I have had debates with Tbaba and LagosShia about the freedom of speech under Islam. They took the side that says that blasphemy laws are right and religions should be protected from anything deemed offensive. I believe that is a slippery slope and religion should be open to criticism and satire just like any other thing as long as it is not promoting bigotry against believers.


At last, there are muslims siding with me. The Tunisian art riots showed that. An art exhibition deemed "unislamic" and offensive caused a riot in which one life was lost. Thank Allah that the artists were mostly muslim Tunisians (because if it were non-muslim westerners, they would say that Westerners are islamophobic bigots). There was an image of a veiled woman in stones (signifying the stoning of women) and another with "Sobhan Allah" written with termites.

The point is that there are muslims who see the value of freedom of speech/expression contrary to what LagosShia and Tbaba think about censorship in Islam. Tunisia apparently has a secular muslim middleclass and a conservatibe minority which are clashing.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/06/27/us-tunisia-artists-islam-idUKBRE85Q0XE20120627



[img]http://s3.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20120627&t=2&i=623729655&w=&fh=&fw=&ll=700&pl=300&r=2012-06-27T142758Z_1_CBRE85Q146P00_RTROPTP_0_TUNISIA-ARTISTS-ISLAM[/img]

you have a problem Mr.logicboy.or rather you lack common sense.

how did you conclude that myself and tbaba represent or are represented by those going against art? and how do you conclude those muslims against art are the ones representing islam and those muslims who are for art and themselves artists are against islam? how do you even associate blashphemy and art?

it is the normal "every bad muslim represents islam" syndrome while good muslims do not,that you are displaying here.and that is wrong.

this fight against art by the salafists aka wahhabis in tunisia is no different from the other ridiculous actions taken by their salafi brothers in egypt.i myself have opened threads to oppose and expose them.take for instance "tomatoes are christian and muslims should not eat them":

https://www.nairaland.com/976055/tomatoes-christian-egyptian-salafist-group

it is sad that the majority of tunisians and egyptians being mainstream sunnis did not know the bad side of salafism aka wahhabism.they will get to know during their tenure in power after they won large in elections after the revolutions in those two countries.

LagosShia: you have a problem Mr.logicboy.or rather you lack common sense.

how did you conclude that myself and tbaba represent or are represented by those going against art? and how do you conclude those muslims against art are the ones representing islam and those muslims who are for art and themselves artists are against islam? how do you even associate blashphemy and art?

it is the normal "every bad muslim represents islam" syndrome while good muslims do not,that you are displaying here.and that is wrong.

this fight against art by the salafists aka wahhabis in tunisia is no different from the other ridiculous actions taken by their salafi brothers in egypt.i myself have opened threads to oppose and expose them.take for instance "tomatoes are christian and muslims should not eat them":

https://www.nairaland.com/976055/tomatoes-christian-egyptian-salafist-group

it is sad that the majority of tunisians and egyptians being mainstream sunnis did not know the bad side of salafism aka wahhabism.they will get to know during their tenure in power after they won large in elections after the revolutions in those two countries.

You are not a Salafist, of course. The only difference between you and the Salafists in this particular case is the use of violence. Both you and the Salafist are in agreement with censorship of anything deemed to be offensive to Islam. You are not for freedom of speech.


As for the tomatoes, I had a good laugh. However, how is a non-muslim to know the difference between Salafists and Shia? At least, in christianity, mormons and fundamentalists can not overshadow the mainstream christianity. Why is it the opposite in islam; the extremist Salafists get their voices heard over other moderate muslims?

Cheers01:


You are not a Salafist, of course. The only difference between you and the Salafists in this particular case is the use of violence. Both you and the Salafist are in agreement with censorship of anything deemed to be offensive to Islam. You are not for freedom of speech.

i am for freedom of speech within the limit of respect.

also,who determines what is offensive to Islam? is eating tomatoes and art offensive?i think the line separating stupidity and reasoning is very clear for everyone to see.

As for the tomatoes, I had a good laugh. However, how is a non-muslim to know the difference between Salafists and Shia? At least, in christianity, mormons and fundamentalists can not overshadow the mainstream christianity. Why is it the opposite in islam; the extremist Salafists get their voices heard over other moderate muslims?

there are many reasons their voice is loud.i can think of the following:

1.) they blend themselves as Sunnis.and Sunnis after centuries of oppression and persecution of Shia Muslims by their caliphates in the middle east,are the majority.those belonging to the salafist movement itself within sunni islam are not up to 5%.

2.) violence.when lives and property are destroyed the effect is felt.

3.) saudi arabia.salafism known as wahhabism in saudi arabia,where the most holiest sites of Islam are.many people especially ignorant of Islam and political Islam see saudi arabia as the center of Islam.wahhabism,is the prevailing sect there and the about 25% Shia Muslims (found mainly in the holy city of Madinah and the eastern region) are oppressed.so they use this to abuse Islam and present themselves as the face of Islam.

4.) saudi money.alot of money is spent to propagate wahhabism in the guise of sunnism.they easily fool people with that in particular unsuspecting sunnis.their books are full of lies and hatred against Shia Muslims and non-muslims.they also spread violent ideas.idle sunni youths and poverty stricken fall prey for the deceitful wahhabi ideology which is extremist in nature and presents itself as "puritanical".in fact upon reasoning you see that they are extremists and what they preach has nothing to do with Islam and the Quran.such ideology appeals to youths with high adrenaline level.

LagosShia:
i am for freedom of speech within the limit of respect.

also,who determines what is offensive to Islam? is eating tomatoes and art offensive?i think the line separating stupidity and reasoning is very clear for everyone to see.


there are many reasons their voice is loud.i can think of the following:

1.) they blend themselves as Sunnis.and Sunnis after centuries of oppression and persecution of Shia Muslims by their caliphates in the middle east,are the majority.those belonging to the salafist movement itself within sunni islam are not up to 5%.

2.) violence.when lives and property are destroyed the effect is felt.

3.) saudi arabia.salafism known as wahhabism in saudi arabia,where the most holiest sites of Islam are.many people especially ignorant of Islam and political Islam see saudi arabia as the center of Islam.wahhabism,is the prevailing sect there and the about 25% Shia Muslims (found mainly in the holy city of Madinah and the eastern region) are oppressed.so they use this to abuse Islam and present themselves as the face of Islam.

4.) saudi money.alot of money is spent to propagate wahhabism in the guise of sunnism.they easily fool people with that in particular unsuspecting sunnis.their books are full of lies and hatred against Shia Muslims and non-muslims.they also spread violent ideas.idle sunni youths and poverty stricken fall prey for the deceitful wahhabi ideology which is extremist in nature and presents itself as "puritanical".in fact upon reasoning you see that they are extremists and what they preach has nothing to do with Islam and the Quran.such ideology appeals to youths with high adrenaline level.

Okay, I'm sorry for comparing you to the Salafists. I doesnt change the fact that you want limits to free speech when slam is concerned


As for the Sunni, Wahhabists and Salafists, wouldnt they say the same against you that you are funded by Iran to preach hate?

Cheers01:



Okay, I'm sorry for comparing you to the Salafists. I doesnt change the fact that you want limits to free speech when slam is concerned


As for the Sunni, Wahhabists and Salafists, wouldnt they say the same against you that you are funded by Iran to preach hate?

salafists are called "wahhabis" when they are from saudi arabia.but outside saudi,they are salafists.it is a movement within sunnism.

if they say the same about us,then they should be ready to present evidence.

as for me,i do not just say.even in this forum we have much evidence (both from their texts/words and actions) to make our case:

ACTIONS:
https://www.nairaland.com/961495/timeline-sectarian-terrorism-against-shia

WORDS:
https://www.nairaland.com/954767/honour-muslims-lost-lives-dana/4#11105070

https://www.nairaland.com/659269/thoughts-death-osama-bin-laden#8259061

LagosShia:

salafists are called "wahhabis" when they are from saudi arabia.but outside saudi,they are salafists.it is a movement within sunnism.

if they say the same about us,then they should be ready to present evidence.

as for me,i do not just say.even in this forum we have much evidence (both from their texts/words and actions) to make our case:

ACTIONS:
https://www.nairaland.com/961495/timeline-sectarian-terrorism-against-shia

WORDS:
https://www.nairaland.com/954767/honour-muslims-lost-lives-dana/4#11105070

https://www.nairaland.com/659269/thoughts-death-osama-bin-laden#8259061

Unfortunately, it is you muslims that have to solve your divisions. Nothing a non-muslim can do

Cheers01:


Unfortunately, it is you muslims that have to solve your divisions. Nothing a non-muslim can do

na wa for you o.

you asked a question and when you got the reply you talk as if you're invited as peace mediator.

LagosShia:

na wa for you o.

you asked a question and when you got the reply you talk as if you're invited as peace mediator.

Okay, what do you want me to do with your Salafist and Wahabbist beef? Like I even know the difference.


Or should I start a new Islam called Logicalist Islam or something?

Cheers01:


Okay, what do you want me to do with your Salafist and Wahabbist beef? Like I even know the difference.


Or should I start a new Islam called Logicalist Islam or something?

i dont want you to do anything.and i dont ask you to do anything.

LagosShia:

i dont want you to do anything.and i dont ask you to do anything.

So, you wouldnt be bothered if I become a Salafist? lololol


Just kidding

Cheers01:


So, you wouldnt be bothered if I become a Salafist? lololol


Just kidding

you're free.but just don't harm anyone.

this is a gift to you:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaQGsZ78HYk

LagosShia:

you're free.but just don't harm anyone.

this is a gift to you:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaQGsZ78HYk

Did you listen to that guy? He congratulates atheists for taking a step away from indoctrination and saying that there is no God. However, your muslim debater fails to see that the story of Adam and Eve in the Quran is just as wrong.

Cheers01:
Did you listen to that guy? He congratulates atheists for taking a step away from indoctrination and saying that there is no God. However, your muslim debater fails to see that the story of Adam and Eve in the Quran is just as wrong.

he congratulates you because the Muslim starts his belief by reciting LA ILAHA (there is no god ).and then the Muslim goes on to say ILALLAH.(except Allah).that forms the shahada (testimony of faith for Muslims).

now when you compare the story of Adam and Eve in the Holy Quran and that in the bible,your brains would open up by force even if you dont want them to open.if you do not mind,i can present to you lectures on Adam and Eve.you just need to spare about 3 hours.if you want them,i'd present them to you.

LagosShia:

he congratulates you because the Muslim starts his belief by reciting LA ILAHA (there is no god ).and then the Muslim goes on to say ILALLAH.(except Allah).that forms the shahada (testimony of faith for Muslims).

now when you compare the story of Adam and Eve in the Holy Quran and that in the bible,your brains would open up by force even if you dont want them to open.if you do not mind,i can present to you lectures on Adam and Eve.you just need to spare about 3 hours.if you want them,i'd present them to you.

Why would I need 3 hours for a story that I know most of it from heart? Just give me a summary.

Cheers01:

Why would I need 3 hours for a story that I know most of it from heart? Just give me a summary.

i dont think you know it from heart.i watched those lectures years back.and i would prefer you do likewise and watch them.

you spend many hours on nairaland.so why do you hesitate to spend little time to understand what others say? besides,i am not a scholar.if you watch those lectures,you hear from the mouth of our scholar-a Shia scholar and university of Columbia professor and a new york based enterpreneur.

LagosShia:

i dont think you know it from heart.i watched those lectures years back.and i would prefer you do likewise and watch them.

you spend many hours on nairaland.so why do you hesitate to spend little time to understand what others say? besides,i am not a scholar.if you watch those lectures,you hear from the mouth of our scholar-a Shia scholar and university of Columbia professor and a new york based enterpreneur.

Your muslim debater summarized it- an atheist doesnt accept the quran and so no argument can help you with a true atheist on Islam. Adam and Eve were not the first humans on earth because humans were not created.


I think emofine might enjoy your sermons but not me

for those who care to watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAUj2hwEa_I


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0bYB6pb_2s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXuuNBIl31E

LagosShia: for those who care to watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAUj2hwEa_I


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0bYB6pb_2s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXuuNBIl31E

I dont listen to men in cheap suits.