I am becoming more and more convinced that this doctrine of the human soul living forever in everlasting torment just does not add up.

Romans 6:23
King James Version (KJV)
"23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him." - Ezekiel 18:20

Romans 5:12
"Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned:"
The soul that sins shall die.

James 1:15 "Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

But yet, we are told by not a few Christians, that the soul will not die but live forever in everlasting flames.

To achieve this , they explain that death means seperation from GDO even though this is not mentioned anywhere in the bible. Death simply means Death.

Two types of death :

1. Physical - Curse on humanity after the initial fall

2. Spiritual - final death after the rejection of GOD's mercy and the spurning of his LOVE.


Physical Death is not separation from God at the physical death because sinners and believers experience this first phase.

Spiritual death is the destruction of the soul of man, since the bible says that the soul that sins it shall die, die it will. To suggest otherwise is actually twisting scripture or wresting bible verses to match up with our opinion on a matter.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

Here it explicitly mentions that the soul and body will be destroyed in hell, yet we are told destruction does not mean ruin or utter waste as the dictionary explains , instead it means seperation.

Let us discuss this topic using scripture , not human imagination to analyse the issues.

Thank You

Why are people scared of this topic like a hot potato ??

what we have been telling you for ages and you thought we are crazy. now you are finally getting to the realization. i guess some people need a bit longer time than others before they can deviate and detach from their 'learned false doctrine'

should be back here later in the day. note though that death is simply separation, not only separation from God. one can be separate from the world i.e dead to the world.

you just called god gdo. Expect an admin ban soon.

Image123: should be back here later in the day. note though that death is simply separation, not only separation from God. one can be separate from the world i.e dead to the world.

Show me in the bible where death means seperation, it does not !!

'Dead to the world' is a metaphor. It literally means , to be in an oblivious state to the corruption in the world and the system thereof.

We should really begin to examine the scriptures and stop believing anything and everything we have heard from childhood.

Examine the scriptures !!

@frosbel

Show me in the bible where death means seperation, it does not !!

'Dead to the world' is a metaphor. It literally means , to be in an oblivious state to the corruption in the world and the system thereof.

We should really begin to examine the scriptures and stop believing anything and everything we have heard from childhood.

Examine the scriptures !!

Death is basically separation my friend, just as true life is connection to God. Anyone who is not connected to God is considered dead in scriptures and in God's view, hence scriptures like let the dead bury their dead, and in the day you eat of that tree, you will die.

Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

alienated from the life of God. These refers to people that are alive in our physical sense, but spiritually dead.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam and Eve surely died the moment they ate of that tree. They lost connection/network/fellowship with God, and went into hiding. Their spirits became 'dead' to God. God is a Spirit, and they that worship MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth.
A dead body is simply/basically separated from his inside man. When a man dies physically, he gives up his spirit/ghost i.e his spirit departs from him.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
To God, and godly language, a dead believer is not dead in that sense we mention 'dead', instead he is sleeping(in sleep mode) or has gone home to be with the Lord. But a sinner even while yet alive is dead because he/she is separated from God.
It is this death/separation that our Lord was said to have feared i.e a separation from God which happened while He was on the cross, and He cried Eli Eli lamasabathani.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Of course, it's not the physical death he feared, that one He freely gave His life for.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

As believers, we are supposed to be dead to sin i.e separated from sin.
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
i should stop here now, i hope to contribute on other similar threads around. please read through and ask questions if not clear. thanks.

Logic Mind: you just called god gdo. Expect an admin ban soon.

Image123: @frosbel


Death is basically separation my friend, just as true life is connection to God. Anyone who is not connected to God is considered dead in scriptures and in God's view, hence scriptures like let the dead bury their dead, and in the day you eat of that tree, you will die.

Death means Death , Pal.

When God pronounced death on Adam , it did not happen immediately - Point 1

Adam was chased away from the garden because if HE had taken of the fruit of the tree of life and eaten he we would have lived forever - Point 2

The initial death sentence came to fruition when Adam and his subsequent descendants all experienced death , albeit physically - point 3

At the beginning when Adam sinned he was alienated from God's eternal life but he was not yet dead, let us stick to scripture.

Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Alienated from the life of God simply means that they will never experience eternal life and will die in their sins eventually with no chance for a remedy.

alienated from the life of God. These refers to people that are alive in our physical sense, but spiritually dead.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam and Eve surely died the moment they ate of that tree. They lost connection/network/fellowship with God, and went into hiding. Their spirits became 'dead' to God. God is a Spirit, and they that worship MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth.

You seem to be helping us redefine death !!

Death is death.

Death is a sentence , but in most cases it is not carried out immediately because God is giving us a chance to repent of our sins and lay hold of eternal life.

A dead body is simply/basically separated from his inside man. When a man dies physically, he gives up his spirit/ghost i.e his spirit departs from him.

His spirit does not belong to him , it is the breath of God that gave him life and returns to GOD.

"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." - Ecclesiastes 12:7

Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

"If God were to take back his spirit and withdraw his breath" - Job 34:14

Job 12:10 In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind.

Psalm 104:29 When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
To God, and godly language, a dead believer is not dead in that sense we mention 'dead', instead he is sleeping(in sleep mode) or has gone home to be with the Lord. But a sinner even while yet alive is dead because he/she is separated from God.

No believer has gone home to be with the Lord.

This happens at the time of the Resurrection.

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." - John 3:13

It is this death/separation that our Lord was said to have feared i.e a separation from God which happened while He was on the cross, and He cried Eli Eli lamasabathani.

On the cross , the sins of the whole world were laid on his shoulders,God was pleased to bruise him for you and for me and the entire human race. God never forsook his son.

"Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand." - Isaiah 53:10

By His very nature, our heavenly Father could not turn away from His only begotten Son, especially at the moment for which God has been preparing him all of his life. Jesus Christ was the crux of history, the one on whose shoulders the salvation of mankind was riding, the one who trusted his Father step by step all the way to this defining moment of His-story. And then God forsook him? That just doesn't make sense. More importantly, it is not what the Bible says.- Source / Truth or Tradition.

You are just repeating tradition, things we have learnt without basis from our childhood.

Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Of course, it's not the physical death he feared, that one He freely gave His life for.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

He revered God , simple !

He loved the Father and 'feared ' him in the sense that he esteemed God's will of utmost importance for the salvation of mankind , he did not deviate from the plan but stayed to the end.

As believers, we are supposed to be dead to sin i.e separated from sin.
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
i should stop here now, i hope to contribute on other similar threads around. please read through and ask questions if not clear. thanks.

Dead to sin simply means that we identify with the death of Christ signifying the crucifixion of our lusts and passions , but more importantly also his resurrection by a new and living way through the power of the Spirit.

"This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!" - 2 Corinthians 5:17

Again , the idea that death means separation is just not true !!


Just to add a number of points.

The bible says the wages of sin is DEATH not EVERLASTING TORTURE , this is a Catholic pagan sourced Myth.

The bible says the soul that sins shall DIE not go into EVERLASTING TORTURE.

Jesus came to save us from DEATH not everlasting torture.

@frosbel
no qualms then. Just make sure you stay in God's life and make it to Heaven, that's most important than understanding or explaining deaths. i'll not really bother re-replying after this except ithink it very necessary.

Death means Death , Pal.

When God pronounced death on Adam , it did not happen immediately - Point 1

So God was speaking with tongue in cheek when He said the scriptures i quote below.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam was chased away from the garden because if HE had taken of the fruit of the tree of life and eaten he we would have lived forever - Point 2

One can be alive physically and yet have no Life in him. Same way one can be physically dead and yet not dead. It would have been terrible if Adam ate of the tree of life afterwards. God sent him out out of love for we humans. Imagine if no man ever died, evil men would forever be evil and treating us all in evil. Many political rulers will never leave the seat of power. See how much people wish for the death of the likes of Hitler, Abacha and co. Imagine if their likes were physically alive forever, and the likes of terrible thieves and other such sinners. they would do themselves and the world more harm than good. they are still going to live in eternal damnation like sodom and gomorrah would. A life without God's eternal Life is no life before God, even though in the world we might say the person is living a long life, or living a large life.

The initial death sentence came to fruition when Adam and his subsequent descendants all experienced death , albeit physically - point 3

At the beginning when Adam sinned he was alienated from God's eternal life but he was not yet dead, let us stick to scripture.

Again, the Word of God ichoose, and let God be true.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
the same trick that Eve fell for, and we think she was a dumbo?

(CEV) except the one that has the power to let you know the difference between right and wrong. If you eat any fruit from that tree, you will die before the day is over!"
(GNB) except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad. You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day."

You seem to be helping us redefine death !!

Death is death.

Death is a sentence , but in most cases it is not carried out immediately because God is giving us a chance to repent of our sins and lay hold of eternal life.

i'm not redefining death, only giving a biblical perspective. there are different types of death, physical death, spiritual death, death to the world, death to self etc. Paul said i die daily. He was truly dead and crucified with Christ. He urged us to mortify the things of the flesh. All these are types of death in the Bible, it's not a private idea.

His spirit does not belong to him , it is the breath of God that gave him life and returns to GOD.

"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." - Ecclesiastes 12:7

Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

"If God were to take back his spirit and withdraw his breath" - Job 34:14

Job 12:10 In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind.

Psalm 104:29 When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.

There is no argument about who owns all spirits so no need for the many verses. The argument is that death is separation. When a man dies, his spirit is separated/disconnected/detached/taken away from his body.

No believer has gone home to be with the Lord.

This happens at the time of the Resurrection.

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." - John 3:13

Anyone who dies in Christ is in Christ. He has gone to what may be referred to as rest or paradise.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that t[b]hey should rest yet for a little season,[/b] until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The altar by the way is before God in Heaven. please let's rightly divide the Bible.
The ressurection morning involves when believers would be given changed BODIES, and raised as it were, from their sleep.

On the cross , the sins of the whole world were laid on his shoulders,God was pleased to bruise him for you and for me and the entire human race. God never forsook his son.

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Your quote here is insidious and an indictment on our Lord Jesus Christ.

Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psa 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

By His very nature, our heavenly Father could not turn away from His only begotten Son, especially at the moment for which God has been preparing him all of his life. Jesus Christ was the crux of history, the one on whose shoulders the salvation of mankind was riding, the one who trusted his Father step by step all the way to this defining moment of His-story. And then God forsook him? That just doesn't make sense. More importantly, it is not what the Bible says.- Source / Truth or Tradition.

You are just repeating tradition, things we have learnt without basis from our childhood.

i'm surprised to say the least. So it now has to 'make sense' to be true or believed upon. Be watchful, iadvice you as a brother. You may also check up sound commentaries on that verse and hear from sound believersinstead of pushing out the tradition card. That something is traditionally accepted does not make it wrong, it is traditionally accepted that Jesus died on the cross and rose again.

[quote author=Image123]

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Your quote here is insidious and an indictment on our Lord Jesus Christ.

Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psa 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.


i'm surprised to say the least. So it now has to 'make sense' to be true or believed upon. Be watchful, iadvice you as a brother. You may also check up sound commentaries on that verse and hear from sound believersinstead of pushing out the tradition card. That something is traditionally accepted does not make it wrong, it is traditionally accepted that Jesus died on the cross and rose again.

Because of time, I will also respond to just 2 points starting with this one.

Sometimes we feel God has forsaken us , this does not mean that he has.

God bruised him on the cross for our iniquities, he did not forsake him.

Image123: @frosbel
no qualms then. Just make sure you stay in God's life and make it to Heaven, that's most important than understanding or explaining deaths. i'll not really bother re-replying after this except ithink it very necessary.

So God was speaking with tongue in cheek when He said the scriptures i quote below.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God pronounced a sentence of death on ADAM , an irreversible curse.

Soon after men began to reap this curse of death.

Adam did not die immediately , the bible did not say he did , this is your understanding !

"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return." - Genesis 3:19

The above scripture shows us exactly when God pronounced death on the human race. Let us stick to scripture .

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned —

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Where Did "Eternal Burning Hell" Come From?

This doctrine came right out of paganism and pagan religions. You can find it in Egyptian literature, and you will read it in Greek and Roman literature. "Eternal Hell" is based on a doctrinal error of the "immortal soul" which came from the Occult and brought into Christianity through the Catholic Church, and it was adopted into the Protestant movement from Popery. Read carefully the next quote from history; "Let it be registered as the genuine genealogy, that Pagan Plato was its father, and the profligate Pope Leo its fosterfather. Born and bred by the Pagan philosophy, the protégé of Popery, this notion of the soul's immortality has become a pet dogma of popular Protestantism, which with a strange forgetfulness of its low lineage, openly declares it to be the honorable offspring of a true orthodoxy!" Mr. Panton Ham, of Bristol England. "You Greeks believe that the soul is created, and yet is made immortal by God, according to the doctrine of Plato." Josephus, Dissertation on Hades. Listen to what Plato has to say; "...Souls are God. They go two ways after death; the wicked to the place of torment, the pure and innocent to the August assembly of the gods." Plato. This widely believed doctrine, of the immortal soul and eternal hell, came straight from PAGANISM! The Jews did not believe this false teaching until their captivity. "It is indeed known that the immortality of the soul was not known to the Jews, but by commerce which they had with the Assyrians during the time of their captivity." Herodotus, p.111. The Jews lost their doctrinal purity through an unlawful relationship with the heathens!



[/b]Thoughts From History!

[b]Justin Martyr said, "lf you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this truth, and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians." (A.D. 165).

William Tyndale wrote, "In putting departed souls in heaven, hell and purgatory, you destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection."

Dear friend, how can you believe that God is love and believe, at the same time, that He bums people throughout eternity? To believe this, friend, is to say that Adolf Hitler is more merciful than God is! Hitler tortured his victims, but he finally put them out of their misery, and you're saying, God is not as merciful.

The truth is that God does burn the wicked, including Satan and his angels, but it only lasts until they are burned up into ASHES.

Because of time, I will also respond to just 2 points starting with this one.

Sometimes we feel God has forsaken us , this does not mean that he has.

God bruised him on the cross for our iniquities, he did not forsake him.

i don't recall how i skipped this. So you are saying Jesus Christ only felt that God had forsaken Him. You are saying this based on what? If only you understood the crucifixion, then you would know that you just denied the very premise why Christ died FOR us. He suffered for us. Our separation, sin, judgement and co was on Him. He bore it all for us. He was forsaken so that we would never be forsaken and ashamed. He wasn't mincing words or deluded when He said and the Spirit of God recorded,

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

God pronounced a sentence of death on ADAM , an irreversible curse.

Soon after men began to reap this curse of death.

Adam did not die immediately , the bible did not say he did , this is your understanding !

"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return." - Genesis 3:19

The above scripture shows us exactly when God pronounced death on the human race. Let us stick to scripture .

So God was speaking with tongue in cheek when He said the scriptures i quote below.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
God said IN THE DAY, frosbel said SOON AFTER. Frosbel says we should stick with scripture

There was an instant spiritual death/separation between Adam and God the day that Adam ate of that tree's fruit.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Image123:
i don't recall how i skipped this. So you are saying Jesus Christ only felt that God had forsaken Him. You are saying this based on what? If only you understood the crucifixion, then you would know that you just denied the very premise why Christ died FOR us. He suffered for us. Our separation, sin, judgement and co was on Him. He bore it all for us. He was forsaken so that we would never be forsaken and ashamed. He wasn't mincing words or deluded when He said and the Spirit of God recorded,

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


So God was speaking with tongue in cheek when He said the scriptures i quote below.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
God said IN THE DAY, frosbel said SOON AFTER. Frosbel says we should stick with scripture

There was an instant spiritual death/separation between Adam and God the day that Adam ate of that tree's fruit.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Read my other post.

Yes God and Adam were spiritually separated but this was never called death.

DEATH is called DEATH.

Adam eventually died which is the consequence of SIN.

The soul that sins shall die.

The wages of sin is death.

Read your bible Sir.

The problem stems from using the Jewish bible as your reference for everything.

Are you people trying to tell me that before the whites came with their bible 2 or 300 years ago, that we had no concept of the afterlife or what followed death etc?

Where is the AFRICAN explanation for what happens after death?

All I see above is Matthew Chapter this and Isaiah Chapter that.

IN FACT WE'RE JUST A COLONISED, LOST SET OF PEOPLE.

Tufiakwa (Spit)

ROSSIKE: The problem stems from using the Jewish bible as your reference for everything.

Are you people trying to tell me that before the whites came with their bible 2 or 300 years ago, that we had no concept of the afterlife or what followed death etc?

Where is the AFRICAN explanation for what happens after death?

All I see above is Matthew Chapter this and Isaiah Chapter that.

IN FACT WE'RE JUST A COLONISED, LOST SET OF PEOPLE.

Tufiakwa (Spit)

I totally agree with you!
In this forum I have learned about the great ignorance that (in general) have Africans about their culture, traditions and identity.
I imagine how hard it must be constantly seek references in transplanted cultures ... and ignore their own.
It is very sad to have to explain the muert and according to Matthew ... when the African people had a very clear philosophical concept about life and death.

I congratulate you on your excellent post.

Aiye (the world we live) is a market. Our true place is Orun. (Yoruba Proverb).

Aláafia.

Ptolomeus:



I totally agree with you!
In this forum I have learned about the great ignorance that (in general) have Africans about their culture, traditions and identity.
I imagine how hard it must be constantly seek references in transplanted cultures ... and ignore their own.
It is very sad to have to explain the muert and according to Matthew ... when the African people had a very clear philosophical concept about life and death.

I congratulate you on your excellent post.

Aiye (the world we live) is a market. Our true place is Orun. (Yoruba Proverb).

Aláafia.

I think we should be grateful that we are not living in mud huts today, chanting incantations to spirits, killing witches and child sacrifice, killing twins, slavery , voodoo etc etc

Not certain I am proud of the above !

frosbel:


Read my other post.

Yes God and Adam were spiritually separated but this was never called death.

DEATH is called DEATH.

Adam eventually died which is the consequence of SIN.

The soul that sins shall die.

The wages of sin is death.

Read your bible Sir.

It was called death,
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Image123:
It was called death,
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ah okay , so he died twice right ?

Once Spiritually and one Physically ,

Show me bible verses to back this false theology.

The death sentence was pronounced but it took over 900 years before Adam returned to dust, the curse was death, dust to dust, stop taking scripture out of context and adding what is not there - thanks.

"dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return "

frosbel: I am becoming more and more convinced that this doctrine of the human soul living forever in everlasting torment just does not add up.

Romans 6:23
King James Version (KJV)
"23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him." - Ezekiel 18:20

Romans 5:12
"Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned:"
The soul that sins shall die.

James 1:15 "Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

But yet, we are told by not a few Christians, that the soul will not die but live forever in everlasting flames.

To achieve this , they explain that death means seperation from GDO even though this is not mentioned anywhere in the bible. Death simply means Death.

Two types of death :

1. Physical - Curse on humanity after the initial fall

2. Spiritual - final death after the rejection of GOD's mercy and the spurning of his LOVE.


Physical Death is not separation from God at the physical death because sinners and believers experience this first phase.

Spiritual death is the destruction of the soul of man, since the bible says that the soul that sins it shall die, die it will. To suggest otherwise is actually twisting scripture or wresting bible verses to match up with our opinion on a matter.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

Here it explicitly mentions that the soul and body will be destroyed in hell, yet we are told destruction does not mean ruin or utter waste as the dictionary explains , instead it means seperation.

Let us discuss this topic using scripture , not human imagination to analyse the issues.

Thank You

"Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart" (Ephesians 4:18 The Evidence Bible).

Talking about death. When God said Adam would die the day that he eat out of the forbidden fruit, he actually did die that very day. He died spiritually as image123 has said. The moment Adam disobeyed God he became "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1).

You quoted Ezekiel 18:20 it practically repeats what it says in verse 4

"The soul that sins, it shall die" and this is because we are born spiritually dead that Jesus Christ came to give us spiritual life (John 5;40; 10:10; 14:6 and so on).

This is the more reason Jesus told Nicodemus and by extenstion us, that we should be born again (John 3:3).

We know that when we repent of our sins and believe in Jesus Christ, we "pass from death to life" (John 5:24; Romans 6:13; 1 John 3:14).

Ian Thomas put it like this, and I quote:

"We are born dead in trespasses and sins, alienated, cut off, detached from the life of God. The day that man believed the devil's lie (which is sin), he forfeited the life that distinguished him from the animal kingdom - the life of God. When sin came in, the life went out"

God is the only employer who would allow His employee to continue working after he's been fired. Have you ever heard of the walking dead?

frosbel:


I think we should be grateful that we are not living in mud huts today

You are the epitome of colonised foolishness to equate African religion and philosophy with ''mud huts''. You also need to read up on your African history, and realise that African religion in wealthy ancient societies like Nubia, Kerma, Kush, and Egypt was operated in grand temples, and therefore cannot be defined strictly by the relatively simple lifestyles of latter periods in West Africa. Nothing stops African religionists today from erecting sturdy temples like their ancestors did thousands of years ago. Problem could be wealth, and wealth does not equate to divinity.

chanting incantations to spirits

How is this worse than chanting incantations to a non-existent Jewish flying saviour from European myth? Or dead virgin mothers?

killing witches

It is christians who kill 'witches'.

child sacrifice, killing twins

Christians are the biggest killers on earth today. George W Bush claimed the christian god asked him to slaughter 2 million Iraqi men, women and children. Hitler was supported by Catholic bishops who met and prayed with him. The Christian church supported and orchestrated the massacre of hundreds of millions of people throughout its history (see the Inquisitions and Crusades). If you are going to criticise African religion for some of its deviant behaviour, you need to do likewise with christianity for its FAR MORE PROFOUND violations across the world.

slavery

Christians on slave ships armed with cannon came in droves to Africa to seize Africans as slaves. Many communities which resisted these christians were razed to the ground and their kings slaughtered by the christians. This sent a message to other kingdoms to co-operate with the christian enslavers. Christians tortured and mistreated those African slaves in America and the Caribbean for centuries, and treated them worse than cattle. In Africa slaves were treated far more humanely, and could even marry into the families of their owners. So it was christian barbarism that gave slavery its nasty reputation, not African religion.

voodoo

What is wrong with 'voodoo'? Don't criticise what you don't understand. I have deep reservations about occult christian practices as well, such as ritual cannibalism - eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus etc etc, all derived from pagan rites and practices.

Not certain I am proud of the above !

Your problem is you're an ignorant, brainwashed drone, like the majority of your colonised christian countrymen.

What you need to do is shed your wilful ignorance, go online, and learn the fundamentals of African religion and philosophy, since you haven't a clue, apart from the caricature of it embedded in your head by colonialists.

frosbel:


I think we should be grateful that we are not living in mud huts today, chanting incantations to spirits, killing witches and child sacrifice, killing twins, slavery , voodoo etc etc

Not certain I am proud of the above !

Frosbel:
You are grateful, and I am very happy to me.
You are grateful for not living in mud huts ...
You are grateful to live in a continent that has the highest death rate from starvation in the world, the highest rate of AIDS patients, the lowest level of health of the world's largest number of child deaths, the highest level of poverty world .... Thankful frosbel ... is the legacy left by those who he was given his beautiful religion.
You are who sings incantations to spirits ... a spirit who died hanging on a cross, humiliated, and begging his father for help. You belong to a religion Spiritist frosbel ... let you talk nonsense.
You talk about the killing of witches, frosbel, I'll tell you something, to illuminate a little your ignorance. Witchcraft has its origins in Europe, not in Africa. The witch hunt was conducted by just colleagues, frosbel, yes, Christians established the Inquisition, which burned with women (even pregnant) and subjecting innocent men ... the most terrible torture. These are the hunters of whitches frosbel!
You talk about slavery? What slavery, frosbel? Slavery brought to Africa the Islamic and Christian? Frosbel you know that in times of slavery, Christians supported the slave trade on the grounds that BLACKS HAD NO SOUL? ! Frosbel, Congratulations! You do not live in mud hut ... but according to Christians, their ancestors were animals! I guess that's why you are thankful frosbel!

You say that twins are killed? know frosbel? This shows his utter ignorance.
You should stop reading your stupid Bible and learn something general culture.
For the Yoruba, the birth of twins was a blessing ... a message of prosperity for the family! you understand that you tried to offend, but you did nothing more than a fool?
What can you talk about voodoo? Yes, you are an absolute ignorant of history and African traditions.
Frosbel ... dragging his shackles, but do it with dignity.
You have chosen to be a submissive slave, that's a matter of choice ...
But understand that to offend in the first place must be moral level, and secondly, we must have some knowledge. You absolutely devoid of both.
Study, learn, go back to school ... life is not limited to that book of fables called "bible"
And do not get angry with me ... you asked for it.
Learn you Education when you do, we can talk.

Ptolomeus:

Frosbel:
You are grateful, and I am very happy to me.
You are grateful for not living in mud huts .

And should I not be

You are grateful to live in a continent that has the highest death rate from starvation in the world, the highest rate of AIDS patients, the lowest level of health of the world's largest number of child deaths, the highest level of poverty world .... Thankful frosbel ... is the legacy left by those who he was given his beautiful religion.

Aha , so all the above is caused by religion , right ?

Shocking logic.

You are who sings incantations to spirits ... a spirit who died hanging on a cross, humiliated, and begging his father for help. You belong to a religion Spiritist frosbel ... let you talk nonsense.

Nope, I pray in English to my GOD through his SON Christ Jesus, the one at whose name you and your godless folk will bow down to ,and kiss his feet for better or for worse in the not so distant future.

You talk about the killing of witches, frosbel, I'll tell you something, to illuminate a little your ignorance. Witchcraft has its origins in Europe, not in Africa. The witch hunt was conducted by just colleagues, frosbel, yes, Christians established the Inquisition, which burned with women (even pregnant) and subjecting innocent men ... the most terrible torture. These are the hunters of whitches frosbel!

Don't be silly , there was witchcraft in Europe eons ago not today, we are talking about centuries ago right ?


How proud we are to be living in the middle ages in the 21st century because the white man did it 100s of years ago.

Besides , the cruel oppression by the catholic church in the form of the crusades and inquisitions had nothing to do with Christ.

Obviously your intense hatred for GOD will blind your eyes to this historical truth.

So don't drag Christ into your speculations and myths.

You talk about slavery? What slavery, frosbel? Slavery brought to Africa the Islamic and Christian? Frosbel you know that in times of slavery, Christians supported the slave trade on the grounds that BLACKS HAD NO SOUL? ! Frosbel, Congratulations! You do not live in mud hut ... but according to Christians, their ancestors were animals! I guess that's why you are thankful frosbel!

Blacks were 100% complicit in the selling of their own people, this is a historical fact.

And then it was your Muslim brothers, castrating and selling off millions of black men ,of which 70% died en-route the desert.

Lastly, those who practised slavery with such brutal methods had no support from the Bible or Christ.

You say that twins are killed? know frosbel? This shows his utter ignorance.
You should stop reading your stupid Bible and learn something general culture.
For the Yoruba, the birth of twins was a blessing ... a message of prosperity for the family! you understand that you tried to offend, but you did nothing more than a fool?

The killing of twins was a practise in Africa, some parts , and which was abolished after the intervention of missionaries.

What can you talk about voodoo? Yes, you are an absolute ignorant of history and African traditions.
Frosbel ... dragging his shackles, but do it with dignity.
You have chosen to be a submissive slave, that's a matter of choice ...

I am a slave to Christ and righteousness.

But understand that to offend in the first place must be moral level, and secondly, we must have some knowledge. You absolutely devoid of both.
[quote] Study, learn, go back to school ... life is not limited to that book of fables called "bible"
And do not get angry with me ... you asked for it.
Learn you Education when you do, we can talk.

I have been to school , at all levels, up to Postgraduate, so not sure what you mean by school, or do you mean the school of African ancient tradition, no Sir.

I left all that nonsense superstitious rubbish behind a long time ago

frosbel:

1. And should I not be




2. Aha , so all the above is caused by religion , right ?

Shocking logic.





3. Nope, I pray in English to my GOD through his SON Christ Jesus, the one at whose name you and your godless folk will bow down to ,and kiss his feet for better or for worse in the not so distant future.



4. Don't be silly , there was witchcraft in Europe eons ago not today, we are talking about centuries ago right ?


How proud we are to be living in the middle ages in the 21st century because the white man did it 100s of years ago.

Besides , the cruel oppression by the catholic church in the form of the crusades and inquisitions had nothing to do with Christ.

Obviously your intense hatred for GOD will blind your eyes to this historical truth.

So don't drag Christ into your speculations and myths.




5. Blacks were 100% complicit in the selling of their own people, this is a historical fact.

And then it was your Muslim brothers, castrating and selling off millions of black men ,of which 70% died en-route the desert.

Lastly, those who practised slavery with such brutal methods had no support from the Bible or Christ.



6. The killing of twins was a practise in Africa, some parts , and which was abolished after the intervention of missionaries.



7. I am a slave to Christ and righteousness.

8. I have been to school , at all levels, up to Postgraduate, so not sure what you mean by school, or do you mean the school of African ancient tradition, no Sir.

I left all that nonsense superstitious rubbish behind a long time ago

1. You can be proud of not living in mud huts. But you should be ashamed of other things much worse.

2. You are proud of not living in mud huts, but fails to recognize explicitly that their God, and his "beloved Europe" they left a gift to Africa the highest rate of infant death in the world, as many infected with AIDS worldwide , the highest rate of deaths from starvation ... BREAKTHROUGH THAT BROUGHT THIS GOD! You are proud of that, too, I suppose.

3. I am not a "godless." Do not be so ignorant and so stupid. I do not bow to false gods, strange gods before those who chained Africa and brainwashed fools like you. You pray in English, because it is the language of their masters. You do not have another language, or another identity, but the English do not accept you as the English ... You admire them, but for them you just a little black of Africa. You deal instead.

4. The Catholic Church has nothing to do with Christ? That statement is pathetic!
fosbel ... you must have some mental problem right?
You want me to go blind? Mhhh that ugly ... Then you into a witch! You are willing to evils ... that you should be a sin! Black Magic! Well, Pentecostals and the absence of doctrine have much similarity in their rituals with witchcraft. It is almost the same. I actually wish him well for you!. For example, one day you stop being a slave ... And my God died not hung like a pig, I'm sure I will grant that wish, and you will be free!

5. Do not be so ignorant. Read about history! The Catholic Church supported and encouraged the slave trade. The Bible supports thousands of tickets to slavery. Just remind him to David, the adulterer who impregnated his slave.

6. Its assessment is partial and biased. Do not talk about what you do not know.
At least you had the decency to make clear you do not know the African reality, but a few isolated stories. Study.

7. No. You are a slave to his bigotry and ignorance as well as their European masters.

8. Did you graduate? Hahahahaha! (sorry) there are two possibilities:
a) In Nigeria the post-graduate given away or raffled as Nigeria the lottery.
b) Your graduate is in ignorance.

Be kind frosbel ... let disrespect you with nonsense.
You is evident from their ignorance ... kiss the shoes of your masters, but do not try to develop unfamiliar topics.
You will do better.
I wish that one day, you know the freedom and enjoy walking without shackles made ​​in England.

Ptolomeus:

1. You can be proud of not living in mud huts. But you should be ashamed of other things much worse.

2. You are proud of not living in mud huts, but fails to recognize explicitly that their God, and his "beloved Europe" they left a gift to Africa the highest rate of infant death in the world, as many infected with AIDS worldwide , the highest rate of deaths from starvation ... BREAKTHROUGH THAT BROUGHT THIS GOD! You are proud of that, too, I suppose.

3. I am not a "godless." Do not be so ignorant and so stupid. I do not bow to false gods, strange gods before those who chained Africa and brainwashed fools like you. You pray in English, because it is the language of their masters. You do not have another language, or another identity, but the English do not accept you as the English ... You admire them, but for them you just a little black of Africa. You deal instead.

4. The Catholic Church has nothing to do with Christ? That statement is pathetic!
fosbel ... you must have some mental problem right?
You want me to go blind? Mhhh that ugly ... Then you into a witch! You are willing to evils ... that you should be a sin! Black Magic! Well, Pentecostals and the absence of doctrine have much similarity in their rituals with witchcraft. It is almost the same. I actually wish him well for you!. For example, one day you stop being a slave ... And my God died not hung like a pig, I'm sure I will grant that wish, and you will be free!

5. Do not be so ignorant. Read about history! The Catholic Church supported and encouraged the slave trade. The Bible supports thousands of tickets to slavery. Just remind him to David, the adulterer who impregnated his slave.

6. Its assessment is partial and biased. Do not talk about what you do not know.
At least you had the decency to make clear you do not know the African reality, but a few isolated stories. Study.

7. No. You are a slave to his bigotry and ignorance as well as their European masters.

8. Did you graduate? Hahahahaha! (sorry) there are two possibilities:
a) In Nigeria the post-graduate given away or raffled as Nigeria the lottery.
b) Your graduate is in ignorance.

Be kind frosbel ... let disrespect you with nonsense.
You is evident from their ignorance ... kiss the shoes of your masters, but do not try to develop unfamiliar topics.
You will do better.
I wish that one day, you know the freedom and enjoy walking without shackles made ​​in England.

Okay , I understand your rage.

Let me leave you in peace.

frosbel:

Okay , I understand your rage.

Let me leave you in peace.

Frosbel.
Believe me I do not need their peace: I have mine.
You need to open threads denigrating those who think differently from you, you talk about things you do not know, invent situations that do not exist you defend slavery until the intervention of the Catholics, you close your eyes to the plight of Africa and you criticize in the past in Africa lived in mud huts.
In my country also lived in mud huts ... but that Christianity did not change but the job ...
I have no anger at all, simply that I do not support religious fanaticism, which seeks to show how good it really is a disaster. Africa 400 years ago may have had deficiencies ... but today, in the XXI century, let me tell you, the gaps are much larger in comparison.
Believe me ... frosbel I have nothing against you. What's more, I assure you that I appreciate, because you are not a malicious person, I just think that you look at the world with colorful glass lenses, and that does not let you see the different shades.
Believe me I appreciate it.
A hug.