tales . . . devoid of truth.

@Davidylan: You only have a lots of words, but short on substance. I know you can't fair better since all you have is the Bible! No wonder.

- neither does the qu'ran have all you accuse the bible storytellers of not knowing. Where are the detailed stories of Ishmael in the qu'ran? The bible gives us a very accurate depiction of God's dealings with the jews for a good 4000 years with specific details and dates . . . where is all'ah's own story of his time with ishmael and his descendants? where are his prophets? who were his descendants?

For a smart man, you are behaving foolishly. Common sense should have told you that Mu'slims do not rely on the Bible for anything. It is our reference book and we do not draw inferences from it. You should simply gone on google and type on the search: Ismail in Qur'an or specific aspect of subject you will like to know! Below is a partial information gotten from my search:


Ishmeal

[Quote]: isnt it funny that such details are CLEARLY ABSENT from the very qu'ran that is supposed to have come from his descendants?[/quote]



Your problem, David is that you have ignorantly overlooked the fact that Mu'hammad was a clear descendant of ismail (as), who you struggle to discredit. The Makkans are his apparent descendants, as well as the whole Arab people. The Qur'an staes that it is to warm the mother of the villages (town, city, place), whose people have not been warned before. Since the Children of Isaac through Jacob (we have now forgotten Esau; very typical of the jews and their sorrogate Christians to ignore first son, by hook or by crook; David are you the first son? If so be aware that somebody in the family is plotting your demise to usurp your place of honor! lol. But you are my friend so this is a leg up for you in warning), have failed in their effort to carry on the message of One God in a sincere manner, it is no surprise God took up the case with the true first son, only son at a time and a promise to be fulfilled through Mu'hammad.

But of course you are too lazy to check the Qur/an for facts. But you are never to slow to spew out the many lies you have been fed, from the "good book!"




[Quote]; uncle, what has the question got to do with jacob? Was he alive when the sacrifice was to take place too?
Are you so deluded and empty of excuses to cover for the qu'ran's many lies that you now have to resort to genuflecting?

You have indeed written a long epistle, what is glaring though is the clear lack of anything pertinent on the topic.[/quote]


Even though you were brief in your material responses, unfortunately each lacked substances. All you do is many questions upon others. When I mentioned jacob, it was not talking about his being alive at the time of the trial of sacrifice of his Uncle. But that he knew and saw his father's older brother. He also made sure that his own children knew about him, too. I know you couldn't get it by inference alone. I forgot to spell it out for you.

Below, in my next post you will see other materials about Ismail from the Qur'an. Then I will leave you alone to make good academic research on him. Lol.

too many google and wikipedia entries. Where are the QU'RANIC sources?
That, my dear, is the key to unlocking this riddle.

@Davidylan: Below is dedicated to you. Enjoy. Please readall the way through. Your Paradise depends on this. maybe you leave what you are now, along with multitudes of people to safety in worship. Notice the Qur/anic verses from 99 t0 113 to see that Isaac was Jara to Ibrahiim after the sacrifice had been carried out. And how is it possible that God could have confirmed the news of the birth of isaac and even the later future news of his son Jacob and then turn around, just many years later to ask for the sacrifice of the infant at best Isaac? How will he be a father he was to be sacrifice as an infant? Would not it seems to anyone that it will not be possible for god to promise something and then demands in commandment the essential condition to make that thing impossible?

It also is surprising to see how such an infant could be a forbearing child, considering that 2 years are called terrible 2 and 3 years are called even worse. I have not been in that trade in a while, but you have never even venture there anyway. Only a teenage boy can be described as patient/forbearing, not an infant, David. Duh!

@~Lady~: You see how important the question asked about the age of Ibrahiim when the sacrifice was taking place? Afterall, he was 99 years old when Isaac was born and Ismail was already a teenager then. But more importantly, even before isaac was born, the news of his son Jacob was given to Sarah at the same time Isaac birth news was being given! You would then agree that God would not be asking for Isaac head when he was supposed to stay alive long enough to have a son named Jacob!


The Sacrifice Of Abraham: Isaac or Ishmael

Source:http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/MusTrad/sacrifice.html

olabowale:

~Lady~: I almost blushed. If you know what I mean. A black man saying he almost blushed. I am referring to your red/rouge analog. Bible is corrupt for one, Paul's letters are from him and not from God!

Its ironic that the stories in Qur"an where there are similar characters with whats in the Bible, do not exactly have the same complete story lines. Yet there are many chapters of the Qur"an where you find nothing similar in the Bible! So your saying that without Judaism and Christianity Islaam would have been nothing, is incorrect. Without God Islaam would have been nothing! Thats the correct and true statement. Afterall, the Mu/slims depend on God alone. The mu/slims say that Qu/r'an is the words of God, alone.

It's obvious to everyone that Mo copied Bible passages and miscopied most when he wrote the ko'ran.
Haven't I showed you valid proofs?
Don't you wonder why he asked you to ask us when you're in doubt?

Olabowale you keep hammering on.

People could easily turn round to you and ask how could anyone believe the words of a man who married an 8year old child?

It wasnt a group of people who heard these words it was Mo-ham-ed alone wheres YOUR proof it was from God.

Look you need to deal with the fact that Judaism and Christainity have been here hundreds of years before Is-lam. Your religion is sooooooooo pure yet you still have certain sections almost identical to the Bible and Torah in your holy bok

Please stop this madness your not converting anyone here.

Hello all/Olabowale

I must say how I enjoy reading Olabowale’s write-ups, compared to other Great ones, you see his approach and maturity in dealing with issues even though highly misinformed, and not oriented to Truth, he takes his time to show and state the position of the Koran.

However I see the Biblical concept on Trinity is a bit of a hard nut for the Great ones to chew, and I have noticed how the issue of numerous writers of the Bible seem to create a stumbling block to them also.

To all Great ones, unlike the ‘claimed’ inspiration that only your Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) received (to unilaterally write out the entire Koran), it is not so with the Bible. The writers of the Bible, the different men were all moved by God to write out the content of the plan of God for man. The coalesce of all the write ups of the Bible can only be that it is truly divine as no disparity exists in their messages. Can you imagine 66 books from several men of the Bible all saying the same thing, attesting to the same person? A seamless continuity exists between the Old and New Testament; we have one echoing the other. All these number of writers all arriving at the same truth.

I wonder how The Great ones can be sure that Mohammed (PBUH) really did not plagiarize the Bible (kindly note, I am not saying he did), but objectively speaking, if you were not a Great one, would you not think that he did.
No one else but him only saw this vision of his, there was no one to collaborate this sayings, maybe he was hallucinating when he said he saw an Angel. The record of only one man must be taken with heavy scrutiny and subject to intense Laboratory test to ascertain it’s varacity, particularly, when as even the Koran says, where no witnesses exists.

Very Unlike the Inspired pages of the scripture where men from different generation all spoke concerning the same person, the same truth. Not only that, a lot of the things predicted have either been fulfilled or are all falling into place now and the coming future.

The words of Paul in scripture are as authentic as the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, because these words all originate from God. The Lord knowing this day will come told us already that “ no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will……”

Concerning the Trinity, The Great ones saying that it was not known in the Old Testament is untrue.

Just to mention a few things to you, I am sure you can verify it yourself, but in the Biblical account of creation in Genesis, the word translated ‘God’ in Genesis 1:1 is the Hebrew word Elohim, (as in Elohim created the heavens and the earth)This word is a uniplural word that should be translated the The ‘Gods’ created the heavens and the earth. The Hebrew word ‘Elohim’ is a Uniplural word. All three members of the GodHead were involved in creation. The Father conceived the plan; The Son accomplished creation (John 1: 1-3; Col. 1:16; Heb 1:2); and the Holy Spirit restored creation (Gen 1:2).
Another scripture of the old testament that attests to the plurality of God is found in Isaiah 48:16.

It is very true that the oneness of the Godhead was in focus in the Old Testament (ie His Essence) but in the Church Age which we now leave in, their individuality is now emphasized, because the church Age believer is united with Jesus Christ forever. Let me spare you doctrinal truths as you most certainly cannot bear nor understand them.

Jesus keeps on being The Way, The Truth and The Life.

Thank you.

here it is

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-106556.0.html#msg1863031

@ poster, you want to make me think twice.its isaac jo